Marauder class representative: Sample questions!

[CO_DAIGO]

I am going to opine on Annihilation a bit since it is my area of expertise.

 

When it comes to Annihilation build up. Every Warrior spec has a rotation that functions by going through damage priority until you get to filler (where resource is then rebuilt). Vengeance (and Jugg specs as a whole) have a lot of resource it can build off the start (they have 12 Rage by the time they leap in) while still having Sundering Assault so it can easily pay for its damage moves. Rage is a shared tree and as the name implies is swimming in Rage. The two real Marauder specs (Anni and Carnage) aren't able to stack Rage and deal with it in different ways. Carnage has moves that cost relatively little, so all of its burst is paid for in the initial Charge and BA. Annihilation uses a lot of rage in its usual rotation, but handles the opening by having stacks to slow down your damage abilities to ease focus generation in the opener.

 

You can't have Annihilation start at full stacks with no resource because its method of building resource is by holding back your rotation via Annihilator Stacks until your self-generated resource is able to keep up with the rage needed for your high damage attacks. The rotation goes:

 

Charge + DS > BA > Rupture > Annihilate > Ravage > Ravage contd. > Rupture (if procced)

 

If you have full stacks, at that point you have 1 rage point... and Annihilate is off cooldown. When Charge comes off CD, so does DS. You will have to delay your big hits simply because you can't afford them. Normally you have time to use other abilities as you wait for Annihilate, with full stacks you are stuck in an awkward rotation that doesn't flow well at all. So basically Annihilation is going to be a Sustained and buildup spec because it is designed exactly that way.

 

The best option I have been able to think of for Annihilation (besides redesigning the spec a_lot) is to keep Annihilate at a base 12 second CD, but change how stacks work. You can stack up to 2, but each reduces the CD by 3 seconds (so 12s Annihilate, then 9, then 6). That makes buildup significant but short, and keeping the flow of the rotation.

 

I the general idea and thrust of the PvE Question (it is a spec with the opposite of burst, little ability to fight kiting, and not great sustained) seems good, but we want to avoid making it seem like a qq question. I may help with wording of it a bit.

 

Good observation. I'm curious as to whether it would either balance the class in PVP or be overpowered to combine your suggestion with an uncleasable dot to deadly saber bleeds.

 

I suppose you could put it into the form of the question: Does the combat team have any plan to shorten the buildup of stacks and possibly add an uncleansable dot to ONE bleed affect? (rather than to them all)

 

I respect balance and without testing there would be no way for me to totally say that this wouldn't overpower the spec but while playing it and listening to others I think that would make the spec reasonably competitive in PVP instances. I'm sure there's plenty of area for debate on this subject alone...but just throwing more ideas out there

[countpopeula]

Good observation. I'm curious as to whether it would either balance the class in PVP or be overpowered to combine your suggestion with an uncleasable dot to deadly saber bleeds.

 

I suppose you could put it into the form of the question: Does the combat team have any plan to shorten the buildup of stacks and possibly add an uncleansable dot to ONE bleed affect? (rather than to them all)

 

I respect balance and without testing there would be no way for me to totally say that this wouldn't overpower the spec but while playing it and listening to others I think that would make the spec reasonably competitive in PVP instances. I'm sure there's plenty of area for debate on this subject alone...but just throwing more ideas out there

 

Anni will never be competitive in PvP because it has a ramp up time, period.

[Lafay]

Anni needs looked at real hard, pve is lackluster, pvp is horrid. It needs a strong PVP update, not a weak one.

It needs self heals back.

It needs either unstoppable (so you have a chance to ramp up) or a way to provide instant 4 stack of annhilator/6stack juyo.

It needs a removal of undying rage health reduction (I wish).

It needs uncleanseable dots.

 

Then, it will be competative, anything less and its already low sustained dps will not make up for the lack of burst that carnage and rage already have(had).

 

Carnage needs QOL improvement something like mercs and sorcs are seeing with some consistancy to its procs.

 

Rage needs to just change the shockwaves and autocrit to effect scream and leave smash alone. it will still have the aoe spec with the lower cooldowns on smash and extra aoe from the dominate.

 

Just my opinions... again

[Gudarzz]

So far, it seems like the concerns about undying rage AND smash are pretty equal.

 

Quick thought...how about a question that incorporates both the smash and undying rage nerfs: Does bioware believe that, given the undying rage and proposed smash changes, that marauder gameplay will lack competitive variability? Undying rage hurts anni self heals, rage will no longer serve as a top AOE spec, anni ramp up limits dps, etc...so this basically leaves carnage as the only "viable' choice. This will allow us to present our concerns surrounding both issues.

 

Again, this is just a very crude version. Thoughts?

[jack__]

Anni needs looked at real hard, pve is lackluster, pvp is horrid. It needs a strong PVP update, not a weak one.

It needs self heals back.

Agree completely.

It needs either unstoppable (so you have a chance to ramp up) or a way to provide instant 4 stack of annhilator/6stack juyo.

No, if you provide a method of instantly building stacks then you are basically removing them altogether, since once you are in combat they will stay up. Having less stacks that provide the same effect as suggested above is the best that the spec would get. Also on a thematic note, it would remove some of the flavour from the spec, making it lose its unique identity. Also, marauders will never get unstoppable ever and I hope they never do get it.

It needs a removal of undying rage health reduction (I wish).

That will never happen to such a strong cooldown, if the health reduction was removed (or even reverted to how it was before) the ability would see a significant nerf in another area.

It needs uncleanseable dots.

No class needs uncleanseable dots (I strongly disagree with madness having it, and a madness Sorc is what I play most in pvp), it is lazy design and smarter solutions should be found without nerfing some of the utility of the healer classes.

 

Then, it will be competative, anything less and its already low sustained dps will not make up for the lack of burst that carnage and rage already have(had).

I do agree that the spec needs a slight damage buff.

 

Carnage needs QOL improvement something like mercs and sorcs are seeing with some consistancy to its procs.

If bioware could make the spec more consistent without removing the identity of the spec, then that would be amazing.

 

Rage needs to just change the shockwaves and autocrit to effect scream and leave smash alone. it will still have the aoe spec with the lower cooldowns on smash and extra aoe from the dominate.

Rage needs a nerf to control and a buff to its sustained damage (its burst is already godly).

 

Just my opinions... again

 

5char

Edited February 27, 2014 by jack__

[Lafay]

So far, it seems like the concerns about undying rage AND smash are pretty equal.

 

Quick thought...how about a question that incorporates both the smash and undying rage nerfs: Does bioware believe that, given the undying rage and proposed smash changes, that marauder gameplay will lack competitive variability? Undying rage hurts anni self heals, rage will no longer serve as a top AOE spec, anni ramp up limits dps, etc...so this basically leaves carnage as the only "viable' choice. This will allow us to present our concerns surrounding both issues.

 

Again, this is just a very crude version. Thoughts?

Yea sounds good, question why patch after patch, in the last year, anni and rage have been nerfed a little at a time with out any balance in other areas.

 

Is it because of metrics? Because people like to play with lightsabers in a star wars game? durrrr. Ask them this, "Anni has not seen a buff since 2.0 and has sucked in pvp since before that, why are your devs ignorant like that?" lol seriously candy will bring people out of the rage spec, not nerfs. Candy up the anni tree and leave rage alone...BAM 50% less smashers! Everybody is happy! It worked for rage jugs (vengence buff), it will work for rage marauders

Edited February 27, 2014 by Lafay

[Lafay]

5char

 

Do you have some ideas? I took note that BW loves to steal AC specific ability's and thought since they like making all the classes the same, why not give mara unstoppable!

 

On a more serious note, I agree, we need something original and strong that is cohesive with the anni spec to fix it. Something to increase its dps another 5-10%. Something to help its slow ramp up time be faster or to guarantee it. How about make bleeds prevent escapes like electronet or on the other hand, make bleeds prevent the person bleeding from the use of stuns/mezes/gernades/roots. Like a reverse hunkerdown lol. That will give the measly sustained dps a chance to ramp up.

 

With snipers getting a 3-5 second get outa jail free card every 1 min, an array of cc/roots/stuns/slows/rolls/30meter range, a mara of any kind will be hard pressed to ever kill one. Ops can shank us to within inches of our lives before we get a chance to react. Pyro powertechs can kite a mara like no ones buisness. Lets not forget to mention the buffs to sorcs and mercs. Lets not let this turn into a mara reroll nerf. You cant just gut the cor mechanics of rage, leave anni in its horrible state and expect every mara just to be content with carnage's susceptible gore windows.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Lafay

[cs_zoltan]

Anni will never be competitive in PvP because it has a ramp up time, period.

 

That's why it was the most used marauder spec until 1.4-1.5

[cs_zoltan]

It needs uncleanseable dots.

No class needs uncleanseable dots (I strongly disagree with madness having it, and a madness Sorc is what I play most in pvp), it is lazy design and smarter solutions should be found without nerfing some of the utility of the healer classes.

I disagree, what is lazy is taking away a spec 20-40% damage, utility and other benefits with a single global cd. It's like you could cleanse off Gore from a carange mara or cleanse of Shockwave. If DoT sepcs can lose their damage so trivially than Burst specs should too, right?...I didn't think so

[Lafay]

I disagree, what is lazy is taking away a spec 20-40% damage, utility and other benefits with a single global cd. It's like you could cleanse off Gore from a carange mara or cleanse of Shockwave. If DoT sepcs can lose their damage so trivially than Burst specs should too, right?...I didn't think so

 

QFT

 

5char

[TheCourier-]

Annihilation definitely needs its own question.

[Phantasym]

That's why I would say to remove any cool down reductions to it so that it is a flat 2 minutes all the time. Obviously there is a 1 minute difference in the cool downs between sorc bubble / kolto overload and undying rage, but ours only last for 4 - 5 seconds depending on set bonuses where as the others last 10 seconds or more (can't remember the length of kolto overload). So in terms of total length of protection they have it for longer and get no penalty. I'm not saying that's a good reason as to why ours has a shorter cool down but it is true. I would be fine if they increased the CD on undying rage a little more and gave us the first option I suggested if everyone thinks that would be more balanced.

 

Everyone keeps talking about other classes having longer defensive abilities with no downside, but I don't think they are really looking at the differences. A sorc barrier for example is 10 seconds but they cannot do anything else in those 10 seconds. A marauders is shorter yes, but they can still put out dps during that time often winning the close fight, they can also run away, or use it with other abilities etc. Annihilation Marauders can even heal themselves while it is up. I am not saying that some change isn't warranted, but you are comparing the length of two totally different abilities.

 

Kolto overload as people said has a longer cooldown, also it is provides healing not protection against damage, totally different thing there, if the merc has several people bursting them down they still die even with that up. The marauder turns 10k smash hits in 10 damage, and can survive with an entire team of 8 bursting them for the duration of undying rage and can even use it to do other things like Camo.

 

The sniper changes might be a bit op since they get completely immunity while being able to still deal damage and have no other penalty, we will have to see if those changes go in with 2.7 Ops cooldowns are laughable compared to how many marauders get between cloak, obfuscate, cloak of pain and undying rage.

 

I think at most if the health loss of undying is put back at the beginning of the ability then they should get a debuff to healing similar to how stealth classes get when they use cloaking screen or the sin version unless they spec into something

[Samoth_Nomad]

I think these questions are great.

The only question I'd like answered would be:

In the last round, the devs said something to the effect of; we'd like to see the AoE damage equal with all specs, and have watchman/ann. the highest sustained dmg, and focus/rage, the highest burst damage.

So I guess I'd like to know what their plan for Combat/Carnage is. It was sort of ignored and as an exclusive combat player, I'd like to know that my spec isn't being buried. If rage is highest burst and anni is highest sustained, what is Carnage going to look like?

It made more sense to me when it looked like this: Anni-highest sustained, Carnage- highest burst, Rage- AoE spec.

Now the future of our specs looks kind of confusing, and I'm not sure I understand the point of changing things around....

Edited February 27, 2014 by Samoth_Nomad

[Phantasym]

I don't know if this would work but to fix issues with the rage why not change the decimate auto crit to instead of being an autocrat to smash, have it cause a debuff to someone you hit with charge or obliterate (I think that's what the 2nd jump is called) Have it make it so that target gets a debuff that causes the next ability to be an auto crit on them. Then smashes wouldn't be crazy and wouldn't need to be nerfed to require a target. The rage spec could choose what to use on that debuffed person, a smash, or a scream, a rage or some other ability that would auto crit for that high burst damage. There wouldn't need to be special separation for damage of smash in pvp either since its a debuff on one person smash would be hitting other people for normal damage.

[TheCourier-]

Don't waste one of the marauder questions on 8 versus 8 ranked. There are MUCH, MUCH, more immediate concerns for marauder, and it isn't the marauder population's place to sponsor a charity question about 8 versus 8 ranked.

 

I repeat, using one of the marauder questions about 8 versus 8 ranked is a waste.

 

The annihilation spec question is very poorly worded. Annihilation spec doesn't do less damage than carnage spec because of PVE boss swaps, and ramp-up time. On an adjustable health training target, annihilation spec STILL does less damage than carnage spec. An adjustable health training target is literally a best case scenario for annihilation spec. Annihilation spec actually needs more damage (about 5% more). As Macedonicus pointed out, annihilation spec actually requires its ramp up time to work correctly.

Edited February 27, 2014 by TheCourier-

[waterboytkd]

Don't waste one of the marauder questions on 8 versus 8 ranked. There are MUCH, MUCH, more immediate concerns for marauder, and it isn't the marauder population's place to sponger a charity question about 8 versus 8 ranked.

 

I repeat, using one of the marauder questions about 8 versus 8 ranked is a waste.

 

I agree. Ranked 8v8 isn't a Marauder question. I would like to see the Rage question focus more an the incoming nerfs from 2.7 and how that relates to the previous nerfs to Undying Rage (which affected the whole AC, not just Rage). Or, I would like the Rage question to focus on what Rage is supposed to actually be: best burst dps, or AoE, and how do they plan on solidifying that role for the AC in a clear and useful way.

[TheCourier-]

I agree. Ranked 8v8 isn't a Marauder question. I would like to see the Rage question focus more an the incoming nerfs from 2.7 and how that relates to the previous nerfs to Undying Rage (which affected the whole AC, not just Rage). Or, I would like the Rage question to focus on what Rage is supposed to actually be: best burst dps, or AoE, and how do they plan on solidifying that role for the AC in a clear and useful way.

 

Honestly, since Bioware is gutting rage spec, they need to undo the undying rage nerf.

[waterboytkd]

Honestly, since Bioware is gutting rage spec, they need to undo the undying rage nerf.

 

I couldn't agree more. Or, if getting healed is REALLY a big deal (I don't see it, especially considering the buffs sages/sorcs and snipers/gunslingers are getting with their "I can't die" ability), then get rid of the hp cost, and have it apply a 50% healing reducer debuff. Or, if they want to get complicated, leave the hp cost (but apply it on activation, NOT at the end of duration), and apply a 50% healing reducer debuff to heals from other characters, so Anni/Watchmen still perform full heals on themselves, and medpacs still hit for the full amount.

[countpopeula]

I couldn't agree more. Or, if getting healed is REALLY a big deal (I don't see it, especially considering the buffs sages/sorcs and snipers/gunslingers are getting with their "I can't die" ability), then get rid of the hp cost, and have it apply a 50% healing reducer debuff. Or, if they want to get complicated, leave the hp cost (but apply it on activation, NOT at the end of duration), and apply a 50% healing reducer debuff to heals from other characters, so Anni/Watchmen still perform full heals on themselves, and medpacs still hit for the full amount.

 

Lol. More anniwhining. Undying is fine, frontloaded or backloaded damage, it's fine. The only things Marauder needs is for DS/OS to be uncleanseable, for Massacre to guarantee Execute procs, and for Gore to make you immune to KB/Stun, and that would probably make Carnage too powerful.

Edited February 27, 2014 by countpopeula

[TheCourier-]

Lol. More anniwhining. Undying is fine, frontloaded or backloaded damage, it's fine. The only things Marauder needs is for DS/OS to be uncleanseable, for Massacre to guarantee Execute procs, and for Gore to make you immune to KB/Stun, and that would probably make Carnage too powerful.

 

You obviously have never played ranked on Pot5. Annihilation spec is tied with scoundrel DPS, and madness assassin for worst spec for ranked. If you are going to say that annihilation spec is fine for ranked, then you must show a screenshot of an annihilation marauder with a 2000+ ranked rating.

Edited February 27, 2014 by TheCourier-

[waterboytkd]

Lol. More anniwhining. Undying is fine, frontloaded or backloaded damage, it's fine. The only things Marauder needs is for DS/OS to be uncleanseable, for Massacre to guarantee Execute procs, and for Gore to make you immune to KB/Stun, and that would probably make Carnage too powerful.

 

Anniwhining? You probably didn't notice, but I have the specs I play in my sig. I don't play annihilation outside of the leveling process.

 

Really, I want to be able to pop UR and then a medpac again.

 

EDIT: And your changes to Carnage would make it too powerful. Really, if you want the KB/Stun resistance for Gore, change Gore from a time window to charges. You activate Gore, and you're next 3 attacks have 100% armor pen. As for guaranteed Execute with Massacre, our on-demand burst dps would probably eclipse that of Rage, which, from the sounds of it, is what that spec is supposed to excel at.

 

Instead, Ataru strikes should grant a charge of Execute, which boosts damage on Force Scream by 3.33%, and stacks up to 3 times. Then Towering Rage should further augment Execute by making each stack of Execute increase the Force Scream crit % by 33%. That way, we can't get screwed by the RNG gods, but it's not instant, on-demand burst (short ramp up time, but a ramp up time nontheless).

 

Similarly, change Slaughter so that Ataru strikes grant a charge of Slaughter, which doesn't do anything, but stacks up to 5 times. At 5 stacks, Slaughter discharges, immediately finishing the cooldown on Gore and Vicious Throw, as well as making the next Vicious Throw free and usuable on any target regardless of health.

Edited February 27, 2014 by waterboytkd

[TheCourier-]

Since Bioware gave mercenaries basically everything that they asked for, Gudarzz, you need to be very, very specific with your questions. AKA, instead of saying "is annihilation spec performing as Bioware's combat team is expecting", ask "since rage spec is getting massively nerfed in patch 2.7, the nerfs to undying rage, and annihilation spec's self healing seem very extreme".

 

Mercenaries basically wrote a wish list for their class representative questions, and they got almost everything that they asked for.

Edited February 27, 2014 by TheCourier-

[countpopeula]

Anniwhining? You probably didn't notice, but I have the specs I play in my sig. I don't play annihilation outside of the leveling process.

 

Really, I want to be able to pop UR and then a medpac again.

 

So L2timeit? I don't have an issue with it at all.

[TheCourier-]

So L2timeit? I don't have an issue with it at all.

 

You play on a PVE server. The Shadowlands is a complete joke of a server for PVP. Infinite Darkness transferred to Pot5.

 

On Pot5, if a player uses undying rage, they are usually going to die very quickly after it wears off.

Edited February 27, 2014 by TheCourier-

[countpopeula]

You obviously have never played ranked on Pot5. Annihilation spec is tied with scoundrel DPS, and madness assassin for worst spec for ranked. If you are going to say that annihilation spec is fine for ranked, then you must show a screenshot of an annihilation marauder with a 2000+ ranked rating.

 

POT5 ranked isn't any better than any other server's ranked.There's more comps being thrown around, the players are not any better than the best on any other server, there's just more of the good and more of the bad. Been there, tried it, transferred back. And no, Anni is awful in any warzone, primarily because the damage is tied to abilities anyone can cleanse.

 

ID has characters on Shadowlands, they get beat by the better ranked teams. All of our best transferred to POT5, the majority transferred back. The PvP vs PvE server is a tired old argument, please come up with something relevant.

Edited February 27, 2014 by countpopeula