When can we expect a DPS balance patch?

[bbrooks]

I've posted this in other threads and I'll post it again here. The reasoning for "pure DPS" classes to out dps "hybrids" is extremely flawed. The fact of the matter is, enrage timers are a large part of this game. Doing anything possible to avoid these will make any raid group better.

 

I've always liked this example, If maras and snipers were doing the exact same dps as the other classes would they still have raid spots? Of course they would, because they have the best raid utility in the game.

 

In a perfect world all dps would be completely balanced, with utility separating them. In a less but still more acceptable world, some classes would have inherently higher dps, but would fall behind in the utility. The problem with SWTOR currently is the classes that bring the most raid utility are the exact classes that are topping the damage meters.

 

Even if content is clearable running 4 shadow dpsers. that does not make it optimal and that group will have significantly more trouble clearing anything than a equally skilled group running 3 snipers and a marauder. I play mostly "hybrid" classes, not because I like the option of respeccing, but because those are the classes whose playstyle I most enjoy. Should I really be punished because my Lightning sorc has the option of going corruption even though I do not heal for my raid team?

 

It honestly comes down to balancing DPS and utility. Being able to respec is not utility. Do off heals help? Of course, but at the cost of stunting your DPS. Bioware needs to reexamine how they decide class balance. Even damage and even utility should be aimed for, but currently Snipers/Maras have the highest of both for the most part.

[ArchangelLBC]

 

Perhaps our difference in opinion comes from our difference in backgrounds; I am still fairly new to SW:tOR (I have only been playing since February/March) but my main MMO background comes from the 6 years I spent in WoW, 3 of which were in extremely high-end raiding guilds. I have seen the reality of hybrid DPS brining more utility than pure leading to those players, no matter the skill, being benched. The best example of the two sides of the coin are both from The Burning Crusade: Shadow Priests and Shamans.

 

Shadow Priest DPS was immensely complex and completely impotent. Their only saving grace was that through DPS they restored mana and health and because of this they became a necessity in high-end raids simply to keep healer's mana pools up. Shamans on the other hand (Restoration, Enhancement, and Elemental) were all fairly decent with the best being Restoration. Yet they also brought Bloodlust which in end-game content became vital to progression. In spite of being slightly less potent than Holy Priests at AoE healing, Shamans began to usurp raid spots (or Paladins if there were more of them) simply because without Bloodlust, there were bosses that just could not be downed.

 

Now, that said there is no comparable utility to that in SW:tOR and as of yet there is no fight that requires that level of Min/Maxing but my fear comes form a reality I have seen happen. That is why I get a bit heated when I see claims of this happening in SW:tOR because it has not.

 

I never really played WoW at all, but your experience does shed some light on your perspective.

 

The thing to keep in mind is that hybrid DPS, as in a class that is brought both to DPS AND do something like heal, isn't really a thing in SWTOR. No one's bringing a gunnery commando to fill a healing role while also bringing much better damage than a Combat Medic Commando. The heals are a nice little perk, but it's not nearly the same thing right now, and before Kolto bomb is was down right laughable. I always felt this was intentional design to prevent exactly the kind of thing you're worried about.

 

Your bloodlust example is interesting because I'm given to understand by others that played WoW that bloodlust was the analog of our very own inspiration.

 

Lets face it, when you need to do a lot of DPS quickly, inspiration is the best buff in the game.

 

My worry, for what it's worth, is that with any sort of decently significant DPS difference then if truly tight DPS checks ever do occur, we'll see all other DPS classes that aren't sniper or mara being pushed out. Heck even though it wasn't even necessary, people were already crying the sky was falling and claiming that 1 mara and 3 snipers was the only way to down it. Thankfully, those proved to be panic induced reactions (the first clear I believe had an arsenal merc and a vengeance jugg). But you and I both know this is as much a perception game as anything, and right now inspiration in particular is often seen as needed.

 

Like you, I don't want any DPS to be pushed out because other classes are considered required. On the utility front I honestly think that BW has done a decent job balancing that kind of thing, which is why I feel damage should be similarly balanced. That way you truly can always take player over class.

[kennethdale]

he thing to keep in mind is that hybrid DPS, as in a class that is brought both to DPS AND do something like heal, isn't really a thing in SWTOR. No one's bringing a gunnery commando to fill a healing role while also bringing much better damage than a Combat Medic Commando. The heals are a nice little perk, but it's not nearly the same thing right now, and before Kolto bomb is was down right laughable. I always felt this was intentional design to prevent exactly the kind of thing you're worried about.

 

To clarify: there were no classes that truly were in a raid to fill two slots. Shadow Priest heals were on par with Annihilation Marauders. I use the word "hybrid" in reference to the fact that the class is able to fill more than one role not in reference to their ability to fill two roles in one spec.

 

Your bloodlust example is interesting because I'm given to understand by others that played WoW that bloodlust was the analog of our very own inspiration.

 

I have heard/seen this before and I didn't mention it because of how far off of the mark it is. Bloodlust increased Haste (similar to Alacrity) of party members (not raid wide) by 30% for 40 seconds. This reduced the global cooldown as well and could also reduce it below 1 second. Purely in terms of usage, the two skills are quite analogous; guilds often would move Shamans into and out of groups to keep the Bloodlust rolling on the top DPS just as some guilds do this with Bloodthirst but in terms of actual damage output look instead at Zen (which for Combat increases alacrity by 30%) and the effect this has on skills like Master Strike. Now put that on 4 of your top DPS for 40 seconds. This boosted DPS by 25-30% depending on how long it was chained and how much Haste the players had innately which in terms of normal raid SW:tOR DPS (approximately 2800) means the dps would increase by about 1200 as opposed to the 90-120 provided by BT. That is why Bloodlust became make or break for raids and why there were certain bosses that were just not possible without it. This isn't all completely relevant but I thought it warranted clarification.

 

My worry, for what it's worth, is that with any sort of decently significant DPS difference then if truly tight DPS checks ever do occur, we'll see all other DPS classes that aren't sniper or mara being pushed out. Heck even though it wasn't even necessary, people were already crying the sky was falling and claiming that 1 mara and 3 snipers was the only way to down it. Thankfully, those proved to be panic induced reactions (the first clear I believe had an arsenal merc and a vengeance jugg). But you and I both know this is as much a perception game as anything, and right now inspiration in particular is often seen as needed.

 

You are absolutely right, that first kill included arguably the best Arsenal Merc and Vengeance Jugg I know of. Which is a perfect example of how balanced DPS is in this game right now (aside from the issues already listed). The changes I see as necessary however make it so the numbers produced by those elite 1% are more attainable by every player in more situations.

 

Like you, I don't want any DPS to be pushed out because other classes are considered required. On the utility front I honestly think that BW has done a decent job balancing that kind of thing, which is why I feel damage should be similarly balanced. That way you truly can always take player over class.

 

The issue I see here is that as of right now, without exception you can bring the player not the class. Even Shadow/Sin DPS is manageable when performed by a skilled player and those players are still often as not raiding on their Shadow/Sin. That is why I am argue against making significant changes.

[ArchangelLBC]

To clarify: there were no classes that truly were in a raid to fill two slots. Shadow Priest heals were on par with Annihilation Marauders. I use the word "hybrid" in reference to the fact that the class is able to fill more than one role not in reference to their ability to fill two roles in one spec.

 

Fair enough, but both your examples were what in FFXI we called support classes, whose sole purpose is to provide buffs to everyone else. Those kinds of classes don't actually exist in SWTOR.

 

 

I have heard/seen this before and I didn't mention it because of how far off of the mark it is. Bloodlust increased Haste (similar to Alacrity) of party members (not raid wide) by 30% for 40 seconds. This reduced the global cooldown as well and could also reduce it below 1 second. Purely in terms of usage, the two skills are quite analogous; guilds often would move Shamans into and out of groups to keep the Bloodlust rolling on the top DPS just as some guilds do this with Bloodthirst but in terms of actual damage output look instead at Zen (which for Combat increases alacrity by 30%) and the effect this has on skills like Master Strike. Now put that on 4 of your top DPS for 40 seconds. This boosted DPS by 25-30% depending on how long it was chained and how much Haste the players had innately which in terms of normal raid SW:tOR DPS (approximately 2800) means the dps would increase by about 1200 as opposed to the 90-120 provided by BT. That is why Bloodlust became make or break for raids and why there were certain bosses that were just not possible without it. This isn't all completely relevant but I thought it warranted clarification.

 

Well lets be fair, the only reason we aren't already seeing that with Inspiration is the super long cooldown on it. Even then I've seen 16 mans stacking 4 or 5 sentinels to double stack inspiration on your DPS groups. There's the drawback of the DPS lost by the sentinels unable to build centering, but based on what the devs said that's going to soon become a thing of the past.

 

You are absolutely right, that first kill included arguably the best Arsenal Merc and Vengeance Jugg I know of. Which is a perfect example of how balanced DPS is in this game right now (aside from the issues already listed). The changes I see as necessary however make it so the numbers produced by those elite 1% are more attainable by every player in more situations.

 

We agree completely on this front.

 

The issue I see here is that as of right now, without exception you can bring the player not the class. Even Shadow/Sin DPS is manageable when performed by a skilled player and those players are still often as not raiding on their Shadow/Sin. That is why I am argue against making significant changes.

 

In order to really take a shadow you HAVE to take a top 1% shadow. Taking player over class means you should be able to take an average player regardless of class. Like you though, I think that simple QoL buffs will indeed fix the majority of problems.

[Benets]

They don't care at all. I say same thing you're saying for a long long time. You can always see a melee, like JK top dps, with something like 900k dps when others keep 600k. Specially sage that have no dfense.

 

If you see the community class representative they said that, about survivability. Cos' its an obivious thing, evrybody knows that, bioware probly know that (if they don't know, they're dumb - it's a likely hipothesis).

 

But they'll not change, cos' they only care about money, so they keep doing "new" stuff in cartel market and let game keep screwd.

 

Their greed will make them lose profity at long temrs, cos it's matter of time people flee of this game again when they notice that's the same old **** and imbalanced.

 

I think they go to suggestion forums choose the good ones and delet and keep the worst suggestions.

[kennethdale]

They don't care at all. I say same thing you're saying for a long long time. You can always see a melee, like JK top dps, with something like 900k dps when others keep 600k. Specially sage that have no dfense.

 

If you see the community class representative they said that, about survivability. Cos' its an obivious thing, evrybody knows that, bioware probly know that (if they don't know, they're dumb - it's a likely hipothesis).

 

But they'll not change, cos' they only care about money, so they keep doing "new" stuff in cartel market and let game keep screwd.

 

Their greed will make them lose profity at long temrs, cos it's matter of time people flee of this game again when they notice that's the same old **** and imbalanced.

 

I think they go to suggestion forums choose the good ones and delet and keep the worst suggestions.

 

Wow...so much...wow. Okay, lets just jump right in:

 

First off, are you referring to DAMAGE not DPS? And specifically in Warzones? If so, I frequently do more damage than Snipers/Gunslingers and Knights/Warriors on my Assassin simply by making sure I am always in the right spot at the right time and get out before things get rough, but that aside, damage done in a Warzone is absolutely irrelevant. By the same token, I have had the lowest damage on my team but can honestly say I single-handedly won it by solo-ninja-capping when everyone else was off trying fighting in the middle of nowhere. If you are simply concerned with damage done in PvP then you're doing it wrong. If you are referring to DPS in PvE then your numbers are SIGNIFICANTLY off since in reality the gap between the best of each class is much closer to 7% than the 33% you listed, which some still argue is too much (ArchAngel).

 

I have kept my 2p out of the Sage/Sorc discussions on lack of defensive cooldowns simply because I knew my arguments would fall on deaf ears, but I'll say it here: A free, instant cast ~6k self-heal ; an instant cast ~6k absorb that can be talented to self-heal or mez; a free, instant cast knock-back that can be talented to heal and or root; a free, instant cast speed buff on a short CD that can be talented to remove roots; a free, instant cast 10 second long immunity bubble; and the ability to cast heals without changing stances, resetting resource pool, or negatively affecting yourself at all (save for ability costs) is a whole LOT of defensive abilities. Of all my characters, my Sorc has the best survivability in PvP simply because he can kite and keep his health up so well. In PvE, its true that Sorcs take a bit more damage but they also wear light armor. What do you expect?

 

Truthfully, your post is BARELY coherent and so I'm not 100% sure what it is you want besides obviously to slag off on Bioware which if you hate them so much, why continue to play their game?

[Snarkasms]

A free, instant cast ~6k self-heal ; an instant cast ~6k absorb that can be talented to self-heal or mez; a free, instant cast knock-back that can be talented to heal and or root; a free, instant cast speed buff on a short CD that can be talented to remove roots; a free, instant cast 10 second long immunity bubble; and the ability to cast heals without changing stances, resetting resource pool, or negatively affecting yourself at all (save for ability costs) is a whole LOT of defensive abilities.

 

I agree with you on most points, but let's break down what we're talking about.

 

Instant cast self-heal: free, no skill points required

Instant-cast force armor: free, no skill points required

Knockback: free, no skill points required

 

Stun bonus to force armor: requires minimum 17 points in telekinetics

Heal bonus to force armor: requires minimum 22 points in seer

Heal bonus to knockback: requires minimum 2 points in seer

Root bonus to knockback: requires minimum 27 points in telekinetics

Force speed bonus to remove slows/roots: requires minimum 17 points in seer

Healing force requirement reductions: 3 points on second tier, all points on third tier, heal bonus on sixth tier, all seer

 

On top of that, let's not forget: the force armor self-heal is only active for as long as the armor is *effective* - as soon as an 8k crit demolishes it, you're down 2k HP, and no more (1% of HP every second) self-heals for the next 20 or 30 seconds due to the debuff.

 

With a cap of 46 points, the best you appear to be able to do is hybrid yourself to 4 of these at once in a 19-27-0 build, and you sacrifice a lot to get there - no turbulence, so no auto-crits; no shield-heal bonus; no heal trance, so the only bonus heal you get is the HoT; no resplendence or heal bonuses; no AOE heal; not even the WP bonus in the balance tree.

 

So yes, you're correct, all of those abilities are *available* to sages, but you can only really get half of them in practical applications, and if you gun for 4, you're hamstringing yourself in other areas. A heal/burst hybrid built for escaping doesn't sound very useful in PVP to me, but admittedly, I don't PVP very much.

[kennethdale]

I agree with you on most points, but let's break down what we're talking about.

 

Instant cast self-heal: free, no skill points required

Instant-cast force armor: free, no skill points required

Knockback: free, no skill points required

 

Stun bonus to force armor: requires minimum 17 points in telekinetics

Heal bonus to force armor: requires minimum 22 points in seer

Heal bonus to knockback: requires minimum 2 points in seer

Root bonus to knockback: requires minimum 27 points in telekinetics

Force speed bonus to remove slows/roots: requires minimum 17 points in seer

Healing force requirement reductions: 3 points on second tier, all points on third tier, heal bonus on sixth tier, all seer

 

On top of that, let's not forget: the force armor self-heal is only active for as long as the armor is *effective* - as soon as an 8k crit demolishes it, you're down 2k HP, and no more (1% of HP every second) self-heals for the next 20 or 30 seconds due to the debuff.

 

With a cap of 46 points, the best you appear to be able to do is hybrid yourself to 4 of these at once in a 19-27-0 build, and you sacrifice a lot to get there - no turbulence, so no auto-crits; no shield-heal bonus; no heal trance, so the only bonus heal you get is the HoT; no resplendence or heal bonuses; no AOE heal; not even the WP bonus in the balance tree.

 

So yes, you're correct, all of those abilities are *available* to sages, but you can only really get half of them in practical applications, and if you gun for 4, you're hamstringing yourself in other areas. A heal/burst hybrid built for escaping doesn't sound very useful in PVP to me, but admittedly, I don't PVP very much.

 

The same however is true for Marauders. We can't spec into multiple versions of our utility talents (save for Cloak of Pain but the one with Retaliation is absolute garbage)

[ArchangelLBC]

The same however is true for Marauders. We can't spec into multiple versions of our utility talents (save for Cloak of Pain but the one with Retaliation is absolute garbage)

 

All maras get 4 very good defensive cooldowns though regardless of spec.

[kennethdale]

All maras get 4 very good defensive cooldowns though regardless of spec.

 

Undying Rage, Force Camo, Saber Ward, and what else? Are you counting Predation which is useless unless in Carnage since the speed boost is so tiny? Or Cloak of Pain which is meh when not specced but only really viable in Rage since its damage is boosted and its duration increased? I mean, honestly I would drop Cloak of Pain in a heartbeat for a instant cast self-heal or guaranteed absorb mechanic but that would just be stupid OP. Maras also don't have a hard stun or a knockback though...there are give and takes.

 

If you really want a scape-goat for DCDs, Snipers are much better: Immunity to interrupt/knockbacks, untalented root on knockback, immunity to primary offensive gap closers, increased stealth detection untalented, shield and that's without even looking at their tree and never having played one past 11. You could even make an argument against DPS Juggs since they have Saber Reflect, Saber Ward, Endure Pain, Enraged Defense, AND heavy armor.

 

Arch, I'm not trying to say that maras need more CDs, simply that I disagree that Sorcs are just so screwed when it comes to them. In truth, the only class I think that really needs better CDs (aside from the glaring issue with Shroud) is Merc/Mando since they don't get a true speed boost/gap closer, their only immunity to interrupt comes in the form of a bright blaringly blue/orange shield, Kolto Overload/Adrenaline Rush is completely unviable in everything, and Jet Boost has a COST. All of that is utterly ridiculous and compared to any other class is MASSIVELY under-powered. The only benefit they get is the Heavy Armor but without any type of CD to capitalize on that its worthless.

[Slicksteezin]

Although there are most definately some class balancing issues, i think it is a subject complained about more than it deserves.

 

Right now, I see DPS powertech/vanguard as the only class in a (***?) spot. It is far too unbalanced to be a competitive class at the moment, regardless of who is behind the keyboard.

 

That being said, the majority of the other classes are just a L2P situation. I know it sounds cliche, but all other classes are capable of wreaking havoc. (Sorc DPS.. debatable)

[kennethdale]

Although there are most definately some class balancing issues, i think it is a subject complained about more than it deserves.

 

Right now, I see DPS powertech/vanguard as the only class in a (***?) spot. It is far too unbalanced to be a competitive class at the moment, regardless of who is behind the keyboard.

 

That being said, the majority of the other classes are just a L2P situation. I know it sounds cliche, but all other classes are capable of wreaking havoc. (Sorc DPS.. debatable)

 

O.o Wow, I am completely against most of the "balancing" people want and I disagree with everything you have to say based entirely on FACT. PT/VG Hybrid DPS is actually very competitive (and considering the buffs to AP/Tactics it seems that it could become much more competitive), as is Sorc DPS in 3 different specs (Lightning, Madness, and Madness Hybrid). The only class that has REAL issues right now is Assassin/Shadow because Deception/Infiltration has absolutely 0 sustained damage aside from thrash spamming and even that has to be broken up and Madness/Balance which requires managing three DoTs, multiple Procs, and a myriad of cooldowns with near-perfection 100% of the time in order to be JUST below any other class. Those are facts. I'm not sure where you pulled your information from but I'm guessing its a place that doesn't get enough sunshine...

[Slicksteezin]

O.o Wow, I am completely against most of the "balancing" people want and I disagree with everything you have to say based entirely on FACT. PT/VG Hybrid DPS is actually very competitive (and considering the buffs to AP/Tactics it seems that it could become much more competitive), as is Sorc DPS in 3 different specs (Lightning, Madness, and Madness Hybrid). The only class that has REAL issues right now is Assassin/Shadow because Deception/Infiltration has absolutely 0 sustained damage aside from thrash spamming and even that has to be broken up and Madness/Balance which requires managing three DoTs, multiple Procs, and a myriad of cooldowns with near-perfection 100% of the time in order to be JUST below any other class. Those are facts. I'm not sure where you pulled your information from but I'm guessing its a place that doesn't get enough sunshine...

 

Where did i pull that information? Hmm maybe my 55 powertech i've played since launch. Take a look at any thread in the PT class forums too. Powertech/vanguards are **** right now, and 2.4 isn't changing it.

 

As for sorc, yes i have seen sorc pull competitive numbers - but their DPS is still obsolete to Sniper/Arsnal Merc/Marauder DPS. If played right i will agree sorc can woop ***

Edited August 23, 2013 by Slicksteezin

[ArchangelLBC]

Undying Rage, Force Camo, Saber Ward, and what else? Are you counting Predation which is useless unless in Carnage since the speed boost is so tiny? Or Cloak of Pain which is meh when not specced but only really viable in Rage since its damage is boosted and its duration increased? I mean, honestly I would drop Cloak of Pain in a heartbeat for a instant cast self-heal or guaranteed absorb mechanic but that would just be stupid OP. Maras also don't have a hard stun or a knockback though...there are give and takes.

 

If you really want a scape-goat for DCDs, Snipers are much better: Immunity to interrupt/knockbacks, untalented root on knockback, immunity to primary offensive gap closers, increased stealth detection untalented, shield and that's without even looking at their tree and never having played one past 11. You could even make an argument against DPS Juggs since they have Saber Reflect, Saber Ward, Endure Pain, Enraged Defense, AND heavy armor.

 

Arch, I'm not trying to say that maras need more CDs, simply that I disagree that Sorcs are just so screwed when it comes to them. In truth, the only class I think that really needs better CDs (aside from the glaring issue with Shroud) is Merc/Mando since they don't get a true speed boost/gap closer, their only immunity to interrupt comes in the form of a bright blaringly blue/orange shield, Kolto Overload/Adrenaline Rush is completely unviable in everything, and Jet Boost has a COST. All of that is utterly ridiculous and compared to any other class is MASSIVELY under-powered. The only benefit they get is the Heavy Armor but without any type of CD to capitalize on that its worthless.

 

Cloak of Pain is 20% DR on a 1 minute cooldown that lasts potentially for 30 seconds before spec. Nevermind the damage it might reciprocate, that's an amazing ability even without the focus specced increased uptime. I'd hand up my shield probe on sniper for my sent's cloak of pain in a heart beat.

 

You talk about sniper DCDs, but baseline, they're honestly not all that (just for DCDs. Stealth detection isn't a DCD). They have shield probe, dodge/evasion, entrench, and the shield. The shield is a 3 minute cooldown and only provides as much DR as Cloak of Pain (I know it's a huge area, but that isn't my point). Shield Probe is one absorb, Dodge is 3 seconds of melee/ranged evasion and isn't nearly as useful as Undying Rage (though it does cleanse nastiness). Entrench is pretty awesome for preventing stuns, but won't reduce your damage taken unless you spec into it in marksman, and that only AoE damage. Force Camo and UR ALONE are better than the entire sniper defensive suite outside entrench. All that other utility is certainly noteworthy, but I've always considered that to be something that all the ranged classes could seriously use in some form or another (especially leap/interrupt immunity).

 

The thing with sorcs, is in a lot of ways, once you catch them, they are indeed screwed. You have to be really good at running away, but when they catch you they will kill you. I can understand sorcs not wanting to feel like it's run or die.

 

I agree with you entirely where merc/commandos are concerned. There's a reason they were pretty easily the worst PVP class pre-2.0. At least now they can get out some burst without 3 GR/TM setup, but it's stupidly RNG dependent, and even though they're MILES ahead of where they were now that we have a decent heal on the move and hold the line, we still could stand something like good interrupt immunity (the only thing we have comes from speccing into the middle of the combat medic tree, which puts DR out of reach, and you're done). Their lack of any kind of baseline slow or root is also, and continues to be LUDICROUS (no I don't count electronet because of the cooldown). They have no good way to put people at range and KEEP them there, and dear God don't get me started on Adrenaline Rush, but that's a different conversation. My point was just that Maras have 4 good defensive cooldowns, and they run the gamut from Oh crap buttons like Undying Rage, all the way to a 50% uptime 20% DR buff. Oh! Did I mention that my sentinel in focus spec in 69s and 72s (for armorings anyway) has more damage reduction BEFORE rebuke than my full 72 geared Commando? Cause that's hilarious.

[Rafe_Vidar]

Where did i pull that information? Hmm maybe my 55 powertech i've played since launch. Take a look at any thread in the PT class forums too. Powertech/vanguards are **** right now, and 2.4 isn't changing it.

 

As for sorc, yes i have seen sorc pull competitive numbers - but their DPS is still obsolete to Sniper/Arsnal Merc/Marauder DPS. If played right i will agree sorc can woop ***

 

You're either trolling or incredibly disconnected. If you're talking pvp I could see your reasoning, if you're talking pve ... Lolwut.

 

PTs are very viable via hybrid and in some fights AP actually pulls ahead. Assassins are terribly broken, pve wise. When played perfectly madness is able to perform enough to stay several hundred dps behind. Assassins are in the worst spot in balance reformation, though I'd agree that pyro is not better by much except they have the option of hybrid.

[AscendentReality]

While having my first class as a PT, I can see where some of you are coming from. Here is how I see it, you don't have to agree with it, but this SHOULD be how it is.

 

The pure dps classes should and have to do more DPS, do they have to do significantly more? No, absolutely not, and they shouldn't. As long as the other dps classes are competitive, and still able to down bosses, I see absolutely no reason why the pure dps should have a little inherent advantage. Listen, not everyone is a top end raider, I know a friend who is horrible at marauder, and frankly speaking, he will never be good on a marauder. Fortunately for him, he has alts. There are people who don't have that same luxury, it will take a long time to reroll, and they have no other option but to do DPS, if all dps class output potential is exactly the same, what is he supposed to do if he is unable to improve, not because of lack of effort?

A PT can just turn around and say, well, I realized I'm not a good dps, my skills as a dps is lacking, so I will learn to tank instead. An operative (might I add is doing amazing damage already as of now with lethality), can turn around and say, well, I can heal instead.

Snipers and marauders have zero options left to them other than reroll if they can't pull ahead, and there would be much lesser reason and logic behind rolling a marauder or sniper at all.

 

I think Bioware made an inherent mistake by making pure dps classes in the first place. The moment that decision is made, it is a given right, that they HAVE to do more damage, even if it's slight. They cannot ever stand on equal footing as the other ACs.

[Chemic_al]

I think Bioware made an inherent mistake by making pure dps classes in the first place. The moment that decision is made, it is a given right, that they HAVE to do more damage, even if it's slight. They cannot ever stand on equal footing as the other ACs.

 

Yeah I agree, it was a mistake, but not only that but they didn't give the other ACs enough utility to compensate, because as it stands both maras and snipers bring an awful lot in terms of utility that other ACs don't.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Chemic_al

[AscendentReality]

Yeah I agree, it was a mistake, but not only that but they didn't give the other ACs enough utility to compensate, because as it stands both maras and snipers bring an awful lot in terms of utility that other ACs don't.

 

At the same time, they have the option to re-roll into another role , if they are no longer capable of doing their given role at this time. In fact, in the nightmare parses thread, A operative who is putting some high parses was once a healer, his raid needed a more competent dps, so he stepped up to be one. Let's assume if he was a marauder or sniper. What choice does he have now beside rerolling or be kicked, or just watch your raid fail longer repeatedly.

I think people discount the idea of having multiple roles far too much.

 

On my operative, having that field respec, I can do whatever I want in flashpoints, raids, pvp, whatever it is. On my PT, I can pull enough numbers to easily down any HM content, while it's not in nm progression like my marauder, he is only 69 geared. Too many alt raids, was I able to say, well, our pug is not cutting it, so kick him and grab a dps in here, I'll tank X.

The utility of having multiple roles is significant. I don't see how you guys see nothing else but numbers. Hatred don't use snipers. The world first down on un-nerfed DG drop it like its hoth also did it with Jug dps, sorc dps, etc.

What does that tell you? That was a "mathematically impossible fight" for DPS check. Yet people downed it, not with two marauder and two snipers. It means the other classes is close enough in term of damage in order to down bosses. Remember, downing bosses in the most primary goal of raiding, and the only objective.

 

Before I end this, I'll leave with one last example. Before my guild dropped to an 8 man nm progression from 16, our GM an operative, who is one of the highest dps , and definitely the most raid aware dps we have. During our 16 tenure, there were many occasions, where his off heals, or full respect into full heals help us clear content.

 

This utility you speak of already exist, and it's one of the biggest utility you can get. Just because you don't use it, doesn't mean it's not there. Albeit there is still sin dps , who is actually in need of a buff, I seriously see no point to all these complains for the other ACs.

Edited August 24, 2013 by AscendentReality

[Rafe_Vidar]

At the same time, they have the option to re-roll into another role , if they are no longer capable of doing their given role at this time. In fact, in the nightmare parses thread, A operative who is putting some high parses was once a healer, his raid needed a more competent dps, so he stepped up to be one. Let's assume if he was a marauder or sniper. What choice does he have now beside rerolling or be kicked, or just watch your raid fail longer repeatedly.

I think people discount the idea of having multiple roles far too much.

 

On my operative, having that field respect, I can do whatever I want in flashpoints, raids, pvp, whatever it is. On my PT, I can pull enough numbers to easily down any HM content, while it's not in nm progression like my marauder, he is only 69 geared. Too many alt raids, was I able to say, well, our pug is not cutting it, so kick him and grab a dps in here, I'll tank X.

The utility of having multiple roles is significant. I don't see how you guys see nothing else but numbers. Hatred don't use snipers. The world first down on un-nerfed DG drop it like its hoth also did it with Jug dps, sorc dps, etc.

What does that tell you? That was a "mathematically impossible fight" for DPS check. Yet people downed it, not with two marauder and two snipers. It means the other classes is close enough in term of damage in order to down bosses. Remember, downing bosses in the most primary goal of raiding, and the only objective.

 

Before I end this, I'll leave with one last example. Before my guild dropped to an 8 man nm progression from 16, our GM an operative, who is one of the highest dps , and definitely the most raid aware dps we have. During our 16 tenure, there were many occasions, where his off heals, or full respect into full heals help us clear content.

 

This utility you speak of already exist, and it's one of the biggest utility you can get. Just because you don't use it, doesn't mean it's not there. Albeit there is still sin dps , who is actually in need of a buff, I seriously see no point to all these complains for the other ACs.

 

 

Not only do I agree but I love your arguement and its portrayal. Though I would add that PT hybrid needs to be toned down and Pyrotech needs steroids. I say this because Bioware doesn't want hybrids to be viable but PT need to have 3 valid specs..not two and a half. Assassin dps legitimately pisses me the hell off. It is my most favorite class and there's nothing I enjoy more than playing it. Lethality Operative is a nice reprieve but I want my Assassin back! I don't want buffs with a heavy hand to make Assassins in XX spec FOTM, I just want to be competitive and assassins to be WANTED in pve content. I'd also love for them to have a useful (read: worth using, such as other classes) 51 ability rather than the current lolport.

[ArchangelLBC]

At the same time, they have the option to re-roll into another role , if they are no longer capable of doing their given role at this time. In fact, in the nightmare parses thread, A operative who is putting some high parses was once a healer, his raid needed a more competent dps, so he stepped up to be one. Let's assume if he was a marauder or sniper. What choice does he have now beside rerolling or be kicked, or just watch your raid fail longer repeatedly.

I think people discount the idea of having multiple roles far too much.

 

On my operative, having that field respec, I can do whatever I want in flashpoints, raids, pvp, whatever it is. On my PT, I can pull enough numbers to easily down any HM content, while it's not in nm progression like my marauder, he is only 69 geared. Too many alt raids, was I able to say, well, our pug is not cutting it, so kick him and grab a dps in here, I'll tank X.

The utility of having multiple roles is significant. I don't see how you guys see nothing else but numbers. Hatred don't use snipers. The world first down on un-nerfed DG drop it like its hoth also did it with Jug dps, sorc dps, etc.

What does that tell you? That was a "mathematically impossible fight" for DPS check. Yet people downed it, not with two marauder and two snipers. It means the other classes is close enough in term of damage in order to down bosses. Remember, downing bosses in the most primary goal of raiding, and the only objective.

 

Before I end this, I'll leave with one last example. Before my guild dropped to an 8 man nm progression from 16, our GM an operative, who is one of the highest dps , and definitely the most raid aware dps we have. During our 16 tenure, there were many occasions, where his off heals, or full respect into full heals help us clear content.

 

This utility you speak of already exist, and it's one of the biggest utility you can get. Just because you don't use it, doesn't mean it's not there. Albeit there is still sin dps , who is actually in need of a buff, I seriously see no point to all these complains for the other ACs.

 

Functionally speaking, rerolling another entire AC isn't that difficult. Indeed, rerolling is something you should do anyway, especially as a raid leader, because you should know the tools that other classes have, and how easy or hard they are to use. It's idiots who have never played sorc DPS who actually think any off heal but the bubble is worth casting in a raid situation where DPS matters.

 

Yes I've had sages who normally DPS respec to heals because we needed another healer, but that was a LOT easier pre-2.0 when they didn't need accuracy gear. Trying to seriously do it now requires almost a completely different gear set, with accompanying augments, and it is not really a utility.

 

We have a commando in our guild who often these days fills a healing role for us....on his scoundrel. The ability to fill another role is literally insignificant the second people have alts.

 

Furthermore, and much more importantly, some people who are good at DPS are absolutely not cut out to be tanks or healers (and vice versa). My first class was a commando. It's still the one I love the most. But as a DPS. I do not have, nor have I ever had, the right mindset for a healer, and I sure as hell don't have the gear set for it. I do enjoy tanking, and if that's what my guild needs I'm happy to tank, on my tanking class. That's what alts are for, and so all your examples are irrelevant because I've had snipers say the same thing as you. "just find another DPS, I'll go heals" and then they switch to their operative. Thus the utility of multiple roles is ultimately trumped by the utility of having multiple toons.

 

The fact is that when a sage is slotted as a DPS, they're being slotted as a DPS. Period. That's it. Whatever extra utility they can bring is certainly nice, but every DPS class brings varying amounts of extra utility, including the pure DPS classes whose utility is arguably better than anyone trying to off tank or off heal.

 

Everything else you said is a rehash of older arguments in this very thread and you should go read it or kindly shut up.

[kennethdale]

Now arch, you and I have had this very argument and we essentially agreed to disagree because in the end we both had opinions and that was it. Your opinion being what you just outlined and mine the opposite (I firmly believe that if you are actively raiding on a character you should be able and geared to play all specs; its why I have two sets on damn near all of my toons). Now, however, we have an answer directly from bioware and while you are obviously entitled to disagree with their design intention you can no longer argue that it isn't their design intention. By no means do I think it is possible to have two or more completely itemized seta of gear but if you aren't at least trying to make sure your took is playable in all of its specs, I am sorry, but you are not someone I would want in my raid because without that knowledge you simply aren't playing your class to ita maximum potential. Bioware does view off heals as utility and I am willing to extrapolate they feel the same about an off taunt. While you can argue that it shouldn't be that way, you just cannot argue that it isn't anymore.

[Chemic_al]

Your opinion being what you just outlined and mine the opposite (I firmly believe that if you are actively raiding on a character you should be able and geared to play all specs

 

Well I have to agree with Arch. You seem to state your opinions as is they are fact though, and rather arrogantly at that. We have plenty of people on classes that could tank or heal on their dps character, but they don't want to. And frankly given we have 8 people with an assigned role, it seems rather stupid to waste time gearing up off-sets when the time we have could be spent on actual progression and drops put to the use of furthering their primary role, the one they came to the raid to do, and more importantly want to do.

[Ausgelebt]

Sages are not underperforming, but there are only a very few good sages. I've seen a sage live parse like 30dps behind me (sentinel). Melee got his pros and cons thats correct.

 

The question I can ask is: why would you want anything other than 4 gunslingers? 4x 20% dmg reduce for whole group, superior dps at range, superior aoe add killing ability, superior mechanic chessing (rollin rollin rollin rollin).

[Chemic_al]

Sages are not underperforming, but there are only a very few good sages. I've seen a sage live parse like 30dps behind me (sentinel). Melee got his pros and cons thats correct.

 

Maybe the sage is good and you are bad? Sage has better gear. Lots of different reasons for your 1 spot of anecdotal evidence that proves nothing.

 

The question I can ask is: why would you want anything other than 4 gunslingers?

 

Well, if sages aren't underperforming that's rather a silly question isn't it? And even more so since you play a mara

[kennethdale]

Well I have to agree with Arch. You seem to state your opinions as is they are fact though, and rather arrogantly at that. We have plenty of people on classes that could tank or heal on their dps character, but they don't want to. And frankly given we have 8 people with an assigned role, it seems rather stupid to waste time gearing up off-sets when the time we have could be spent on actual progression and drops put to the use of furthering their primary role, the one they came to the raid to do, and more importantly want to do.

 

First, I stated my opinion in the way I did to be perfectly clear. Tone is notoriously hard to read in such a short format and I wanted to ensure I wasn't misunderstood. As for gearing a second set, your argument is absolutely ridiculous. Are you seriously trying to say that literally every second you spend in game is spent on progression and that literally every piece of gear that drops is an exact upgrade for someone and is used for that? In my first NiM there were 3 drops that went to people for alts or offspecs because what people needed was the kell dragon tokens not the crap other pieces which usually have only one mod that is even slightly usable but even so is itemized terribly. As such, itemized lower tier mods are better than non itemized mods from a higher tier. Further, when it comes to progression (and I mean true progression raiding, not dabbling in NiM after it gets needed to hell) each and every raid member should be doing whatever it takes to down bosses and if you aren't willing to respec to do that you then you have no place in that raid. I used to raid in WoW on a holy paladin until while clearing Mt. Hyjal our Prot paladin quit on us. I had a tank set but 100% hated tanking but in spite of that there were 24 other people who needed someone to step up and tank, so I did. And when we got to Archimonde, who couldn't be tanked by a paladin, I healed un Prot spec rather than waste time leaving and coming back to respec. I hated every second of tanking because of how stressful it was but I did it because I was part of a team that needed it. By the same token, I'm not a fan of Carnage DPS but I play it frequently because it is better for those fights. I make the decision to do what is best for the group rather than being selfish and ignoring what the other 7/15 people want to do.