We Need Clarification

[ImperialSun]

Exactly.

 

Thats why I say this:

 

Given thats BW stance on this.

 

I'd also like to not have to work on reputations anymore, Legacy leveling was bad enough. Level reputations for Gree,, the upcoming Contracts Bounty gear for reputations and hell, any reputation leveling for that matter should be null and void and just have Cartel coins added to their vender.

 

That way gamers can get the gear depending on how they choose to get it. Spend real money or play the game. Whatever they choose.

 

No real reason to level those if you would just put those items on the Cartel market and let us bypass the reputation leveling, just like what you have done for legacy leveling.

 

That would be great thanks. The less people have to play the game and the deeper their wallets are should make all the difference in your decision.

 

I do hope you will make those changes ASAP.

 

I'd love to not have to do the Bounty Contract week event and level it's rep especially if I could just buy what I want off the cartel market.

 

Let the players choose how to get gear. Play the game to get it or just buy the gear through the market.

 

Let the player choose.

 

I would not choose to go quite as extreme as all that, but you are right in the sense that to each their own...if someone literally buys their way to end game, they would likely suck at that class role and as someone else said, they would only be cheating themsevles out of a superlative levelling experience....but that is their choice.

 

You kind of can P2Rep now....you get loads of rep tokens in the cartel packs

 

Driz

[curtkram]

I don't understand why people are upset about this.

 

1. Treek is not remotely P2W, which has been hashed out well before so I won't do it here.

2. If you want to "earn" Treek by "achieving" legacy 40 and "working for" 1 million credits, by all means. If you choose to do it that way, then someone buying it with CCs does not at all lessen your "achievement."

 

so let's say i were to explain something to you, and make it as simple and clear as i can. let's say my point of view, which is different than yours, is repeated by a whole lot of people on a bunch of different threads from a bunch of unique perspectives in a lot of different ways.

 

where is the problem there? is it dumb of me to try to explain something to you that you don't understand? or is there a problem on your end? perhaps the problem hasn't been simplified enough? maybe it hasn't been repeated often enough, and there should be a few more threads? maybe you just don't want to understand? do you have a habit of refusing to acknowledge people who might have a different opinion? is it a fear of learning about the world outside your safe little bubble?

 

i don't understand how it could still be hard to understand.

[ImperialSun]

so let's say i were to explain something to you, and make it as simple and clear as i can. let's say my point of view, which is different than yours, is repeated by a whole lot of people on a bunch of different threads from a bunch of unique perspectives in a lot of different ways.

 

where is the problem there? is it dumb of me to try to explain something to you that you don't understand? or is there a problem on your end? perhaps the problem hasn't been simplified enough? maybe it hasn't been repeated often enough, and there should be a few more threads? maybe you just don't want to understand? do you have a habit of refusing to acknowledge people who might have a different opinion? is it a fear of learning about the world outside your safe little bubble?

 

i don't understand how it could still be hard to understand.

 

But the posters point of view, which is different than yours, is repeated by a whole lot of people on a bunch of different threads from a bunch of unique perspectives in a lot of different ways.

 

So your opinion is no more or less right than his. It's an opinion. If you cant understand this would it be dumb of me to explain in even more simple terms?

 

Driz

[ImperialSun]

so let's say i were to explain something to you, and make it as simple and clear as i can. let's say my point of view, which is different than yours, is repeated by a whole lot of people on a bunch of different threads from a bunch of unique perspectives in a lot of different ways.

 

where is the problem there? is it dumb of me to try to explain something to you that you don't understand? or is there a problem on your end? perhaps the problem hasn't been simplified enough? maybe it hasn't been repeated often enough, and there should be a few more threads? maybe you just don't want to understand? do you have a habit of refusing to acknowledge people who might have a different opinion? is it a fear of learning about the world outside your safe little bubble?

 

i don't understand how it could still be hard to understand.

 

The options to keep everyone happy are already present. It just so happens that the players who support your opinion are not satisified with everyone getting what they want. You guys simply want to get what you want whilst at the same time, penalising and taking away the options of the other crowd....

 

Imagine if you won the lottery and went to purchase a sports car, only to be told sorry sonny, you have not held your driving licence long enough....you have not put the time in, you have not earnt the right to drive this car so you come back when you have held a drivig licence for 30 years instead of 2....

 

Driz

[curtkram]

But the posters point of view, which is different than yours, is repeated by a whole lot of people on a bunch of different threads from a bunch of unique perspectives in a lot of different ways.

 

So your opinion is no more or less right than his. It's an opinion. If you cant understand this would it be dumb of me to explain in even more simple terms?

 

Driz

 

i'm not saying i don't understand his perspective. i read the other comments, i read your comments, and i understand what you're saying. you don't have to repeat your position for my sake, since i've already read it and acknowledge it, and i'm not asking for a clarification.

 

if the person i responded to was saying they don't understand because they are trying to understand, it's probably important at this point to find out what is preventing him from understanding. it certainly isn't because multiple different views have been clearly explained.

 

i'm not even disagreeing with them, though i do think the game as a whole as well as my part in the game will suffer greatly if the developers tailor it towards buying your way out of content. if they want further explanation, since they specifically said they don't understand, i would be happy to oblige. i'm just not sure how to respond, since we've been over it several times already.

[announcerharris]

so let's say i were to explain something to you, and make it as simple and clear as i can. let's say my point of view, which is different than yours, is repeated by a whole lot of people on a bunch of different threads from a bunch of unique perspectives in a lot of different ways.

 

where is the problem there? is it dumb of me to try to explain something to you that you don't understand? or is there a problem on your end? perhaps the problem hasn't been simplified enough? maybe it hasn't been repeated often enough, and there should be a few more threads? maybe you just don't want to understand? do you have a habit of refusing to acknowledge people who might have a different opinion? is it a fear of learning about the world outside your safe little bubble?

 

i don't understand how it could still be hard to understand.

 

I don't understand how you don't understand how it could still be hard to understand.

 

Seriously though - you value "earning" stuff in this game. So do I. So I play the game, enjoy myself, get my shinies.

 

Some people do not value the process of getting the stuff, they simply want the stuff. So they pay real money (which in all likelihood is something that was truly earned, as opposed to "earned" in the video game sense) to enjoy the game the way they want. Their spending does not give them any sort of advantage of you whatsoever, and does not lessen your enjoyment of playing the game in order to get the stuff you want.

 

I'll put it another way. Imagine two roommates who split the responsibility for making dinner. On every night, they both want to eat some delicious food. One of the roommates really enjoys cooking, so on his nights, he puts a great deal of time and effort into preparing meals. The other roommate dislikes cooking, so he buys takeout from gourmet restaurants around town.

 

No matter what, each person is getting what they want in the way they want to get it, and everybody gets to eat delicious food. The roommate who enjoys cooking continues to get his enjoyment from cooking, even though the roommate takes the easy way out and gets takeout. The roommate who dislikes cooking avoids doing something he doesn't want to do, but still gets what he wants. Complaining about some people buying Treek with CC is like the cooking roommate complaining that the other one buys him delicious food and doesn't prepare it himself.

 

EDIT: Curtkram, this took me a minute to write, but I just read your other replies. Hopefully the cooking analogy conveys why I don't get it. Feel free to blow holes in that analogy too.

Edited July 8, 2013 by announcerharris

[Superman_AZ]

While i agree with most you say i have a problem with the argument that this game is only here to make money. In fact you hear this quiet often. Of course from Bioware's view this is correct. But that should never be our concern. What Bioware has to provide is a fun game that entertains it's customers and makes them want to play the game for as long as possible. I guess we can agree that for some reason they failed with this approach for alot of players. If it is their fault or the strange behavior and demand of the MMO crowed is not really important for this discussion. Now they depend on a real money system aka. The cartel market in order to keep the game going. Or at least that is what we think because i can't think of on comment that said that the cartel market is necessary in order to keep the game alive.

 

Now what i wonder is. Do the people feel the need to spend money in order to keep the game alive or do they feel that it is a fun part of the game to spend money in the cartel market? Because the way alot of people write it, it seems like they only spend money out of the fear that this game will shut down if they don't pay the money.

You often read sentences like „If we do not support this game it will shut down soon so keep buying stuff instead of complaining.„

 

And i don't know how you think about it but if I hear something like that then something is clearly going wrong.

Now Bioware can be very happy if people feel that way because that means people agree with nearly everything that will cost CC because that way they can stop this game from beeing shut down.

Sadly those people for the most part are the subscribers themselfe.

 

What i fear is that people loose sence for that line that shouldn't be crossed because of that feeling. You can already see it in this forum that we are heading to a direction where things are supported that would have been impossible to even think of before f2p. Now for shure we have a new kind of player who has a different demand and playstyle.

 

But the problem with Treek is that the way he is set up now doesn't affect the f2p crowed but as you say it affects subscribers. Because they are the ones spending most cartel coins. And my honest opinion on this topic is that subscribers should never be forced to fall to the temptation of spending cartel coins but rather should buy them because they want to support the game. Because they see that every penny they spend moves something in the game.

 

At the moment it is more like you spent the money so the servers are not shut down and this is the wrong approach. I would spent cartel coins if i knew that this game still tries to be the game it wanted to be. In fact i spent money for the biggest cartel coin pack at release of f2p because i had exactly that feeling that this money is some extra penny they can make the game really awesome. Since then alot has changed not only in the game but also how i feel about the future of the game.

 

So with that answear i opend up a little more the scope why i think that something like legacy level in the credit option is wrong and is something we should be against as much as possible even if we think that it is necessary for the survival of this game. Because in fact we don't know if something like this business mechanic is really necessary.

Ultimately, the CM is nothing more than fun stuff, and an easy way to make creds at the GTN. There is no way to use the CM to pay-to-win this game as some have suggested. In order to "win" at an MMO like this, you would need 16 lvl 55 characters, in full gear, with all missions completed, all achievements unlocked, and wearing BiS gear on each. The CM does NOT provide this service.

 

I find the CM to be pure fun. I spent $245 last month on frivilous stuff and some unlocks. I also pay for a sub. Bioware is going to turn a profit, no matter how they have to go about it. I am not standing outside of their office with a checkbook saying, "Put more in the CM or I quit!" I am just playing by the rules. Most players who are against the CM fail to see that content and fluff stuff comes from profit. As of now, there are more free players than there are subs. So, 1/5th (approx) of the player base actually pays to play monthly with a sub. I would guess at least half of all players spend money in the CM and get just enough to get by.

 

If players want to affect a change in the game, they need to encourage people to Sub. The only way players will Sub is to restrict content / CM items to free players. The way BW SHOULD have done it is like this:

 

1. Sub only, no Free-to-Play

2. Implement the Cartel Market using creds and not CCs

3. Only add cosmetic items to the CM

4. Make Legacy Perks unlock with Legacy levels only, no creds

 

This would give players the fun of the Cartel Market, the benefits of a subscription, and the incentive to level Legacies to gain new benefits which would be ACCOUNT WIDE and not just Character / Server specific. But, hindsight is 20/20 and we are far beyond the point of No Return. Now people just need to decide if this is an MMO model they are willing to work with and hope to affect certain QoL changes, or if it is time to find another MMO.

 

Edited July 8, 2013 by Superman_AZ

[curtkram]

I don't understand how you don't understand how it could still be hard to understand.

 

there are in-game mechanics, rulesets, resources, and anything else you can imaging that exist entirely within the in-game environment.

 

there are out-of game resources. this is stuff like your money, your job, your house, your dog, etc.

 

when you log in to play this game, the game should be as limited to in-game as possible, because you're logging into a game; you are not logging in to real life. introducing out-of-game resources into the in-game environment breaks the game. it break immersion, because you're seeing out-of-game influence instead if game-world influence, and it breaks the goals of the game, because they can bypassed through out-of-game means. perhaps it is necessary to allow a little bit in, but it should be limited as much as possible. along with that, in an MMO, there are a bunch of different people who have an influence on the in-game environment. this is not a single player game. to suggest other people's actions and decisions don't influence the in-game environment for me and everyone else in-game neglects that fact.

 

if i have an ewok standing next to me, i can say gee look, there is an ewok and it took a lot of time logged into the game to acquire. then i see another ewok, and lo and behold it no longer takes in-game resources or in-game time to achieve the same result. now out-of-game resources are introduce to the in-game environment. that devalues the ewok. not only does the introduction of out-of-game resources devalue the ewok, it devalues everything in the game. as a general rule, which applies to the ewok as well as everything else in the context of a video game, keep in-game in-game and out-of-game out-of-game. want real life money? go to work. want in game money? quit your job and play more. it's not right to bypass one by doing the other.

 

i don't have as much time to play as a lot of people, because i'm at work and can't log in. i'm not as good at playing my class as some other people. i don't have the credits or titles or such they have. but seriously, i'm not going to envy them and feel like i need a special break to get what they've acquired because i have a job. the fact is, i'm pretty sure i'm in a better position overall than them.

 

if you have fun buying crap off the cartel market, then good for you. the system you're advocating is to buy the stuff i earn in the same game i earned it in. if they want to make a game that appeals to both of us, they can separate them. you get one set of stuff to buy, i get a different set of stuff to earn. or create a separate cartel market server, so you can buy crap without it having an influence on my game.

Edited July 8, 2013 by curtkram

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

Yeah. I can cut the grass myself, or I can "bribe" the kid down the block to do it for me while I play video games instead. That is so wrong.

 

That's different. You are paying someone to do the work, not to bypass the work. Your example would be if I paid someone to play my account to get legacy level 40.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

 

I think we both know that auto level 55 toons will never appear in the CM though, right?

 

No I don't. That's why I'm pushing against them as the push closer and closer to this.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

"The real issue here is about them again showing they could care less about subscribers and long time players and they prefer the quick buck."

 

Or....are they showing a commitment to allow as many players to access the game as possible, therefore improving our experience?

 

See one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter

 

Driz

 

That all depends on who wins the war and get's to write the history books. Hence why I have to fight now before the remaining loyal crowd gets fed up of this crap and moves on this game goes the way of SWG.

[announcerharris]

That's different. You are paying someone to do the work, not to bypass the work. Your example would be if I paid someone to play my account to get legacy level 40.

 

Not really - the effect on the buyer in both cases is that they get to use their money to bypass something they don't want to do. You could just say that buying Treek is just paying Bioware to do the "work" for you.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

Not really - the effect on the buyer in both cases is that they get to use their money to bypass something they don't want to do. You could just say that buying Treek is just paying Bioware to do the "work" for you.

 

No you couldn't because you aren't get legacy level 40 unlocked. Because you are getting the companion without the requirement you are side-stepping the requirement, therefore it is a bribe not a service.

[curtkram]

Not really - the effect on the buyer in both cases is that they get to use their money to bypass something they don't want to do. You could just say that buying Treek is just paying Bioware to do the "work" for you.

 

also, bioware isn't doing any "work." they're just magicking new resources into existence in the game.

 

my ewok was earned through time in-game, within the in-game rulesets. your ewok has nothing to do with the game. it was dumped into the game world. they are different. in-game, yours is a cheap knock-off. out-of-game, yours is a credit card charge and mine doesn't exist.

[announcerharris]

if i have an ewok standing next to me, i can say gee look, there is an ewok and it took a lot of time logged into the game to acquire. then i see another ewok, and lo and behold it no longer takes in-game resources or in-game time to achieve the same result. now out-of-game resources are introduce to the in-game environment. that devalues the ewok. not only does the introduction of out-of-game resources devalue the ewok, it devalues everything in the game.

 

This seems to be where the crowds differ. Some feel this devaluation and want unique stuff, while others (myself included) don't. Neither view is right or wrong.

 

as a general rule, which applies to the ewok as well as everything else in the context of a video game, keep in-game in-game and out-of-game out-of-game. want real life money? go to work. want in game money? quit your job and play more. it's not right to bypass one by doing the other.

 

Why not? The devaluation thing again?

 

if you have fun buying crap off the cartel market, then good for you. the system you're advocating is to buy the stuff i earn in the same game i earned it in. if they want to make a game that appeals to both of us, they can separate them. you get one set of stuff to buy, i get a different set of stuff to earn. or create a separate cartel market server, so you can buy crap without it having an influence on my game.

 

I said pretty clearly that I, like you, don't get why there is so much appeal to this. However, just because I don't get it doesn't mean it isn't real - just like how neither of us understanding the other's position at first didn't make the position any less valid.

 

You correctly pointed out above that this is an MMO, not a single player game, and that one player's actions affect others. Isn't it contradictory to then call for separate servers? Isn't segregating players based on how they choose to acquire in-game fluff at least as bad as any devaluation that you perceive?

[announcerharris]

also, bioware isn't doing any "work." they're just magicking new resources into existence in the game.

 

my ewok was earned through time in-game, within the in-game rulesets. your ewok has nothing to do with the game. it was dumped into the game world. they are different. in-game, yours is a cheap knock-off. out-of-game, yours is a credit card charge and mine doesn't exist.

 

So if you could have a special outfit or fur color for your "earned" Ewok, would you be satisfied?

 

PS Curtkram: these questions come from me genuinely trying to understand yours and others points of view, not to try and put them down. Thanks for being a good sport.

[curtkram]

This seems to be where the crowds differ. Some feel this devaluation and want unique stuff, while others (myself included) don't. Neither view is right or wrong.

 

i don't think it's about unique stuff, so much as keep in-game in-game and out-of-game out-of-game. if there happens to be something unique, it should reflect that. you are free to not agree.

 

Why not? The devaluation thing again?

 

yes

 

I said pretty clearly that I, like you, don't get why there is so much appeal to this. However, just because I don't get it doesn't mean it isn't real - just like how neither of us understanding the other's position at first didn't make the position any less valid.

 

You correctly pointed out above that this is an MMO, not a single player game, and that one player's actions affect others. Isn't it contradictory to then call for separate servers? Isn't segregating players based on how they choose to acquire in-game fluff at least as bad as any devaluation that you perceive?

 

no, separate servers isn't contradictory. if your actions are going to keep negatively affecting my environment, i think it would be better for you to be in a different environment. there are separate pvp and pve servers, and there were separate rp servers. in my opinion, screwing up the in-game environment by filling it with out-of-game resources is far more significant than a pvp flag, especially when most planets are pretty empty. i played on fatman when it was the only populated server (i bring that up because it's my only experience with a different server type), and the downside from ganking was very limited. i can't speak to the rp people, but it sounds like they're screwed no matter what and just aren't going to get the environment they want (based on something at some point that said they tend to get griefed).

 

So if you could have a special outfit or fur color for your "earned" Ewok, would you be satisfied?

 

PS Curtkram: these questions come from me genuinely trying to understand yours and others points of view, not to try and put them down. Thanks for being a good sport.

 

i don't know, i can't really even imagine an environment where bioware makes decisions that satisfy me anymore. i suppose i'll be satisfied when all my characters are on a single server without me having to pay extra and the cartel market is only cosmetic, without trying to constantly push as close to p2w as they can before the forums start looking like they now look. also, they should include actual content with every 8 week update. it's the direction of the game and the attitude of the developers that should change, not just one ewok.

 

if you've been following all these threads, it's been posted by a lot of people that a unique ewok skin would be acceptable. i think that should generally be considered a reasonable compromise.

[Superman_AZ]

So if you could have a special outfit or fur color for your "earned" Ewok, would you be satisfied?

 

PS Curtkram: these questions come from me genuinely trying to understand yours and others points of view, not to try and put them down. Thanks for being a good sport.

That's not a bad notion. Allowing a Legacy perk to unlock a new Treek appearance. Then it would be easy to spot the Legacy Ewoks from their appearance change.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

What would make me happy is one or the other:

A. Force people who buy with CC to have Legacy 40.

B. Removee the restriction for Legacy 40 to people buying with Credits.

 

It's not a requirement if you can pay to get around it, it's a slap in the face. Either make it a requirement or make it not one, I honestly don't care which.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Arlon_Nabarlly

[Superman_AZ]

What would make me happy is one or the other:

A. Force people who buy with CC to have Legacy 40.

B. Removee the restriction for Legacy 40 to people buying with Credits.

 

It's not a requirement if you can pay to get around it, it's a slap in the face. Either make it a requirement or make it not one, I honestly don't care which.

I think they should split the difference. If you are under LL40, you can purchase with CC, if you are over LL40 you get it for FREE. Then, the Legacy has meaning, and those without the Legacy have an option as well. This way, Over LL40 pays absolutely NOTHING (no creds, and no CCs), and under LL40 are forced to used CCs. I think that would be fair all the way around. Then people who want to pay, can, and those who want to "earn" it can. Choices. It is all about choices and solutions.

[Heezdedjim]

my ewok was earned through time in-game, within the in-game rulesets. your ewok has nothing to do with the game. it was dumped into the game world. they are different. in-game, yours is a cheap knock-off. out-of-game, yours is a credit card charge and mine doesn't exist.

It's always fun watching someone whose only job is playing a video game rant about "earning stuff."

 

I earn stuff too. Like when I go to work. And earn money. Money that I use to buy stuff. Stuff like imaginary Ewoks made of electrons.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Heezdedjim

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

I think they should split the difference. If you are under LL40, you can purchase with CC, if you are over LL40 you get it for FREE. Then, the Legacy has meaning, and those without the Legacy have an option as well. This way, Over LL40 pays absolutely NOTHING (no creds, and no CCs), and under LL40 are forced to used CCs. I think that would be fair all the way around. Then people who want to pay, can, and those who want to "earn" it can. Choices. It is all about choices and solutions.

 

I could get behind that, but it won't happen. The only reason they put the legacy level 40 requirement on credits has nothing to do with rewarding legacy level 40 people. Here's how the conversation went. (Discliamer: The following is a fictional encounter with fictional people)

 

We want to put the new companion in the game and make it only CCs

No it can't be ONLY CCs there would be no end to the outrage.

We could make it 1 million credits.

Well that's nothing, then no one would spend CCs.

What if we made it a really high legacy level and a million credits and a million.

Even better make that million be per character.

Yeah then 90% or higher of the purchases will be with real money for it AND we can say that we put the requirement in as a reward.

Good meeting.

[Superman_AZ]

I could get behind that, but it won't happen. The only reason they put the legacy level 40 requirement on credits has nothing to do with rewarding legacy level 40 people. Here's how the conversation went. (Discliamer: The following is a fictional encounter with fictional people)

 

We want to put the new companion in the game and make it only CCs

No it can't be ONLY CCs there would be no end to the outrage.

We could make it 1 million credits.

Well that's nothing, then no one would spend CCs.

What if we made it a really high legacy level and a million credits and a million.

Even better make that million be per character.

Yeah then 90% or higher of the purchases will be with real money for it AND we can say that we put the requirement in as a reward.

Good meeting.

I would imagine the words "credit sink" were tossed in there somewhere too.

[curtkram]

It's always fun watching someone whose only job is playing a video game rant about "earning stuff."

 

I earn stuff too. Like when I go to work. And earn money. Money that I use to buy stuff. Stuff like imaginary Ewoks made of electrons.

 

your statement about my 'only job' is factually inaccurate.

 

you come across as someone that is actually too lazy to play a game. that's pretty bad. i could understand if you're too lazy to do your job, mow the lawn, do the dishes, or something like that, but too lazy to play a game so you have buy your way out of it. you must not like the game very much if you have to spend your 'hard earned' money to get around playing it anyway. i mean, if it was a half way decent game you would probably be defending the people that think it should be played instead of bypassed, right? as it is, it kind of sounds like you would rather go to work instead of playing a game. not a high standard for a game.

[Lyshar]

if you've been following all these threads, it's been posted by a lot of people that a unique ewok skin would be acceptable. i think that should generally be considered a reasonable compromise.

 

What I think would also be acceptable is if both get their own unique skin. That was coin payers shouldn't need to worry about not getting one, but if they don't like theirs they can go earn one for the next character. As can earners buy the next one off the cartel list.

 

Those that would be ashamed of their way of purchase can just not equip the customization, as can those that just don't like it.

 

If they want to add placeholder skins for the time being until they patch them into real ones, I'd be alright with that. At least we'd get customizations then depending on the way of acquisition. To some a Cartel acquisition is worthless, it'll make the earned acquisition feel less worth too. Others may think people that spend a million credits on it are the fools, so both getting a unique customization can only be beneficial.