Why is love considered taboo for the Jedi?

[Bytemite]

There are some exceptions for the jedi. If I am remembering right one of the members of the Jedi Council during the clone wars is actually married with multiple wives, because of the huge disproportion in the male to female ratio in his species.

 

Yep. Master Ki-Adi-Mundi. Also interesting in that when he was first seated on the Council, he wasn't a Master yet. Also interesting in that his entire family was killed at one point in the Clone Wars, but he committed himself more strongly to the Jedi Order. Basically a mirror contrast to Anakin.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Bytemite

[Ayradyss]

Well bigger reason why, is because they don't teach jedi on how to deal with emotions. How to separate the good from the bad. So the easy solution is to not to do it. The problem with love is that while it can redeem and bring you back, it can lead you TO the darkside. When love is corrupted and turned into lust, rage and all things dark, it can take you to dangerous places.

 

But that same love can redeem, promote sacrifice, the goodness in people.

 

My 2 credits, the jedi seriously should of taught HOW to deal with emotions instead of just don't feel it.

 

This is very much in tune with my own feelings on the subject. IMO, there are a lot of books/works with the 'Star Wars' logo on them that are of less than stellar quality. I certainly count Lucas's prequels among those, though I've always loved the original trilogy. There are cases of the Jedi swinging back and forth -- love/romance is allowed, is NOT allowed.

 

But if it comes to what the Jedi -should- teach and allow, then my opinion is that the flat-out 'prohibition' of romantic involvement that some ascribe to the Jedi is very wrong. As you said, the Jedi need to learn how to deal with their emotions, how to cope with pain and not be overcome by it. The way we actually learn this sort of thing is by experiencing it. It's pain and working through it that allows us to grow stronger and develop the strength of character to deal with it, without going off the deep end.

 

What the Jedi need to do is to let their padawans experience these things -- but to be there to guide and support, to lend strength when the padawan might otherwise falter if left isolated on his/her own. The doctrine of forbiddance, as shown in the prequels, merely isolated Anakin, as he felt he could not reveal his feelings to his elders, and led him to face his emotions alone, and completely unprepared.

[TalonVII]

/snip

The doctrine of forbiddance, as shown in the prequels, merely isolated Anakin, as he felt he could not reveal his feelings to his elders, and led him to face his emotions alone, and completely unprepared.

 

Hence one of the major factors why he fell. And in the books why Luke Skywalker removed that prohibition. Though he for all the good he did and all the jedi he helped train, still have not done a good job of dealing with the fall out from emotions.

 

Honestly and I am sure Auebere will disagree the Jedi code needs a face lift and needs to include "to master the force, one must master himself".

[SithKoriandr]

Hence one of the major factors why he fell. And in the books why Luke Skywalker removed that prohibition. Though he for all the good he did and all the jedi he helped train, still have not done a good job of dealing with the fall out from emotions.

 

Honestly and I am sure Auebere will disagree the Jedi code needs a face lift and needs to include "to master the force, one must master himself".

 

It goes back to being all about the power. When they're thinking rationally, they know, don't use your force abilities to do this or that. Once they get overwhelmed and anger/irrationality kicks in, they lose all sense of common sense and start going "I have the power to do anything I please, to whoever I please, and all who stand in my way will suffer."

 

Of course, some more than others. Giving into revenge may keep the dark side focused on one person, but it becomes a downward spiral...I was willing to do this, what's a few more?

[AlexDougherty]

Yep. Master Ki-Adi-Mundi. Also interesting in that when he was first seated on the Council, he wasn't a Master yet. Also interesting in that his entire family was killed at one point in the Clone Wars, but he committed himself more strongly to the Jedi Order. Basically a mirror contrast to Anakin.

 

He wasn't a master when he sat on the council, hmm, then why does Anakin say that membersof the council are always masters, and that it's been that way for at least a couple of hundred years (can't rember exact words) in ROTS?. Did the scriptwriter/Lucas forget? God bless continuity errors, because sometimes it feels that Star Wars is nothing but continuity errors.

[Euphrosyne]

He wasn't a master when he sat on the council, hmm, then why does Anakin say that membersof the council are always masters, and that it's been that way for at least a couple of hundred years (can't rember exact words) in ROTS?. Did the scriptwriter/Lucas forget? God bless continuity errors, because sometimes it feels that Star Wars is nothing but continuity errors.

What Anakin did was ask, rhetorically and angrily, how anybody could be on the Council and not be a Master. He was not making an unequivocal statement, and he is furthermore hardly a reliable and knowledgeable source on the subject. There is no continuity error.

[Philmors]

the idea is that jedi need to be impartial. love means that there's a person (or people) that they will always value above everyone else, and that can adversely affect their decisions, up to and including saving the one they love, over multiple strangers. jedi is supposed to always chose the greater good, not personal happiness.

 

so.

 

love is forbidden.

 

the problem is - forbidding emotion doesn't teach people how to deal with it. Anakin was an extreme example, but "forbidden apple is always sweeter" is such a well known well used saying for a reason. forbidding something doesn't render people incapable of wanting it or feeling it. it just makes it harder on everyone.

 

That's pretty much it exactly. The jedi forbidding love was pretty much the easy way out for the jedi order instead of teaching their students on how to handle their emotions. This does leave the Jedi quite susceptible to being turned to the dark side eventually because some of them just haven't been trained to deal handle their emotions.

 

That's what caused the Jedi Order to fall because of Anakin. Don't get me wrong, Anakin's fall to the darkside wasn't all of the Jedi Order's fault but they do share a major part of the blame.

[Aeneas_Falco]

I can understand why the Jedi prohibit attachments, even if I think they are overreacting a bit.

 

All force users are extremely dangerous. They are a danger both to themselves and to other people, and the Jedi seek to limit the danger posed by their abilities while simulataneously harnessing those abilities to protect others, primarily from other force-users like the Sith who revel in the power that those abilities grant.

 

Love has many positive aspects that would be in tune with the light side such as selflessness or devotion. But it can also have potentially negative aspects that would be in tune with the dark side, such as jealousy or obsession. When the Jedi prohibited attachments I don't think it was love they were concerned about, but rather the potentially negative 'children' of it like jealousy or obsession.

 

The Sith appear to also frown on attachments, but for the opposite reasons. The positive aspects of love like selfless or devotion would be seen as a weakness to a Sith, and something that your enemies could exploit.

[AlexDougherty]

I can understand why the Jedi prohibit attachments, even if I think they are overreacting a bit.

 

No they aren't, when you are attached to someone you are vulnerable to emotion (if they are hurt or killed for example), and when you are a force user vulnerable to emotion means vulnerable to the darkside.

 

A Jedi can have emotions but he/she must be in command of them, when you are attached you are not in control.

 

Thus a Jedi can be in love, but can't afford to be attached. In this context attachment is at least partially defining yourself in terms of the other person (or at least the reationship), for a force user this is never healthy.

[TalonVII]

No they aren't, when you are attached to someone you are vulnerable to emotion (if they are hurt or killed for example), and when you are a force user vulnerable to emotion means vulnerable to the darkside.

 

A Jedi can have emotions but he/she must be in command of them, when you are attached you are not in control.

 

Thus a Jedi can be in love, but can't afford to be attached. In this context attachment is at least partially defining yourself in terms of the other person (or at least the reationship), for a force user this is never healthy.

 

But it's also not healthy if you think about it, to simply shut a person off from a part of themselves. Yes monks and priests do so, but they do so of their own free will.

 

Jedi don't get to choose. If you are force sensitive you are simply taken in by the Sith or Jedi and FORCED to live that way, you are never given a choice.

[AlexDougherty]

But it's also not healthy if you think about it, to simply shut a person off from a part of themselves. Yes monks and priests do so, but they do so of their own free will.

 

Jedi don't get to choose. If you are force sensitive you are simply taken in by the Sith or Jedi and FORCED to live that way, you are never given a choice.

 

Never thought about it in those terms, I see where you're coming from, I always visualised it as loving for the moment, being prepared to go your seperate ways, while loving the other for who they are. This makes it hard to take responsibilty for your actions, and to actually love rather than just lust after someone, but not impossible.

 

But seeing it as locking apart of yourself away is also a legitimate view, and it would be unhealhy too. Hmm, I will have to consider this some more.

[Euphrosyne]

But it's also not healthy if you think about it, to simply shut a person off from a part of themselves. Yes monks and priests do so, but they do so of their own free will.

 

Jedi don't get to choose. If you are force sensitive you are simply taken in by the Sith or Jedi and FORCED to live that way, you are never given a choice.

That's not true at all. Plenty of people have left the Jedi Order throughout history; others have either chosen to not be trained, or their parents have prevented the Order from training them. Cases of virtual kidnap were very much frowned upon and caused major uproars on the rare occasions when they happened (e.g. Master C'baoth's effort to train a new cadre of Jedi on board Outbound Flight, or the conscription attempts of the Army of Light during the war against Kaan's Brotherhood).

 

If we're going solely with movie evidence, it's pretty much unequivocal. The Council strongly recommended against training Anakin, despite his prodigious Force sensitivity, but only Anakin's own determination to be trained, the advocacy of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and the events of the Battle of Naboo caused them to change their minds. Had Anakin been opposed to the idea of training as a Jedi, the whole plot of Episode I would've been a non-issue. And that's the only time in the movies where somebody might conceivably have been shown to be taken by the Jedi Order to be trained against their will.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Euphrosyne

[RocketeerRaccoon]

But it's also not healthy if you think about it, to simply shut a person off from a part of themselves. Yes monks and priests do so, but they do so of their own free will.

 

Jedi don't get to choose. If you are force sensitive you are simply taken in by the Sith or Jedi and FORCED to live that way, you are never given a choice.

 

That sucks if your a Force User, for Jedi they think can lead to the dark side and even for the Sith they frown upon it as it's a sign of weakness. Sounds like non force users have it all good anyway.

Edited July 9, 2013 by RocketeerRaccoon

[TalonVII]

That's not true at all. Plenty of people have left the Jedi Order throughout history; others have either chosen to not be trained, or their parents have prevented the Order from training them. Cases of virtual kidnap were very much frowned upon and caused major uproars on the rare occasions when they happened (e.g. Master C'baoth's effort to train a new cadre of Jedi on board Outbound Flight, or the conscription attempts of the Army of Light during the war against Kaan's Brotherhood).

 

If we're going solely with movie evidence, it's pretty much unequivocal. The Council strongly recommended against training Anakin, despite his prodigious Force sensitivity, but only Anakin's own determination to be trained, the advocacy of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and the events of the Battle of Naboo caused them to change their minds. Had Anakin been opposed to the idea of training as a Jedi, the whole plot of Episode I would've been a non-issue. And that's the only time in the movies where somebody might conceivably have been shown to be taken by the Jedi Order to be trained against their will.

 

Yes and no. Yes some come forwards for training but by the time of The Phantom Menance, there are jedi who's sole focus is to find force sensitive children and bring them for training at the Jedi Temple. Some are just plain taken from their parents. Hell there's even a story about Mace Windu and he eventually allows the parents to keep the child, but many times, they are simply taken.

 

Yes it's frowned upon, but many times it's simply done. Plus the parents who give up their children, does the child get a choice? No. They just get handed over and are forced to live the jedi way. Even when they are old enough to make the choice for themselves, they've already been indoctrinated into the Jedi.

 

If you stop to think about it, the old jedi, never really given a choice.

 

In the NJO, Luke merely asks, he doesn't force anybody who doesn't want to be a jedi. Does he want Jedi, sure, but it's the person's choice to do so. Even after training they can leave if they so choose to.

 

As far as anakin, it was simply his age and many times they don't take a child that old because they feel he'd be too far behind.

 

But had he been born on Kuat, Corellia or any Republic planet his mother would of been contacted instantly.

Edited July 10, 2013 by TalonVII

[BradTheImpaler]

Why wouldn't it be?

 

In the RotS novelization, Yoda and Obi-Wan have a conversation in which they both agree: While they have very strong respect for each other, if either one of them were put in a situation where they had to sacrifice the other for the greater good (i.e. saving the galaxy from the Sith), they would do so.

 

Love is a feeling so powerful that it significantly impairs (if not outright destroys) a person's ability to make this kind of sacrifice. This is precisely what led to Anakin willingly dooming the galaxy to Sith rule so he could gain the power to guarantee (or so he thought) that nothing could harm his wife. Well, that and Anakin's own sense of pride (saying he didn't need Obi-Wan's help, but being perfectly willing to dabble in dark side secrets).

 

Jedi do not teach the "repression" of love in the sense of saying "Just ignore it". They teach that it is necessary for Jedi to understand how love impairs rational judgment and places one life above others because of personal attachment. The point is not to ignore your feelings, but to handle them through meditation, counsel with fellow Jedi and rational thought, rather than embrace them in all their potential destructiveness.

 

The Jedi are not to blame for Anakin's fall (even Anakin realized his own failure when it was too late)---with possibly one exception. Obi-Wan knew about Anakin's emotional connection with Padme and his closeness with Palpatine, but just sort of dismissed it until it was too late. Like Anakin, he eventually recognized his own failure.

Edited July 10, 2013 by BradTheImpaler

[Bytemite]

But had he been born on Kuat, Corellia or any Republic planet his mother would of been contacted instantly.

 

Mostly. But Corellia has it's own order, which actually isn't quite so restrictive. Members of the Green Jedi don't ever really leave Corellia, but they're allowed to have friends and family and form attachments.

[Jandi]

Jedi are responsible for too many lives and they are entrusted with making the best possible choice at any given time that benefits the most amount of people. Emotions are the worst enemy of wisdom and logic and being emotionally detached from the problem is the only way to make the best choice possible.

 

There is a reason doctors are prohibited in some cases to treat their family members. Police officers are also prohibited from investigating cases that include their family members, for a reason. Jedi are expected to make choices that affect millions of lives and emotions simply cannot enter into the decision. No matter who you are, if your own children are involved you simply cannot be objective and rational as your entire being screams at you to protect your offspring at all costs, unless you're a psychopath or otherwise mentally ill, which Jedi typically aren't. This is something a Jedi simply cannot have, they have too much responsibility to ever be distracted or compromised in such a way. Even if your wife or child isn't involved, they can be used as leverage to cause immense damage or compromise you to make the wrong decisions.

 

Furthermore, Jedi who wish to leave the order can do so at any time AFTER masters ascertain that they aren't a massive danger to others. No Jedi has ever been forced to stay nor have any been imprisoned unless they've clearly fallen to the dark side. Count Dooku left the order freely, for example. The danger of Dark Jedi is always there, but the order doesn't forbid you to leave if you want to start a family and no longer wish to carry the responsibility of a Jedi.

 

Sure, the order takes children into training away from their parents but they aren't FORCED to stay if at a later date they do not wish to do so, and are free to return to their parent. It's done to protect the parents and anyone else around them. A force sensitive, even an untrained one, can, in anger, seriously hurt or kill someone, like their own parents. They take the children so they understand and can control their own innate power, not to brainwash the kids, but to prevent them from killing others by accident.

 

Here is an example:

If you've read the EU, Horn who was a council member of Luke's order was completely and utterly devastated and unable to act rationally when his kids were put in carbonite and his pain and anguish was in turn shared by the entire council, which nearly destroyed them simply because they couldn't be objective about the situation they were in.

[Aeneas_Falco]

No they aren't, when you are attached to someone you are vulnerable to emotion (if they are hurt or killed for example), and when you are a force user vulnerable to emotion means vulnerable to the darkside.

 

A Jedi can have emotions but he/she must be in command of them, when you are attached you are not in control.

 

Thus a Jedi can be in love, but can't afford to be attached. In this context attachment is at least partially defining yourself in terms of the other person (or at least the reationship), for a force user this is never healthy.

 

The Jedi are overreacting because not all attachments would lead to jealousy or obsession, or bring forth a host of negative emotions that would lead to the dark side. In fact there are plenty of Jedi in the lore who are married or are in relationships, and don't fall to the dark side. It also ignores the many positive aspects of what the Jedi call 'attachments,' like selflessness and devotion.

 

I can understand why the Jedi prohibit attachments, because some of the more selfish and emotional Jedi (like Anakin) would be at risk. But they've banned something across the board due to a small risk posed to a small number of people. Its a bit of an overreaction. Instead of banning attachments, they should teach their padawans how to deal with those relationships and how to avoid falling into the traps that lead to the dark side. Manage it, not ban it.

[Helig]

As someone else said before, Jolee Bindo explains it best...

Yeah, in a following conversations, he also says that he can't forgive himself for being so stupid. He trained his wife in the Force, despite the Council's warnings - she fell to the Dark Side, went to war and killed Jedi. Yay.

 

How many should die for a selfish, immature, hormonal idiot to learn their lesson? One? A dozen? A hundred? Jedi are not normal people. They are monks with what essentially is the power of the universe at their fingertips. They cannot afford to slip up. One fallen Jedi almost always equals death, destruction and suffering of others. They are brought up and conditioned for a hard, selfless life. They are never disillusioned about the path that they walk. This path is not for everyone. If someone wants a "normal" life, they can always put their lightsaber aside, leave the Order and enjoy their time with their friends and loved ones.

[platinumruggo]

The Sith code is:

 

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

Through passion, I gain strength.

Through strength, I gain power.

Through power, I gain victory.

Through victory, my chains are broken.

The Force shall free me.

 

From the looks of the Sith code, Sith actually have more freedom to do what they want because they allow passion, these can range from good passions like love and bad passions like revenge, the latter of which is a common thing with the Sith.

 

 

 

Yeah, that's so true, it would have been better if there was no such thing as these codes, just make it a war between good and evil yet instead it's all grey really. As for me, I'm going to go back being a Sith Sorcerer and be Light aligned.

 

These codes give structure to both the Jedi and Sith philosophies. Without it, it's just another boring story of good vs evil, and as Palpatine said in EP.3, good is a point of view.

[Helig]

These codes give structure to both the Jedi and Sith philosophies. Without it, it's just another boring story of good vs evil, and as Palpatine said in EP.3, good is a point of view.

I agree, the Sith philosophy can be interpreted in a constructive manner, but they rarely do in their ambition.

 

Likewise, Jedi philosophy can easily be misinterpreted (see Outbound Flight).

[Euphrosyne]

The notion of Sith even following a code is awfully silly to me. A philosophy predicated on freedom from the limitations of society or some similar Randian Superman garbage shouldn't have rules to define how that freedom should be obtained.

[Bytemite]

Well, both orders have a whole heaping lot of hypocrisy going on. The Sith believe in the ultimate freedom of the self - which they believe they obtain by stepping on everyone else around them in a social darwinist fashion. Of course the not-so-tiny problem with this is that it means that while a few of them do end up top dogs, ALL of them actually are in chains. The apprentices are slaves to their lords and masters, the lords are slaves to the dark council, the dark council obeys the Emperor, and all of them are pretty much in constant fear of dying or being killed. They all hold each other back from obtaining more power or developing their abilities, because they are in direct, deadly competition with each other.

 

The Sith warrior pretty eloquently points this out when they become Darth Baras' apprentice. They realized that they've not so much broken their chains so much as transferred them to someone else. The same holds true later on as well.

 

I'm not sure there ever was a time when the Sith represented the ultimate free chaotic society they strive for. Even as the Red Sith, they had a highly stratified and cutthroat society.

 

And the JEDI. Whoo boy, the Jedi. While objectively you can make the argument that they're less utterly INSANE than the Sith, as well as generally more productive members of their particular culture/nation, they are also completely obsessed with good and evil and absolutes. They're as guilty as the Sith in perpetuating long intergalactic wars - they're a martial philosophy, after all - and for all that they are actually more life-affirming than the Sith, they also kill people to maintain peace and order. Which is as self-sabotaging and contradicting a peacekeeping method as I've ever seen, and is exactly how you create these long standing philosophy blood feuds like they have with the Sith.

 

We have all this argument about how the Jedi and force sensitives are so dangerous - and they ARE, untrained or if they misuse their innate abilities - but aren't they actually TRAINING themselves in abilities that MAKE them dangerous? It's one thing to learn to stop yourself from accidentally mind controlling everyone around you. It's another thing to learn how to purposefully do it at will. And then they make up all these guidelines about using their dangerous abilities safely instead of just banning those abilities. You can see where I'm going with this.

 

So here we have a bunch of religious philosophy types running around, some more moderate than others. The fanatics and zealots of this order are unbelievably dangerous, and prone to "ends justify the means/for the greater good" thinking styles. They are taught adherence to their philosophy, to the point of harsh judgement against and mistrust of differing philosophies.They are often powerful healers or empaths or have strong enough telekinetic ability that they could level BUILDINGS with just their minds. They deal with far more sensory and emotional input than their species is normally evolved to handle.

 

And the best thing the Republic can come up with is,"let's use them as police and to fight WARS!"

 

*Face palm* Great plan, guys.

 

They could be tyrants as easily as the Sith, just in a different way. Before becoming Sith himself, Anakin was the perfect example of this. And that's only the TIP of what's wrong with the Jedi Order. There is so much in there that is utterly counterproductive if the end purpose is to create emotionally stable people who can be trusted to not misuse their powers. Because ultimately, that's not the purpose. The purpose is actually to create weapons and soldiers. That some Jedi become researchers or healers seems to be the exception to the overwhelming emphasis on martial training.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Bytemite

[Bytemite]

Sorry, that was a bit of a rant.

 

But the point is, I would think using these people to fight wars or be police would far outstrip any of the other possible temptations/dangers of the darkside that might exist for them. In fact the argument against those other possible dangers seems to be that it would impair their ability to be soldiers and/or police.

 

Yet, if they weren't warrior police trained in deadly and destructive and mind-altering abilities, those other dangers would not be quite so dangerous. And if they could only use the non-destructive abilities, training the destructive potential out of them, they'd be only so dangerous as normal non-force sensitives.

 

They're trusted with the responsibility to kill, but they're not trusted with responsibility for their own lives. The priorities seem a little out of whack.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Bytemite

[Euphrosyne]

Aren't you basically arguing against the very notion of enforcing any sort of peaceful law at all, instead of using the Jedi specifically to enforce such a law?

 

Simply apply the same argument to the police forces, or to the military: why train somebody in the use of firearms or martial arts or what have you in order to keep the peace, when the mere act of training someone to do that makes them more dangerous?

 

There's nothing really Jedi-specific in what you're talking about.