Marauder class representative: Sample questions!

[Mr_Fuzzle]

So this discussion has gone pretty far away from the beaten path. What I'm seeing is a misunderstanding between burst in PVP versus burst in PVE. Burst in PVP typically needs to be controlled and therefore predictable, this exactly what Rage Bruins to the table. Every x amount of seconds it brings in the autocrit Smash that the player can use when they choose. Burst in PVE however tends to revolve around the ramp up time needed to get to max dps with particular attention given to the damage spike in the opener. This is exactly what Carnage brings to the table with Rage trailing slightly behind. That's ask I have to say about the war in Vietnam, I mean, the war in the forums. Or is it the warums?

[kennethdale]

You're welcome to define burst however you like, if that be the case than any class with an autocrit ability is a burst class. Sweeping Slash is absolutely amazing DPS when you catch the upper target limit with an attack, guaranteed mainhand and offhand for 2k a mob for 3 resource? Yes please, all day every day. We do NiM Dash only, where you don't have time to waste single targeting the Xuvas. Much more efficient for the entire group to mass burn them just prior to the shields dropping instead with 4 of them out, more bang for everyone's AoE buck. The reason Mara/Sent has to use a lot of resource to duration AoE is because it's a class that builds it's own resource. Other classes have to worry about draining their resource pool or entering reduced regen tiers to spam AoE, all Warrior/Knights need to do is auto attack to regain. A more than fair trade. Anywho, you're essentially disagreeing by agreeing with my statement, what is your point?

 

Uh, I never have a problem with wasted Slaughter procs even in boss fights. The exception is the Kell Dragon while I'm building resource and stacks during Spines. I still don't see how using Smash is burst. It's a single autocrit that hits for less than Carnage's autocrit and is on essentially the same cooldown. Only by stacking DOTs before using it can it truly become burst damage, otherwise again any class with an autocrit is a burst class. At what point does doing large amounts of damage stop being burst and start being just doing damage since every class other than Sage/Sorc is capable of it?

 

Two questions for you:

1) If you, I'm assuming a Carnage Mara, don't require any build up then how do you have resources to use the abilities that proc the ability that procs the auto crit Force Scream and how so you subsequently proc that auto crit?

2) How exactly do you "not waste" a random proc that procs off of a random proc that resets the cool down on an ability with no regard to whether that ability is on cool down?

 

Based on your comments you seem to be in a whole other level in terms of dps than any other Carnage Mara since you can use an auto crit force scream without using any other abilities and you can control how and when your gore cool down is reset. You should really share this information with the community because it will revolutionize Carnage DPS and absolutely make it bar none the best DPS spec in the game. Unless you meant that you don't waste free Vicious Throws and weren't including having to BUILD UP Rage so that you can subsequently BUILD UP procs to allow you to use those burst abilities. No, that couldn't be because you specifically said having to BUILD UP DoTs in Annihilation so that you can subsequently use Berserk isn't burst just like Rage has to BUILD UP stacks of Shockwave so that they can use subsequent abilities just like Sorcs have to BUILD UP DoTs on a target so that they can get an auto crit just like every healing class ever has had to BUILD UP some effect to make their subsequent heals bigger/more effective. Couldn't be that.

[countpopeula]

Two questions for you:

1) If you, I'm assuming a Carnage Mara, don't require any build up then how do you have resources to use the abilities that proc the ability that procs the auto crit Force Scream and how so you subsequently proc that auto crit?

2) How exactly do you "not waste" a random proc that procs off of a random proc that resets the cool down on an ability with no regard to whether that ability is on cool down?

 

Based on your comments you seem to be in a whole other level in terms of dps than any other Carnage Mara since you can use an auto crit force scream without using any other abilities and you can control how and when your gore cool down is reset. You should really share this information with the community because it will revolutionize Carnage DPS and absolutely make it bar none the best DPS spec in the game. Unless you meant that you don't waste free Vicious Throws and weren't including having to BUILD UP Rage so that you can subsequently BUILD UP procs to allow you to use those burst abilities. No, that couldn't be because you specifically said having to BUILD UP DoTs in Annihilation so that you can subsequently use Berserk isn't burst just like Rage has to BUILD UP stacks of Shockwave so that they can use subsequent abilities just like Sorcs have to BUILD UP DoTs on a target so that they can get an auto crit just like every healing class ever has had to BUILD UP some effect to make their subsequent heals bigger/more effective. Couldn't be that.

 

I'm pretty sure that Ravage is 100% free, as is Berserk. Under your definition of burst damage, then Carnage is the only true burst class since it has the lowest channel time of the highest DPS:resource spent/GCD ratio in the game. That's a pretty bold statement you're making. If Force Charge counts against burst damage, then I concede to you oh most Almighty Kennethdale, whom knows so much about a class that isn't even primary in his signature. If that be the case, then Rage/Focus isn't a burst class either, because Force Charge/Oblit is required to guarantee a crit and requires a BUILD UP (omg I can caps too) to the autocrit. Considering how there isn't a single attack in the game that guarantees autocrit without first activating another ability, then there are no true burst classes under your definition other than Carnage/Combat. Let me follow this up with clarifying that I don't believe in the reasoning I've stated here, it's just the only way to describe your take on burst damage. I really don't understand where you're going with this, it's like you're defeating your own argument with your own argument. Petty anger undermines your attempt to try to argue/discuss intelligently, please stop with the personal attacks and instead provide a rational reasoning as to why I'm incorrect.

 

It's actually very simple to predict and overcome the so called Slaughter randomized proc limitations. I could go into detail about it, but you'll probably derail it with some irrelevant argument. You cannot control the Slaughter proc, but you can 100% predict it's timing and work your rotation around it. Or you can just keep limiting your play by making excuses.

Edited September 26, 2013 by countpopeula

[Sprgmr]

Seriously dude, can you respond to anything in a mature, objective and non-condescending manner? You keep saying how you are able to play Combat/Carnage in a way that it would appear no one else does, but have yet to provide any details. I know I'm no as good as y'all so I can't speak for or against most of what is being said. But for the love of god, imagine you are talking to them face to face and become civil.

[znihilist]

You cannot control the Slaughter proc, but you can 100% predict it's timing and work your rotation around it. Or you can just keep limiting your play by making excuses.

 

Can you please write an article on this to be published in a scientific magazine ? I know a lot of mathematicians/Statisticians/Physicists would love to know how can you predict with 100% accuracy when a random event is going to happen. You can revolutionize modern science with that.

[KeyboardNinja]

Can you please write an article on this to be published in a scientific magazine ? I know a lot of mathematicians/Statisticians/Physicists would love to know how can you predict with 100% accuracy when a random event is going to happen. You can revolutionize modern science with that.

 

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the 20 second ICD together with an understanding of what abilities have the highest probability to proc it. As an example, if I *really* need to delay a Slaughter but I *really* can't stop attacking, I can use my normal attacks until 5 seconds before the 20 second timer (roughly, just before Gore comes off CD naturally). At that point, I can swap to Assault (to build rage), Force Choke and Smash. Assault has a comparatively low probability of procing Slaughter if you're not running under the Massacre buff. Other Fury-generating attacks with even lower probability to proc are Rupture, Crippling Throw and Vicious Throw.

 

This isn't 100% (contrary to what Ranick says). The longer you delay Slaughter, the higher the chance that you will have a miss-proc at some point, and frankly if you're using Crippling Throw and Choke, you may as well just be standing still doing nothing (which is generally what I do during the Dragon). However, I do agree that knowing the timing and understanding your abilities gives you a lot more influence over Slaughter than most people believe. The only 100% way to delay Slaughter is to toggle your form or simply stop attacking.

[znihilist]

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the 20 second ICD together with an understanding of what abilities have the highest probability to proc it. As an example, if I *really* need to delay a Slaughter but I *really* can't stop attacking, I can use my normal attacks until 5 seconds before the 20 second timer (roughly, just before Gore comes off CD naturally). At that point, I can swap to Assault (to build rage), Force Choke and Smash. Assault has a comparatively low probability of procing Slaughter if you're not running under the Massacre buff. Other Fury-generating attacks with even lower probability to proc are Rupture, Crippling Throw and Vicious Throw.

 

This isn't 100% (contrary to what Ranick says). The longer you delay Slaughter, the higher the chance that you will have a miss-proc at some point, and frankly if you're using Crippling Throw and Choke, you may as well just be standing still doing nothing (which is generally what I do during the Dragon). However, I do agree that knowing the timing and understanding your abilities gives you a lot more influence over Slaughter than most people believe. The only 100% way to delay Slaughter is to toggle your form or simply stop attacking.

 

I don't play carnage anymore so I have no idea what this means.

(I actually did play it pre 2.0 and now I have an alt that is around level 40, so I am really not very experienced in how the spec behaves now).

All I know is that the physicist and statistician in me was very intrigued by that 100%

[kennethdale]

I'm pretty sure that Ravage is 100% free, as is Berserk. Under your definition of burst damage, then Carnage is the only true burst class since it has the lowest channel time of the highest DPS:resource spent/GCD ratio in the game. That's a pretty bold statement you're making. If Force Charge counts against burst damage, then I concede to you oh most Almighty Kennethdale, whom knows so much about a class that isn't even primary in his signature. If that be the case, then Rage/Focus isn't a burst class either, because Force Charge/Oblit is required to guarantee a crit and requires a BUILD UP (omg I can caps too) to the autocrit. Considering how there isn't a single attack in the game that guarantees autocrit without first activating another ability, then there are no true burst classes under your definition other than Carnage/Combat. Let me follow this up with clarifying that I don't believe in the reasoning I've stated here, it's just the only way to describe your take on burst damage. I really don't understand where you're going with this, it's like you're defeating your own argument with your own argument. Petty anger undermines your attempt to try to argue/discuss intelligently, please stop with the personal attacks and instead provide a rational reasoning as to why I'm incorrect.

 

It's actually very simple to predict and overcome the so called Slaughter randomized proc limitations. I could go into detail about it, but you'll probably derail it with some irrelevant argument. You cannot control the Slaughter proc, but you can 100% predict it's timing and work your rotation around it. Or you can just keep limiting your play by making excuses.

 

Let me try to make this a little more clear this time since you seem to be incapable of detecting sublety:

 

[iRONY]

OH MY GOSH! I'm so sorry, I had no idea there was a definitive signature format! Here I was thinking it was just an option to convey a message of some kind, and in my case I had chosen to list my max level characters in no particular order. That is totally my bad, for my own edification what is this format so that I can be sure that you know which characters I play? Can I also include the addendum that for the past several months my Marauder was my main however due to real life issues in our raid, I've had to switch to my Juggernaut to tank? Is there some sort of short hand for that? Perhaps IRH2SMMFM Mara 2 Jugg? You apparently know more than me, so I'll await your response.

[/iRONY]

 

As for my "definition of burst", here is where you prove just how stupid you are. I was being ironic that entire post. My opinion on burst is that it is, as it is defined in the English language, damage that is:

 

4: An abrupt, intense increase

 

In other words, those spikes you claim that aren't burst are burst. Just to ensure 100% clarity: I am saying you are completely wrong and completely contradictory of yourself in that your claim that burst is not spike damage but is instead damage dealt in a spike (as represented on a graph, not a literal spike but apparently I need to make sure you fully understand). My definition of "burst" is applicable to all classes in SWtOR because all classes in SWtOR possess some burst, with the lowest being Madness Assassin/Sorcerer and Balance Shadow/Sage (those are the same classes, for clarification, just mirrors of each other) in that their biggest burst ability is Deathfield/Force in Balance which hits a single target for about 6000 damage and is on a 15 second cooldown. For more clarification, burst damage comes from burst abilities and does not include random critical strikes, which although they would cause a small momentary spike in damage, are not consistent nor large enough to constitute burst.

 

As for Slaughter: You are correct. 20 seconds is easy to time in your head and you can avoid most of the abilities that have a chance to proc Slaughter. The issue here is two-fold: 1) Removing those abilities from your rotation for any length of time is going to cause a significant damage drop that over the course of a fight will compound into huge DPS losses. There are obvious exceptions to this, as KBN pointed out the Kell Dragon is a great example. However, this leads into point 2) You cannot avoid all of the abilities that proc Ataru form which subsequently procs Slaughter, unless you stop attacking completely. [iRONY]Now, I'm not 100% certain but I have a sneaking suspicion that not attacking would lead to DPS losses. Just a guess there.[/iRONY] In all seriousness, there are situations where this is preferable to wasting a Slaughter proc however they are few and far between. By comparison, the Juggernaut Rampage proc is 100% controllable in terms of preventing "wasted" procs given that the two abilities that can proc Rampage have a cooldown equal to or greater than that of Rampage therefore using them while Rampage is available to be procced means a chance to proc them and then if a proc is received you can simply delay the next usage of those abilities until the internal cool down on Rampage is up (one full Impale or 3 seconds left on Shatter). The issue with both of these cases is the next part:

 

So you've prevented a wasted proc and are now just waiting on that proc! Except, you're still waiting on random number generation. Albeit the proc chances for Carnage are significantly higher mixed with a much larger range of abilities to trigger that proc than Vengeance, but there will still be times when you just cannot trigger your proc. I've had it happen to me on my Marauder in Annihilation (Pulverize), my Marauder in Carnage (Slaughter and Execute), my Sentinel in Watchman (Mind Sear), my Sentinel in Combat (Hand of Justice and Opportune Attacks), my Juggernaut in Vengeance (Rampage), and my Mercenary in Arsenal (Barrage) [NOTE: My Sentinel is not included in my signature because she is only 52 and not a character I play consistently, I know you'd want to check on that given your status as Master of Signatures]. An aside: These days the term "proc" is used very widely to indicate a buff or debuff that occurs as a result of using something tertiary, however the term literally refers to Programmed Random OCcurrences so while some people would call Shockwave a "proc" it isn't really one as it has a 100% chance to be triggered when talented. Conversely, the Duplicity buff for Deception Assassins, though it can be guaranteed to trigger on certain abilities would still count as a "proc" since that "auto" Duplicity comes on a separate cool down from the one that is actually a programmed random occurrence.

 

One final note: when I play my Marauder (which again, for clarity was my main character until last week) he is Annihilation, not Carnage. I dislike Carnage because I don't want to have to rely on a proc to get out the highest DPS abilities. On top of that, Carnage is far too frenetic for my taste. It feels choppy and unconnected which isn't how sword-play should feel. Its a silly thing, I recognize that, but the small portion of me that is a RP'er likes to feel as if there is a small semblance of realism behind my fake character and his fake exploits in a fake world.

 

[Please, oh dear god, PLEASE tell me that I have misused the word "Irony" and instead should have said "Sarcasm". That would just make my freaking day.]

[Gudarzz]

Fair, but my question was a template not intended as anything more than an idea.

 

The point I wanted to make is to understand from the combat team whether the heavy reliance on Rage is due to:

(edit: We know why there is a heavy reliance, it is because of the extraordinary performance of the spec, I want to see why they think rage have that performance)

1) The spec really is a very powerful spec (needs nerfing/toning down)

2) The spec is perceived as powerful because of the meta of 8v8 WZs (this leads to the question of whether this will continue with 4x4 in their opinion or not)

3) The spec is perceived as powerful not because of the meta but because of the shortcomings of the other specs (marauder and else)

4) What are their plans exactly for this spec in the near future (regardless of their answer) ? tone down the burst or the aoe part , or leave it as it is?

 

Thanks for this.

 

I have provided an updated PVP question on the first page. I was in a rush, so let's just call it a rough draft for now.

 

When I get back, I will address and implement any suggestions you guys might have. Znihilist is correct in that the question about rage should be posed in relation to Annihilation, Carnage, and the current PVP meta. Hopefully, the new question is a bit more suitable in this regard.

[znihilist]

Thanks for this.

 

I have provided an updated PVP question on the first page. I was in a rush, so let's just call it a rough draft for now.

 

When I get back, I will address and implement any suggestions you guys might have. Znihilist is correct in that the question about rage should be posed in relation to Annihilation, Carnage, and the current PVP meta. Hopefully, the new question is a bit more suitable in this regard.

 

Random idea, no need to be taken seriously: I was looking at the Mercenary questions and I think they came up with a very interesting approach.

I think we could do that with our questions as well since we have the time.

 

Edit: I still owe you a post on the annihilation question.

[Gudarzz]

Random idea, no need to be taken seriously: I was looking at the Mercenary questions and I think they came up with a very interesting approach.

I think we could do that with our questions as well since we have the time.

 

Edit: I still owe you a post on the annihilation question.

 

Yeah the format has some advantages no doubt.

 

I look forward to your input on the Annihilation question. You could also PM me and I can reference that...there seems to be a war going on in our thread lol.

[countpopeula]

blah blah blah hypocrisy, backpedaling, attempted yet failed elitist English wit, more fail, invalid arguments

 

I could go into detail about how you're a hypocrite who backpedals to support his own arguments with words like irony and sarcasm, but it'd be pointless. We can argue the definition of "Burst DPS" all day, you've both supported my argument and defeated your own while telling me I'm wrong which as been pretty lulzy. I'll just counter with this: You're lazy and using LOL RNG as your excuse/reasoning behind why you cannot play this class/spec to it's fullest.

 

You don't need to stop DPS to delay, predict or control Slaughter. You just let it happen. You plan ahead, and you respond when it procs. The net DPS gain of planning for and predicting armor pen resets over using attacks on cooldown is significant enough to warrant waiting for it to happen. KBN and I have had discussions/arguments about this spec on the Sentinel forums, he still doesn't fully grasp what I mean when I say you can control Slaughter. You cannot 100% full control anything in this game, or you'd have /GameMaster mode engaged. You can easily however change your playstyle and rotation to sychromesh with the semi-predictable timings of ICD based proc systems specs. Do you fully stop DPS or stop using your highest damage attacks? No/not necessarily, but using Ataru guaranteed attacks close to your Slaughter window while saving your high damage attacks for when it procs within the statistically "guaranteed" window will net you more DPS than just running with it. Carnage isn't Anni, you can't just flow with it. There's a series of split second decisions every .25-3 seconds that are required to maintain optimal DPS. That's why I believe the spec is so powerful yet very difficult to master. To pre-counter your asinine counter to this, no you cannot 100% guarantee anything statistically in this game or in life, as I've said here. Outside of a several standard deviation point value however, you can roll with assumption that certain procs will occur within a certain time frame and provide you with a net DPS gain. This means it makes sense to save your big damage attacks for armor pen windows close to a Slaughter reset.

 

You are correct. Shockwave/Singularity is not a proc, it is a buff. It does however take time to build unless activated by Berserk/Zen, and requires a synergistic buff that requires using a lower damage attack to activate in order to maximize the damage from a singular attack which does not deal enough damage nor is off cooldown enough to denote high end burst damage. The exception is since it is an AoE ability, when more than 1 mob is caught in it's radius. Please do not patronize me, I've never seen your Marauder's name in any competitive or ranked DPS thread or website. If I'm incorrect, please feel free to provide the links. As far as I can search, your highest dummy parse is 2550DPS, which is being generous. Frankly, that's pathetic considering I can run 3050 with less than optimal gearing for that spec and I don't play it more than once every month. If you have a better parse, one that puts you competitively into the realm of being able to speak intelligently on the class feel free to link it and we can discuss further on the merits of your discussion points. If not, just shut up and go away.

 

"On a final note", you're trying to cite personal fantasy world bullcrap as a reason to play certain specs on a numbers and empirical evidence based thread to contribute to the future of the class. GeeTFO. Seriously, just get out.

[KeyboardNinja]

Frankly, that's pathetic considering I can run 3050 with less than optimal gearing for that spec and I don't play it more than once every month.

 

I'll ignore the further digs against what you seem to think I don't understand. I'm well aware of how one structures one's rotation around Slaughter. Neither here nor there.

 

I'm more curious about this 3050 parse of yours in Rage spec. With the boss scalar associated with Rage, that would make Rage your highest boss DPS spec by far even for a single target fight (since Rage picks up 12% when it goes to a boss, while Carnage only picks up 3%). 3050 would also be the highest Rage/Focus dummy parse I've seen by almost 11%, which is a pretty significant gap.

 

Unless you meant annihilation, in which case never mind.

[kennethdale]

Not being able to understand basic English. Failing at basic math. I can't understand basic argumentative structure. Etc. Etc. Etc.

 

ROFLMAO. Yeah, I am a total hypocrite. You got me. I made a whole post that said the exact opposite of what I had said before using basic ironic sentence structure and it was all a ploy, a cry for help if you will, that you see that I'm actually just a scared little child who needs it explained to me. Its clear you have no understanding of the class or of the game, or really of anything beyond. You're argument of "I'M RIGHT BECAUSE I'M RIGHT" is silly and childish and while it was worth a laugh, it contributes nothing to this thread and as such, you've been ignored.

[countpopeula]

ROFLMAO. Yeah, I am a total hypocrite. You got me. I made a whole post that said the exact opposite of what I had said before using basic ironic sentence structure and it was all a ploy, a cry for help if you will, that you see that I'm actually just a scared little child who needs it explained to me. Its clear you have no understanding of the class or of the game, or really of anything beyond. You're argument of "I'M RIGHT BECAUSE I'M RIGHT" is silly and childish and while it was worth a laugh, it contributes nothing to this thread and as such, you've been ignored.

 

If you're going to try be a grammar nazi, please learn how to use punctuation. You have lots of unnecessary commas in there, trololol. I'm "right" because you haven't provided one piece of empirical evidence to the contrary. Instead, you resort to personal attacks and failing attempts at being intellectual and witty.

 

If I have no understanding of the class or game, how am I the top Carnage Marauder, the second highest non-rollbang DPS, World 5th for the TFB NiM Title, and full cleared everything endgame right now? Clearly I have no clue how to play. Can you give me tips ploxthx?. How far have you cleared into current NiM content out of curiosity? That's all you need say in your response, which I'm 100% sure will include a bunch of irrelevant banter and personal attacks.

 

For Keyboardninja, it was an Anni parse. My highest Rage 5min dummy parse is 2950, might try blue adrenals to push it over 3k for every spec in Mara/Sent but I doubt I care that much with new raids coming out next week. Rage really isn't all THAT far behind, but with current enrage timers, it doesn't pull weight. You and I arguing is pointless because you see things from a strictly mathematically based standpoint, where I am an applied science basis thinker. I will say that your highest numbers and rotation indicate you can improve significantly, but that's on you to do/decide and none of my business really. I just try to point out where you are making incorrect assumptions because you have the power to influence the way the SWTOR team perceives the mindset of the playerbase, which is a huge responsibility.

[Darkemace]

[iRONY]

OH MY GOSH! I'm so sorry, I had no idea there was a definitive signature format! Here I was thinking it was just an option to convey a message of some kind, and in my case I had chosen to list my max level characters in no particular order. That is totally my bad, for my own edification what is this format so that I can be sure that you know which characters I play? Can I also include the addendum that for the past several months my Marauder was my main however due to real life issues in our raid, I've had to switch to my Juggernaut to tank? Is there some sort of short hand for that? Perhaps IRH2SMMFM Mara 2 Jugg? You apparently know more than me, so I'll await your response.

[/iRONY]

 

Actually this is sarcasm, but it's ironic you can't tell the difference.

[kennethdale]

[iRONY]

OH MY GOSH! I'm so sorry, I had no idea there was a definitive signature format! Here I was thinking it was just an option to convey a message of some kind, and in my case I had chosen to list my max level characters in no particular order. That is totally my bad, for my own edification what is this format so that I can be sure that you know which characters I play? Can I also include the addendum that for the past several months my Marauder was my main however due to real life issues in our raid, I've had to switch to my Juggernaut to tank? Is there some sort of short hand for that? Perhaps IRH2SMMFM Mara 2 Jugg? You apparently know more than me, so I'll await your response.

[/iRONY]

 

Actually this is sarcasm, but it's ironic you can't tell the difference.

 

Irony: Saying the opposite of what you mean.

 

: the use of words that mean the opposite of what you really think especially in order to be funny

 

: a situation that is strange or funny because things happen in a way that seems to be the opposite of what you expected

 

1 : a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning —called also Socratic irony

2 a : the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning

b : a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony

c : an ironic expression or utterance

3 a (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result (2) : an event or result marked by such incongruity

b : incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play —called also dramatic irony, tragic irony

(Source)

 

Sarcasm: Mocking with praise.

 

: the use of words that mean the opposite of what you really want to say especially in order to insult someone, to show irritation, or to be funny

 

1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain

2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual

b : the use or language of sarcasm

(Source)

 

There are elements of sarcasm but overall it is ironic. Highlighted above you will find the uses of each included in that particular portion of text. Both were taken from Merriam-Webster. For reference, the last statement ("You apparently know more than me, so I'll await your response.") is in particular sarcastic, however the rest of it is pure irony in that I feign ignorance but in no way directly mock him. However, by feigning ignorance I am indirectly mocking him so it gets a bit muddled. Generally, sarcasm is identified as saying something like "Oh no! Of course that dress doesn't make you look fat." when the intended meaning is that it does, in fact, make the subject look fat whereas irony is used more a as a device to indirectly comment. An easier way to look at the two is the square-rectangle adage: A square is always a rectangle, but a rectangle is not always a square. Sarcasm is always ironic, but irony is not always sarcastic. As such, if you're having trouble deciding whether something is ironic or sarcastic, take the safe route and call it irony; you'll still be correct either way.

 

Thank you SO much for calling me out on that. Love people who try to claim one when they mean the other.

[countpopeula]

[insert hyperlinks to definitions that prove the quoted person correct and myself incorrect, serving only to waste forum space]

 

There are elements of sarcasm but overall it is ironic. [backpedal, try to rationalize being put in my place after getting called out on misusing words, fail at defending the point.]

 

In a decade of forum topic discussion and trolling, I find it's always the most in game-inept players who counter with English and grammar based retorts and resort to Googling definitions after the fact to check to make sure they didn't make a clown of themselves. I don't really see a point in that since even when they're wrong, they'll counter with LOL I WUZ JK, UR DUMB. Used to be there myself in all honesty, they're pointless and self serving arguments that do nothing other than make you look inept at forming cohesive discussion points. Someday you'll evolve to the point where you can use empirical evidence and your own effort testing things to defend arguments, but apparently today is not that day. Irony and sarcasm both lose effectiveness drastically if you have to point out their usage, even if you're doing it to try to demean someone else by attempting to call them unintelligent. You can say you were using irony sarcastically or being sarcastic by using irony, neither changes the fact by having to plug in definitions and explain yourself to everyone else, you don't alter their perception of your posts. You're going to get the response "Ok, I get it you were trying to do this with your words, but you still look dumb even after having justified it". Either post something of value in this thread pertaining to the Marauder questions or get out, you're wasting space.

 

Gudarzz, I would rethink the Carnage and Rage questions. It falsely indicates that in all scenarios Rage is the best option, which just isn't the case. In WZ's with chokes like Hypergate or point defense with high ground/LOS issues like Novare, Rage is overpowered because of Smash AoE in the focal points. However with current Ranked metagame strategies, Carnage is valued as a support class/healer killer because its Pred/Trans is very valuable for team migration from point to point and it's ability to keep all healing classes under constant duress/kill outright. Anni also has its place in point defense, as 1v1 it is the most powerful spec in the class, possibly the game if you don't count sap-regen. I think the question should be reworked to focus solely on the nature of the Smash Autocrit, since the burst DPS factor of the spec relies on hitting as close to the upper target limit as possible. In a 1v1 Rage is not as powerful as Anni. You already have a start with Single Target Shock/Sing application, the other thing I've thrown around is for Charge/Oblit to apply an autocrit debuff to one target rather than a Rage user buff. The RNG of the other crit rolls would help provide variability into the damage output on par with Carnage, and reduce the ability for a Rage user to use Smash as a multiple-player execute at low health for respawn control. For Carnage, the PvP issue is less of the Slaughter proc as this is more of a PvE issue if it is an issue at all (I don't believe it is) and more focused around the fact that certain defensive cooldowns negate the armor pen windows. A prime example of this is the Marauder/Assassin matchup where Force Shroud nullifies a Force Scream, the attack the spec is centered around. Deflection also nullifies both Gore windows in a 1v1, as the significantly increased parry/dodge will ruin an entire natural Gore and the Slaughter reset in the singular cooldown. Since both classes are burst based the fight is unlikely to last long enough to enter a second Slaughter proc chance. That is the real issue I see with running Carnage in 8v warzones or dueling, where Anni provides increased survivability linked to an increased damage output and Rage allows you to pull stealth classes back into combat when used properly.

[Aztian]

Question why are Rage so Boring and easy to play and why is it about 2-3 keys?

[KeyboardNinja]

For Keyboardninja, it was an Anni parse. My highest Rage 5min dummy parse is 2950, might try blue adrenals to push it over 3k for every spec in Mara/Sent but I doubt I care that much with new raids coming out next week. Rage really isn't all THAT far behind, but with current enrage timers, it doesn't pull weight. You and I arguing is pointless because you see things from a strictly mathematically based standpoint, where I am an applied science basis thinker. I will say that your highest numbers and rotation indicate you can improve significantly, but that's on you to do/decide and none of my business really. I just try to point out where you are making incorrect assumptions because you have the power to influence the way the SWTOR team perceives the mindset of the playerbase, which is a huge responsibility.

 

I've asked for specific criticisms on my parses in the past. Aside from vaguely calling out "bad decision making" and taunting me with a double-zen trick that I needed to "figure out", you haven't really given me anything to work on. I'm not exactly closed minded; if you really see problems with my rotation, then I'd like to hear about them. My PM box is always open. :-)

 

Incidentally, be very very careful when you judge based on dummy numbers. You've in the past mentioned 3.1k a minimum bar for respecting someone's opinion, and specifically called out a few people as being high-parsing sentinels/marauders that you would listen to. Here's a high parse in 72 gear (much higher than my best), but I wouldn't in a thousand years listen to rotation advice from the parser. If you take a cursory look at the log, you'll see what I mean. A bit of math shows almost immediately why a parse with this "rotation" achieved such high marks. If you take my ability activations over a 300 second interval (or even yours, since they're identical) and give them the damage values in the linked parse, the result is over a 3.2k.

 

The point isn't to disparage the parse I linked. Rather, I'm just pointing out that high dummy numbers mean only two certain things. First, it means that you can execute a rotation consistently. Second, it means you have the patience, connection and the consumables to sit down for hours and hours, waiting for that perfect parse where your crits and damage rolls all align. As the linked parse demonstrates, the rotation you're executing doesn't have to be perfect or even close to optimal, you just have to be able to do something remotely passable over and over and over again. That isn't enough to drive any sort of respect from me.

 

Now, I've actually read your parses, and while you yourself have admitted that you dummy parse quite extensively, I don't think your numbers are particularly outlying (in other words, I think you could reproduce your record number, and I respect it as such). For what it's worth, your rotation and priority queue aligns very precisely with the calculated optima (aside from putting Ravage in the first Gore window, which is a dice throw that mathematically doesn't pay off *on average* due to Slaughter procs). Credit where credit is due: you know the spec and you can execute. But the fact that I haven't parsed an extremely high number is no more indicative of my *lack* of knowledge than is the fact that Farius has parsed an extremely high number indicative of his *superior* knowledge. It's just a parse.

 

Regarding your rage parse, 2950 is still extremely high, even for 75 gear. Boss adjusting for armor debuff (which has a SIGNIFICANT effect for Rage) and execute, that's 3304 DPS. That puts it just barely behind your adjusted Carnage parse on a single target boss, but in a spec which has dramatically better AoE, less RNG on its burst windows and a larger DPS jump from raid damage (faster Berserk, which is more beneficial for Rage than Annihilation or Carnage). In other words, you might want to consider running Rage more often on bosses if that's what you're parsing. You'll probably see better numbers on a large number of bosses.

 

Anyway, the real point is that I'd really like to see the parse if you still have it. Torparse is down, but if you could send it to me when you have a chance, I'm legitimately curious. 2950 is the best Rage dummy parse I've even heard of by a margin of 170 DPS. Granted, its the only Rage parse that I've heard of in full 75 gear, but still. I'd like to see what you were doing and how the rolls and crits fell out.

[kennethdale]

I've asked for specific criticisms on my parses in the past. Aside from vaguely calling out "bad decision making" and taunting me with a double-zen trick that I needed to "figure out", you haven't really given me anything to work on. I'm not exactly closed minded; if you really see problems with my rotation, then I'd like to hear about them. My PM box is always open. :-)

 

Incidentally, be very very careful when you judge based on dummy numbers. You've in the past mentioned 3.1k a minimum bar for respecting someone's opinion, and specifically called out a few people as being high-parsing sentinels/marauders that you would listen to. Here's a high parse in 72 gear (much higher than my best), but I wouldn't in a thousand years listen to rotation advice from the parser. If you take a cursory look at the log, you'll see what I mean. A bit of math shows almost immediately why a parse with this "rotation" achieved such high marks. If you take my ability activations over a 300 second interval (or even yours, since they're identical) and give them the damage values in the linked parse, the result is over a 3.2k.

 

The point isn't to disparage the parse I linked. Rather, I'm just pointing out that high dummy numbers mean only two certain things. First, it means that you can execute a rotation consistently. Second, it means you have the patience, connection and the consumables to sit down for hours and hours, waiting for that perfect parse where your crits and damage rolls all align. As the linked parse demonstrates, the rotation you're executing doesn't have to be perfect or even close to optimal, you just have to be able to do something remotely passable over and over and over again. That isn't enough to drive any sort of respect from me.

 

Now, I've actually read your parses, and while you yourself have admitted that you dummy parse quite extensively, I don't think your numbers are particularly outlying (in other words, I think you could reproduce your record number, and I respect it as such). For what it's worth, your rotation and priority queue aligns very precisely with the calculated optima (aside from putting Ravage in the first Gore window, which is a dice throw that mathematically doesn't pay off *on average* due to Slaughter procs). Credit where credit is due: you know the spec and you can execute. But the fact that I haven't parsed an extremely high number is no more indicative of my *lack* of knowledge than is the fact that Farius has parsed an extremely high number indicative of his *superior* knowledge. It's just a parse.

 

Regarding your rage parse, 2950 is still extremely high, even for 75 gear. Boss adjusting for armor debuff (which has a SIGNIFICANT effect for Rage) and execute, that's 3304 DPS. That puts it just barely behind your adjusted Carnage parse on a single target boss, but in a spec which has dramatically better AoE, less RNG on its burst windows and a larger DPS jump from raid damage (faster Berserk, which is more beneficial for Rage than Annihilation or Carnage). In other words, you might want to consider running Rage more often on bosses if that's what you're parsing. You'll probably see better numbers on a large number of bosses.

 

Anyway, the real point is that I'd really like to see the parse if you still have it. Torparse is down, but if you could send it to me when you have a chance, I'm legitimately curious. 2950 is the best Rage dummy parse I've even heard of by a margin of 170 DPS. Granted, its the only Rage parse that I've heard of in full 75 gear, but still. I'd like to see what you were doing and how the rolls and crits fell out.

 

I'm no where near as good at reading parses as you so aside from some very odd things that stood out to me (11k+ blade storm, blade storms within 4 seconds of each other, blade storm out of a PS window...) I'm curious what you mean by it being a bad example of a high parse. Could you elaborate a bit, simply for my own edification? As a side note, I think have a parse requirement for accepting someone's opinion to be absolutely ludicrous as understanding the theory behind a rotation and executing said theory are two entirely different things. I've known amazing DPS who had no idea why what they did worked, and I've known terrible dps who knew exactly what they were doing wrong but couldn't fix it for one reason or another. Oofalong seems to be a wonderful representation of this as, though I've never seen one of his parses, he makes no claims at being elite as a player and yet his opinion and math is highly respected by some of the best including people like gorband.

[KeyboardNinja]

I'm no where near as good at reading parses as you so aside from some very odd things that stood out to me (11k+ blade storm, blade storms within 4 seconds of each other, blade storm out of a PS window...) I'm curious what you mean by it being a bad example of a high parse. Could you elaborate a bit, simply for my own edification?

 

Number of Blade Storm uses. Number of Precision Slashes. Number of Dispatches. All significantly low. Cauterize is high, though I've seen parses that high. If you read the exact rotation, it's easy to see why this is: Precision Slash windows are lost left and right. This is a good example of what it means to *not* track the ICD on Slaughter. The opener alone is enough to see that things aren't going to end well (Leap > Zealous > Blade Rush > Precision + Master > etc). Oh, and also yes, several blade storms out of PS windows.

 

And yet, still better than a 3.1k. Largely because the average hits on each of the abilities used were extremely high. Even with Blade Storms out of Precision Slash windows, BS still averaged 8.1k in 72 gear, which is as good as Ranick did in full 75 gear. This sort of variance is precisely why parse numbers are deceptive, at least when you take just the number in isolation.

[countpopeula]

I've asked for specific criticisms on my parses in the past. Aside from vaguely calling out "bad decision making" and taunting me with a double-zen trick that I needed to "figure out", you haven't really given me anything to work on. I'm not exactly closed minded; if you really see problems with my rotation, then I'd like to hear about them. My PM box is always open. :-)

 

Regarding your rage parse, 2950 is still extremely high, even for 75 gear. Boss adjusting for armor debuff (which has a SIGNIFICANT effect for Rage) and execute, that's 3304 DPS. That puts it just barely behind your adjusted Carnage parse on a single target boss, but in a spec which has dramatically better AoE, less RNG on its burst windows and a larger DPS jump from raid damage (faster Berserk, which is more beneficial for Rage than Annihilation or Carnage). In other words, you might want to consider running Rage more often on bosses if that's what you're parsing. You'll probably see better numbers on a large number of bosses.

 

Anyway, the real point is that I'd really like to see the parse if you still have it. Torparse is down, but if you could send it to me when you have a chance, I'm legitimately curious. 2950 is the best Rage dummy parse I've even heard of by a margin of 170 DPS. Granted, its the only Rage parse that I've heard of in full 75 gear, but still. I'd like to see what you were doing and how the rolls and crits fell out.

 

I gave you my critiques, the biggest one I remember offhand is your priority of Vicious Throw over FS. In a non-natural execute, you prioritize FS as your number one attack in armor pen. There are deviations, but the example I cited in your opener is a case where you definitely FS over VT. If you want critiques I can provide them, but honestly the only way to do that is to watch a stream of you parsing. What hotkey'd ability you are spamming at any given point is far more telling than a log in my opinion. I can give out basic play behind Carnage/Combat but that's not where top end DPS comes from, the situation tweaks that require quarter second reactions is what is changes the game.

 

I can upload the parse when I get back from this work trip, but your 3300 with armor pen is inaccurate. Boss fights represent anything but optimal conditions, because different moves have different priorities in regards to mechanics. In mathematical theory, you can add 5% damage for 20% armor pen on the majority of bosses. However that rarely translates directly as you cannot execute a perfect rotation under duress, and you will shift your rotation priority depending on phase sometimes. This can represent an overall DPS loss, but a controlled burst DPS gain which is often more important to phasing/killing bosses, like Op9 Cores or Terror tentacles. I am always trying to find fights where Rage/Anni work better than Carnage to give me some variance in my play, I was pushing very hard to make Rage work in the Bestia/Draxus fight today but it just doesn't make sense. I ran Anni in Tyrans to help with raid heals. Right now, Carnage is the endgame because of the damage application control it provides the user with.

[KeyboardNinja]

I gave you my critiques, the biggest one I remember offhand is your priority of Vicious Throw over FS. In a non-natural execute, you prioritize FS as your number one attack in armor pen. There are deviations, but the example I cited in your opener is a case where you definitely FS over VT. If you want critiques I can provide them, but honestly the only way to do that is to watch a stream of you parsing. What hotkey'd ability you are spamming at any given point is far more telling than a log in my opinion. I can give out basic play behind Carnage/Combat but that's not where top end DPS comes from, the situation tweaks that require quarter second reactions is what is changes the game.

 

I actually have some videos of me parsing that I made to help some other Combat sentinels. I can probably upload them at some point (I'll shoot you a PM when I do). To answer your question, the "spam" ability that I use is essentially what you do: Massacre > Assault. Rupture > Assault pair after Execute procs. Exception to this is if Gore is coming off CD in one cooldown, in which case I'll do a Dual Saber Throw or an Assault instead of a Massacre (to avoid the Rage drop) unless Ravage is coming off CD in less than 3 seconds, in which case I don't mind being low on Rage (since the second window will be cheap). Rage is kept less than 8 unless Berserk is coming up in time for either Gore window, in which case I push it to 10 (this is where I currently make some errors that I am well aware of). Rupture's use is bounded by the Execute proc, but I've found that the more I can use it, the better my DPS (by a noticeable margin). Battering Assault is always used on CD (because I always plan to be low on Rage at that point) unless under Gore.

 

I initially dismissed your FS over VT advice, because it wasn't really well justified at the time. Both VT and FS are going to be used within the armor pen window and not outside of it. FS's CD is long enough that you can use it at the end of the window and it will still come up in time for the next one (guaranteed). In the window where Ravage is used, VT often gets pushed out in preference to FS (which I was already doing at the time). However, I played around with adjusting the opener and I see more of a justification to your FS over VT priority: the SA relic proc. By pushing FS first, you can often get it under SA in the opener. It's always great to get VT under SA (especially when it crits, since it crits higher than FS), but FS is the auto-crit and therefore takes priority. So in other words, your advice was right, and I've adjusted my opener accordingly (I was already prioritizing FS over VT outside the opener).

 

I can upload the parse when I get back from this work trip, but your 3300 with armor pen is inaccurate. Boss fights represent anything but optimal conditions, because different moves have different priorities in regards to mechanics. In mathematical theory, you can add 5% damage for 20% armor pen on the majority of bosses. However that rarely translates directly as you cannot execute a perfect rotation under duress, and you will shift your rotation priority depending on phase sometimes. This can represent an overall DPS loss, but a controlled burst DPS gain which is often more important to phasing/killing bosses, like Op9 Cores or Terror tentacles.

 

I'm aware of that caveat. I still think the adjustment is a more fair way to compare specs though. The standard way to compare DPS specs is to look at dummy numbers, which significantly advantages some specs (all three sniper specs, Carnage, and a few others) while significantly disadvantaging other specs (all assassin specs, pyro merc, rage, and more). Adjusting for raid buffs and executes gives a clearer picture of what a spec can do. What the 3300 says is that your DPS ceiling in Rage is much closer to your DPS ceiling in Carnage than your dummy numbers would indicate (3300 vs 3400). That makes Rage competitive on fights with tight enrages whenever there is any AoE component. Adjusted DPS is a bit like comparing classes by maximum dummy parse, but factoring out buffs and utility that one class has but another doesn't. So, it's strictly more accurate than simply comparing dummy DPS in a vacuum.

 

I haven't done Dread Palace at all yet (my guild is blind clearing and we were focusing on doing DF in both modes yesterday), but I know that most of the fights in DF have appreciable AoE, to the point where our Focus sentinel was really earning her keep. Off the top of my head: first boss (carnage all the way), second boss (rage without question), third boss (either works, but rage is probably better because of the high-frequency adds), fourth boss (either works, but rage is going to have a slight edge if you're light on AoE), fifth boss (carnage). I think both Carnage and Rage work on all of the bosses, and they're close enough in upper ceiling that neither spec is particularly gimped, but the increased emphasis on AoE in the new content pushes Rage more into the fore than it has been before.

 

I am always trying to find fights where Rage/Anni work better than Carnage to give me some variance in my play, I was pushing very hard to make Rage work in the Bestia/Draxus fight today but it just doesn't make sense. I ran Anni in Tyrans to help with raid heals. Right now, Carnage is the endgame because of the damage application control it provides the user with.

 

I still maintain that Rage has more control over its damage application than Carnage does. That doesn't in any way mean that Carnage is uncontrolled, but your maximum burst window is on a timer, plain and simple. Delaying that timer is doable, but risky unless you can use some null filler attacks (e.g. Force Choke during Spines) or stance dance. You talk about rotation adjustments that are required for real boss fights, and that's absolutely an important point. However, this is an area where Rage simply does better. Everything in the Rage rotation can be moved around with near impunity. There are very few things that are fixed (use thing A and thing B before thing C, but you have a 10 second window in which to do it). As such, rotation adjustments and uptime disruption is easily handled by Rage. This is often more problematic for Carnage since you need uptime to proc Execute and Slaughter and to ensure you have enough Rage for your next Gore window. The core of the Carnage rotation is on a timer that cannot be reduced or extended (whereas the core of the Rage rotation can be delayed as long as you want or accelerated by extra VS if you need it sooner).

 

I think that part of why you're finding Carnage to be more flexible is you simply have more experience with it. And who can blame you? It's a very versatile spec that pushes extremely high DPS with monstrous burst. I think that if you had clocked as much time in PvE Rage as you've clocked in PvE Carnage, you would almost certainly feel that Rage is the more mutable spec in terms of rotation. I know that I feel that way even though I almost never use Focus and have a pretty significant volume of PvE Combat experience (pre- and post-2.0).

[countpopeula]

I think that part of why you're finding Carnage to be more flexible is you simply have more experience with it. And who can blame you? It's a very versatile spec that pushes extremely high DPS with monstrous burst. I think that if you had clocked as much time in PvE Rage as you've clocked in PvE Carnage, you would almost certainly feel that Rage is the more mutable spec in terms of rotation. I know that I feel that way even though I almost never use Focus and have a pretty significant volume of PvE Combat experience (pre- and post-2.0).

 

I've always prefered Carnage, it's what I think a Marauder should be all about: smacking stuff with lightsabers. That bias aside I ran Anni for 9 months of raiding and Rage for the last 2 years in ranked/unranked PvP. I know the ins and outs of all 3 specs pretty well, enough to know when one is worth applying and when it doesn't matter. The only 3 fights where Anni is worth running in current endgame are Dread Guards, TCW, and Tyrans. Everything else has too much downtime. I would only consider running Rage in 3 fights, and I feel safe saying that none of them are truly worth it. I used to run Rage for the first 3 phases of NiM EC Kephess and respec on the fly to Carnage pre 2.0, it was a fun change of pace and helped ensure the Trenchgutters were always going down. I also respec'd mid fight to Rage in NiM TCW to down the fight in it's previous incarnation, I really enjoy spec swapping on the fly. I really, really wanted Rage to work in Bestia and it does fairly well on Draxus, but Carnage's single target face****** provides a more decisive "This mob is dead, no autowipe". You can make any of the 3 specs work for any fight, but I want to give my groups any edge I can and not restrict them at all.