PVP tanks - PT vs Jugg

[Atramar]

Opinions? Which one as a Tank in over all 4 warzones and possible arena (dunno if there is a point of thinking in 2.4 as we might get some balance in the way)

for the sake of argument, we can assume assassin tank is guarding, as they are fab guarders - with sap they buy 8-16 sec more time while others have to face tank and kite.

 

both can jump, both have aoe slow. both have one cc breaker.

 

my opinion:

PT tank:

pros:

30 meters range support/cap stopper (34 if we count DFAB at max range + radius) - great in middle door of voidstar combined with root immunity,makes it efficent to kite+cap break (ofc there is a risk of getting mezzed out of 10 m range)

pull - very usefull to get thins off healer, ball carriers, etc. - specced roots target.

ranged aoe taunt (so can taunt a group from 30 meters)

6 sec 30 s CD on movment immunity

exploding dart (when feel that sin/operative going to stealth soon), good for breaking caps too.

spammable aoe cap stopper+slow+dmg debuff

stealth scan (good for making sure no one goes to fast in voidstar, or to scan for possible threats in huttball)

can break caps in mezz/stun (a bit mute if we already have designed sin tank)

aoe 15 sec 70% slow + 30% debuff on 1 min cd.

easy going rotation, energy/kinetic mix of attacks, generaly not hard to play efficently, can support healer from distance.

dots (anti stealther) that slow.

aoe hard stun, but short (2.5 s)

 

cons:

not many def CD's

not as durable as jugg

respeccing to DPS less viable then it used to be

lack of aoe mezz (see aoe hard but short stun)

 

jugg:

pros:

very durable, many def cd buttons including saber reflect which is awesome.

aoe armor debuff+accuracy debuff on 12s cd

spamable aoe slow

friendly jump

taunt gives shield to friendlies (my jugg atm 1225 hp worth it seems)

in stun def CD which has it's limitations, but it's generaly nice for pvp when 2 stealthers jumps on you.

force push + refreshed jump

self shield (even if it's just 1.2k damage) every 12 seconds.

easy going respec to push good damage as smash monkey.

jump interrupts and has shorter CD while being attacked.

2 hard stuns, 4m and 10m (force choke)

aoe 6 second mezz

 

cons:

limited range cap stoppers - can't 'save the day' on voidstar middle doors, limited kite + stop caps style, only one 1 10m attack on 12 sec cd, one 30 meters attack.

limited aoe cap stoppers

generaly limited range

no unstopabble

no mezz cap breakers, only one cc break.

 

did I miss something? which one for rated (and why), which one for PuGs (shorter why).

 

Don't get me wrong, I love my PT tank, and my post is probably more PT 'fanboi' sound, but I'm looking for balanced opinion, as I would like to improve my pvp tanking usefulness, and my knowledge of RATED PVP (in general) is very limited (only did few matches on varius chars).

Edited July 21, 2013 by Atramar

[Atramar]

Reason for that thread is , I keep hearing 'jugg main tank, sin for nodes', PT's seems forgotten, or called 'poor mans jugg, poor mans nodeguarder' while I feel quite oposite.

while with movment immunity, it's nice set of tools, and ridiculusly easy rotation, it's very good to control warzone, off guard a node (see shoulder cannon - anti ninja) or even main node guarder with LOS and 30 meters cap disturb.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Atramar

[announcerharris]

Bring the player, not the class.

[stupidsyrup]

Bring the player, not the class.

 

This.

 

However I will throw out my opinion.

 

My main is a Guardian Tank.

Pros:

Leap interrupts and after leap you have enough Focus for Force Sweep, an AoE attack that will stop multiple cappers.

Sure PT's have a jump but Jugg's is on a smaller CD, especially since getting attacked reduces the CD every 1.5 seconds.

Probably the best Tank for PvE.

Most of my other Pros have already been stated.

 

Cons:

AoE Taunt only works within 15 meters.

Only Ranged attack is Saber Throw and that only works on one target.

Rest of my Cons have been stated.

 

I do not have a PT or VG, but I know the moves and respect them.

Pros:

That attack while CC'd, shoo man.

Ranged attacks.

Pull and Jump make them an Assassin/Jugg mix.

Rest have been stated.

 

Cons: Mmmm....I got nothing else.

 

I do think PT's are better in "Capture The Flag" esque WZ's. Jugg Tank is more mobile and great for Huttball.

 

It definitely depends on the class. There is a Sorc healer and PT Tank on POT5 that will hold 7 of us to one node, without letting us cap (it may just because our team is ret@rded, but they use video chat), and I respect them very much and can't wait for my 53 Sniper to be 55 and work with them lol.

[Atramar]

This.

 

However I will throw out my opinion.

.

 

Thank you very much. I forgot about shorter CD on juggs/guardians jump, think it goes 1.5 second every second of being attacked? and of interrupt. will add it to my list.

 

Will probably give a good pvp WZ spam on my jugg as due to impossible odds, I managed to do weekly on all my 3 pvp chars in 3 days (pugs only, win after win, after win, win and DC, joined lost game, win , win, end so on), so I might add some more stuff.

 

please keep pros and cons coming, all are appreciated

[TonyDragonflame]

'poor mans jugg

 

^ this

[TheOneWag]

Bring the player, not the class.

 

Put up 800k damage all the time as AP / Tactics. Go figure I would have done 1.2mil easy on a Mara or DPS Jug.

 

A tank specced PT / Van has less defensive cooldowns than a Mara / Sent, puts out less damage than a Jug, and are outdone by Sin-Shadows on node guarding. Remind me what it is we do again?

 

The only things remotely unique are Hold the Line, Harpoon, and Shoulder Cannon. HTL is fine, but I can't count the number of times I have shot someone with Harpoon while they are in the open only to have so much of a delay on the drag that by the time the drag actually happens, they are behind LOS and it just bumps them against the corner they just went around.

 

As for Shoulder Cannon, in tank spec "it's a defensive Cooldown." Trollololo ok, we get a 20% heal in the form of 4 rockets that MUST hit, at the fastest, over 4 seconds. Compare that to a Jug who pops Endure and instantly gets more than that in bonus health, or a Mara who pops 99% DR, or a Sin that just straight up vanishes and walks away.

 

Bring the player all you want, but at the end of the day, PT / Van is below average in virtually every possible category except PVE tanking.

[Atramar]

Put up 800k damage all the time as AP / Tactics. Go figure I would have done 1.2mil easy on a Mara or DPS Jug.

 

A tank specced PT / Van has less defensive cooldowns than a Mara / Sent, puts out less damage than a Jug, and are outdone by Sin-Shadows on node guarding. Remind me what it is we do again?

 

The only things remotely unique are Hold the Line, Harpoon, and Shoulder Cannon. HTL is fine, but I can't count the number of times I have shot someone with Harpoon while they are in the open only to have so much of a delay on the drag that by the time the drag actually happens, they are behind LOS and it just bumps them against the corner they just went around.

 

As for Shoulder Cannon, in tank spec "it's a defensive Cooldown." Trollololo ok, we get a 20% heal in the form of 4 rockets that MUST hit, at the fastest, over 4 seconds. Compare that to a Jug who pops Endure and instantly gets more than that in bonus health, or a Mara who pops 99% DR, or a Sin that just straight up vanishes and walks away.

 

Bring the player all you want, but at the end of the day, PT / Van is below average in virtually every possible category except PVE tanking.

 

Indeed, harpoon is buggy way to often. shoulder cannon I really preffer to keep as a must to stop caps, nice thing about it is it doesnt have to attack in front (as we all know it;s impossible to turn around while stunned) but. can be los-ed

 

I woulnd't call it below in virtually every possible category in PVP, I did list a numbers of pros and cons, Like Voidstar:

6 people at respawn, 1 person mezzed on right, other team is capping both doors. I run to right, default attack + dart, hold da line, run to other door, DFAB. doors saved (noted, other team is plain stupid to leave a tank in a mid alive not mezzed, but I think I got some hits that would suggest a root intended, possible my resolve was maxed, was to focused on interrupting to notice). I can't virtually imagine doing that on any other tank (jugg could do similar, but not explosive dart + interrupt 3 seconds later)

[kweassa]

Put up 800k damage all the time as AP / Tactics. Go figure I would have done 1.2mil easy on a Mara or DPS Jug.

 

A tank specced PT / Van has less defensive cooldowns than a Mara / Sent, puts out less damage than a Jug, and are outdone by Sin-Shadows on node guarding. Remind me what it is we do again?

 

You guard your frail teammates, you dish out taunts, disrupt enemy healers with 8sec CD interrupts, you kite-tank enemy melees with movement-impairment immunity, you lay out smoke/slick at key choke points to hold back and delay the entire enemy team, or just neuter any sniper/gunslinger out there, you pull enemy healers or key individuals to a bad place to be for them.

 

All three tank classes have similar roles, but distinctly different nuances. If you can't catch that difference, well... let's just say I wouldn't recommend any of your opinions to someone looking for PvP information.

 

 

The only things remotely unique are Hold the Line, Harpoon, and Shoulder Cannon. HTL is fine, but I can't count the number of times I have shot someone with Harpoon while they are in the open only to have so much of a delay on the drag that by the time the drag actually happens, they are behind LOS and it just bumps them against the corner they just went around.

 

Bad timing.

 

 

As for Shoulder Cannon, in tank spec "it's a defensive Cooldown." Trollololo ok, we get a 20% heal in the form of 4 rockets that MUST hit, at the fastest, over 4 seconds. Compare that to a Jug who pops Endure and instantly gets more than that in bonus health, or a Mara who pops 99% DR, or a Sin that just straight up vanishes and walks away.

 

In turn, Vanguard/PTs have a higher survivability rate under the assumption that all CDs are spent. Range is by itself a powerful tool, and combined with tanking tools, allows the class to offset any relative weaknesses it has to the Force user tanks. It's a helluva lot easier to be hit with only ranged attacks, than having to deal with both ranged and melee attacks for 30 seconds. The key to handling the Vanguard/PT tank builds is capitalizing on that fact.

 

 

Bring the player all you want, but at the end of the day, PT / Van is below average in virtually every possible category except PVE tanking.

 

Some of the best tanks I've seen in RWZs are Vanguards. For some reason Imp players have this nasty and wierd obsession with Pyro DPS builds so I've rarely seen a PT tank well, but the Republic has plenty of Vanguards going tank builds and all of them are more than competitive in premade regs, PuG regs, as well as RWZs.

 

Again, each of the three tank types fill a different role. If you cannot catch that difference, then certainly the "player" category seems to be the weakest link with your Van/PT tanking experience, not the spec.

[Kegparty]

.................. I don't even know why I am bumping this thread but honestly I would never take my PT over my Jugg. I play PT because its fun right now but hardly even comparable because of the bashing bio did. I believe in 2.4 they are going to pull back a little and give some back for arenas.

[madtycoon]

theorycrafting on which will be better in 4v4

 

Jug brings more CC, which should be able to help get kills and stop damage easier. Pull doesn't really stop damage, because if you are pulling a melee off their kill target, you are also probably going to be out of guard range. Pulling things into you and getting kills though, I mean that's definitely a thing.

 

I think PT's best asset is hold the line, because that ability makes it harder to separate a PT tank from his guard target, whereas a team can more easily knockback and chain root a Jug tank out of guard range while stunning their kill target and he won't be to do anything about it except taunt. Not as worried about this if you bring 2 cleanses for the jug tank. I think all 3 tanks will have their pros and cons. They are pretty similar in filling their role if you think about it.

[Atramar]

theorycrafting on which will be better in 4v4

 

Jug brings more CC, which should be able to help get kills and stop damage easier. Pull doesn't really stop damage, because if you are pulling a melee off their kill target, you are also probably going to be out of guard range. Pulling things into you and getting kills though, I mean that's definitely a thing.

 

I think PT's best asset is hold the line, because that ability makes it harder to separate a PT tank from his guard target, whereas a team can more easily knockback and chain root a Jug tank out of guard range while stunning their kill target and he won't be to do anything about it except taunt. Not as worried about this if you bring 2 cleanses for the jug tank. I think all 3 tanks will have their pros and cons. They are pretty similar in filling their role if you think about it.

 

Juggs give same CC as PT, one hard stun, one aoe mezz, PT has one aoe slow 50% spammable and one 70% slow for 15 seconds on area (iol slick), and stealth scan (4xstealth teams any1?). Even less I would say as PTs hard stun is 10 meters long, and juggs 4 (plus PT pull means 3 second of hard stun). So when I want to stun one target who is attacking healer, I have to walk up to it.

Pull has a + on 4v4 when you PULL (and stunns) enemy >healer< into your rage jugg friend. Did few Jugg runs now, and I can say, while having a cooldown for any encounter, I could not stop 2 caps already that would be no problem for a PT.

5 seconds of reflection is a slap to 3 people nailing you, then mezz, and we have 13 seconds of life.

 

that is really tough peace of a rock to bite...

Edited July 19, 2013 by Atramar

[Polymerize]

You guard your frail teammates, you dish out taunts, disrupt enemy healers with 8sec CD interrupts, you kite-tank enemy melees with movement-impairment immunity, you lay out smoke/slick at key choke points to hold back and delay the entire enemy team, or just neuter any sniper/gunslinger out there, you pull enemy healers or key individuals to a bad place to be for them.

 

All three tank classes have similar roles, but distinctly different nuances. If you can't catch that difference, well... let's just say I wouldn't recommend any of your opinions to someone looking for PvP information.

 

 

 

 

Bad timing.

 

 

 

 

In turn, Vanguard/PTs have a higher survivability rate under the assumption that all CDs are spent. Range is by itself a powerful tool, and combined with tanking tools, allows the class to offset any relative weaknesses it has to the Force user tanks. It's a helluva lot easier to be hit with only ranged attacks, than having to deal with both ranged and melee attacks for 30 seconds. The key to handling the Vanguard/PT tank builds is capitalizing on that fact.

 

 

 

 

Some of the best tanks I've seen in RWZs are Vanguards. For some reason Imp players have this nasty and wierd obsession with Pyro DPS builds so I've rarely seen a PT tank well, but the Republic has plenty of Vanguards going tank builds and all of them are more than competitive in premade regs, PuG regs, as well as RWZs.

 

Again, each of the three tank types fill a different role. If you cannot catch that difference, then certainly the "player" category seems to be the weakest link with your Van/PT tanking experience, not the spec.

 

Boom. Well said.

[Capt_Beers]

both can jump, both have aoe mezz, both have aoe slow. both have one cc breaker.

 

VG's don't have an AoE mezz they have an AoE 2 sec hard stun, Guards have an AoE 6 sec mezz

 

VG's can interuppt a cap while stunned/mezzed with Shoulder Cannon, Guards cannot.

[TheOneWag]

give some back for arenas.

 

Written in Trooper:

 

Shield Spec

1. Charge talent now reduces the CD of HTL or Storm every time you are hit.

2. Guard Cannon missiles heal for 7-8% per missile (to come in line with Jug 30%)

3. Deflective Guards now increases shield chance by 4%

4. Power Screen ICD down to 1 second from 1.5 seconds.

5. Static Surge now causes each tick of Pulse Cannon to apply a 3-4 second 30-50% snare

6. (Optional) Swap tier spots of Defensive Measures talent and Neural Overload talent

 

Tactics:

1. Frontline Offense also increases the damage of Fire Pulse by 3 / 6%

2. Pulse Generator grants 30% per charge, 90% at max.

3. Havoc Training also applies its bonus to Ion Pulse

4. Lower the ICD on Reflexive Shield

5. Charged Loaders now only loads 6 missiles total, but allows 2 missiles to be fired before the independent CD on the launcher is triggered. Independent CD to launcher is now 1.5 seconds instead of 1 second.

6. Fire Pulse base damage increased 10-25%

 

Assault:

1. Soldier's Endurance is now 3% / 6% Endurance

2. Sweltering Heat now applies its debuff for the duration that the target is effected by your Plasma Cell

3. High Friction Bolts now allows your HIB to ignore 100% of the armor of a target effected by one of your burn effects. It no longer refreshes your Plasma Cell.

4. Superheated Plasma no longer buffs the damage of Plasma Cell, and instead increases its duration by 2 / 4 / 6 seconds.

5. Electro Shield now returns a percentage of the damage dealt instead of a flat amount.

6. Incendiary Round now has a 20 yard range.

7. Assault Frame is now a proc and increases your armor for 10% / 20% for 8 seconds after a successful Stockstrike.

8. Rain of Fire: Now also offers its bonus damage to Plastique.

9. Degauss: now increases your movement speed by 30-50% for 3 sec when it successfully removes a movement impairing effect.

10. Burnout: Increases periodic damage to targets below 30% by 20/30/40%. Also increases the damage of Plastique to targets under 30% by 50%.

11. Adrenaline Fueled: Now extends the effect of Adrenaline Rush for 3/5 seconds each time you are attacked while Adrenaline Rush is active. Cannot proc more than once every 3 seconds, caps at 15 seconds.

12. Plastique: Cooldown now 20 seconds up from 15. Increase base damage to target by 50%. Plastique Dot damage to target lowered, however Dot damage from explosion is now AOE and has a chance to apply Plasma Cell to each target it hits on its initial hit.

 

I'd say this would still not put us on par with Maras, but hey, can't have everything.

Edited July 19, 2013 by TheOneWag

[Atramar]

VG's don't have an AoE mezz they have an AoE 2 sec hard stun, Guards have an AoE 6 sec mezz

 

VG's can interuppt a cap while stunned/mezzed with Shoulder Cannon, Guards cannot.

 

is it me or Carbonize changed. Just now I've read description and figured I was wrong

thought it was 6 or 8 second mezz...

 

I feel such a noob at times like this.

[Polymerize]

PT/VG Tanks would be a lot more prevalent in Rateds if teams actually revolved some strategies around their pull.

[Capt_Beers]

Juggs give same CC as PT, one hard stun, one aoe mezz, PT has one aoe slow 50% spammable and one 70% slow for 15 seconds on area (iol slick), and stealth scan (4xstealth teams any1?). Even less I would say as PTs hard stun is 10 meters long, and juggs 4 (plus PT pull means 3 second of hard stun). So when I want to stun one target who is attacking healer, I have to walk up to it.

Pull has a + on 4v4 when you PULL (and stunns) enemy >healer< into your rage jugg friend. Did few Jugg runs now, and I can say, while having a cooldown for any encounter, I could not stop 2 caps already that would be no problem for a PT.

5 seconds of reflection is a slap to 3 people nailing you, then mezz, and we have 13 seconds of life.

 

that is really tough peace of a rock to bite...

 

Hate to do it again but Jugs have one 3 sec hard stun, 1 4 sec hard stun and an AoE mezz.

 

In the tanking tree they no longer have channel Choke.

[TheOneWag]

PT/VG Tanks would be a lot more prevalent in Rateds if teams actually revolved some strategies around their pull.

 

Gotta spec for dat dere root to go with it, otherwise most will just dance away as soon as you grab them.

 

A lot of timing (talked about in another thread) that goes into the pull because there's a significant delay between when you shoot the wire and when it actually reels them in. A lot of times this can mean they'll just bump against the terrain and go nowhere.

[Atramar]

Hate to do it again but Jugs have one 3 sec hard stun, 1 4 sec hard stun and an AoE mezz.

 

In the tanking tree they no longer have channel Choke.

 

No, no. Please do. I'm person who likes to know when he's wrong and takes counts for his errors. Thanks

again, forgot about force choke... and after pull it's root not stun.

noted and first post changed. cheers

Edited July 19, 2013 by Atramar

[stupidsyrup]

Hate to do it again but Jugs have one 3 sec hard stun, 1 4 sec hard stun and an AoE mezz.

 

In the tanking tree they no longer have channel Choke.

 

Actually, with the Partisan set bonus, Force Choke/Stasis lasts 1 second longer. Making it a 4 sec hard stun, that, as you said, does not need to be channeled.

 

As I've said before, Tank Juggs/Guardians have the most interrupts in the game.

 

Jump>Interrupt>Pick one 4 sec stun>Interrupt>Another 4 sec stun or Force Push, your choice>Jump>Interrupt>Whichever one you didn't use>Interrupt.

 

Resolve will be filled but you will have a pissed off Scouperative.

[NotAnyOldName]

Anything a PT tank can do a Jugg can do better.

[Brunner_Venda]

**** can I has?

 

I'm on the mirror side, so let me translate. II still think tactics needs lower CD on HiB or more armor pen from Combat Tactics. The spec doesn't get 6K medals in PVP. That's sad for a supposed DPS class. One ability should crit for 6.5K to 7.0K.

 

For assault 'Adrenalin Fueled', we were asking for a 1% heal when a DOT tick crits (exactly like the other DOT classes). We also want Kolto Overload to heal up to 40% to at least take us out of execute range.

 

Written in Trooper:

 

Shield Spec

1. Charge talent now reduces the CD of HTL or Storm every time you are hit.

2. Guard Cannon missiles heal for 7-8% per missile (to come in line with Jug 30%)

3. Deflective Guards now increases shield chance by 4%

4. Power Screen ICD down to 1 second from 1.5 seconds.

5. Static Surge now causes each tick of Pulse Cannon to apply a 3-4 second 30-50% snare

6. (Optional) Swap tier spots of Defensive Measures talent and Neural Overload talent

 

Tactics:

1. Frontline Offense also increases the damage of Fire Pulse by 3 / 6%

2. Pulse Generator grants 30% per charge, 90% at max.

3. Havoc Training also applies its bonus to Ion Pulse

4. Lower the ICD on Reflexive Shield

5. Charged Loaders now only loads 6 missiles total, but allows 2 missiles to be fired before the independent CD on the launcher is triggered. Independent CD to launcher is now 1.5 seconds instead of 1 second.

6. Fire Pulse base damage increased 10-25%

 

Assault:

1. Soldier's Endurance is now 3% / 6% Endurance

2. Sweltering Heat now applies its debuff for the duration that the target is effected by your Plasma Cell

3. High Friction Bolts now allows your HIB to ignore 100% of the armor of a target effected by one of your burn effects. It no longer refreshes your Plasma Cell.

4. Superheated Plasma no longer buffs the damage of Plasma Cell, and instead increases its duration by 2 / 4 / 6 seconds.

5. Electro Shield now returns a percentage of the damage dealt instead of a flat amount.

6. Incendiary Round now has a 20 yard range.

7. Assault Frame is now a proc and increases your armor for 10% / 20% for 8 seconds after a successful Stockstrike.

8. Rain of Fire: Now also offers its bonus damage to Plastique.

9. Degauss: now increases your movement speed by 30-50% for 3 sec when it successfully removes a movement impairing effect.

10. Burnout: Increases periodic damage to targets below 30% by 20/30/40%. Also increases the damage of Plastique to targets under 30% by 50%.

11. Adrenaline Fueled: Now extends the effect of Adrenaline Rush for 3/5 seconds each time you are attacked while Adrenaline Rush is active. Cannot proc more than once every 3 seconds, caps at 15 seconds.

12. Plastique: Cooldown now 20 seconds up from 15. Increase base damage to target by 50%. Plastique Dot damage to target lowered, however Dot damage from explosion is now AOE and has a chance to apply Plasma Cell to each target it hits on its initial hit.

 

I'd say this would still not put us on par with Maras, but hey, can't have everything.

[kweassa]

Gotta spec for dat dere root to go with it, otherwise most will just dance away as soon as you grab them.

 

He said strategy. What's the rest of the team doing? Drooling?

 

A lot of timing (talked about in another thread) that goes into the pull because there's a significant delay between when you shoot the wire and when it actually reels them in. A lot of times this can mean they'll just bump against the terrain and go nowhere.

 

As I said, bad timing. Either that, or faulty plan. Rarely happens to my Vanguard.

Edited July 20, 2013 by kweassa

[kweassa]

Anything a PT tank can do a Jugg can do better.

 

How often can your Jugg pull an enemy healer out of the crowd?