Bolster.. why are some so threatened by it?

[L-RANDLE]

Let me ask you this Randle, if a PvE player who knows their class in and out, wants to PvP but does not want to grind for PvP gear because they are fully outfitted in the best PvE endgame gear one can obtain, why should they?

 

If they do not want to carry to sets of gear, how does this stop the PvPer from gear progression? It does not. Bolster allows the casual PvP and the PvE players to participate in PvP without being a PvP target of opportunity (read: farmer’s dream target).

 

I know there are a number of PvPers who do not want PvE endgame gear; however, they still participate in PvE endgame content. A few of them have posted in this thread stating so. If Bolster is a tool to level the warzones so that any and all who want to participate regardless of gear, how is that a bad thing? Does it not increase the player pool for the warzone experience? Is that not a good thing for PvP? Would you advocate, as many of those anti-bolster players, the complete removal of Bolster or increase the gear imbalance to something akin that Recruit wearing players had when facing a BiS EWH wearing player? This is what these ‘l33t Professionals PvPers’ are advocating. How is that a good and healthy thing for SWTOR PvP? Answer: It. Is. Not.

 

So far Kwessa is the voice of reason concerning Bolster and PvP. However, with the exception of a few, many have ignored what he/she has said. I agree 100% with their assessment concerning this topic. Furthermore, if people would learn to adapt and look at the positives Bolster brings to this game’s PvP in playability and allowing more people to play and be competitive instead of focusing on exploits, gear, and whatever else they want to come up with to QQ about, they may find what PvP has become is a far better experience than what it was for everyone prior to 2.0. Bolster is here to stay. People need to accept it and adapt, or go look for greener pastures.

And it needs to stay, but the bar and the bugs are not where it needs to be right now..

 

 

Again this validates my point the PvP gear progression is virtually dead. The problem mainly is where the bar is set, not that the bar exists.

[cashogy_reborn]

bolster should put you just below partisan gear.

 

instead, you can actually get stats better than partisan gear using crafted PvE gear

[KamujinKravshera]

There's no reason to be "threatened" by bolster, nor does bolster effect the combat in any way to your disadvantage.

 

The simple truth is, if people have high-tier, top-performing gear, whether be it PvE or PvP, then there is no noticeable advantage or disadvantage in terms of performance. It simply comes down to who plays better.

 

However, when it comes down to lower-level gear and/or first entry to max-level bracket, bolster helps people (regardless whether they are PvPers or PvEers) mend the huge gap in performance and improves the QOL for people with lower-tier equipment, and stops them from totally demotivated and just dumping PvP as a whole.

 

As to answer your original question, the reason people keep nagging on the bolster system -- despite the fact that it has no drawbacks and benefits everyone -- is as follows:

 

(1) Terribads use bolster as an excuse to paint themselves as being some victim, treated unjustly in some manner by the system.

 

(2) Its just simply another way of QQing; "No fair! I worked hard for my gear! I should be having the advantage in combat, and they should be weaker than me so I can beat them easily! The only reason I keep getting faceplanted is because those PvE people have gear way too powerful than it should be! If only bolster was not here, I would be beating their 0-expertise toons to pulp!"

 

(3) To summarize, its a QQ/excuse for people who can't beat anyone unless they are significantly weaker than themselves. However, if they point this out they know they are going to be ridiculed by real PvPers, so they mask their intentions and bring up this phantasmal "bolster problem", as a straw-man argument, when such a thing doesn't exist.

 

 

Harsh, but truth.

 

1) Terribad PvE'rs cry about gear gap. Get bolster welfare. Still fail. PvP'rs lose PvP development resources because PvP development resources were allocated to creating, fixing, refixing, refixing again.... bolster.

 

2) It's simply PvE welfare. "I beat NPC's to earn this PvE gear! I want to PvP in it!"

 

3) It's PvE welfare packaged as PvP updates. As such, it takes resources from PvP development projects and reallocates them to QQing PvE'rs who can't beat opponents who think.

 

The harsher and truer truth.

Edited July 18, 2013 by KamujinKravshera

[cycao]

bolster should put you just below partisan gear.

 

instead, you can actually get stats better than partisan gear using crafted PvE gear

 

Yeah I have no issue with bolster, as an idea bolster is great. Though the problem was its very, very poor implementation. It has not been working as intended since it was first placed on the PTS. Bugs and exploits of this system has been its downfall.

 

As cash said, it should put you just below partisan but you can use certain slots to bypass this.

[SlimsPicken]

Let me ask you this Ghost_Spectre, if a PvP player who knows their class in and out, wants to PvE but does not want to grind for PvE gear because they are fully outfitted in the best PvP endgame gear one can obtain, why should they?

How is it that the knife doesnt cut both ways?

[L-RANDLE]

How is it that the knife doesnt cut both ways?

 

 

Its always a two way street. There is middle ground, but its naive to think we are there yet...

[Aries_cz]

Well, we cannot get make PvP gear = PvE gear, since PvP gear "can" be acquired by failing the content repeatedly, which is not true for PvE.

If PvE = PvP gear was implemented, it would mean to remove all commendation rewards for losing the game, and make PvP gear to break a little bit after each battle, to make them really equal, just with a bit different stat distribution (to favor PvP survivability more, or whatever) and different looks. I would support such idea, as I have always claimed that Expertise (or whatever PvP-only stat in whatever game) was bane of PvP

[Doomsdaycomes]

And it needs to stay, but the bar and the bugs are not where it needs to be right now..

 

 

Again this validates my point the PvP gear progression is virtually dead. The problem mainly is where the bar is set, not that the bar exists.

 

Going to have to agree here.

 

It's not that bolster is bad, it's that where it is set (and bugs in it) are bad.

 

If all bolster did was say:

 

"Hey, this piece here has no expertise."

"What kind of piece is it?"

"Aim Earpiece, Dps spec."

"Use: Recruit-level Aim Earpiece, Dps spec."

 

That would be fine. A full PvE player could enter PvP, have expertise/stats according to some base level, and play without having to manually put on Recruit gear (or failing that, drag down their team.)

 

But it doesn't do that, does it?

[Floplag]

Bolster is counter productive and extends the time of players becoming good. When you are out geared you learn quickly to work as and support a team. Bolster promotes bad tactics and causes many new players to overlook useful abilities they have that they probably don't use in PvE.

 

this is ludicrous and blatancy false.

No amount of teamwork overcomes getting one shotted by gear, period.

Tactics dont have anything to do with gear. Pre Bolster it was not uncommon to see one well geared guy fend off 3-4, you tell me what tactic they could employ to beat that?

Bottom line this may be the dumbest reply yet.

[dcgregorya]

Do you even know what an MMOs driving factor is on why they last several years as opposed to games like Halo that have to have a new one every year? Hell. Even FPS like Planetside understand progression and have it.

 

At any rate. Just ignore people giving honest opinions and just label them however you see fit. Sure that will go a long way in being a good teammate in this game.

 

There's lots of PVP progressions in various games that don't include gear and lots of progressions that involve gear that don't involve PVP.

 

PVP is about player/human skill, not a cookie you get for playing longer. Almost every other game gets this right including a large number of 'MMO' style games.

 

They make a new Halo every year because they *can* - people played Quake2 and other games for years and years without needing to switch because they were engaging on their own merits.

 

I've yet to see any kind of argument that driving people to gain better gear *improves* PVP engagement. If anything it keeps people from bothering with it.

Edited July 18, 2013 by dcgregorya

[RodneyMcNeely]

Seriously.. i mean they fixed it so your top level gear still has an advantage, but that's not good enough?

Why are some of you so terrified by this simple little thing whose entire goal is to give those with less time to farm comms a fighting chance?

Because SWTOR is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.

 

From the earliest days of Dungeons and Dragons, role-playing games have been about taking on the role of a single character and watching him or her grow in power as his or her story develops. This has occurred along two parallel tracks: level and equipment. As a character gains levels, he or she acquires new skills/talents/feats/whatever as the core of his or her build. Equipment has been used to provide bonuses/buffs/etc. to this skill set.

 

In SWTOR (which is based heavily upon its most successful predecessor, World of Warcraft) gear is a FUNDAMENTAL part of the game and is the ONLY way to grow in power after maximum level is achieved.

 

Hear that? THE. ONLY. WAY.

 

Do I mind not having a gear grind at endgame? Not in the slightest. I'd go for more talents/skills/combinations/whatever.

 

But when you MARKET your game as a GEAR-DRIVEN MMORPG, then REMOVE that staple from endgame because some people can't be bothered to do the content, YOU HAVE DROPPED THE BALL.

 

Plain and simple.

[Floplag]

My answer probably is different than the person you are asking, and probably because bolster doesn't bother me THAT much, but; what I don't like about it is I am working to gear up. Save to get a Partisan piece and pull its mods out, put it in my already augmented orange gear and when I Q, I go to see what I got only to find I gained a few points of health and a handfull in other stats. 1500 comms and I get some scraps. It just doesn't encourage me to keep repeating the same WZs over and over.

 

Multiply that by several pieces for just the base partisan, which is maybe slightly less effective than some PvE or crated gear (can't remember which one is between partisan and Conq gear right now) and my motivation decreases. Then figure in the work for the Conq gear being much longer than the partisan or optimizig stats which are terrible for the standard set and it just puts me off.

 

Then; we will have new PvP gear in a couple months. Brings up a lot of questions on what happens to the old after what happened to WH, EWH, BM and recruit. Not to mention, I feel like they will go through the cycle of tweaking bolster all over again, and get things wrong all over again, and it just is not appealing.

 

I'm all for the even playing field but if they are going to do it the bolster way, they need to adopt more of a KISS concept to it. Just baseline stats all get unless wearing the latest PvP gear, which will be higher than those base stats. For whatever reason though; they keep tweaking and keeping it a mystery and confusing.

 

i agree with much of this, however it still assume that gear progression is the point, which it isnt to me. I have PvP'd in every MMO i have played and am considered good at it. I have never cared about the whole gear thing as anything other than an irritating requirement to compete at the highest levels.

PUG WZs... are NOT, the highest levels. gear should not be a determining factor here in those places.

[dcgregorya]

Hear that? THE. ONLY. WAY.

 

Adding bold doesn't make it true. There's a lot of factors that come into winning a fight and when people fight with equal gear, you're not going to get a 50/50 distribution on who beats who (even with the same spec/class). The more skilled person is going to win consistently.

 

So saying the only way you can become better is by getting better gear is wrong. I'm going to win almost all my fights because people think like you do, whereas I actually work on being better at the game rather than grinding out gear. To give you an example, I've played every AC to 50/55, played every spec, so that I know them all and know how to deal with them. That will make me flat out better at PVP than someone who doesn't do that. Gear has nothing to do with that.

 

And if a class/spec consistently beats me I'm going to play that class/spec and see how people deal with it. This is how you become better at the game and a better PVP'er and this has nothing to do with an artificial grind.

 

This, practice and metagame/mechanical knowledge is what drives real player skill. What you're looking for is a cookie/advantage for "trying your best" for longer than other people. Sorry but no.

Edited July 18, 2013 by dcgregorya

[RodneyMcNeely]

I didn't say it was the only way you can get better. I said it was the only way you can grow in power.

 

Subtle difference, but an important distinction.

 

I happen to agree with everything you said. I'd be happy if we didn't have gear at all.

 

What I'm saying is that this game is built around gear, and the only way to improve your STATISTICS at endgame is with gear.

 

And no, bold doesn't make it true. BUT IT DOES MAKE ME FEEL MORE SMUG AND SUPERIOR.

 

OKRRRR?

 

[Floplag]

1) Terribad PvE'rs cry about gear gap. Get bolster welfare. Still fail. PvP'rs lose PvP development resources because PvP development resources were allocated to creating, fixing, refixing, refixing again.... bolster.

 

2) It's simply PvE welfare. "I beat NPC's to earn this PvE gear! I want to PvP in it!"

 

3) It's PvE welfare packaged as PvP updates. As such, it takes resources from PvP development projects and reallocates them to QQing PvE'rs who can't beat opponents who think.

 

The harsher and truer truth.

 

Its funny to me that this always start with "terribads".., when the basic argument and reason for bolster is that skill cannot overcome the gear gapo that existed prior to its implementation.

 

let me ask you this.. lets take a good PvPer freshly hitting 50 or 55 now... at this point he would be in greens, blues, maybe some purples if he was lucky or whatever... what chance did he have against the min/max'd PvPers regardless of any skill or class knowledge?

Its ok we all know the answer... he had none.. zero, zip, ziltch, nada, humpsquat, the big squirt.. in short, the fight was over before it began, regardless of the skill level of the player.

Even recruit gear wasnt enough to offset that, which is why that was scrapped.

So please save all the "Terribads" and "PvP Welfare".. its nonsense, and if you thought with your brain over your balls you would know that

[Floplag]

Because SWTOR is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.

 

From the earliest days of Dungeons and Dragons, role-playing games have been about taking on the role of a single character and watching him or her grow in power as his or her story develops. This has occurred along two parallel tracks: level and equipment. As a character gains levels, he or she acquires new skills/talents/feats/whatever as the core of his or her build. Equipment has been used to provide bonuses/buffs/etc. to this skill set.

 

In SWTOR (which is based heavily upon its most successful predecessor, World of Warcraft) gear is a FUNDAMENTAL part of the game and is the ONLY way to grow in power after maximum level is achieved.

 

Hear that? THE. ONLY. WAY.

 

 

Do I mind not having a gear grind at endgame? Not in the slightest. I'd go for more talents/skills/combinations/whatever.

 

But when you MARKET your game as a GEAR-DRIVEN MMORPG, then REMOVE that staple from endgame because some people can't be bothered to do the content, YOU HAVE DROPPED THE BALL.

 

Plain and simple.

 

you lost me at the WoW reference, seriously some of you do know these games existed long before WoW right? lol

 

However this game was NEVER marketed as a gear driven game... ever. nor has any other MMO in history been such. Progression is the goal in PvE... Winning is the goal in PvE.. gear is part of the equation but not all of it by any means.

 

Even still you never addressed the issue of why Bolster scares you so much.. in your gear, assuming your are topped out, you still have an advantage. your skill should win out., so why do you care?

[Technohic]

i agree with much of this, however it still assume that gear progression is the point, which it isnt to me. I have PvP'd in every MMO i have played and am considered good at it. I have never cared about the whole gear thing as anything other than an irritating requirement to compete at the highest levels.

PUG WZs... are NOT, the highest levels. gear should not be a determining factor here in those places.

 

Gear progression alone isn't everything, but with the limited content, it does count. Otherwise; I likely wouldn't care. I only mention it because I know that I have gotten gear and then looked to see where it was at basically because it became a goal being that it is new gear while we are still doing the same old content to get it. I have done plenty of PvP that leads to giving me nothing other than fun, but Warzones have not had that appeal for a long time, yet I still need to do it if I want the gear for the non-reward based fun outside of them.

[Akuryu]

let me ask you this.. lets take a good PvPer freshly hitting 50 or 55 now... at this point he would be in greens, blues, maybe some purples if he was lucky or whatever... what chance did he have against the min/max'd PvPers regardless of any skill or class knowledge?

Its ok we all know the answer... he had none.. zero, zip, ziltch, nada, humpsquat, the big squirt.. in short, the fight was over before it began, regardless of the skill level of the player.

Even recruit gear wasnt enough to offset that, which is why that was scrapped.

 

I consider myself a good PVPer. Pre-2.0, every character I ever leveled to 50 already had a full bank of comms ready to spend. When spent wisely, you could have 4-5 pieces of war hero gear on day one. I'm already competitive. Full war hero in less than a week. By week 2 I'm already well into min-maxing war hero. At no point in this timeline was I a "free kill" or a waste to the team.

 

Know who is a waste though? PVEers showing up with their shiny new bolster thinking it makes them equal to me and others who take PVP seriously. Free kill every time. I could do it naked. It's rofltastic.

[L-RANDLE]

I consider myself a good PVPer. Pre-2.0, every character I ever leveled to 50 already had a full bank of comms ready to spend. When spent wisely, you could have 4-5 pieces of war hero gear on day one. I'm already competitive. Full war hero in less than a week. By week 2 I'm already well into min-maxing war hero. At no point in this timeline was I a "free kill" or a waste to the team.

 

Know who is a waste though? PVEers showing up with their shiny new bolster thinking it makes them equal to me and others who take PVP seriously. Free kill every time. I could do it naked. It's rofltastic.

 

Which is also another reason why bolster at endgame is dumb.... Its not like gearing was even remotely hard in the old system. I had bis WH sets waiting for my alts as soon as I hit 50. Recruit gear was not the main problem anyway.

 

Recruit Smasher

Or

Recruit Merc

Couple that with serious gap in experience and L2P issues and you get the stompings.... This still hasn't changed, but you have removed the carrot for some PvPers....

[Ghost_Spectre]

How is it that the knife doesnt cut both ways?

 

A good question with a reasonably simple answer. PvP gear was designed for a specific purpose thanks to the inclusion of expertise. PvE gear is multipurpose gear that can be used by anyone everywhere, save for PvP. Bolster fixed it so PvE gear could be used in PvP; however, it would (or should) not have equal status via expertise as the PvP gear.

 

In my opinion, and it has always been like this, expertise is a stat that should never been introduced into this game. I've never played in an MMO with it until Star Wars. BioWare has their own reasons for it, and I for one cannot speak for them. However, from a developers perspective (15 years’ experience developing & writing in role-playing / miniature gaming) this is something that should never been used. Gear should be fundamentally the same stat-wise. Cosmetically and aesthetically different is something that they should have done. That way PvPer's could have their own gear with its only look that separates them from those who PvE. However, both gear with equal stats should be able to be used in either area of the game. This way, gear progression is still viable on both sides of the fence.

 

This is a problem BioWare created and now they are trying to rectify it. Bolster only gave this problem a partial fix. For a true fix, they must equalize the stats of Partisan and Conqueror gear to that of their mirrors in PvE gear. Then and only then do I believe you will see the "difference" in higher stats eliminated and corrected with PvP gear coming out higher as it should be with the bolstering of PvE gear.

[cashogy_reborn]

A good question with a reasonably simple answer. PvP gear was designed for a specific purpose thanks to the inclusion of expertise. PvE gear is multipurpose gear that can be used by anyone everywhere, save for PvP. Bolster fixed it so PvE gear could be used in PvP; however, it would (or should) not have equal status via expertise as the PvP gear.

 

In my opinion, and it has always been like this, expertise is a stat that should never been introduced into this game. I've never played in an MMO with it until Star Wars. BioWare has their own reasons for it, and I for one cannot speak for them. However, from a developers perspective (15 years’ experience developing & writing in role-playing / miniature gaming) this is something that should never been used. Gear should be fundamentally the same stat-wise. Cosmetically and aesthetically different is something that they should have done. That way PvPer's could have their own gear with its only look that separates them from those who PvE. However, both gear with equal stats should be able to be used in either area of the game. This way, gear progression is still viable on both sides of the fence.

 

This is a problem BioWare created and now they are trying to rectify it. Bolster only gave this problem a partial fix. For a true fix, they must equalize the stats of Partisan and Conqueror gear to that of their mirrors in PvE gear. Then and only then do I believe you will see the "difference" in higher stats eliminated and corrected with PvP gear coming out higher as it should be with the bolstering of PvE gear.

 

i agree with this.

 

id like to see expertise removed, and replaced with the same gear across all playstyles, with similar acquisition methods/time-frames.

 

i came from SWG, which did have its problems, but the gearing mechanism was not one of them. BiS gear was crafted or from a schematic looted from PvE that was then crafted. you could get unique item appearances from different PvE or PvP activities, but the base stats were the same pretty much across the board. it was a much better gearing system imo.

 

i think there is 0% chance of that happening here unfortunately.

[KamujinKravshera]

Its funny to me that this always start with "terribads".., when the basic argument and reason for bolster is that skill cannot overcome the gear gapo that existed prior to its implementation.

 

let me ask you this.. lets take a good PvPer freshly hitting 50 or 55 now... at this point he would be in greens, blues, maybe some purples if he was lucky or whatever... what chance did he have against the min/max'd PvPers regardless of any skill or class knowledge?

Its ok we all know the answer... he had none.. zero, zip, ziltch, nada, humpsquat, the big squirt.. in short, the fight was over before it began, regardless of the skill level of the player.

Even recruit gear wasnt enough to offset that, which is why that was scrapped.

So please save all the "Terribads" and "PvP Welfare".. its nonsense, and if you thought with your brain over your balls you would know that

 

It is PvE Welfare. Don't like it? Sorry, not into touchy feely, make you feel better about yourself descriptions. Bolster is not for new PvP players as pretty much every PvP player has told you. Gearing a new toon is trivial and quick to the point that they can compete. Bolster, as it was implemented was a feature to help PvE players in PvE gear die 2 GCD's later.

 

People who need bolster are by definition terribad because any decent player would have the good sense to wear the right gear for the content they were playing.

 

FWIW, I did just fine in my recruit gear for the few days I had to wear it. Just play smart and don't try to face tank the most geared guy on their team. Shut him down, distract him, make him less effective without just trying to out DPS him. It's all possible if you realize that you are playing a person who will react differently to different stimuli. This is the essence of PvP.

Edited July 18, 2013 by KamujinKravshera

[KhalDrogoe]

Because Bolster has been working as intended since April.

 

Tell me more about how Bolster is so awesome...

 

I agree with Pistols.

 

1 simple fix, remove bolster from Ranked. Then I could live with it/deal with it.

[Jadescythe]

A good question with a reasonably simple answer. PvP gear was designed for a specific purpose thanks to the inclusion of expertise. PvE gear is multipurpose gear that can be used by anyone everywhere, save for PvP. Bolster fixed it so PvE gear could be used in PvP; however, it would (or should) not have equal status via expertise as the PvP gear.

 

PvE gear is multipurpose gear that can be used by anyone everywhere, save for PvP? You mean, like, in any PvE area? Who would have guessed that PvE gear would work in all PvE areas? Seriously, the worst argument I've seen on the forums today.

[Ghost_Spectre]

It is PvE Welfare. Don't like it? Sorry, not into touchy feely, make you feel better about yourself descriptions. Bolster is not for new PvP players as pretty much every PvP player has told you. Gearing a new toon is trivial and quick to the point that they can compete. Bolster, as it was implemented was a feature to help PvE players in PvE gear die 2 GCD's later.

 

People who need bolster are by definition terribad because any decent player would have the good sense to wear the right gear for the content they were playing.

 

What you and others are saying about how "easy it is to gear up" is misleading and fundamentally incorrect. In saying that, you are painting with a big brush everyone in the game. However, the truth of the matter is this actually means "those who mostly PvP while doing only class quests if they do so at all." That is a dedicated PvPer player, a small minority of players compared to the total player population.

 

The truth of the matter is those who do not PvP until they completed their quests and reached the endgame may get involved in PvP. For them, it will take 2 weeks up to a month to fully gear them self while they are still participating in PvE endgame content. The dedicated PvP player can get themselves completely geared out in 2, 3 days tops because they have saved up 7250 comms (ranked and normal) after reaching level 40 to purchase everything they need save that of their main hand and off hand. That they can obtain in another day or two.

 

If a PvE player is working towards getting the best endgame gear they can obtain, the time it will take them to obtain their entry gear is even longer and more so for those going for full conqueror gear.

 

Your statement is fueling a perpetual falsehood about obtaining gear when you do not speak specifically of which type of player. For dedicated PvP player, you are correct. For the dedicated PvE player, you are flat wrong.