Arenas are coming. And with them the return of Concealment?

[Dragores]

I think it's clear that Operative Damagespeccs are probably the worst dps speccs in game, especially in pvp because of their lack of survivability and utility in comparison to maros and even assasins. Concealement is simply not a specc that can fight for the middle node and cant build up pressure in a zerg.

 

This is why i am very happy about the smaller 4v4 arenas. maybe giving the concealment op a nice boost in their value in pvp.

However i still hope that 2.4 will also bring us some balance changes that buff the operative damagedealer, nerf the guard and nerf the smashers.

 

I havent played my agent for a while and im thinking about going back to him. It's really been frustrating and simply not fun for me to play even in regs.

What do you think?

Edited August 16, 2013 by Dragores

[TheFXedits]

i only play concealment

[jillun]

Unfortunately, it seems to me that the 4vs4 bracket will make lethality matter : constant pressure and big backloaded burst.

I would love concealment to be "viable", but without any change, i don't see that happening solely due to 4vs4.

I play concealment 90% of the time, 10% lethality, which I don't find fun, really.

[Griad]

I think that lethality will be preferable depending on group composition. But how ever concealment is still more fun to play,

[platinumruggo]

Once BW balances the class so that concealment can do the damage it used to to be on par with the other stealth class and can compete in the open environment, then yes. However, with the way things are working on the PTS now, ops are only good for healing.

[Morde_]

First impression: dps operatives still aren't viable for arenas for all the same reasons.

 

Our dps specs need help.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Morde_

[randiesel]

First impression: dps operatives still aren't viable for arenas for all the same reasons.

 

Our dps specs need help.

 

Agreed. Did some arenas today as scrapper and I think they are actually in a slightly better position vs an 8v8 objective based function, but still trumped by deception Sins and snipers.

 

You can still do really well against bad teams, and people who leave you alone, but why would anyone who's good leave a conceal Op unharmed to do damage.

 

I think it'll remain this way though, seeing as the more lethal an Op gets, the more of an annoyance people see us as.

 

Edit: Also worth noting, you can see that BW did some fine tuning with PTs/VGs in 2.4. Read some discontent for the problem BW was addressing with the changes (specifically, PTs saying they need their damage buffed, not their utility), whereas Concealment/Scrapper had zero changes. It's still early on, but I think that this at least serves as evidence that BW doesn't intend on making the Op class more viable in PvP as a DPS.

Edited August 17, 2013 by randiesel

[jillun]

Agreed. Did some arenas today as scrapper and I think they are actually in a slightly better position vs an 8v8 objective based function, but still trumped by deception Sins and snipers.

 

You can still do really well against bad teams, and people who leave you alone, but why would anyone who's good leave a conceal Op unharmed to do damage.

 

I think it'll remain this way though, seeing as the more lethal an Op gets, the more of an annoyance people see us as.

 

Edit: Also worth noting, you can see that BW did some fine tuning with PTs/VGs in 2.4. Read some discontent for the problem BW was addressing with the changes (specifically, PTs saying they need their damage buffed, not their utility), whereas Concealment/Scrapper had zero changes. It's still early on, but I think that this at least serves as evidence that BW doesn't intend on making the Op class more viable in PvP as a DPS.

 

 

Same here.

 

Did a couple of matches with each spec, it really comes down to wether you are against bads or not.

Concealment is not viable because our burst certainly doesn't kill a target that is getting healed up. We can use hs/sf twice a round... it may be kind of worse because there is no way we are getting out of combat without cloak screen. But we feel less squishy than in a 8vs8 setup.

 

Lethality.... well it's just not enough, so clunky and all...

 

I tried a hybrid heal/lethality, but it's useless.

 

I think the main problem in this game is just that it's all burst burst burst, and overpowered heal.

 

(For those who played wow, it's like mop's arenas instead of burning cruisade's).

 

We will see how it goes from there, but I'm getting tired of this.

[Ravashakk]

I don't know if it is a L2P issue or what, but I never have issues with healers 1v1....even op healers. The only time I have issues downing healers is with a tank/peels/cross heals and NO ONE helping me. But should I be downing a healer when he has all that support and I don't? Sounds like working as intended as far as that goes. People are just hesitant to think they are getting outplayed.

[Zackmack]

I don't know if it is a L2P issue or what, but I never have issues with healers 1v1....even op healers. The only time I have issues downing healers is with a tank/peels/cross heals and NO ONE helping me. But should I be downing a healer when he has all that support and I don't? Sounds like working as intended as far as that goes. People are just hesitant to think they are getting outplayed.

 

well said. people complain too much

[mulzii]

they really need to make backstab on par with Maul: both in terms of damage and cooldown.

 

The problem they have with balancing the op's dps is the cc's the op has. Too much burst allows ops to stun-lock folks into death, which isnt a good thing. Lower the cooldown on BS, change stim boost into a 'recklness' type skill that increases the damage and/or crit chance on BS, and change claculated frenzy into lowering CD on stim boost.

 

Heck at this point, i wouldnt mind if they made the knockdown completely fill resolve (to prevent the stun-lock chance), with some significant burst capability..

[Ravashakk]

they really need to make backstab on par with Maul: both in terms of damage and cooldown.

 

The problem they have with balancing the op's dps is the cc's the op has. Too much burst allows ops to stun-lock folks into death, which isnt a good thing. Lower the cooldown on BS, change stim boost into a 'recklness' type skill that increases the damage and/or crit chance on BS, and change claculated frenzy into lowering CD on stim boost.

 

Heck at this point, i wouldnt mind if they made the knockdown completely fill resolve (to prevent the stun-lock chance), with some significant burst capability..

 

You realize assassins are cc machines, right?

 

We have:

8 sec stealth mezz

8 sec aoe mezz

4 sec stun

1.5 sec knockdown with hidden strike with concealment.

 

They have:

8 sec stealth mezz

8 sec single mezz

4 sec mezz

4 sec stun

2 sec knockdown usable out of stealth

 

It is ri-fooking-diculous.

[Morde_]

I don't know if it is a L2P issue or what, but I never have issues with healers 1v1....even op healers. The only time I have issues downing healers is with a tank/peels/cross heals and NO ONE helping me. But should I be downing a healer when he has all that support and I don't? Sounds like working as intended as far as that goes. People are just hesitant to think they are getting outplayed.

 

How often do you get against a healer 1v1?

[Ravashakk]

How often do you get against a healer 1v1?

 

Not 1v1 as in no one is around, but rather no one from either team is helping. I'd say it happens fairly often.

[FoE_Khorne]

How often do you get against a healer 1v1?

 

Surprising often in pug wzs. While I agree that concealment needs a small amount of love, mainly defensive cds or passive defense, I would prefer they not over tune them into FotM. I enjoy playing a class that has a high skill cap. I dont have issues pulling over 1mil with conceal in a longer match or pulling 20+ KBs or killing healers of any class. Something akin to "darkswell" that assassins have is all i would really want and maybe a 30% aoe dr. (wouldnt be necessary if smash was toned down a wee bit) And yes ive even done ranked as concealment. It certainly isnt optimal, but i can work... plus its way more fun than any other spec ive that played on sorc, mara, ops, pt, or sin.

[Gondolindhrim]

Not 1v1 as in no one is around, but rather no one from either team is helping. I'd say it happens fairly often.

I don't think anyone is complaining about Concealment's performance in regs. You're never going to find yourself fighting an unsupported healer in ranked however, which is where the spec is sorely lacking.

[Ravashakk]

I don't think anyone is complaining about Concealment's performance in regs. You're never going to find yourself fighting an unsupported healer in ranked however, which is where the spec is sorely lacking.

 

1. I don't play concealment...I was talking about lethality.

2. RWZs make up such a small % that you can't balance everything around it. Just like u can't balance everything for pve. You balance based on numbers. More regs happen than ranked so when u balance u do it for regs WITH ranked in mind. Not the other way around.

[Gondolindhrim]

1. I don't play concealment...I was talking about lethality.

2. RWZs make up such a small % that you can't balance everything around it. Just like u can't balance everything for pve. You balance based on numbers. More regs happen than ranked so when u balance u do it for regs WITH ranked in mind. Not the other way around.

1. My bad, the thread title confused me. Doesn't change anything though, Lethality is fine for regs (not supposed to be a particularly impressive scoreboard, just happens to be my most recent WZ as Leth).

 

2. I respectfully disagree. Every single spec in the game is viable for regs if you're good. Ranked is where fine tuning balance has the biggest impact and balancing specs around the highest level of play is the only rational decision. It's not like doing that would destroy class balance in regs, anyway. In fact, balancing around regs is what has made Deception the ultimate Regstar spec it is now (referring to Recklessness' cooldown resetting when entering stealth, negligible in ranked but ridiculous in regs). Are you worried that Concealment might become OP in regs if it's buffed for ranked? Because the spec is far from OP even in regs as is.

[Roysten]

1. My bad, the thread title confused me. Doesn't change anything though, Lethality is fine for regs (not supposed to be a particularly impressive scoreboard, just happens to be my most recent WZ as Leth).

 

.

 

Pretty impressive scoreboard though. I think I have the other lethality operative on red eclipse and I hit those numbers in voidstar regs but not a novarre yet. As a spec though it is a bit of a gem that has been overlooked and reminds me of my old madness assassin (before they moved all the deception melee out of reach to normalise the tanks).

My instinct on arenas is that it will take a while to appear but a twinning a lethality op with an Annihilation marauder will be very strong.

[Ravashakk]

1. My bad, the thread title confused me. Doesn't change anything though, Lethality is fine for regs (not supposed to be a particularly impressive scoreboard, just happens to be my most recent WZ as Leth).

 

The thread got modified to include both dps specs somewhere along the line.

 

Posting a SS of a game where your team DOMINATED the other means very little. Sure you did well, but the other team had 3 healers and no dps. You guys had the top 5.

 

http://oi42.tinypic.com/2nv7z9i.jpg - If you want to talk about being viable.

 

2. I respectfully disagree. Every single spec in the game is viable for regs if you're good. Ranked is where fine tuning balance has the biggest impact and balancing specs around the highest level of play is the only rational decision. It's not like doing that would destroy class balance in regs, anyway. In fact, balancing around regs is what has made Deception the ultimate Regstar spec it is now (referring to Recklessness' cooldown resetting when entering stealth, negligible in ranked but ridiculous in regs). Are you worried that Concealment might become OP in regs if it's buffed for ranked? Because the spec is far from OP even in regs as is.

 

If only 16 ppl played ranked would u still think it would be appropriate to balance the majority of your game around it? If not, then you think there is somehow a substantial population that changes that answer to "yes"....and there isn't.

 

When you balance around the top, it affects the largest portion of the population negatively. You want the average player to be able to compete, and good players to be great. But if you balance it around the good players being decent, then the average player gets left in the dust. No business model wants to piss off the majority of their consumers.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Ravashakk

[Mega_Fallos]

Guys. operative haven't enough energy for long combat, your energy will down after 1 min.

[Deviltreh]

I don't know if it is a L2P issue or what, but I never have issues with healers 1v1....even op healers. The only time I have issues downing healers is with a tank/peels/cross heals and NO ONE helping me. But should I be downing a healer when he has all that support and I don't? Sounds like working as intended as far as that goes. People are just hesitant to think they are getting outplayed.

 

Yes it's L2P issue for healers.

[Ravashakk]

Yes it's L2P issue for healers.

 

Clear example of the dunning-Kruger effect. You can't do it, I can...healers I killed HAD to be bad! Law of averages would suggest that there would be at least a few good healers.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Ravashakk

[DresG]

I honestly think Operative DPS is fine, I play leth almost exclusively tho, conc feels boring to me.

[JohnElias]

I honestly think Operative DPS is fine, I play leth almost exclusively tho, conc feels boring to me.

 

You said it yourself. Operative DPS is fine!

 

Oh wait...

 

You play Lethality.