Plz make tankasins not suck

[Drudenfusz]

Someone hasn't played NiM TFB... One of our tanks had to reroll a guardian before we could down the 1st boss, but we are stuck on the dread guards now.

Okay, if you say so... I am not a raider, from a PvP perspective I am fine with my shadow tank.

[mmjarec]

Okay, if you say so... I am not a raider, from a PvP perspective I am fine with my shadow tank.

 

Thanks for posting that you are fine with things not mentioned as issues but try a nightmare tfb before you say all is well about something you admittedly have no experience with

 

Again. Tank seems the only viable way to pvp and that is obviously broken as well since tank was ment to be a pve spec and sins primary function was always dps and at that bot pve and pvp are substandard

Edited August 19, 2013 by mmjarec
Pvp

[Envyyyyyyy]

In Nightmare Ops content Shadow/Sin take dmg too "Spikey" compared to the other 2 options.. It causes the healer to have to watch you and focus on you too much..

Jugg/Guard Vanguard/PT take dmg a lot more smooth.. not has many big quick hits. This doesn't mean they're broken.. but they are at a point to where even fully min/maxed with a great player they won't be as effective as the other 2 options. The top high end progression guilds have switched over to Vanguard/Guard tanks now.

 

As for DPS.. Mid tree in PVP is a monster. A lot of people are playing it at the moment, and a lot of them are bad lol, but some of us are able to use it correctly and burn through 2v1s.. even 3v1s such a versatile class.

 

However, now with arenas out they're showing their weakness again... It's be to run a guard/Vanguard In Arenas..

 

I'm sure this issue will be addressed in later patch notes/update.

[tman_ac]

Someone hasn't played NiM TFB... One of our tanks had to reroll a guardian before we could down the 1st boss, but we are stuck on the dread guards now.

 

Assasins have their flaws, but in several boss fights they are just superior:

 

- TfB NiM first boss: Vanish after tank switch and you won't receive any small adds so dps can focus on jealous male and then go back to the boss again.

- TfB NiM seconds boss: If you have force leech and you are low on health just vanish from the fight and use your class recovery and you can heal up to 100% even with the debuff

- SV NiM 2nd boss: Resist the dmg from the huge grenade

 

And overall you can use loads of medpacks in a fight whenever your vanish from fight is up.

 

I play a Vanguard tank in NiM progression on Republic side and an Assassin on Imperial. I like them both. My VG is however a little bit more relaxing as I am not that much dependent on RNG while I overall just love to play my assa tank.

 

If you are a skilled Assa tank you can clear TfB Nightmare. If you do not know your class it may be hard.

 

my2pence

[mmjarec]

In Nightmare Ops content Shadow/Sin take dmg too "Spikey" compared to the other 2 options.. It causes the healer to have to watch you and focus on you too much..

Jugg/Guard Vanguard/PT take dmg a lot more smooth.. not has many big quick hits. This doesn't mean they're broken.. but they are at a point to where even fully min/maxed with a great player they won't be as effective as the other 2 options. The top high end progression guilds have switched over to Vanguard/Guard tanks now.

 

As for DPS.. Mid tree in PVP is a monster. A lot of people are playing it at the moment, and a lot of them are bad lol, but some of us are able to use it correctly and burn through 2v1s.. even 3v1s such a versatile class.

 

However, now with arenas out they're showing their weakness again... It's be to run a guard/Vanguard In Arenas..

 

I'm sure this issue will be addressed in later patch notes/update.

 

Im not arguing mid tree damage isnt good it just doesnt matter because you are dead. Oh wait yes i am i see other classes with better dos and hgher survivability. Middle tree is not a monster and you cant say all you need is a healer becuz any class is a monster with a pocket healer and obviously you have little raid knowledge or youd realize the more time healers spend focusing on spikey tank hp is less focus they have overall elsewhere and that affects the whole raid. Its not just the spikey hps its the fact we have less mitigation and have nothing to compensate for it with. Intercede is exceptionally useful. A spikey hp bar is the tip of the iceberg. You can argue all you want with no proof on the side that its as viable as jugg tank but all i have to do is point to the numbers based statistical facts on sites like elitist jerks and its obvious there is a disparity. Theres no reason sin should be harder to tank with and worse at it.

 

Sure some differential in defense numbers are fine if they would be made up for in the way of other avenues of viability but there arent

[Andryah]

We are raiding with 2 shadows NiM and thats absolutely perfect.

Kiting with speed, vanish at the right time, and other things you can avoid some essential mechanics. Thats what the shadow makes better then every other tankclass.

 

Apt comment, IMO.

 

The class is more of a finesse class as a tank then other tank classes IMO. This is true for both the Repug and Imp versions.

 

Some people I think need to just stick with tank classes that operate at a lower required quotient of intelligence.

[mmjarec]

Assasins have their flaws, but in several boss fights they are just superior:

 

- TfB NiM first boss: Vanish after tank switch and you won't receive any small adds so dps can focus on jealous male and then go back to the boss again.

- TfB NiM seconds boss: If you have force leech and you are low on health just vanish from the fight and use your class recovery and you can heal up to 100% even with the debuff

- SV NiM 2nd boss: Resist the dmg from the huge grenade

 

And overall you can use loads of medpacks in a fight whenever your vanish from fight is up.

 

I play a Vanguard tank in NiM progression on Republic side and an Assassin on Imperial. I like them both. My VG is however a little bit more relaxing as I am not that much dependent on RNG while I overall just love to play my assa tank.

 

If you are a skilled Assa tank you can clear TfB Nightmare. If you do not know your class it may be hard.

 

my2pence

 

Droping aggro on bossfights with vanish ok. Also how do you think taking twice as much effort and skill to accomplish the same thing is anyway balanced. You are providing no empirical data just unverifiable ideas

[Andryah]

You are providing no empirical data just unverifiable ideas

 

In fairness.. neither are you. All you are showing is a lack of awareness of the finer points of the class IMO.

 

You want the class to be traditional tank, spank, and stand your ground. It's not. it's for people with finesse and attention to detail.

 

Honestly.. while all classes have some issues, including the cloth tanks..... if you want to play a cloth wearing tank class.. you have to go into it expecting it to be a finesse class.. where smart play is required. Loss of heavy armor is mitigated by having a more complex toolkit. Use the toolkit or play a different class.

[tman_ac]

Droping aggro on bossfights with vanish ok. Also how do you think taking twice as much effort and skill to accomplish the same thing is anyway balanced. You are providing no empirical data just unverifiable ideas

 

That's what I mentioned - my VG tank is more relaxing. I can basically "fall asleep" while tanking NiM Operations. On my assassin I need to faceroll on my keyboard as the pressure is always high to do the right things at any given time.

 

Yes, Assa/Shadow tanks need more skill, but once you are familiar with the class they make the most fun and are totally viable in every given content.

 

So before you accuse me that I don't know of what I am talking about read my previous post once again. I have enough experience on both, my VG and Assassin Tank, to justify my point of view.

Edited August 19, 2013 by tman_ac

[Savej]

Sins have stealth and sap which can be an autowin and/or at least a "get out of death free". They should have to pay for that especially where stealth and sap aren't as useful. In pve they should be viable raid tanks and maybe they aren't atm but for pvp they can be very good as they are now.

[mmjarec]

In fairness.. neither are you. All you are showing is a lack of awareness of the finer points of the class IMO.

 

You want the class to be traditional tank, spank, and stand your ground. It's not. it's for people with finesse and attention to detail.

 

Honestly.. while all classes have some issues, including the cloth tanks..... if you want to play a cloth wearing tank class.. you have to go into it expecting it to be a finesse class.. where smart play is required. Loss of heavy armor is mitigated by having a more complex toolkit. Use the toolkit or play a different class.

 

Actually i have stated multiple times as have others elitist jerks have tons of emprical data backing me up wether you choose to ignore it doesnt mean its not there or otherwise you are t reading everything or are selectively reading

[mmjarec]

Sins have stealth and sap which can be an autowin and/or at least a "get out of death free". They should have to pay for that especially where stealth and sap aren't as useful. In pve they should be viable raid tanks and maybe they aren't atm but for pvp they can be very good as they are now.

 

So i should be less effective because i have a situational cc that other classes have also usually negating my need for it in pve and useless in pvp since its out of combat only. Last i checked sap wasnt much in the way of improving tankig so i should give up primary functionality for an ability that isnt even tank related nor is it required.

 

What kind or warped logic provides that because i can escape battle every few minutes which isnt even guaranteed to work due to dots or aoes means i am somehow more effective at pvp thus need less because i can run away sometimes? Maybee if i had equivalent pvp viability i wouldnt have to run away with vanish only to have it broken and ganked after it fails. Im sorry but sorcs have sprint and two bubbles jugs have intercede mara has force camo and yet i fail to see people calling for a decrease of their prowess because they have an escape mechanism

[gorstram]

OP,

 

Our guild MT is a shadow tank. And one of the best tanks I've ever seen. Maybe you're having issues with how you've balanced your gear, or perhaps your spec is off. Talk to him, his name is Gurthanc and he plays on Pot5. Maybe he can help you.

 

Tell him Finkle sent you.

[mmjarec]

OP,

 

Our guild MT is a shadow tank. And one of the best tanks I've ever seen. Maybe you're having issues with how you've balanced your gear, or perhaps your spec is off. Talk to him, his name is Gurthanc and he plays on Pot5. Maybe he can help you.

 

Tell him Finkle sent you.

 

No. Im no having issues. There is tons of data stating that sin tanks defensive issues are real its not a player skill issue. Go read the data on elitist jerks and then come say its somehow a player issue last i checked they factored out all skill and based it purely on numbers. Im not saying sins cant tank im saying they are not on par with other tanks.

 

Sure your guild mt may be a sin and may be very good. But an average jugg could easily do the same thing with half the effort. Its not a gear or spec issue seeing how they ran their evaluation based on factual statistics. I tank hm 55s fine too just like your guildie perhaps if you were to read more you would realize thats not where the issue arises

[Savej]

So i should be less effective because i have a situational cc that other classes have also usually negating my need for it in pve and useless in pvp since its out of combat only. Last i checked sap wasnt much in the way of improving tankig so i should give up primary functionality for an ability that isnt even tank related nor is it required.

 

What kind or warped logic provides that because i can escape battle every few minutes which isnt even guaranteed to work due to dots or aoes means i am somehow more effective at pvp thus need less because i can run away sometimes? Maybee if i had equivalent pvp viability i wouldnt have to run away with vanish only to have it broken and ganked after it fails. Im sorry but sorcs have sprint and two bubbles jugs have intercede mara has force camo and yet i fail to see people calling for a decrease of their prowess because they have an escape mechanism

 

Yep - stealth, sap, recharge in your opponents face - dot on you or not, kill. Is that fair? in node based games you're hands down the best off-node guards no question - why? Stealth (and sap) are huge in pvp (and solo pve but who cares) - there has to be a tradeoff or everyone should get them. I can't think of any way that isn't logical.

[Andryah]

Sure your guild mt may be a sin and may be very good. But an average jugg could easily do the same thing with half the effort. Its not a gear or spec issue seeing how they ran their evaluation based on factual statistics. I tank hm 55s fine too just like your guildie perhaps if you were to read more you would realize thats not where the issue arises

 

Your claims are incongruent with your choice of thread title.

 

Not surprised you are having issues frankly. You are looking at the class completely wrong. You want the easiest class to play... one you can nap while playing. MMOs are still a form of entertainment where some people like the challenge of playing a class that requires attention to detail and in return rewards the player and the class with top marks in tanking.

 

My point... a sin player being top tank in a raiding guild vs semi-comatose Jugg played by a gerbil... that's something some people actually feel good about. You don't. Hence.. you have no business playing the class..because you want easy-sauce tanking.. so go with the Jugg and stop crying about it IMO.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Andryah

[mmjarec]

Yep - stealth, sap, recharge in your opponents face - dot on you or not, kill. Is that fair? in node based games you're hands down the best off-node guards no question - why? Stealth (and sap) are huge in pvp (and solo pve but who cares) - there has to be a tradeoff or everyone should get them. I can't think of any way that isn't logical.

 

I can. Let me explain. Gurading a node is not pvp its a function of one type of pvp. Pvp esentially is about combat so its okay to suck at combat because you can do one thing in one aspect of one battleground type that isnt even related to the fundamental aspect if pvp which is combat

Last i checked ops could do the exact same thing and they have better actual combat Sorcs can cc. So camping and ccing someone apparently to you is all that is required to be good at pvp. Theres your logi c

[Berjiz]

Assasins have their flaws, but in several boss fights they are just superior:

 

- TfB NiM first boss: Vanish after tank switch and you won't receive any small adds so dps can focus on jealous male and then go back to the boss again.

- TfB NiM seconds boss: If you have force leech and you are low on health just vanish from the fight and use your class recovery and you can heal up to 100% even with the debuff

- SV NiM 2nd boss: Resist the dmg from the huge grenade

 

And overall you can use loads of medpacks in a fight whenever your vanish from fight is up.

 

I play a Vanguard tank in NiM progression on Republic side and an Assassin on Imperial. I like them both. My VG is however a little bit more relaxing as I am not that much dependent on RNG while I overall just love to play my assa tank.

 

If you are a skilled Assa tank you can clear TfB Nightmare. If you do not know your class it may be hard.

 

my2pence

 

Force shroud doesn't work on huge greande in nim. Neither does deflection. Really doubt you done titan 6 nim on your shadow. So 2 out of 12 boses are good and that makes it fine? A few of the others seems pretty equal but a lot of the others are favoured towards the other 2.

[mmjarec]

Your claims are incongruent with your choice of thread title.

 

Not surprised you are having issues frankly. You are looking at the class completely wrong. You want the easiest class to play... one you can nap while playing. MMOs are still a form of entertainment where some people like the challenge of playing a class that requires attention to detail and in return rewards the player and the class with top marks in tanking.

 

My point... a sin player being top tank in a raiding guild vs semi-comatose Jugg played by a gerbil... that's something some people actually feel good about. You don't. Hence.. you have no business playing the class..because you want easy-sauce tanking.. so go with the Jugg and stop crying about it IMO.

 

You are making assumptions that you have no info to validate. I never said i wanted easy i said i wanted equality of function. Right now certain bosses are offlimits to any sin tank regardless of skill spec or gear. So how is that a ceptable? You need to change your sig because its the furthest thing from the truth. Accurate assessments cannot be made on something u know nothing about completely critical and hardly objective

Edited August 20, 2013 by mmjarec
Add

[ApostleThirst]

Question, why do I have higher DPS with the Defense/tanking skill tree than with the Death Field/Lightning charge/DPS skill tree?

[Hockaday]

So much bad in this thread.

 

Seems no one is bothering to read the information. And as for people saying deception is great in PvP...yeah, operative is better.

 

Hopefully the devs will have some answers when they get around to answering the shadow questions.

[mmjarec]

Question, why do I have higher DPS with the Defense/tanking skill tree than with the Death Field/Lightning charge/DPS skill tree?

 

Why woul anyone give a supposed quick striking "asassination" type class a DOT tree is beyond me. I dont care either way as long as its viable but really for their purposes, all three are are invalid

[AlrikFassbauer]

I'll bite.

 

Into what ?

[Ocho-Quatro]

Wow...

 

Acknowledged: In the current state of the game, at the HIGHEST level content, Shadow/Assassins are "spiky" with regard to damage taken when compared to the other tank classes, because they rely the most on RNG. This is a fact.

 

HOWEVER - they are still viable. Guilds are clearing HM TfB/S&V with Shadow/Assassin tanks every week. Guilds have cleared Nightmare content for both, with shadow/assassins in the the raid comp.

 

In everything I have read, and seen in game on both my own assassin tank, and on my healer..... I have the reached the following conclusions regarding the tank classes:

 

• There are good Jugg/Guardians & PT/Vanguards.
  
• There are medicore Jugg/Guardians & PT/Vanguards.
  
• There are bad Jugg/Guardians & PT/Vanguards.
  
• There are good Shadow/Assassins.
  
• There are bad Shadow/Assassins.
  

 

There is no such thing as a "mediocre" Shadow/Assassin tank. You have to tank smarter on a Shadow/Assassin, you have to know which cooldowns to use, and when, based on the damage attacks/types coming your way. You have to know how to avoid certain damage/attacks entirely. If you try to play a Shadow/Assassin, and stack endurance so you have 42k HP and try to tank everything by mashing buttons? Yes, you are going to die. A lot. Healers will hate you, and you will think that they suck as a tanking class. (For some reason, the one class more than any other that I see stack endurance to the high heavens are Shadows/Assassins.... I cry a little on the inside when I am on my healer and I see a Shadow come into our ops group with 40k+ HP in 69 gear.... and I see it a LOT.)

 

TL;DR - Shadow/Assassins are a viable tanking class. They have their flaws. If you think they "suck" however, chances are, you're either doing it wrong, or playing with people that are doing it wrong.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

Inb4lrn2play

 

I'll bite.

 

Lrn2play

 

Self-fulfilling prophecy F2W!