We Need Clarification

[CommanderKeeva]

What BW has been doing lately is trying to push the Cartel Market, where every bit of new content is released as purchasable in the Cartel Market (except Makeb oddly enough) and then tell the Subs, that "Oh it's free to you, because we give you Free CCs"

 

Makeb was a paid expansion or DLC, depending on how you look at it. Since access to it required purchase on the website, there was no need to put it on the CM. Had it not been the case, they would have sold Access Authoriazion for it, like they did with Section X and now they're doing with CZ-198.

[Superman_AZ]

It's come down to new MMO players who don't have the time to play a MMO but want to play it, and those who make time and want it not only as TOR advertised itself as being a year ago, but like MMOs used to be.

I saw this same discussion in the WoW forums. "Bring back Classic/TBC/Wrath cause Cataclysm and Pandaria SUCKS!" People don't care for change. They like things just the way they fell in love with them. Like your first new car. You knew everything about it. You loved everything it had to offer, and even "upgraded" an item or two like rims, or a stereo. Then, after a few years, the paint starts to fade, there are scratches, the AC stops working, etc. So you trade it in. Your new car is nice, but it is just not the same feeling you had with your first new car ever.

 

The same applies to MMOs. I started MMOs with EQ back in 1999. I was just getting out of college full time after serving my 4 years after High School. I loved EQ, and had tons of friends who played. Then WoW came along and I fought it. NOPE! I was NOT switching. And I didn't for 2.5 years until all my friends left EQ and moved to WoW. After almost 7 years of WoW, I dropped it to come here. I imagine I will play this for a year or so until something new comes along.

 

So you are correct. Those who are new to it, want it yesterday, and those who have been here since launch want it back to what it was. Only bad thing is, the bulk of players from launch, are either Free-to-Play (meaning they no longer financially support the game) or they have moved on to something else, or back to WoW. Blaming new players (or returning players) solves nothing. Blaming the marketing and management team for a failing MMO, that is a good start.

[Heezdedjim]

Pay to win means I could give BW $250, and in turn, they would give me a lvl 55 of each advanced class, a lvl 50 legacy, all the cosmetic gear I want, and fill out all my Legacy Perks and Achievements.

Pay to Win means you could give Bioware $250 and they would give you a full set of rank 75 gear, where that set is not only 3 steps above the highest item power available anywhere else in game, but also is fully bind on pickup and only available as a direct purchase through the cash shop. In an actual Pay to Win system, if you pay, you win. If you don't, you are forever alone.

 

Anything else is just trading cash for time, which means you can get the same thing either by paying money to get it right away, OR by spending more time playing the game to get it for "free." Since game time costs you money either directly or in the form of opportunity cost, sales models like the one used for Treek usually make the price more or less the same in terms of how much cash value you need to give up, directly or indirectly, to get the item.

 

If you have a low opportunity cost (unemployed basement dweller), then the cash shop option works out to a modest cash premium over the cost of buying the item with game time, and that premium is the price you pay for instant gratification. If you have a high opportunity cost (gainfully employed adult professional working for more than the minimum wage), then the cash shop option is probably cheaper to you in terms of actual cash spent + foregone earnings.

 

In games where actual Pay to Win is the gearing model, the price for endgame gear commonly comes in around an order of magnitude higher than you're talking about here, so a proper "endgame" toon will set you back the price of a crappy used car. In those games you literally compete with other players based on the size of your wallet; either you can meet the buyin price for a given level of performance or you can't, and how much time you have to devote to playing the game has no effect on the gearing level you can attain.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Heezdedjim

[ImperialSun]

There's a few sayings...

 

"Give them an inch and they'll take a mile."

 

"Give them an inch and they'll walk all over you."

 

What BW has been doing lately is trying to push the Cartel Market, where every bit of new content is released as purchasable in the Cartel Market (except Makeb oddly enough) and then tell the Subs, that "Oh it's free to you, because we give you Free CCs"

 

Problem with that, is they don't give enough Free CCs with the amount of things they're churning out in the CM. And then people use the "Well just wait and save the coins up!" nevermind the fact that while a sub could do that, they'll likely be saving up for quite awhile and waiting months to experience something others around you are doing right now, because hey, they paid extra ontop of everything else...yeah.

 

It's come down to new MMO players who don't have the time to play a MMO but want to play it, and those who make time and want it not only as TOR advertised itself as being a year ago, but like MMOs used to be.

 

Thanks for elaborating.

 

There are a couple of things to remember imo...BW as a business is in this to make money as we all know. So the fact that 500 CC for subs is enough to keep you spending but not quite enough to buy what you want all the time is no surprise. Of course they want subs to buy extra CC on top of their stipend...I dont think anyone can fault them on this, all in game cash shops are designed with this type of sales model in mind...this should not be news to anyone at this stage.

 

Secondly, as a business BW need to attract as many customers as possible. This means catering to as many different walks of life as possible and providing a way for as many players as possible to access as much of the games content as possible. No one can fault BW for this approach either imo. Some players can only play at weekends, or perhaps two evenings a week so BW give us options.

 

If you are the kind of old school MMORPG player who values "earning" your stuff via hours played or a good old grind then you have the option to do that. If you are a new, or even an old school MMORPG player who's life circumstances have changed, then you have the option to remove some of the time barriers via a CC purchase.

 

There is no problem with this, options are always good

 

The problem as I see it is the attitudes of the players themselves...the position we seem to be in is that players are saying "Give me the options I want to play the game how I enjoy it" but then in the next breath are saying "However dont afford any other players the same courtesy, remove THEIR options to play how they want, my way is the ONLY way"....

 

As long as we all have the options we want to play the game how we want, why is there a problem, why are we even having this discussion? Like I said it just seems all of the options to keep everyone happy are present, we as players just want to limit options for our peers based on how we each think the game should be played.

 

Play the game your way and dont worry about what the next guy is doing...kind of reminds me of the age old "Why demand a nerf to class x instead of a buff to class Y and Z.....

 

One other point that springs to mind is that this is not the same game that was advertised a year ago....we all know the hows and why....so to say it should be how it was at launch almost a year after the F2P conversion is somewhat disingenuous imo...

 

Driz

Edited July 8, 2013 by ImperialSun

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

What I dont understand is, as you have stated above, companions provide no advantage and this is NOT a P2W scenario...so how is it tip toeing anywhere near the line?

 

Not trying to nitpick but that seems like a contradiction in and of itself??

 

Driz

 

Because you are paying to bypass in-game requirements. In-game requirements that take a good deal of time. It's one thing to buy a pretty dress with money, it's another thing to say oh yeah that thing that takes a really long time, how about I pay you and you just give it to me anyway. I was somewhat upset with the legacy unlocks before being this way and am enraged to see it continue and I'm want to see a line in the sand that CCs cannot be used to bypass in-game requirements (other than credit requirements).

[ImperialSun]

Because you are paying to bypass in-game requirements. In-game requirements that take a good deal of time. It's one thing to buy a pretty dress with money, it's another thing to say oh yeah that thing that takes a really long time, how about I pay you and you just give it to me anyway. I was somewhat upset with the legacy unlocks before being this way and am enraged to see it continue and I'm want to see a line in the sand that CCs cannot be used to bypass in-game requirements (other than credit requirements).

 

But as you stated above, this is not a P2W scenario.

 

So your objection is simply based on your personal preference for a time gate instead of cash gate to said content. Currently both options exist in game for this and you already have the moral high ground as you feel that you have truly earnt your rewards through dedication and time spent playing.

 

Why should someone else be excluded from the games content simply because they have less free time than you?

 

Driz

Edited July 8, 2013 by ImperialSun

[Quraswren]

If you wish to purchase Treek using Cartel Coins there is no Legacy level requirement. The Legacy level requirement is only if you wish to use credits.

 

-eric

 

Given thats BW stance on this.

 

I'd also like to not have to work on reputations anymore, Legacy leveling was bad enough. Level reputations for Gree,, the upcoming Contracts Bounty gear for reputations and hell, any reputation leveling for that matter should be null and void and just have Cartel coins added to their vender.

 

That way gamers can get the gear depending on how they choose to get it. Spend real money or play the game. Whatever they choose.

 

No real reason to level those if you would just put those items on the Cartel market and let us bypass the reputation leveling, just like what you have done for legacy leveling.

 

That would be great thanks. The less people have to play the game and the deeper their wallets are should make all the difference in your decision.

 

I do hope you will make those changes ASAP.

 

I'd love to not have to do the Bounty Contract week event and level it's rep especially if I could just buy what I want off the cartel market.

 

Let the players choose how to get gear. Play the game to get it or just buy the gear through the market.

 

Thank you.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Quraswren

[Heezdedjim]

I'm want to see a line in the sand that CCs cannot be used to bypass in-game requirements (other than credit requirements).

People in hell want ice water.

 

It's not going to happen because more options = fatter top line revenue for Bioware. You can gripe about it all you like, but that doesn't change the fact that Bioware will lose less money from you ragequitting over it than they will gain by giving people with wallets the option to buy what they want when they want it.

 

And in the end you're not going to ragequit anyway, so there really is no cost at all to Bioware for going the way they have gone on this, and will continue to go on similar items in the future.

[dscount]

Yay, more things completely worthless for those of us with legacy 50.

 

I agree! Very disappointed in Bioware on this one. Have some Legacy Level requirement and then piss all over it for Cartel Market care bears.... Thanks BW... thanks a lot.

 

Appreciate any update on when Legacy will actually be worth something again.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

But as you stated above, this is not a P2W scenario.

 

So your objection is simply based on your personal preference for a time gate instead of cash gate to said content. Currently both options exist in game for this and you already have the moral high ground as you feel that you have truly earnt your rewards through dedication and time spent playing.

 

Why should someone else be excluded from the games content simply because they have less free time than you?

 

Driz

 

Then what's to stop an auto level my character to 55 with CC icons. For people who only care about endgame leveling is just a time sync. Where is the line?

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

You can gripe about it all you like

 

You're right I can gripe all I want and I'll continue to, thanks for your permission

 

but that doesn't change the fact that Bioware will lose less money from you ragequitting over it than they will gain by giving people with wallets the option to buy what they want when they want it.

 

And in the end you're not going to ragequit anyway, so there really is no cost at all to Bioware for going the way they have gone on this, and will continue to go on similar items in the future.

 

This is questionable. Short-term absolutely, long term probably not. I have personally spent over $1000 on Cartel Coins. While you're right it's highly unlikely that I would drop my sub and even less so that I would quit playing it's highly likely that I will drop my support of the CM if it continues going this route. It's certainly true that giving the option for people to buy a companion will allow people who aren't going to play long-term to buy the companion. But as what point will those short term people leave the game and never come back? At what point do the people coming just to play the story's once or play for a while and find out the like it dry up. At what point to they need to actually care about the people that truely support this game through subs and CCs on top of that, the people that will be here for years to come.

 

The real issue here is about them again showing they could care less about subscribers and long time players and they prefer the quick buck. The subcriber benifet of 500 CCs () and this announcement just make me feel like a battered housewife who stays with an abusive husband, rather than a valued partner who helps Bioware succeed.

[Superman_AZ]

Then what's to stop an auto level my character to 55 with CC icons. For people who only care about endgame leveling is just a time sync. Where is the line?

Even if I bought a coin tomorrow that would take me right to 55, I would still have to go back to make money, get companions, get gear, and see content. The difference is, at 55, I could do Class only missions and bypass the side stuff, which people do during Double XP weekends anyway. There will never be an option to just get a lvl 55 in 75 gear without lifting a finger. They may be "for-profit", but they are not stupid enough to release something that would give people no reason to log in after 2 weeks. People need to use common sense, rather than hate and fear to fuel discussions.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Superman_AZ

[Superman_AZ]

Even if I bought a coin tomorrow that would take me right to 55, I would still have to go back to make money, get companions, get gear, and see content.

For the record... I would buy 16 of those. Once for each AC.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

Even if I bought a coin tomorrow that would take me right to 55, I would still have to go back to make money, get companions, get gear, and see content. The difference is, at 55, I could do Class only missions and bypass the side stuff, which people do during Double XP weekends anyway. There will never be an option to just get a lvl 55 in 75 gear without lifting a finger. They may be "for-profit", but they are not stupid enough to release something that would give people no reason to log in after 2 weeks. People need to use common sense, rather than hate and fear to fuel discussions.

 

I thought common sense is if there's a requirement you can't just get around that by paying. It's called bribing irl. It's common sense that this is wrong irl, why is it fine here?

Edited July 8, 2013 by Arlon_Nabarlly

[Heezdedjim]

Then what's to stop an auto level my character to 55 with CC icons. For people who only care about endgame leveling is just a time sync. Where is the line?

If they sold such a coin it likely would grant you a level 48 or 50 character, not 55. That is the pattern followed in other games that sell a similar perk. Others games have even offered this for free (in the days before the omnipresent cash shop anyway), letting you create a new toon at 80% of max level once you have leveled one toon to the cap "the old fashioned way."

 

As noted above, you still would have to play through the class story line to get companions, and you still would have to do "the other half" of the grind, which is getting geared up at the level cap.

 

It encourages people who already have at least one max level toon to roll alts by letting them skip 80% of the dead time in the lower level grind. That means more people will spend more time playing, rather than getting bored and leaving. If you sell it as a cash shop perk and price it right, it's a net revenue win for the company both in direct sales and in subscriber retention.

[Heezdedjim]

I thought common sense is if there's a requirement you can't just get around that by paying. It's called bribing irl. It's common sense that this is wrong irl, why is it fine here?

Yeah. I can cut the grass myself, or I can "bribe" the kid down the block to do it for me while I play video games instead. That is so wrong.

[ImperialSun]

Then what's to stop an auto level my character to 55 with CC icons. For people who only care about endgame leveling is just a time sync. Where is the line?

 

Isnt that a bit of a strawman though?

 

When BW announce a CC purchase for auto level 55 I will be the first one to complain, I kind of sit in the middle of this debate, I value the work ethic and this old school way is how I cut my teeth playing SWG for years...nothing wrong with that philosophy if thats your thing however also acknowledge that my preference should not be forced on to everyone. I do generally grind for everything and am only legacy 22. I for example, probably wont take the short cut and get Treek with CC as I have other things I want to spend my stipend on....that doesnt mean I object to anyone else doing so if that fits in with their playstyle and life schedule.

 

I think we both know that auto level 55 toons will never appear in the CM though, right?

 

Driz

[ImperialSun]

You're right I can gripe all I want and I'll continue to, thanks for your permission

 

 

 

This is questionable. Short-term absolutely, long term probably not. I have personally spent over $1000 on Cartel Coins. While you're right it's highly unlikely that I would drop my sub and even less so that I would quit playing it's highly likely that I will drop my support of the CM if it continues going this route. It's certainly true that giving the option for people to buy a companion will allow people who aren't going to play long-term to buy the companion. But as what point will those short term people leave the game and never come back? At what point do the people coming just to play the story's once or play for a while and find out the like it dry up. At what point to they need to actually care about the people that truely support this game through subs and CCs on top of that, the people that will be here for years to come.

 

The real issue here is about them again showing they could care less about subscribers and long time players and they prefer the quick buck. The subcriber benifet of 500 CCs () and this announcement just make me feel like a battered housewife who stays with an abusive husband, rather than a valued partner who helps Bioware succeed.

 

"The real issue here is about them again showing they could care less about subscribers and long time players and they prefer the quick buck."

 

Or....are they showing a commitment to allow as many players to access the game as possible, therefore improving our experience?

 

See one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter

 

Driz

[curtkram]

Even if I bought a coin tomorrow that would take me right to 55, I would still have to go back to make money, ** you can buy this by selling cartel market items on the gtn** get companions, **with the ewok, you will now be able to buy companions on the cartel market** get gear **you can buy this from the cartel market, and get mods off the gtn with the credits you get from selling stuff from the cartel market** , and see content **only part i don't get. what content, if you're game is focused on buying stuff off the gtn? cut scenes? watch them on you tube. i'm with you though, in that i hope bioware releases cutscenes through the cartel market. i don't know why they haven't yet** . The difference is, at 55, I could do Class only missions and bypass the side stuff, which people do during Double XP weekends anyway. There will never be an option to just get a lvl 55 in 75 gear without lifting a finger. They may be "for-profit", but they are not stupid enough to release something that would give people no reason to log in after 2 weeks. People need to use common sense, rather than hate and fear to fuel discussions.

 

i don't see any reason to make assumptions about bioware's stupidity at this point, and i don't see any reason why you would want level 75 gear if you're not actually playing the game (buy your way into higher level ops, without having any actual experience with the class and character you're playing?) . common sense would tell me if you're buying your way past game content, you probably don't know how to play as well as those who took the time to learn how to play their character properly.

[announcerharris]

I don't understand why people are upset about this.

 

1. Treek is not remotely P2W, which has been hashed out well before so I won't do it here.

2. If you want to "earn" Treek by "achieving" legacy 40 and "working for" 1 million credits, by all means. If you choose to do it that way, then someone buying it with CCs does not at all lessen your "achievement."

[ImperialSun]

I don't understand why people are upset about this.

 

1. Treek is not remotely P2W, which has been hashed out well before so I won't do it here.

2. If you want to "earn" Treek by "achieving" legacy 40 and "working for" 1 million credits, by all means. If you choose to do it that way, then someone buying it with CCs does not at all lessen your "achievement."

 

This...^^

 

This is the point I have been trying to make. It seems, however its no longer about the fact that player A's choice does not impact player B. It's about Player B's sense of superiority and the fact that they just dont want Player A to have the option to play the game how they want to.

 

It's about saying give ME the options I want, but that guy over there, don't give him the options he wants...just me...me...ME!!!

 

Like I said it reminds of the "nerf this class" instead of "buff these classes" philosophy...

 

Driz

[announcerharris]

Then what's to stop an auto level my character to 55 with CC icons. For people who only care about endgame leveling is just a time sync. Where is the line?

 

I even question if this is really P2W. It's not as if leveling is at all difficult - merely time consuming. So what if someone wants to drop 5,000 CCs (or whatever) to get a character to 55? If they've never played the game before, they're screwing themselves out of the best leveling experience any MMO has to offer (at least the first time through). If they've already gotten a 55 "the right way," what's wrong with them dropping some extra cash to skip the process again?

[Quraswren]

This...^^

 

This is the point I have been trying to make. It seems, however its no longer about the fact that player A's choice does not impact player B. It's about Player B's sense of superiority and the fact that they just dont want Player A to have the option to play the game how they want to.

 

It's about saying give ME the options I want, but that guy over there, don't give him the options he wants...just me...me...ME!!!

 

Like I said it reminds of the "nerf this class" instead of "buff these classes" philosophy...

 

Driz

 

Exactly.

 

Thats why I say this:

 

Given thats BW stance on this.

 

I'd also like to not have to work on reputations anymore, Legacy leveling was bad enough. Level reputations for Gree,, the upcoming Contracts Bounty gear for reputations and hell, any reputation leveling for that matter should be null and void and just have Cartel coins added to their vender.

 

That way gamers can get the gear depending on how they choose to get it. Spend real money or play the game. Whatever they choose.

 

No real reason to level those if you would just put those items on the Cartel market and let us bypass the reputation leveling, just like what you have done for legacy leveling.

 

That would be great thanks. The less people have to play the game and the deeper their wallets are should make all the difference in your decision.

 

I do hope you will make those changes ASAP.

 

I'd love to not have to do the Bounty Contract week event and level it's rep especially if I could just buy what I want off the cartel market.

 

Let the players choose how to get gear. Play the game to get it or just buy the gear through the market.

 

Let the player choose.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Quraswren

[chuuuuucky]

It is clear we will see eye to eye on at least one of the two major points. I do agree there should be a balance, but tying more items to Legacy requirements may validate play time for long term players, but might discourage the purchase and use of CC in the market. Bioware has always been a for-profit company, and as a business, the smart move is to appeal to a wider audience by making certain fan items available for cash.

 

While i agree with most you say i have a problem with the argument that this game is only here to make money. In fact you hear this quiet often. Of course from Bioware's view this is correct. But that should never be our concern. What Bioware has to provide is a fun game that entertains it's customers and makes them want to play the game for as long as possible. I guess we can agree that for some reason they failed with this approach for alot of players. If it is their fault or the strange behavior and demand of the MMO crowed is not really important for this discussion. Now they depend on a real money system aka. The cartel market in order to keep the game going. Or at least that is what we think because i can't think of on comment that said that the cartel market is necessary in order to keep the game alive.

Now what i wonder is. Do the people feel the need to spend money in order to keep the game alive or do they feel that it is a fun part of the game to spend money in the cartel market?

Because the way alot of people write it, it seems like they only spend money out of the fear that this game will shut down if they don't pay the money.

You often read sentences like „If we do not support this game it will shut down soon so keep buying stuff instead of complaining.„

And i don't know how you think about it but if I hear something like that then something is clearly going wrong.

Now Bioware can be very happy if people feel that way because that means people agree with nearly everything that will cost CC because that way they can stop this game from beeing shut down.

Sadly those people for the most part are the subscribers themselfe.

What i fear is that people loose sence for that line that shouldn't be crossed because of that feeling. You can already see it in this forum that we are heading to a direction where things are supported that would have been impossible to even think of before f2p.

Now for shure we have a new kind of player who has a different demand and playstyle.

But the problem with Treek is that the way he is set up now doesn't affect the f2p crowed but as you say it affects subscribers. Because they are the ones spending most cartel coins. And my honest opinion on this topic is that subscribers should never be forced to fall to the temptation of spending cartel coins but rather should buy them because they want to support the game. Because they see that every penny they spend moves something in the game.

At the moment it is more like you spent the money so the servers are not shut down and this is the wrong approach.

I would spent cartel coins if i knew that this game still tries to be the game it wanted to be. In fact i spent money for the biggest cartel coin pack at release of f2p because i had exactly that feeling that this money is some extra penny they can make the game really awesome. Since then alot has changed not only in the game but also how i feel about the future of the game.

So with that answear i opend up a little more the scope why i think that something like legacy level in the credit option is wrong and is something we should be against as much as possible even if we think that it is necessary for the survival of this game. Because in fact we don't know if something like this business mechanic is really necessary.

[announcerharris]

Exactly.

 

Thats why I say this:

 

Given thats BW stance on this.

 

I'd also like to not have to work on reputations anymore, Legacy leveling was bad enough. Level reputations for Gree,, the upcoming Contracts Bounty gear for reputations and hell, any reputation leveling for that matter should be null and void and just have Cartel coins added to their vender.

 

That way gamers can get the gear depending on how they choose to get it. Spend real money or play the game. Whatever they choose.

 

No real reason to level those if you would just put those items on the Cartel market and let us bypass the reputation leveling, just like what you have done for legacy leveling.

 

That would be great thanks. The less people have to play the game and the deeper their wallets are should make all the difference in your decision.

 

I do hope you will make those changes ASAP.

 

I'd love to not have to do the Bounty Contract week event and level it's rep especially if I could just buy what I want off the cartel market.

 

Let the players choose how to get gear. Play the game to get it or just buy the gear through the market.

 

Let the player choose.

 

You say this sarcastically but what's wrong with this? If someone wants to drop tons of cash to skip all the content or get certain fluff without playing the game, let them. I can't imagine why someone would get enjoyment out of approaching the game this way, but if they do, who cares?

 

Doesn't hurt you in any way, and all that extra cash goes back into a game which you (presumably) enjoy - making your experience better in the long run (inb4 not if they use that money to make more cartel fluff).