The REAL Most Powerful Sith

[S_W_LeGenD]

Thanaton didn't seem all that exceptional to me there is little to no feats on him and he very clearly tries to kill you early on with out the help of your ancestor he would have succeeded how many students did not receive that help and thus did not reach that lvl do to being cut down long before their do time rather then their force potential..... no my point stands the cut throatness of the position is a detriment not a bonus, the more cut throat the competition is the less likely the people at the top will be truly the most powerful and not just the ones that ended the lives of the most powerful before they could achieve what was rightfully theirs.

Competition actually ensures survival of the fittest in the world of Sith; it culls the weak. Yes, some die prematurely during the competition but not all. Dark Council members are supposed to be most powerful and talented representatives of their respective domains within the Empire and rightfully so. They cannot earn obedience from those who serve them without "superior power factor" among the Sith.

 

Also, it doesn't matters what you personally think about Darth Thanaton; he is canonically an exceptionally powerful Force-user (mentioned as a "supremely strong" Sith). His kill record includes Exal Kressh (a master of the dark side). His powers are so potent that he can disintegrate/destroy objects made of metal and destroy gigantic beasts/targets with them. His proficiency in Sith lightning is mind-boggling (he could even form protective shield around himself with his lightning).

 

Darth Nox grows in power in unnatural ways (he wields the combined might of several deadly spirits, in addition to his own) to defeat Darth Thanaton. According to Khem Val, Darth Nox rivaled the legendary Tulak Hord in power (whose powers are superior to even that of Master Yoda, as per revelations by Khem Val).

 

 

It is in the Dark Council chambers on Korriban that the Sith Inquisitor finally overcomes Thanaton and utterly destroys the once supreme Sith while the Dark Council bears witness. At their behest, the inquisitor takes Thanaton's seat, becomes a Darth, and joins the most powerful Sith in the Empire to rule as a member of the Dark Council. (SWTORE, Page 185)

 

 

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Edit: BTW to me the inquisitor should be refered to as "She" not he lol

Darth Nox is canonically hinted as a male.

Edited July 30, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[tunewalker]

Competition actually ensures survival of the fittest in the world of Sith; it culls the weak. Yes, some die prematurely during the competition but not all. Dark Council members are supposed to be most powerful and talented representatives of their respective domains within the Empire and rightfully so. They cannot earn obedience from those who serve them without "superior power factor" among the Sith.

 

Also, it doesn't matters what you personally think about Darth Thanaton; he is canonically an exceptionally powerful Force-user (mentioned as a "supremely strong" Sith). His kill record includes Exal Kressh (a master of the dark side). His powers are so potent that he can disintegrate/destroy objects made of metal and destroy gigantic beasts/targets with them. His proficiency in Sith lightning is mind-boggling (he could even form protective shield around himself with his lightning).

 

Darth Nox grows in power in unnatural ways (he wields the combined might of several deadly spirits, in addition to his own) to defeat Darth Thanaton. According to Khem Val, Darth Nox rivaled the legendary Tulak Hord in power (whose powers are superior to even that of Master Yoda, as per revelations by Khem Val).

 

 

It is in the Dark Council chambers on Korriban that the Sith Inquisitor finally overcomes Thanaton and utterly destroys the once supreme Sith while the Dark Council bears witness. At their behest, the inquisitor takes Thanaton's seat, becomes a Darth, and joins the most powerful Sith in the Empire to rule as a member of the Dark Council. (SWTORE, Page 185)

 

 

---

 

 

Darth Nox is canonically hinted as a male.

 

1. that is your opinion, the darth Bane novel disagree's with it, so we have reason to believe it is C-cannon false.

 

2. Khem doesn't know yoda nor did he ever say Tulak hord was as powerful as yoda only that the people of this era were not as powerful as him confirming even further that you are placing to much stock in these people and that they are much weaker then you think.

 

 

Simply put man you have yet to give any evidence to support your theories no wonder no one agrees with you.

Edited July 30, 2013 by tunewalker

[S_W_LeGenD]

1. that is your opinion, the darth Bane novel disagree's with it, so we have reason to believe it is C-cannon false.

Care to elaborate? You just keep ignoring evidence which is not a healthy thing to do.

Edited July 30, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[tunewalker]

Care to elaborate? You just keep ignoring evidence which is not a healthy thing to do.

 

Darth Bane's rule of 2 is in direct conflict with what you are talking about all the back stabbing actually prevents the strongest from rulling.

 

And no canonical evidence was given for the idea that competition meant the most powerful people of that time if you can point me to an in-universe thing that states other wise please do if not its an opinion nothing else.

 

 

example:

 

"Competition actually ensures survival of the fittest in the world of Sith; it culls the weak. Yes, some die prematurely during the competition but not all. Dark Council members are supposed to be most powerful and talented representatives of their respective domains within the Empire and rightfully so. They cannot earn obedience from those who serve them without "superior power factor" among the Sith." opinion contradicted by rule of 2.

 

"Also, it doesn't matters what you personally think about Darth Thanaton; he is canonically an exceptionally powerful Force-user (mentioned as a "supremely strong" Sith). His kill record includes Exal Kressh (a master of the dark side). His powers are so potent that he can disintegrate/destroy objects made of metal and destroy gigantic beasts/targets with them. His proficiency in Sith lightning is mind-boggling (he could even form protective shield around himself with his lightning). " Fact no disputing

 

 

"Darth Nox grows in power in unnatural ways (he wields the combined might of several deadly spirits, in addition to his own) to defeat Darth Thanaton. According to Khem Val, Darth Nox rivaled the legendary Tulak Hord in power" Fact no disputing

 

"(whose powers are superior to even that of Master Yoda, as per revelations by Khem Val)." Opinion that has no basis as Khem Val never met yoda, thus could never make any such revelation, the very definition of stretching and reaching with out any evidence.

 

 

See I can separate between facts and opinions .

Edited July 30, 2013 by tunewalker

[S_W_LeGenD]

Darth Bane's rule of 2 is in direct conflict with what you are talking about all the back stabbing actually prevents the strongest from rulling.

You are wrong! The purpose of Rule of Two was to make Sith stronger once again, not weaker. Also, ground realities of Rule of Two do not apply to ground realities of the Sith Empire of Tenebrae because the Sith were in abundance during the TOR era. The Sith were significantly weakened after the fall of the Sith Empire created by Tenebrae and this eventually led to creation of the brotherhood.

 

Darth Bane began to despise the Brotherhood because it promoted equality and not competition:

 

 

In theory all in the Brotherhood were equal, but Bane was smart enough to see the real truth. In practice the Sith needed leaders, Masters like Kaan, or Lord Qordis here at the Academy. The strong always stepped forward; the weak had no choice but to follow.

 

 

 

They had twisted and perverted the ancient order of the Sith. The Academy’s teachings flew in the face of everything Bane had learned in the archives about the ways of the dark side. Kaan had cast aside the true power of the individual and replaced it with the false glory of self-sacrifice in the name of a worthy cause. He sought to destroy the Jedi through might of arms, rather than cunning. Worst of all, he proclaimed that all were equal in the Brotherhood of the Sith. But Bane knew equality was a myth. The strong were meant to rule; the weak, to serve.

 

The Brotherhood of Darkness stood for everything that was wrong with the modern Sith. They had fallen from the true path. Their failure was the reason the spirits of the Dark Lords had vanished. None on Korriban--not Master, not apprentice-had been worthy of their wisdom; none worthy of their power. They had simply faded away, scattered like a handful of dust cast across the desert sand. Bane could see the truth so clearly now. Yet Qordis and the others were forever blind. They followed Kaan as if he had bound them up with some secret spell.

 

 

Revelations from Revan's holocron which became the cornerstone for Rule of Two philosophy:-

 

 

"The dark side offers power for power’s sake. You must crave it. Covet it. You must seek power above all else, with no reservation or hesitation."

 

 

 

"True power can come only to those who embrace the transformation. There can be no compromise. Mercy, compassion, loyalty: all these things will prevent you from claiming what is rightfully yours. Those who follow the dark side must cast aside these conceits. Those who do not-those who try to walk the path of moderation-will fail, dragged down by their own weakness."

 

 

During the competition, all individuals are vulnerable regardless of being weak or strong:-

 

 

"Those who accept the power of the dark side must also accept the challenge of holding on to it," Revan continued. "By its very nature, the dark side invites rivalry and strife. This is the greatest strength of the Sith: it culls the weak from our order. Yet this rivalry can also be our greatest weakness. The strong must be careful lest they be overwhelmed by the ambitions of those beneath them working in concert. Any Master who instructs more than one apprentice in the ways of the dark side is a fool. In time the apprentices will unite their strength and overthrow the Master. It is inevitable. Axiomatic. That is why each Master must have only one student."

 

 

The leaders are supposed to be the embodiment of strength:

 

 

"This is also the reason there can be only one Dark Lord. The Sith must be ruled by a single leader: the very embodiment of the strength and power of the dark side. If the leader grows weak, another must rise to seize the mantle. The strong rule; the weak are meant to serve. This is the way it must be."

 

 

The aforementioned spoilers are from Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction.

 

When Bane orchestrates the fall of the Brotherhood, he basically eliminates the weak representatives of the Sith and this paves way for him to make the Sith strong once again by adopting the ancient Sith philosophies.

 

"When your power eclipses mine I will become expendable. This is the Rule of Two: one Master and one apprentice. When you are ready to claim the mantle of Dark Lord as your own, you must do so by eliminating me." (Darth Bane to Darth Zannah)

 

And no canonical evidence was given for the idea that competition meant the most powerful people of that time if you can point me to an in-universe thing that states other wise please do if not its an opinion nothing else.

Are you checking out the spoilers in my posts? I guess not.

 

"Competition actually ensures survival of the fittest in the world of Sith; it culls the weak. Yes, some die prematurely during the competition but not all. Dark Council members are supposed to be most powerful and talented representatives of their respective domains within the Empire and rightfully so. They cannot earn obedience from those who serve them without "superior power factor" among the Sith." opinion contradicted by rule of 2.

See above.

 

"Also, it doesn't matters what you personally think about Darth Thanaton; he is canonically an exceptionally powerful Force-user (mentioned as a "supremely strong" Sith). His kill record includes Exal Kressh (a master of the dark side). His powers are so potent that he can disintegrate/destroy objects made of metal and destroy gigantic beasts/targets with them. His proficiency in Sith lightning is mind-boggling (he could even form protective shield around himself with his lightning). " Fact no disputing

So you accept that Thanaton is an exceptionally powerful Force-user?

 

Keep in mind that you doubted Thanaton's power earlier.

 

"Darth Nox grows in power in unnatural ways (he wields the combined might of several deadly spirits, in addition to his own) to defeat Darth Thanaton. According to Khem Val, Darth Nox rivaled the legendary Tulak Hord in power" Fact no disputing

Good!

 

"(whose powers are superior to even that of Master Yoda, as per revelations by Khem Val)." Opinion that has no basis as Khem Val never met yoda, thus could never make any such revelation, the very definition of stretching and reaching with out any evidence.

Khem Val himself was very powerful Force-user and an apprentice of Tulak Hord. According to the former, Tulak Hord once forced a ship the size of Endar Spire from the sky to the ground. Endar Spire is 4000 tons class ship; Yoda have never demonstrated a comparable feat, though he came close by colliding two Transport ships in to each other in mid-air.

 

See I can separate between facts and opinions .

You are confused and/or lack in knowledge.

Edited July 30, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[tunewalker]

"You are wrong! The purpose of Rule of Two was to make Sith stronger once again, not weaker. "

 

 

That was my point, the rule of two was instated to make them stronger, while what was happening during the TOR era made them stagnate and while a few of the powerful ones were truly powerful not all that rose their were, while every single member of the Rule of two on the other hand was powerful

 

You misunderstood what I said.

 

 

"Yet this rivalry can also be our greatest weakness. The strong must be careful lest they be overwhelmed by the ambitions of those beneath them working in concert. Any Master who instructs more than one apprentice in the ways of the dark side is a fool. In time the apprentices will unite their strength and overthrow the Master. It is inevitable. Axiomatic. That is why each Master must have only one student."

 

 

"This is also the reason there can be only one Dark Lord. The Sith must be ruled by a single leader: the very embodiment of the strength and power of the dark side. If the leader grows weak, another must rise to seize the mantle. The strong rule; the weak are meant to serve. This is the way it must be.""

 

right there it says it, with multiple masters and multiple students the order is weaker then the later members of the Banite Sith of which vader is apart of all you did was link exactly what I was talking about

Edited July 30, 2013 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

"So you accept that Thanaton is an exceptionally powerful Force-user?

 

Keep in mind that you doubted Thanaton's power earlier"

 

That I did you provided evidence but saying someone is powerful doesn't say how powerful and is ultimately meaningless when making comparisons, what you provided was information to prove my statement wrong I can admit when my lack of information is there and I had a lack there of.

 

"Khem Val himself was very powerful Force-user and an apprentice of Tulak Hord. According to the former, Tulak Hord once forced a ship the size of Endar Spire from the sky to the ground. Endar Spire is 4000 tons class ship; Yoda have never demonstrated a comparable feat, though he came close by colliding two Transport ships in to each other in mid-air."

 

 

Unfortunately there is 1 problem with this feat, we do not know the circumstance in which it was performed, was it at a sight of a dark side nexus that would have been amping Tulak, did he have an artifact that was amping him, did he use a ritual to pull power from individuals for a momentary amp, for this reason alone we cant rely to heavily on it, though it is impressive, another issue is yoda by the point you are talking about was nearly 200 years past his prime.

Edited July 30, 2013 by tunewalker

[S_W_LeGenD]

"You are wrong! The purpose of Rule of Two was to make Sith stronger once again, not weaker. "

 

 

That was my point, the rule of two was instated to make them stronger, while what was happening during the TOR era made them stagnate and while a few of the powerful ones were truly powerful not all that rose their were, while every single member of the Rule of two on the other hand was powerful

 

You misunderstood what I said.

You are confusing the "ground realities" of the Brotherhood with those of an ancient Sith Empire; you are utterly wrong and misguided in this regard. The Brotherhood came in to the existence after the fall of the ancient Sith Empire.

 

The ancient Sith Empire was true to original Sith traditions; it promoted competition. In contrast, the Brotherhood promoted equality and minimized competition.

 

Understand?

 

"Yet this rivalry can also be our greatest weakness. The strong must be careful lest they be overwhelmed by the ambitions of those beneath them working in concert. Any Master who instructs more than one apprentice in the ways of the dark side is a fool. In time the apprentices will unite their strength and overthrow the Master. It is inevitable. Axiomatic. That is why each Master must have only one student."

 

 

"This is also the reason there can be only one Dark Lord. The Sith must be ruled by a single leader: the very embodiment of the strength and power of the dark side. If the leader grows weak, another must rise to seize the mantle. The strong rule; the weak are meant to serve. This is the way it must be.""

 

right there it says it, with multiple masters and multiple students the order is weaker then the later members of the Banite Sith of which vader is apart of all you did was link exactly what I was talking about

Darth Revan describe the "ground realities" of his own Sith Empire; he didn't serve the Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) and his Empire.

 

I suggest that you buy this book and correct your misconceptions: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-The-Republic-Encyclopedia/dp/0756698391

 

That I did you provided evidence but saying someone is powerful doesn't say how powerful and is ultimately meaningless when making comparisons, what you provided was information to prove my statement wrong I can admit when my lack of information is there and I had a lack there of.

A step in the right direction.

 

Unfortunately there is 1 problem with this feat, we do not know the circumstance in which it was performed, was it at a sight of a dark side nexus that would have been amping Tulak, did he have an artifact that was amping him, did he use a ritual to pull power from individuals for a momentary amp, for this reason alone we cant rely to heavily on it, though it is impressive, another issue is yoda by the point you are talking about was nearly 200 years past his prime.

Well, we have a useful hint now about the power of Tulak Hord at least.

Edited July 30, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[tunewalker]

You are confusing the "ground realities" of the Brotherhood with an ancient Sith Empire; you are utterly wrong and misguided in this regard. The Brotherhood came in to the existence after the fall of the ancient Sith Empire.

 

The ancient Sith Empire was true to original Sith traditions; it promoted competition. In contrast, the Brotherhood promoted equality and minimized competition.

 

Understand?

 

 

Darth Revan describe the "ground realities" of his own Sith Empire; he didn't serve the Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) and his Empire.

 

I suggest that you buy this book and correct your misconceptions: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-The-Republic-Encyclopedia/dp/0756698391

 

I understand that the Brotherhood came after but it doesn't change the principles of the TOR era would still stagnate it as befitting the talk in the rule of two the portions that I linked was what we saw, by having a dark council we have multiple masters, with what we see at the start of the inquisitor story while they are trying to find 1 apprentice at the start they have more then 1 student this is against the rule that was supposed to culminate in the sith becoming stronger then EVER before including the TOR era, when they say EVER its not all encompassing as it doesn't take into account the future but it is all encompassing when talking about the past.

 

"Well, we have a useful hint now about the power of Tulak Hord at least. "

 

Absolutely we do just not a way to pinpoint it exactly which is a real shame.

 

 

Edit: got to say not as bad to debate with in some areas as I thought you would be , but there will likely be a point when the ambiguity of things starts to mean we will hit the agree to disagree wall as some speculation or opinion hits as is nearly inevitable but hey humans what you gonna do right?

 

Edit2: to be more specific cus I realized what I said doesn't really address the problem, competition is not in and of itself bad, it is to much competition that is bad, which is the reason for the whole only 1 master and only 1 student, by having more then one master the knowledge base gets spread around and you have masters fighting among themselves rather then training their students to surpass them, by having that infighting among masters the powerful can still be cut down or stunted. That's what Revan was talking about specifically when he was talking about only 1 master.

 

So all-in-all conclusion

Lack of competition is bad

Healthy competition: is the greatest

To much competition: can stagnate

 

Vader was a part of the Healthy competition line while the DC members were part of the to much competition line.

Edited July 30, 2013 by tunewalker

[S_W_LeGenD]

I understand that the Brotherhood came after but it doesn't change the principles of the TOR era would still stagnate it as befitting the talk in the rule of two the portions that I linked was what we saw, by having a dark council we have multiple masters, with what we see at the start of the inquisitor story while they are trying to find 1 apprentice at the start they have more then 1 student this is against the rule that was supposed to culminate in the sith becoming stronger then EVER before including the TOR era, when they say EVER its not all encompassing as it doesn't take into account the future but it is all encompassing when talking about the past.

Stagnation arises from lack of competition; not with competition. This is the key difference that you haven't realized yet. The benefit of competition is to ensure the survival of the fittest.

 

The Sith Empire of Tenebrae is very complex in its design and structure; it contains lot of Sith in it (and not just normal individuals). The concept of Dark Council was introduced to ensure that different domains of the Sith Empire would function without hindrances and prosper with passage of time.

 

 

Strength, Order and Discipline unite the Empire. Such ideals are won the cost of freedom, a sacrifice Imperials are expected to surrender without question. United by a supremely powerful Emperor, ruled by the Force-sensitive Sith, bolstered by the devoted citizens, and built by the sweat and blood of slaves - this is the hierarchy that has shaped and empowered the Empire for more than a thousand years.

 

 

 

Sith command respect, fear, and reverence of all non-Force users in the Empire. Even the lowliest Sith, fresh out of training, is regarded as a god among the people. Decorated Imperial military veterans often bridle at calling a brash young Sith "my lord," but insults are rare, as the vast majority of Imperial citizens tremble from dread and admiration whenever a Sith enters their presence. The consequences for not showing proper respect are swift and brutal. When Sith Lord Praven was insulted by lack of respect shown to him by a stubborn Imperial major, he choked the insolent officer and forced the man's apology before breaking his neck.

 

 

The aforementioned revelations make it apparent that the inner structure (hierarchy) of this ancient Sith Empire is "power factor" driven. Remember that this is TRUE Sith Empire.

Edited July 30, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[tunewalker]

Stagnation arises from lack of competition; not with competition. This is the key difference that you haven't realized yet. The benefit of competition is to ensure the survival of the fittest.

 

The Sith Empire of Tenebrae is very complex in its design and structure; it contains lot of Sith in it (and not just normal individuals). The concept of Dark Council was introduced to ensure that different domains of the Sith Empire would function without hindrances and prosper with passage of time.

 

 

Strength, Order and Discipline unite the Empire. Such ideals are won the cost of freedom, a sacrifice Imperials are expected to surrender without question. United by a supremely powerful Emperor, ruled by the Force-sensitive Sith, bolstered by the devoted citizens, and built by the sweat and blood of slaves - this is the hierarchy that has shaped and empowered the Empire for more than a thousand years.

 

 

 

Sith command respect, fear, and reverence of all non-Force users in the Empire. Even the lowliest Sith, fresh out of training, is regarded as a god among the people. Decorated Imperial military veterans often bridle at calling a brash young Sith "my lord," but insults are rare, as the vast majority of Imperial citizens tremble from dread and admiration whenever a Sith enters their presence. The consequences for not showing proper respect are swift and brutal. When Sith Lord Praven was insulted by lack of respect shown to him by a stubborn Imperial major, he choked the insolent officer and forced the man's apology before breaking his neck.

 

 

The aforementioned revelations make it apparent that the inner structure (hierarchy) of this ancient Sith Empire is "power factor" driven. Remember that this is TRUE Sith Empire.

 

By the definition of what the Sith'ari was supposed to do though it would still by definition be an inferior design to the Rule of 2, even if it was vastly superior to any other design during or after allowing it to be the most powerful order of sith outside the Final members of the Rule of 2 again of which Vader was apart of.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Edit: got to say not as bad to debate with in some areas as I thought you would be , but there will likely be a point when the ambiguity of things starts to mean we will hit the agree to disagree wall as some speculation or opinion hits as is nearly inevitable but hey humans what you gonna do right?

Why did you thought that I would be "bad" in some areas in the first place?

 

Edit2: to be more specific cus I realized what I said doesn't really address the problem, competition is not in and of itself bad, it is to much competition that is bad, which is the reason for the whole only 1 master and only 1 student, by having more then one master the knowledge base gets spread around and you have masters fighting among themselves rather then training their students to surpass them, by having that infighting among masters the powerful can still be cut down or stunted. That's what Revan was talking about specifically when he was talking about only 1 master.

Actually the Sith Empire of Tenebrae is very complex in its form and structure; it necessitated the existence of a Dark Council to run its affairs. Competition for acquiring seats in the Dark Council is cutthroat which ensures that only the strongest and smartest last in it; this isn't detrimental to the quality of individuals who make it to the Dark Council otherwise, we wouldn't have individuals like Marr reaching and thriving in it. Do the math.

 

So all-in-all conclusion

Lack of competition is bad

Healthy competition: is the greatest

To much competition: can stagnate

 

Vader was a part of the Healthy competition line while the DC members were part of the to much competition line.

Vader faced no competition in the Empire he served. Sidious did not wanted lot of Force-users serving in his Empire because he feared challenge himself. He had shaped his Empire in the manner that it dependent upon his influence and talents to last.

 

By the definition of what the Sith'ari was supposed to do though it would still by definition be an inferior design to the Rule of 2, even if it was vastly superior to any other design during or after allowing it to be the most powerful order of sith outside the Final members of the Rule of 2 again of which Vader was apart of.

Well, this is your opinion.

 

RoT ensured ascension of strong Sith again; not necessarily strongest ever.

Edited July 30, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[StarSquirrel]

May I direct you to This thread? We've all heard the same argument a thousand times in a thousand ways. I've resorted to just saying, it is G-cannon that Rule of Two is the best as Sidious (most powerful sith ever per G-cannon) came from that line.

 

Yes I pulled the G-cannon card, no rebuttal will save you now.

 

And if you refuse to accept G-cannon go ahead that is your choice, but all your arguments in SW general discussion usually get ignored after that. Somethings are debatable, others have been given permanent answers much to the chagrin of many fans.

 

Now if this has nothing to do with your argument with Tune and I'm mistaken I apologize, it just seemed you where insinuating that Tenebre or his DC are at some level even close to Sidious and Vader in force power.

[tunewalker]

Why did you thought that I would be "bad" in some areas in the first place?

 

 

Actually the Sith Empire of Tenebrae is very complex in its form and structure; it necessitated the existence of a Dark Council to run its affairs. Competition for acquiring seats in the Dark Council is cutthroat which ensures that only the strongest and smartest last in it; this isn't detrimental to the quality of individuals who make it to the Dark Council otherwise, we wouldn't have individuals like Marr reaching and thriving in it. Do the math.

 

 

Vader faced no competition in the Empire he served. Sidious did not wanted lot of Force-users serving in his Empire because he feared challenge himself. He had shaped his Empire in the manner that it dependent upon his influence and talents to last.

 

1. Again this is where I was talking about the agree to disagree wall. You just said exactly what I was talking about, the masters are competeing with each other to get the seats the inherent weakness in this means they are not training their students and it also means that some still get cut down before their prime or powerful students to come to over throw their master like they should because their master is taken from them by another prematurely or another master kills them prematurely. The prophecy of the Sith'ari says you are wrong.

 

2. Vader faced the competition of Dooku, Galen Marek (of which he lost to) and most importantly Sidious himself, Vader's whole goal in life was to get powerful enough to kill his master this is what the Rule of 2 was all about, so he faced plenty of competition and had plenty of reason to push himself, that reason was Sidious.

 

3.

"Well, this is your opinion.

 

RoT ensured ascension of strong Sith again; not necessarily strongest ever. "

 

"The Sith'ari will raise the Sith from death and make them stronger than before"

 

From the prophecy, plus G-cannon statements, so that's C-cannon and G-cannon confirmation Rule of two did culminate in the most powerful sithlords to ever exist. It specifically says so.

Edited July 30, 2013 by tunewalker

[S_W_LeGenD]

May I direct you to This thread? We've all heard the same argument a thousand times in a thousand ways. I've resorted to just saying, it is G-cannon that Rule of Two is the best as Sidious (most powerful sith ever per G-cannon) came from that line.

 

Yes I pulled the G-cannon card, no rebuttal will save you now.

 

And if you refuse to accept G-cannon go ahead that is your choice, but all your arguments in SW general discussion usually get ignored after that. Somethings are debatable, others have been given permanent answers much to the chagrin of many fans.

 

Now if this has nothing to do with your argument with Tune and I'm mistaken I apologize, it just seemed you where insinuating that Tenebre or his DC are at some level even close to Sidious and Vader in force power.

The discussion here is about Vader; not Sidious. Thanks for pulling G-canon card without reason.

[StarSquirrel]

The discussion here is about Vader; not Sidious. Thanks for pulling G-canon card without reason.

 

Nope not without reason, Vader was by G-cannon very close in power to Sidious. He also, as Tune explained, faced many challenges. He also hunted down and often dueled members of the greatest order of Jedi to ever exist. I don't see what there is to debate here...

[S_W_LeGenD]

1. Again this is where I was talking about the agree to disagree wall. You just said exactly what I was talking about, the masters are competeing with each other to get the seats the inherent weakness in this means they are not training their students and it also means that some still get cut down before their prime or powerful students to come to over throw their master like they should because their master is taken from them by another prematurely or another master kills them prematurely. The prophecy of the Sith'ari says you are wrong.

You are assuming lot of things here. All Sith in the Empire receive formal training in the ways of the Force in the Academies; the environment of the Academies is such that it ensures survival of the best acolytes typically. After completion of deadly trails, these acolytes are crowned as Lords and then are free to serve the Empire as per their wishes. The competition takes place among these individuals for acquiring seats in the Dark Council as they gain experience and power with passage of time. Some play dirty while others play fair; this is the nature of the Sith. However, dirty players do not necessarily make it to the Dark Council. If they do somehow, they get killed as well because they are not fit for the roles/responsibilities of the Dark Council. However, the chain of prospective suitors is long so quality Sith churn out time and again for the Dark Council without shortage.

 

2. Vader faced the competition of Dooku, Galen Marek (of which he lost to) and most importantly Sidious himself, Vader's whole goal in life was to get powerful enough to kill his master this is what the Rule of 2 was all about, so he faced plenty of competition and had plenty of reason to push himself, that reason was Sidious.

Well, in this manner, Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) himself faced competition/rebellion. He held the "top spot" due to his unrivalled power; he was so damn powerful. Every individual in the Sith Empire was susceptible to challenge.

 

Nope not without reason, Vader was by G-cannon very close in power to Sidious. He also, as Tune explained, faced many challenges. He also hunted down and often dueled members of the greatest order of Jedi to ever exist. I don't see what there is to debate here...

Vader was close to power of G-canon Sidious; not the DE era one, a much stronger incarnation of Sidious.

 

Also, I am not saying that Vader remained untested but that he didn't faced heavy competition within the Empire he served which would really test his limits.

Edited July 30, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[tunewalker]

You are assuming lot of things yourself. All Sith in the Empire receive formal training in the ways of the Force in the Academies; the environment of the Academies is such that it ensures survival of the best acolytes typically. After completion of deadly trails, these acolytes are crowned as Lords and then are free to serve the Empire as per their wishes. The competition takes place among these individuals for acquiring seats in the Dark Council as they gain experience and power with passage of time. Some play dirty while others play fair; this is the nature of the Sith. However, dirty players do not necessarily make it to the Dark Council. If they do somehow, they get killed as well because they are not fit for the roles/responsibilities of the Dark Council. However, the chain of prospective suitors is long so quality Sith churn out time and again without shortage.

 

 

Well, in this manner, Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) himself faced competition/rebellion. He held the "top spot" due to his unrivalled power; he was so damn powerful. Every individual in the Sith Empire was susceptible to challenge.

 

1. Like I said agree to disagree wall because both have some to the somewhat speculation portion. Many high quality sith being produced by this method? ABSOLUTELY, but as high quality as the rule of two no not according to the Sith'ari prophecy or G-cannon no.

 

 

2. Absolutely he was powerful as hell and he abosolutely was the most powerful of his time and more powerful then any one that ever came before him never disputed that, ever.

 

"Vader was close to power of G-canon Sidious; not the DE era one, a much stronger incarnation of Sidious."

 

3. Same Sidious, they are no different from one another.

Edited July 30, 2013 by tunewalker

[S_W_LeGenD]

1. Like I said agree to disagree wall because both have some to the somewhat speculation portion. Many high quality sith being produced by this method ABSOLUTELY,

it is not necessary for every Dark Council seat to go vacant in a matter of months OR less; some Dark Council members last decades in their respective positions, tackling all kinds of challenges in the process. Emperor wants the Dark Council members to be successful; not fail.

 

but as high quality as the rule of two no not according to the Sith'ari prophecy or G-cannon no.

Their is no hard and fast rule in this aspect and neither G-canon dictates that ancient era Sith cannot be powerful like those who were part of RoT. This philosophy was founded on the basis of knowledge of ancient Sith by the way.

 

2. Absolutely he was powerful as hell and he abosolutely was the most powerful of his time and more powerful then any one that ever came before him never disputed that, ever.

He is among the most powerful Force-users of the mythos in its entirety.

 

3. Same Sidious, they are no different from one another.

It seems like you have too much to learn.

Edited July 30, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[tunewalker]

"Their is no hard and fast rule in this aspect and neither G-canon dictates that ancient era Sith cannot be powerful like those who were part of RoT. This philosophy was founded on the basis of knowledge of ancient Sith by the way."

 

 

 

The Sith'ari will be free of limits.

The Sith'ari will lead the Sith and destroy them.

The Sith'ari will raise the Sith from death and make them stronger than before.

 

 

Bane was the Sith'ari and put in the rule of two, because of this the last line is referring to the rule of two, as Vitiate's empire came befrore this then the "stronger than before" line relates to all that came before bane, the Rule of Two then by definition had the most powerful sith in it and many of which would have been above the dark council's power who were nothing in comparison to Vitiate any way.

 

 

 

"It seems like you have too much to learn. "

 

no, unless you can provide proof they are different its just another opinion, and as my teacher once said "We must all respect each other's oppinions...... no matter how wrong yours is" lol JK

Edited July 30, 2013 by tunewalker

[S_W_LeGenD]

"Their is no hard and fast rule in this aspect and neither G-canon dictates that ancient era Sith cannot be powerful like those who were part of RoT. This philosophy was founded on the basis of knowledge of ancient Sith by the way."

 

 

 

The Sith'ari will be free of limits.

The Sith'ari will lead the Sith and destroy them.

The Sith'ari will raise the Sith from death and make them stronger than before.

 

 

Bane was the Sith'ari and put in the rule of two, because of this the last line is referring to the rule of two, as Vitiate's empire came befrore this then the "stronger than before" line relates to all that came before bane, the Rule of Two then by definition had the most powerful sith in it and many of which would have been above the dark council's power who were nothing in comparison to Vitiate any way.

You are putting too much faith in "prophesy" based statements; prophecies are typically metaphorical in nature. This prophesy applies to "ground realities" of Bane's era; he fulfilled the criteria of this prophesy by destroying the Brotherhood (decaying Order) and set the stage for rise of relatively stronger Sith (fresh Order which adheres to original Sith ideals).

 

The Sith Empire in question here is representative of the original Sith ideals so it is excluded from the criteria of the weak/decaying Order; same is true for Revan's Sith Empire as well. Use common sense and focus on revelations in the sourcebooks on the whole.

Edited July 30, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[tunewalker]

You are putting too much faith in "prophesy" based statements; prophecies are typically metaphorical in nature. It applies to "ground realities" of Bane's era; he fulfilled the criteria of this prophesy by destroying the Brotherhood (decaying Order) and set stage for rise of relatively stronger Sith (fresh Order which adheres to original Sith ideals).

 

The Sith Empire in question here is representative of the original Sith ideals so it is excluded from the criteria of the weak/decaying Order. Use common sense.

 

I am using common sense, please do not insult me I have felt we have been doing a nice clean debate insulting me is not productive, so I ask that you refrain from that.

 

Now you make a good point, other then the G-cannon confirmation of its truth, as with the prophecy of the chosen one which did in fact come true word for word, these 2 prophecies are the same and are abosolutely true. Unless of course you have an in-universe statement or something from Leland Chee that says other wise? I would love to see it, if not then your opinion alone is being used to contradict a C-cannon Prophecy and a G-cannon confirmation of said prophecy, and opinion alone can not sway me. If nothing can be provided then we will have hit our impass, I am stubborn I admit it, but going by these things it makes little room for speculation, the more speculation the more inaccurate the information gets.

[S_W_LeGenD]

I am using common sense, please do not insult me I have felt we have been doing a nice clean debate insulting me is not productive, so I ask that you refrain from that.

I did not mention that term with the intention to insult you but rather in the sense that it is important to apply common sense in some areas. Still if it bothers you then I would not use it.

 

Now you make a good point, other then the G-cannon confirmation of its truth, as with the prophecy of the chosen one which did in fact come true word for word, these 2 prophecies are the same and are abosolutely true. Unless of course you have an in-universe statement or something from Leland Chee that says other wise? I would love to see it, if not then your opinion alone is being used to contradict a C-cannon Prophecy and a G-cannon confirmation of said prophecy, and opinion alone can not sway me. If nothing can be provided then we will have hit our impass, I am stubborn I admit it, but going by these things it makes little room for speculation, the more speculation the more inaccurate the information gets.

Sith'ari is not a G-canon invention; it is a C-canon invention. Also, prophesies can come true but they do not reflect upon the "ground realities" of all of the history but rather those of a certain era.

 

The prophesy of The Chosen One also came true but not necessarily in the way as was expected; an individual with extreme Midichlorian count did came in to existence (Anakin Skywalker) but he didn't became as powerful as he was gifted and expected but still fulfilled the prophesy by destroying Sidious. But then again, the prophesy failed because Sidious returned and stronger then ever before.

 

Therefore, validation of prophesies should be treated with caution.

 

no, unless you can provide proof they are different its just another opinion, and as my teacher once said "We must all respect each other's oppinions...... no matter how wrong yours is" lol JK

Proof exists in this thread.

 

Check my post # 314 in page 32 of this thread.

Edited July 30, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[tunewalker]

I did not mention that term with the intention to insult you but rather in the sense that it is important to apply common sense in some areas. Still if it bothers you then I would not use it.

 

 

Sith'ari is not a G-canon invention; it is a C-canon invention. Also, prophesies can come true but they do not reflect upon the "ground realities" of all of the history but rather those of a certain era.

 

The prophesy of The Chosen One also came true but not necessarily in the way as was expected; an individual with extreme Midichlorian count did came in to existence (Anakin Skywalker) but he didn't became as powerful as he was gifted and expected but still fulfilled the prophesy by destroying Sidious. But then again, the prophesy failed because Sidious returned and stronger then ever before.

 

Therefore, validation of prophesies should be treated with caution.

 

 

Proof exists in this thread.

 

Check my post # 314 in page 32 of this thread,

 

1. The difference with the "chosen one" prophecy is power was not in that prophecy at all

 

2. Going to start off by saying I likely missed something in #314 because it was long as hell, but that being said I did not see any direct C-cannon, T-cannon, or G-cannon source that said any part of the Sith'ari prophecy was false, without that I cant be swayed no amount of feats will do it as the nature of the Force is largely a mystery so just how much power it takes to do different things is unclear. If I missed that statemtent then I appoligize and please point me to it, if there was no such statement and it was just a list of feats that I saw then I am sorry, but as I said that's not enough for me, and our impass is hit.

Edited July 30, 2013 by tunewalker

[S_W_LeGenD]

1. The difference with the "chosen one" prophecy is power was not in that prophecy at all

Really?

 

"Fully defeated by just anyone, the dark side cannot be, but only by the Chosen One. And who might be this Jedi? Know I do not, but not yet born is he or she. This much, sense I can. A vessel of pure Force the Chosen One will be, more powerful than any Jedi in history."

 

2. Going to start off by saying I likely missed something in #314 because it was long as hell, but that being said I did not see any direct C-cannon, T-cannon, or G-cannon source that said any part of the Sith'ari prophecy was false, without that I cant be swayed no amount of feats will do it as the nature of the Force is largely a mystery so just how much power it takes to do different things is unclear. If I missed that statemtent then I appoligize and please point me to it, if there was no such statement and it was just a list of feats that I saw then I am sorry, but as I said that's not enough for me, and our impass is hit.

Bane regarded Revan as a champion of the dark side; Revan is inferior to Tenebrae in comparison; an important loophole to consider. As I stated before, it is important to focus on canonical developments/ground realities of the lore (on the whole) and not put too much faith on prophecies (on word by word basis) due to their metaphorical nature.

 

Bane compared the "ground realities" of the Brotherhood in his era with those of the ancient Sith who adhered to original Sith ideals (Bane highly praised the ancient Sith); he then regarded the Brotherhood as a decaying Order which should be destroyed and a new one be created as per ancient Sith ideals once again.

Edited July 30, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD