Bioware AUSTIN has some PR issues right now.

[Ansalem]

In fairness.. neither does Ansalems.... who counts multiple posts by the same person as unique complaints in his count.

 

This back and forth epeen on sizing of complaints is pointless.

 

by all means goto the multiple threads and count up unique posts and I bet you find majority are upset

[Andryah]

by all means goto the multiple threads and count up unique posts and I bet you find majority are upset

 

Astonishing.. complaint threads dominated by complaints. Because complaints are all that counts.. and all other content in the forum is to be ignored.

 

Come on dude.. even you don't believe you. You are just using conflation to promote your justification for being upset. You don't need a faux crowd behind you for this.. just man up and stand for your beliefs.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Andryah

[Benfynyn]

On the plus side they now know that the work week ends on a Friday.

 

Baby steps.

[thecoffeecup]

I am not really heavily invested in the ongoing balance discussions, but I also thought the replies were condescending at least in some places. In fact, I'm finding it quite hard *not* to notice.

[Ansalem]

Astonishing.. complaint threads dominated by complaints. Because complaints are all that counts.. and all other content in the forum is to be ignored.

 

Come on dude.. even you don't believe you. You are just using conflation to promote your justification for being upset. You don't need a faux crowd behind you for this.. just man up and stand for your beliefs.

 

nice attempt at deflection. Facts are there go look. And the community is more than justified for being upset over this debacle. We got 1 comment from courtney that was dismissive and now an almost apology as it was just an apology about the delay...maybe BW will get it right on the third time and actually apologize for the crapstorm they caused over the weekend

[AlyxDinas]

This back and forth epeen on sizing of complaints is pointless.

 

Completely agreed.

[Icebergy]

nice attempt at deflection. Facts are there go look. And the community is more than justified for being upset over this debacle. We got 1 comment from courtney that was dismissive and now an almost apology as it was just an apology about the delay...maybe BW will get it right on the third time and actually apologize for the crapstorm they caused over the weekend

 

They did not cause it. There is never any excuse to throw temper tantrums if you are older than age 10.

 

You are welcome to voice your disagreement with their opinions and/or the tone of their opinions all you want, just do it in an adult manner.

[Yestreen]

Eric and Courtney:

 

I hope you take what we are saying and turn it into something actionable and visible. Here are some things I recommend you do from here on out:

 

1. Perform minor class balance changes every 2 weeks instead of major class balance changes every 6 months. Perfect balance is impossible to achieve, but making minor, calculated steps in the right direction seems a better way to approach this complex problem.
   
2. Use the Class Representatative threads as a tool. There are a lot of very good suggestions made by a very knowledgeable playerbase. We can work as a team to move forward, together, in the right direction.
   
3. You need to re-consider the value you assign to the ability of hybrid classes to self-heal (sorcs/sages) and use ranged abilities (pt/vanguards). While your metrics may indicate they are useful, our in-game experiences do not.
   
4. On that note, I suggest you and your development/combat team read a book called "Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking" by Malcolm Gladwell. Among other things, it highlights the limitations of metrics and the importance of experience and ovservations and the decision-making process. I think you should employ this approach more when you decide how to do class balance.
   

 

I have stuck around for PVP in this game because I love the class designs at a high level and I love the tanking mechanic. However, Bioware needs to re-consider their approach to this game from here on out if they still want to have a PVP community 6 months from now.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Yestreen

[WillHolmes]

uh guys L2P and heal to full, conversation over, good day

[Andryah]

They did not cause it. There is never any excuse to throw temper tantrums if you are older than age 10.

 

You are welcome to voice your disagreement with their opinions and/or the tone of their opinions all you want, just do it in an adult manner.

 

/Agree.

nice attempt at deflection. Facts are there go look. And the community is more than justified for being upset over this debacle. We got 1 comment from courtney that was dismissive and now an almost apology as it was just an apology about the delay...maybe BW will get it right on the third time and actually apologize for the crapstorm they caused over the weekend

 

1) You are not the spokesperson for the community, so stop that nonsense IMO. Speak for yourself.

2) SWTOR and the Devs have been "dead to you" for the better part of a year.. and you continually threaten to quit. So what exactly is your point here? That you are unhappy with this game? We already knew that.

3) Deflection is your expertise, not mine. I don't need, or use, a faux crowd to justify my comments in the forum. I encourage you to do follow my lead, though I understand it will be all in a negative format.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Andryah

[EricMusco]

Eric and Courtney:

 

I hope you take what we are saying and turn it into something actionable and visible. Here are some things I recommend you do from here on out:

 

1. Perform minor class balance changes every 2 weeks instead of major class balance changes every 6 months. Perfect balance is impossible to achieve, but making minor, calculated steps in the right direction seems a better way to approach this complex problem.
   
2. Use the Class Representatative threads as a tool. There are a lot of very good suggestions made by a very knowledgeable playerbase. We can work as a team to move forward, together, in the right direction.
   
3. You need to re-consider the value you assign to the ability of hybrid classes to self-heal (sorcs/sages) and use ranged abilities (pt/vanguards). While your metrics may indicate they are useful, our in-game experiences do not.
   
4. On that note, I suggest you and your development/combat team read a book called "Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking" by Malcolm Gladwell. Among other things, it highlights the limitations of metrics and the importance of experience in ovservations and the decision-making process. I think you should employ this approach more when you decide how to do class balance.
   

 

I have stuck around for PVP in this game because I love the class designs at a high level and I love the tanking mechanic. However, Bioware needs to re-consider their approach to this game from here on out if they still want to have a PVP community 6 months from now.

 

Hey Yestreen,

 

I appreciate the suggestions. I can't really comment on 1, 3, and 4 as those are development and design things, although I can certainly point the Combat team to those bullets.

 

I can comment on 2. Although you may not have seen the impact yet, I can absolutely assure that your bullet for #2 was very much a motivational factor in starting the Class Rep system. I regularly pass very specific and very detailed feedback on to the devs from things we have learned within the Class Rep system. I know with the feedback loop you certainly don't see changes quickly, as is the nature of development, but rest assured that your feedback is being placed in the right hands.

 

-eric

[-IceHawk-]

Ansalem , please stop making me agree with Andryah. It feels dirty.

The dev's have taken note of the concerns and are moving on them.

 

@Musco & Courtney.

 

Kudos for jumping right into the middle of this mess, staying positive, and moving things along.

 

While others may not recall (or care to remember) how things used to work, but I think this is a definite improvement over the manner in which the Devs once engaged with the denizens of this particular Hive of Scum & Villainy we all call home.

Edited August 27, 2013 by -IceHawk-

[Yestreen]

Hey Yestreen,

 

I appreciate the suggestions. I can't really comment on 1, 3, and 4 as those are development and design things, although I can certainly point the Combat team to those bullets.

 

I can comment on 2. Although you may not have seen the impact yet, I can absolutely assure that your bullet for #2 was very much a motivational factor in starting the Class Rep system. I regularly pass very specific and very detailed feedback on to the devs from things we have learned within the Class Rep system. I know with the feedback loop you certainly don't see changes quickly, as is the nature of development, but rest assured that your feedback is being placed in the right hands.

 

-eric

 

One more suggestion: One metric you SHOULD look at is class representation in PVP. If a class/spec is not popular then chances are it is too weak relative to other classes/specs.

 

For example: I have not seen many DPS operatives/assassins/PT's lately, but I have seen a LOT of marauders and a fair amount of Juggs. That probably gives you some indication of how good each class is at melee dps.

 

You can do the same thing with tanks, ranged DPS and healers too. Once you split it up by role, it is obvious that there is a very strong correlation between class popularity and class balance.

[Ansalem]

So you expected them to work over the weekend instead of going home to their families just because you took a post as condescending?

 

They could have posted it earlier in the day and stuck around for the feedback before heading out something eric talked about in his response. And I wasn't the only one who felt that way about the post as evidenced by the multiple threads and 600+ posts on the subject.

[Ansalem]

I'm still wondering when we are going to get an actual apology for the original post...

[paowee]

IMO.... this thread embodies why Bioware made a mistake by instituting class representatives. While they made it clear the role and purpose of the reps... the populace of the forums lacks the maturity and the boundaries to respect that role and instead insists it be more then it is and then blames Bioware for not obliging that insistence.

 

I give them credit for reaching out and trying.. but this is an MMO community.. and MMO communities broadly speaking do not respect devs and have a heighted sense of entitlement with respect to the character classes they play.

QFT. The Sorc community / responses / reactions just proves this point. Unfortunately.

 

When someone makes a reasonable post, like this one, it just gets ignored and proceeds to drown in a sea of forum hating and flaming.

Edited August 27, 2013 by paowee

[Andryah]

1) I never claimed to be. I am voicing my thoughts like everyone else you just happen to disagree with me probably based around your signature where you say complaints attract your attention. I guess you are the one with the real problem.

2) Never stated that before today so once again you are wrong maybe you should update your stalker skills. And I do not continually threaten to quit. When I posted my unsub over the weekend I did indeed unsub time runs out jan 11th. The Dead to me comment is to display unsatisfactory service and lack of improvements with the game. I have finally lost all hope in the game after being around since beta.

3) Deflecting again are we? Its obvious by your signature where your encouragement comes from. You are simply a troll. Anytime you see a complaint you pounce on the poster to get a reaction out of them or troll them into silence.

 

So.. TL;DR you like my signature.

 

And... let's not pretend you don't dislike the game/devs (immensely) and use the /quit tactics as a passive aggressive instrument of your displeasure. Your forum post history says otherwise. Which is fine.. you get to express your opinions in a public forum.. and receive feedback opinion in kind.

 

I don't pounce btw.. that's your preferred method.

[paowee]

redit/swtor's perspective

 

[Ansalem]

So.. TL;DR you like my signature.

 

And... let's not pretend you don't dislike the game/devs (immensely) and use the /quit tactics as a passive aggressive instrument of your displeasure. Your forum post history says otherwise. Which is fine.. you get to express your opinions in a public forum.. and receive feedback opinion in kind.

 

I don't pounce btw.. that's your preferred method.

 

Deflected again...not surprised. I still do get some faint enjoyment out of the game and have been a strong supporter of it for some time. You obviously aren't reading all of my posts perhaps you should spend more time doing that instead of talking nonsense. Always trying to flip it back but failing to accomplish your goal. Keep trying.

And as for using unsubbing or /quit tactics as a passive aggressive instrument at displeasure are you kidding? Like seriously? If someone is displeased with something, they are going to express their displeasure, if there are no improvements do you really expect them to stick around? I don't pay a monthly sub to be condescended to by devs

[Andryah]

I'm still wondering when we are going to get an actual apology for the original post...

 

Wait.. what? You want an apology from HoboWithAStick for the original post of this thread?

 

Seriously.. what are they supposed to do.. apologize that YOU and some others got so offended by their response to questions? Really? please.. elaborate. Maybe you should write the apology for them.. and submit it.. you know.. to make sure they do it to your standards and requirements.

[Icebergy]

redit/swtor's perspective

 

 

[–]ADG12311990The Harbinger|The Gallifreyan Legacy 22 points 2 hours ago

 

I know I'm going to get some hate for posting this, but... the whining and entitlement in that thread is so painful to read. It's just a game. They really need to get their lives in perspective, and stop acting like whiny, little children. IF that is how most PVP-ers act, then I'm fine with being a PVE Carebear...

 

permalink

 

[–]LumberjStellaartois - Jedi Covenent 10 points 2 hours ago

 

I'm so with you. And getting tired of all the turds constantly posting "heal to full" over & over again....

 

permalink

parent

 

[–]RhombusAcheron<***> <Intrepid> | The Harbinger 5 points 1 hour ago

 

Its basically arrow to the knee. It was funny for like 10 minutes, and is already massively overplayed and unfunny.

 

 

AGREED!

[Ansalem]

redit/swtor's perspective

 

 

that's only showing comments based on the quote from today not the one from friday itself. But it does display both sides of it.

[MSchuyler]

I'm still wondering when we are going to get an actual apology for the original post...

 

You'd best get over it because you're not going to ever get one. The fact that you took offense at it is just insanely silly. They are not responsible for your over-reaction. You're not really that important and you certainly are not in charge. It kind of reminds me of my grandkid who wanted a second piece of birthday cake last weekend. I told her "No," and she got very angry, demanding an apology from me for telling her "No." She got neither a second piece of cake nor an apology.

[Andryah]

Deflected again

 

Irony.

 

Keep trying though.

[Ansalem]

Wait.. what? You want an apology from HoboWithAStick for the original post of this thread?

 

Seriously.. what are they supposed to do.. apologize that YOU and some others got so offended by their response to questions? Really? please.. elaborate. Maybe you should write the apology for them.. and submit it.. you know.. to make sure they do it to your standards and requirements.

 

Deflection again. Obviously an apology from the devs for the original post on friday which the original poster in this thread addresses. And if you don't know at this point what they need to apologize for then you never will. They owe the community as a whole an apology for the insulting nature of their responses to sorcs and vgs. An actual apology would go a long way in restoring the communities confidence in the devs. Not that 2nd dismissive comment courtney made and not the almost apology eric gave (he apologized for the delay in responding but not for the actual response on friday).

I guess I should explain how apologies work to you. When someone makes a mistake that upsets someone else and feels remorse and doesn't want to repeat the mistake they apologize to those that get upset. They say sorry for so and so it won't happen again and then they don't do it again.