I Want To Like TOR, But It Just Feels Old

[beamerdark]

Oh god.... the fanboys...

 

This thread is just painful to read through

[Jarlathe]

Personally I do not care if WoW was released 8 years ago. That means Bioware has 8 years of someone else doing the work for them so they didn't have to pay for all the testing to see what works and what doesn't work.

 

Bioware had 8 years of seeing a game that works good and what made it good and we got this? This isn't even an MMO.

 

Honestly,

 

Can someone tell me where everyone is? I go to fleet and I see, if I am lucky, 2 or 3 people. Even on other planets I hardly see anyone. This is not what I call an MMO at all. Plus, top that off with lackluster worlds that seem soulless. What do I mean by soulless worlds. Where is the ambience we normally see in MMO's? NPC's in this game are some of he most cardboardish NPC's I have ever seen. No ambient sounds of NPC's working, talking, no wind, rain, no critters skittering around - birds - anyone see a bird - a bug even? Seriously. Is this suppose to be an immersive world/s? Because I am not seeing it and I certainly am not feeling it.

 

It's like we're playing a single player game with the option of playing with other players - if we can find someone to play with us!

 

Stop calling this an MMO...because it isn't! Bioware screwed up. They need to address this. Playing an MMO we should see more players! The worlds should seem like worlds and full of life. Bad on Bioware for not giving us an MMO, but instead, a poorly executed lobby game. Very disappointed. :mad:

 

Thank you for putting your finger on what has been bugging me since I got into the game. I've been saying to my brother that this game is very good, but it's lacking something I couldn't put my finger on. The bold part of your text is what it is. The worlds feel very, very, very static and lifeless.

 

This really does feel like KOTOR3 with added network support. It really doesn't feel like an MMORPG.

 

BTW, there are some NPC's talking to each other. They blow your speakers they are so loud and you are way past them and out in the world when they start blabbing, but they are there..lol

[Jorelle]

Lets see.

Yes, this game is not WoW.

And it does not matter if WoW has been out for 7 years or 30 years. If BioWare cant learn from other MMO’s mistakes, then they will sooner or later do something really bad with this game. It is so typical you fanboyz to use the 7 years like it is something you can hold on to.

No, it does not. If they cant learn from what is working and what is not working from what the other games have done, then they will not succeed in this.

 

2011 is a HUGE leap from 2004 when it comes to computer tech and MMO. And comparing PS3 with a modern tech computer is just being ignorant. PS3 is old and the tech belongs on a museum.

 

As for futher about this game is not WoW.

There is a TON of stuff in this game that WoW had, or have. So if you are saying that this game should NOT have anything from WoW, then quit playing now.

Combat system, just like WoW, many skills is just like WoW, rarity is just like WoW, mount speed system is just like WoW, minimap is just like WoW.

…………………. WAIT…. WOW did not use all of this 1st, they loaned it from other MMO’s and improved it.

You fanboyz are so anti WoW that everything anyone says turns out to be "oh this is not WOW".

 

But no, you fanboyz are so blind and ignorant that you cant see anything in front of you. All you see if someone want something changed or improved is “This is a WoW lover, we cant have stuff from WoW in this game, lets flame him do hell and back”.

You guys are so narrow minded when it comes to responding to people who wants to improve on what there.

All you say is that 10 years ago the MMO’s did not have this, so SWToR does not have to have this.

 

What BioWare and EA has done is release the game head of its time. They have left a ton of stuff out just to push the game out before Christmas. A ton of bugs and parts of the game that they are working on now. Not in Beta, but now.

If you do not believe there is bugs in the game, then take a look in the support on the forum and on the different class forums and you will see.

 

I guess all you will say is, “it is a new game, give it time”.

If the game was so bugged that you could not play, you would say the same.

 

actually this game is more like EQ LOL just had to.

[Mamono]

actually this game is more like EQ LOL just had to.

 

hehe

Oh the QQ that would have been if this was like EQ1 But I guess fanboys would not mind that either.

For them it is all about the story, the name and the aesthetics. And that the game never ever take any ideas or mechanics from WoW (even if there alredy are a ton of it in the game, but they cant see it). I wonder if I can ask them if we can use any other MMO instead of WoW. Like new MMO's that has not yet been out a year.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Mamono

[Dezzi]

Didn't read your whole list, but I'll give you character customization. For 2011, TOR has the most anemic character creator I've had the misfortune of using so far. Really, it's just enough for you to settle on the least awful-looking character you can. It needs more options across the board.

 

Otherwise, I don't have much to gripe about.

[Aquiraj]

So honestly, I really do want to like this game. And I do think it has some positive features, including Star Wars; I've always like the Star Wars movies. Unfortunately, TOR just feels really old. Even compared to World of Warcraft, which actually is very old (over 7 years now), this feels elderly.

 

The following are some things that make TOR feel old:

 

- No LFG Tool (been in WoW for over 2 years... absolutely baffled as to how this hasn't been developed for TOR yet)

 

- Awful UI; I could make an entire thread about this (and people already have), but for the sake of brevity, I'll just restate that it's awful

 

- Pet AI is horrible, between the delay on commanding their auto attack, their hilarious pathing errors, and many others; it's safe to say giving every Class+Spec a pet was a bad idea, without first giving them AI that's passable in 2011

 

- 2007 graphics (The Skybox being a 2D Painting is particularly insulting)

 

- No Day/Night Cylce

 

- No accessable body of water deeper than 6 inches

 

- Server queues (Had queues in WoW for Vanilla, BC, and Wrath but not Cata, Blizzard has evolved, BioWare has not)

 

- Lackluster Character Creation

 

- Absurd Leveling curve; the overall process of getting from 1-50 is pretty fast, but the curve for time per level increases at a rate that makes me feel like I'm playing Aion again

 

- Three Warzones, No Arenas (also consider Huttball cannot be taken seriously as Rated PvP). Again; TOR is competing with 2011 WoW (8 Battlegrounds, 4 of which can be done Rated + Arena Content)

 

- No Macros

 

- No mouseover casting

 

- No addon support

 

- No Dual Spec

 

- Taris memory leaks (should have been fixed in Beta, not "overnight" a week after Early Access started for the game's release build)

 

- Lack of variety in quests; everything is kill X amount of Y, unlike WoW where they've added a lot of variation (for better or for worse) in the quests, which makes leveling feel less grindy

 

- Voice Actors voicing too many different people; I don't think I've seen this many Characters with the same Voice Actor, since the first Deus Ex game

 

- Player Character repeating Dialogue from other conversations (My Sith Inquisitor has said "I'll show you what a Sith can do!" like 5 times now, and other less memorably rhyming are equally if not more common)

 

- "Choices" are still just the Blue good guy option, or the Red bad guy option — this was kinda new in KOTOR, and still cool in both Mass Effects; but unimpressive today

 

- No Mount until level 25; it only takes a couple hours to get your first Mount in WoW these days. No idea why this was considered a good idea

 

- Awkward gold; having over 500,000 gold by the time you hit 40 is... silly, and will be a major hassle as the game ages and gold inflation occurs

 

- A vast array of technical errors that BioWare, and easily amused Players will chalk up to "Every launch has issues, go play WoW kid!"; but nonetheless detract from gameplay, and are hard to excuse in a 2011 title

 

- No Appearance/Gear Customization such as WoW's Transmogrification, or a standard MMO Appearance Tab (weird in a game where we watch ourselves talk so much)

 

- No Barbershop for minor character recustomization (again, weird in a game where we watch so much of our character speaking)

 

- More — I will expand on this as more things pop into my mind, these are the ones currently at the forefront of my thought process

 

Anyway, do you guys feel the same way? Maybe you don't see the logic in some of my points (but you will once you get to level 40+), but you've probably noticed the game feels old. I'm worried that this feeling will plague the launch, and the early days of the game. This will both turn away new players, and create a jaded community; problems that get worse and worse as time goes on. Hopefully the game can be improved enough though, I do like it.

 

TL;DR, I think TOR feels old, what do you think?

 

 

 

As much as I hate to say it, I agree with most of this.

The main thing I keep thinking is "This is what they spent three years on?"

[Asamitai]

Lets see.

Yes, this game is not WoW.

And it does not matter if WoW has been out for 7 years or 30 years. If BioWare cant learn from other MMO’s mistakes, then they will sooner or later do something really bad with this game. It is so typical you fanboyz to use the 7 years like it is something you can hold on to.

No, it does not. If they cant learn from what is working and what is not working from what the other games have done, then they will not succeed in this.

 

2011 is a HUGE leap from 2004 when it comes to computer tech and MMO. And comparing PS3 with a modern tech computer is just being ignorant. PS3 is old and the tech belongs on a museum.

 

As for futher about this game is not WoW.

There is a TON of stuff in this game that WoW had, or have. So if you are saying that this game should NOT have anything from WoW, then quit playing now.

Combat system, just like WoW, many skills is just like WoW, rarity is just like WoW, mount speed system is just like WoW, minimap is just like WoW.

…………………. WAIT…. WOW did not use all of this 1st, they loaned it from other MMO’s and improved it.

You fanboyz are so anti WoW that everything anyone says turns out to be "oh this is not WOW".

 

But no, you fanboyz are so blind and ignorant that you cant see anything in front of you. All you see if someone want something changed or improved is “This is a WoW lover, we cant have stuff from WoW in this game, lets flame him do hell and back”.

You guys are so narrow minded when it comes to responding to people who wants to improve on what there.

All you say is that 10 years ago the MMO’s did not have this, so SWToR does not have to have this.

 

What BioWare and EA has done is release the game head of its time. They have left a ton of stuff out just to push the game out before Christmas. A ton of bugs and parts of the game that they are working on now. Not in Beta, but now.

If you do not believe there is bugs in the game, then take a look in the support on the forum and on the different class forums and you will see.

 

I guess all you will say is, “it is a new game, give it time”.

If the game was so bugged that you could not play, you would say the same.

 

 

Like any MMO release, there will be bugs. Show me a single MMO that has ever launched without bugs, and I'll go ahead and stop posting now. Servers have been stable, no gigantic crashes where they are down for hours at a time. There have been some bugs, but from what I have read, and from the people who I have played with, they are few and far between.

 

As for SWTOR not having features that a 7 year old game has, and I'm getting tired of saying this but people don't seem to understand, games only have the budget and manpower for so much. Expecting every single little feature to be in the game is ignorant. They spent time on implementing other things, and making the game overall an enjoyable experience.

 

Its not that you can't have features that are similar to WoW. The problem is that people expect them to be in the game immediately, when these things take time to implement. Hardly any game launches with every single feature the self entitled player base wants.

 

How many MMO launches have you been a part of? How many have been better than this? And don't just give blanket responses. Give actual reasons for why they are better.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Asamitai

[Netwar]

As much as I hate to say it, I agree with most of this.

The main thing I keep thinking is "This is what they spent three years on?"

 

 

People like you and the OP just don't have any clue about how *********** a challenge is to make a huge successful mmo. It's by far, more complicated than a extremly popular game like Skyrim to make. The amount of content is phenomenal. Even more, you have to test the game LOTS of time to bring it to the level of what SWTOR is at the moment in term of gameplay. The game as it stand right now is very acceptable. All core features are pretty solid (crafting, pve, pvp, etc) and can only become better with times.

[Asamitai]

Personally I do not care if WoW was released 8 years ago. That means Bioware has 8 years of someone else doing the work for them so they didn't have to pay for all the testing to see what works and what doesn't work.

 

Bioware had 8 years of seeing a game that works good and what made it good and we got this? This isn't even an MMO.

 

Honestly,

 

Can someone tell me where everyone is? I go to fleet and I see, if I am lucky, 2 or 3 people. Even on other planets I hardly see anyone. This is not what I call an MMO at all. Plus, top that off with lackluster worlds that seem soulless. What do I mean by soulless worlds. Where is the ambience we normally see in MMO's? NPC's in this game are some of he most cardboardish NPC's I have ever seen. No ambient sounds of NPC's working, talking, no wind, rain, no critters skittering around - birds - anyone see a bird - a bug even? Seriously. Is this suppose to be an immersive world/s? Because I am not seeing it and I certainly am not feeling it.

 

It's like we're playing a single player game with the option of playing with other players - if we can find someone to play with us!

 

Stop calling this an MMO...because it isn't! Bioware screwed up. They need to address this. Playing an MMO we should see more players! The worlds should seem like worlds and full of life. Bad on Bioware for not giving us an MMO, but instead, a poorly executed lobby game. Very disappointed.

 

First of all, I will say that sharding servers contributes to what is a lack of players running around. I don't like it myself, but I'm sure they have reasons for doing it.

 

Having said that.

 

A poorly executed lobby game? Don't people want a LFD tool that WoW has made so popular? How is having to actually look for a group in chat a "lobby game". If anything, sitting in a city, queing for a random dungeon is a lobby game. Find a guild if you're having trouble finding others to group with, really.

 

As for the NPCs seeming lifeless, have you ran through Dromund Kaas and heard the NPC telling another he's going to do 30 years of slave labor? There IS npc chatter, you're just not hearing it. I've heard it in several locations. My only problem with it is that it seems to follow you well out of earshot of the NPCs.

[Asamitai]

As much as I hate to say it, I agree with most of this.

The main thing I keep thinking is "This is what they spent three years on?"

 

/sigh. They spent well more than three years on the game. They ANNOUNCED the game three years ago. It has been in development for far longer.

 

Take some time to appreciate what they have put into the game. I think people are just focused on breaking everything down into the most negative state possible.

[Spharak]

All the "fanboy'z" just can't handle that someone critizises "their" game. What the OP says is very true...Bioware have a lot of work to do!!

 

Agree. Im enjoying so much playing this game but im always realistic and the OP is 100% right.

 

Thats why i think that if Bioware wants to do things right with this game, they have to start working asap or it will be yet another fail. The game has a lot of potential but nowdays people ask for a game with more features and fresher than the old reference (in this case WoW)

 

And the "go back to wow" sentence is not the way to make things better. I heard many of those comments when Age of Conan was released. Ofc this is a much better game than conan was on the launch, but still is missing so many things that WoW has implemented during the years. Things that many people now sees as basic features in an MMORPG and are not here somehow.

 

Be realistic people, this is a fantastic idea of MMORPG, but still need some work in other to beat the beast from Blizzard.

 

Im sure many people, including myself, will still play to this for a long time even with the drawbacks, but i repeat, the OP is right.

[Jorelle]

hehe

Oh the QQ that would have been if this was like EQ1 But I guess fanboys would not mind that either.

For them it is all about the story, the name and the aesthetics. And that the game never ever take any ideas or mechanics from WoW (even if there alredy are a ton of it in the game, but they cant see it). I wonder if I can ask them if we can use any other MMO instead of WoW. Like new MMO's that has not yet been out a year.

 

oh wait there should be some part or a little bit of EQ in SWTOR somewhere, since "SWTOR is a WoW clone" and thus WoW took some aspects from EQ and so on LMAO.

[Sgtcrispy]

oh wait there should be some part or a little bit of EQ in SWTOR somewhere, since "SWTOR is a WoW clone" and thus WoW took some aspects from EQ and so on LMAO.

 

I seriously doubt you played Everquest.

[Jhonen]

http://www.gamespot.com/star-wars-the-old-republic/user-reviews/platform/pc

 

Most of these users would like a word with you.

 

I take all of the reviews with a grain of salt. If the reviewer has only ever rated ToR and gave it a 10/10 without any proper explanation (10/10 is overkill anyways. More like 9 - 9.5) is most likely a "fanboy".

 

Inversely, anyone giving it a 1.0/10 and, again, giving little to no explanation as to why is what people refer to as a "hater".

 

There is a possibility that this game will sink, yes. If BioWare doesn't get major content patches out and start fixing errors, there's a good possibility that it won't have a large player base for too long.

 

But I believe that there's an even greater possibility that the game will be a major success, and continue to stand up to the "AAA" MMORPGs out now, and in the future.

 

The future of ToR is in BioWare's hands.

[Voxtrot]

But I believe that there's an even greater possibility that the game will be a major success, and continue to stand up to the "AAA" MMORPGs out now, and in the future.

 

The future of ToR is in BioWare's hands.

 

The problem is that it does not "stand up to the "AAA" MMORPGs out now" and if it continues in its current path, it definitely will not be standing up to anything in the future. As it is, it is hardly a MMO. It works as a light single-player game with co-op capabilities, but in terms of being a fully-fledged MMO it is woefully behind the pace. The lack of a good LFG tool, the poor UI, the lack of a good search tool and an efficient way to compare multiple items on the fly and the complete obfuscation of the gameplay systems is not... it is just less than desirable. Add onto that large zones that feel utterly empty and static, the difficulty of getting a group consistently, and lack of truly unique scenery and you have a rather bad combination.

 

In terms of MMOs, it is pretty much approaching bare bones.

 

And before anyone tells me to "go back to WoW", I do not play it and the only time I did I hated it and didn't play it after that. I haven't actually played a MMO past the first 10 or so levels since EQ2 released (I got to 30) and haven't hit cap since PlanetSide. Unfortunately, this game seems to be another "play for a few weeks and then drop" deal.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Voxtrot

[Jhonen]

The problem is that it does not "stand up to the "AAA" MMORPGs out now" and if it continues in its current path, it definitely will not be standing up to anything in the future. As it is, it is hardly a MMO. It works as a light single-player game with co-op capabilities, but in terms of being a fully-fledged MMO it is woefully behind the pace. The lack of a good LFG tool, the poor UI, the lack of a good search tool and an efficient way to compare multiple items on the fly and the complete obfuscation of the gameplay systems is not... less than desirable. Add onto that large zones that feel utterly empty and static, the difficulty of getting a group consistently, and lack of truly unique scenery and you have a rather bad combination.

 

In terms of MMOs, it is pretty much approaching bare bones.

 

And before anyone tells me to "go back to WoW", I do not play it and the only time I did I hated it and didn't play it after that. I haven't actually played a MMO past the first 10 or so levels since EQ2 released (I got to 30) and haven't hit cap since PlanetSide. Unfortunately, this game seems to be another "play for a few weeks and then drop" deal.

 

I'm sorry that you feel that way, but if you've really only played a few MMOs here and there (and not seriously since Planetside) how do you know this is the bare minimum and MMO should have?

 

On a side note, there's plenty to do after the main story arc is over. There are Operations, and plenty of PvP to be had. Even though the current Warzones aren't perfect.

[_Zefire_]

Very true mate.Lets hope on blizzard's new mmo in 2015.Till then lets have some fun with diablo 3.Seems like the only company remained to trust is Blizzard.

[Voxtrot]

I'm sorry that you feel that way, but if you've really only played a few MMOs here and there (and not seriously since Planetside) how do you know this is the bare minimum and MMO should have?

 

On a side note, there's plenty to do after the main story arc is over. There are Operations, and plenty of PvP to be had. Even though the current Warzones aren't perfect.

 

I say this from my most recent experience with EQ2, which had comparatively open access to its gameplay's innards, and PvP that was more than just three instanced playgrounds. Hell, even the public dungeons felt more alive and logically populated than what I have seen so far. And this is from a game that utterly disappointed me.

 

Also, the LFG tool in EQ2 around launch was almost the same, and the breaking up of zones due to population concerns was done better, as well. Everything still felt alive and thriving even if each area of Freeport was instanced three or four times over. It also helped that you had random animals and guards that actually had set routes and routines. A mediocre MMO made 7 years ago did those basic things better than TOR.

[Herdsnerfs]

Lots of complaints about this game not being WoW. Look.. many choices were conscious decisions. I think the LFG tool was a cancer in WoW. I'm very happy it's gone.

 

Lots of whining points though. Many not fair. No one seems to have any real idea the astounding amount of work is needed to make an MMO. For example, the complex models used to test every class running quests in every area, so they can tell if certain quests or bosses are too hard for some classes and not others. And people are worried that there isn't a barber shop. Hardy-har.

 

As far as the voice-acting, whatever... they had 320 voice actors, doing the over 250k+ lines of voice for the over 4000 NPCs. What did you expect.. 4000 voice actors, each doing a single NPC? You are, just like so many others, just complaining to complain. Many of your points are ridiculous.

[Gargion]

you are forgettin this is the launch, this is the foundation for the game so they can build off it in the future. please stop saying it missing this or missing that when its released yesterday! and wow has been out for 7years!!!!

 

I have to say something: This has needed to be said for quite some time. You guys are both right:

 

OP is right in the fact that if Bioware intended to beat WoW, they needed to look at what Blizzard is doing IN THE NOW. Not what they did 7 years ago. I think that the things that WoW did that were successful will probably find their way into this game in due time.

 

However, Others are also right in saying that this is a framework. I believe that no game should ever be released as a "Framework" MMO or not; however, I also understand that EA probably pushed this out of BioWare's hands. Publishers do that sort of thing. EA wants to start making its money. Therefore, the game is lacking a lot of the polished features of WoW for several (potential) reasons: forced released date, less experience designing and creating content for MMOs, as well as a bit of uncertainty. I feel like BioWare's designers aren't entirely sure what they want the final game system to look like, and they are afraid to take WoW as an example due to its recent drop in subscriptions.

 

 

What will truly determine this game's fate is how responsive BioWare is to the community, and how much the design team takes the communities opinion to heart.

[Jhonen]

I have to say something: This has needed to be said for quite some time. You guys are both right:

 

OP is right in the fact that if Bioware intended to beat WoW, they needed to look at what Blizzard is doing IN THE NOW. Not what they did 7 years ago. I think that the things that WoW did that were successful will probably find their way into this game in due time.

 

However, Others are also right in saying that this is a framework. I believe that no game should ever be released as a "Framework" MMO or not; however, I also understand that EA probably pushed this out of BioWare's hands. Publishers do that sort of thing. EA wants to start making its money. Therefore, the game is lacking a lot of the polished features of WoW for several (potential) reasons: forced released date, less experience designing and creating content for MMOs, as well as a bit of uncertainty. I feel like BioWare's designers aren't entirely sure what they want the final game system to look like, and they are afraid to take WoW as an example due to its recent drop in subscriptions.

 

 

What will truly determine this game's fate is how responsive BioWare is to the community, and how much the design team takes the communities opinion to heart.

 

I take all of the reviews with a grain of salt. If the reviewer has only ever rated ToR and gave it a 10/10 without any proper explanation (10/10 is overkill anyways. More like 9 - 9.5) is most likely a "fanboy".

 

Inversely, anyone giving it a 1.0/10 and, again, giving little to no explanation as to why is what people refer to as a "hater".

 

There is a possibility that this game will sink, yes. If BioWare doesn't get major content patches out and start fixing errors, there's a good possibility that it won't have a large player base for too long.

 

But I believe that there's an even greater possibility that the game will be a major success, and continue to stand up to the "AAA" MMORPGs out now, and in the future.

 

The future of ToR is in BioWare's hands.

 

Essentially what I said.

[Gargion]

Essentially what I said.

 

And I agree Whole-Heartedly

 

If Bioware is responsive, and works REALLY HARD on this game--and giving the majority player-base what it wants--then this game will succeed. Otherwise, the game will die rather quickly, as it suffers through the roller-coaster of development as WoW has for so many years.

[Shadysketchy]

/sigh. They spent well more than three years on the game. They ANNOUNCED the game three years ago. It has been in development for far longer.

 

Take some time to appreciate what they have put into the game. I think people are just focused on breaking everything down into the most negative state possible.

 

Now I'm really confused about your logic

 

You acknowledge that TOR had a Development Cycle of over 3 years, yet you still think that it releasing with this many issues is acceptable?

 

The minor bugs, and graphical errors, sure. But game breaking stuff like the casting delay for all classes, should never have made it in for launch

[DarthVarrak]

Now I'm really confused about your logic

 

You acknowledge that TOR had a Development Cycle of over 3 years, yet you still think that it releasing with this many issues is acceptable?

 

The minor bugs, and graphical errors, sure. But game breaking stuff like the casting delay for all classes, should never have made it in for launch

 

Name one MMO in the history of gaming that has released without any issues, including ability lag. WoW, for a fact, had several issues (arguably MUCH worse issues) than what is seen today in TOR.

 

I wonder how long that game was in development and how long it took to fix the issues, some of which can still be seen today (years and years afterwards).

[Shadysketchy]

Name one MMO in the history of gaming that has released without any issues, including ability lag. WoW, for a fact, had several issues (arguably MUCH worse issues) than what is seen today in TOR.

 

I wonder how long that game was in development and how long it took to fix the issues, some of which can still be seen today (years and years afterwards).

 

Every MMO has issues at launch; but that's not the point

 

Like I've said probably around a hundred times now, TOR is competing with 2011 WoW, not 2004 WoW