Dual-Spec: The Necessary (VERY Necessary) Evil

[Psykhe]

Ummm... right. Because special-forces units are often recalled from deep-insertion to work in field hospitals or to replace combat engineers. Do they know how to use both a pistol AND a rifle well? Of course, those are both equipment required for their role! However, they're not often trained on organ reconstruction, field fortifications, hacking, engine maintenance, helicopter piloting, or anything else. They don't NEED to know those things, they're better off training to do their primary mission to a superlative degree.

 

Do we have helicopter pilots? No? Or hackers? No? Or engineers? No? The roles in SWTOR (and MMORPGs in general) are pretty close to each other. A field medic in a spec ops group can be a gunner without any issues, i.e.

 

If you take this back to the middle-ages, it's even more pronounced.....

 

Except this isn't the middle ages.

 

In the middle ages specialisations were more pronounced, yes. With more technology they became less and less so today however. If you take this into the far future (oh, look where we are is SWTOR, what a coincidence) this becomes even less of an issue.

 

In time with neural interfaces learning a different skillset which would require normally years of training could become possible to do in mere minutes.

 

So, no, from a logic standpoint I do not see no argument whatsoever which supports being locked into a certain spec.

 

 

And from a RPG standpoint it makes little sense too. In the old Granddaddy of MMOs, Ultima Online, you could learn and unlearn skills without any issues. It did not become more difficult in time. And UO is still widely considered having the biggest RP potential of all.

 

Skills do not define a person. The personality defines a person. And that one is totally independent to its job.

If you define your RPGing on your job you are RPGing badly IMO.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Psykhe

[Daekarus]

*throws up hands* I don't know how to make it any clearer... if you can't understand that real people can only be really good at a few things at a time, and that people choose to do some things at the expense of not doing other things, I'm not sure I can help you understand why they made things the way they did.

 

And UO did not derive its RP potential from dual-speccing. But you already knew that...

Edited December 28, 2011 by Daekarus

[epicbears]

What if instead of dual spec, just allow a char. to have a spec for PvE, and a spec for PvP. So, when you are in a PvP area then you can only use the PvP spec, and when not in a PvP area you can only use the PvE spec. Then simply make diffrent quikslot setups for the diffrent skills.

[Psykhe]

*throws up hands* I don't know how to make it any clearer... if you can't understand that real people can only be really good at a few things at a time, and that people choose to do some things at the expense of not doing other things, I'm not sure I can help you understand why they made things the way they did.

 

You cannot just keep learning something and get better indefinitly. There is an upper level. When you reach it you can invest time into other things.

 

By your logic someone could never i.e. be perfectly fluent in more than 1 language. Since it is impossible to be good in more than 1 skillset.

 

Except it is.

 

And UO did not derive its RP potential from dual-speccing. But you already knew that...

 

I never said it did. My point is that it did not loose it by it. Your claim is that dual spec is bad for RP, I say it has no connection to RP.

[dargor-]

I was surprised it wasn't already in at launch, dual-spec is pretty much standard norm for mmos nowadays.

 

There's no valid reason not to have it aside from the purist who are also in arms about romancing same-sex characters (b**tching for the sake of b**tching).

Edited December 28, 2011 by dargor-

[Zedzorander]

Looking forward to a "dual-spec" option. Not sure when they are going to bring it in, but I do believe it will greatly improve our quality of life.

 

Or if they don't want to put it in, make respecs free forever. I've never really understood why they cost something anyway. I mean who cares if we respec every 5min to something else.

[SuperSair]

I'd like dual spec, but I'd also be okay if they didn't put it in, but made respeccing free.

[ObiQuixote]

I don't think they need to go no pain dual spec.

 

Just adding these two changes would work for me.

 

1.

Cap the cost at 10-15k and set the fall off time to a week, so if you don't respec in a weeks time it's back to 500cr. Could be more depending on how much cash you typically make at 50.

 

2.

Save, restore, edit and name a spec UI enhancements to make changing a fairly quick process.

[eightohfive]

I think nescessary is too strong of a word.

 

I also think it's a bit absurd that in a massively multiplayer game, a game specifically designed around you playing with other people, that anyone can truly say they *need* to be completely self-reliant.

 

Make friends. Have fun. And I hope the game weeds out the people who just absolutely refuse to make friends. There are all kinds of other games for those people. MMOs like this should do the exact opposite and encourage social bonding.

 

That doesn't make *any* sense though, having two specs doesn't stop you from having to rely on others. One of the most common uses for dual spec is to have a PvE spec and PvP spec, no matter which one you use you still need a team to do well. The other common use is to have tank/dps specs or heals/dps specs. No matter which of those specs you have, you still NEED 3 other people.

 

All it does is open up your options! I don't know how many times I missed out doing an instance with other people just because we couldn't find one healer or one tank. With dual specs you would still have the option to have one of your dps switch to tank/heals, then find a new dps. So it actually encourages more grouping and it doesn't have any effect on being self reliant (if you are DPS and switch to your TANK dual spec, you still need another DPS to fill in).

[aonix]

No need for dual spec. You want two different classes then make another character. You don't have time? Well, then that is too bad. Do not make the mistake in thinking that the two AC's for a specific base class are not different classes becuase they are completely different.

 

who ever thinks you should have to level another character for the tank/heal/dps version needs to get a life... sorry i work alot and have to worry about other things after work... i dont have time to level 3 of the same class... have you ever played an mmo before? obviosly not if thats you opinion. dont post such

[Merkavar]

dual specs just make sense to me. i kind of hope that they implement dual spec in a way that allows both AC to be involved.

 

for example inquisitors. i love tanking so i will be picking assassin to tank, but i also like to be a useful member of a raid/guild and would like to pick the healing AC too.

 

i dont see the point in leveling a 2nd character to make into a healer? is the class quest any different between the ACs? do assassins get sent of to assassinate people and healers get station in mash unit?

 

i think they should promote people playing many alts to experience the many story lines but shouldnt basically force people who want a healer and tank to play the same story twice.

 

there are 8 character slots as far as i can see. 1 for each class on each side. i love tanking that much that if/when i get around to making each class on each team i will have 6 tanks and probably 2 healers. having dual specs that work across the ACs would mean i would have 6 tanks 4 dps 6 healers, which to me seems to help everyone instead of having a tank or healer shortage.

 

 

but in the end i would still be happy with dual specs that dont go across ACs. so i can tank and dps effectively. a little sick of groups where there are 3 tanks and a healer.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Merkavar

[fudgeeee]

Wow, I cannot really believe how much hate I am hearing about Dual Spec.

 

You honestly think that someone should level up two of the same class, grind out four of the same sets of gear (my example being crit/surge for my sorc) so that I can PvP and PvE.

 

You people are mental, it really goes to show who the casuals are and who the real players are. If you want to gimp yourself and stay one spec and lose viable spec options for your "feel" of the character so be it. But don't hinder the rest of us from maxing out the viable options for our characters in multiple areas. PvE and PvP have very different needs.

 

*edit* And for the record, our modern Military is quiet reliant on "Dual Spec". I was in the Marines for eight years. I can use every weapon that our military fields. I can "pilot" every light armored vehicle we had. And we had training in combat related first aid. I specialized as a forward observer (0844) but given the need I could be a heavy machine gunner, or pass as a combat driver.

Edited January 8, 2012 by fudgeeee

[RoninGT]

I agree that this is a good idea duel specing is very helpful when fill roles or those who want to pvp and pve on the same character. HOWEVER! it should be a talent tree switch within your current advance class not a advance class switch. It should cost an considerable about of money to learn, and be able to learn much later in your levels (like 35-50) I mean i could live without it but it just makes since in a game such as this. Edited January 8, 2012 by RoninGT

[Ansultares]

Personally, I'd be more willing to roll a healer if there was dual speccing. I'm having no problems leveling in a tank spec, but I don't know that I'm willing to give it a go in a healing spec.

From what I understand of the state of PvP, everyone would roll a healer if there was dual spec.

[dargor-]

From what I understand of the state of PvP, everyone would roll a healer if there was dual spec.

 

And nobody would die.

 

on a more serious note, dual specs pl0x

[Valketh]

If it was just a small fee, it probably wouldn't be too big a deal. However, it's also the time involved to travel to a skill mentor, reset all the skill points, change the hotbars and travel to wherever you need to be. That's a noticeable waste of time and it adds up over the course of multiple respecs.

 

Yea, do this enough times and you could spent enough hours to have lvld that 2nd char to 50.

 

The reason l33t mim/maxers want dual/multi role so bad is they don't have their precious raid runs split between multiple chars. It's just that simple. No, it really is. You can spout off all the other justifications you want just want all those raid drops and commendations going to one toon. Well tough ***** Mr./Mrs. I want my cake and eat it too.

[Valketh]

"Wow, I cannot really believe how much hate I am hearing about Dual Spec.

 

You honestly think that someone should level up two of the same class, grind out four of the same sets of gear (my example being crit/surge for my sorc) so that I can PvP and PvE.

 

No I don't. You make due with what the game gives you. Pretty simple. Not fair or unfair since everyone has to do it that way.

 

You people are mental, insults help your arguement it really goes to show who the casuals are and who the real players are. casual players are mental in case you guys reading this missed that inferenceIf you want to gimp yourself and stay one spec if everyone is in the same boat I guess we're all gimpedand lose viable spec options for your "feel" of the character so be it. But don't hinder the rest of us from maxing out the viable options for our characters in multiple areas. PvE and PvP have very different needs.correct, so plan accordingly as you level up your toon i.e. be great at pve or pvp or spec somewhere in the middle, if you don't like that plan then use one of the other 7 character slots

 

*edit* And for the record, our modern Military is quiet reliant on "Dual Spec". I was in the Marines for eight years. I can use every weapon that our military fields. I can "pilot" every light armored vehicle we had. And we had training in combat related first aid. I specialized as a forward observer (0844) but given the need I could be a heavy machine gunner, or pass as a combat driver. "And for the record this is a game. Not RL. But Semper Fi regardless.

[Valketh]

Ummm... right. Because special-forces units are often recalled from deep-insertion to work in field hospitals or to replace combat engineers. Do they know how to use both a pistol AND a rifle well? Of course, those are both equipment required for their role! However, they're not often trained on organ reconstruction, field fortifications, hacking, engine maintenance, helicopter piloting, or anything else. They don't NEED to know those things, they're better off training to do their primary mission to a superlative degree.

 

If you take this back to the middle-ages, it's even more pronounced.... you had to train for your entire life to shoot longbows, for instance, and you can bet knights didn't waste their time operating catapults.

 

EDIT: Trust me, spend a little time with real firearms and you'll realize that special-forces level proficiency in operation of even a single weapons platform like the M16/M4 is a heroic undertaking to obtain AND maintain. Now consider that the training for their single role is HUGELY more complex than that one facet. It is simply not realistic to expect a single person to be able to do absolutely everything. If that were possible, world militaries would be considerably smaller, special forces team members wouldn't specialize, and James Bond wouldn't be fiction.

 

The whole point of the entire class and skill system is specialization, associating a certain set of abilities and experience with a character. Dual-speccing destroys this, leaving us with characters that are simply paper dolls in which you place the desired abilities rather than developing and growing a specific skillset with time. It is a symptom of pervasive metagaming, or more bluntly, the result of stunted imaginations that cannot appreciate or understand immersion and character development. Please go ruin some other MMO without the RPG component, there are plenty of them out there.

 

Can I make this my sig?

[KrolRybak]

Valketh, you made an elaborate post, which can be streamlined to: "game is as it is, deal with it", but the thing is, some of us would like to, in ceratin aspects, have it looking differently. Why won't you allow it? What are the problems that, from your perspective, make this a bad idea? Edited January 8, 2012 by KrolRybak

[Dabachelor]

Waiting 2 hours or just praying someone will come on or come along who is willing or wants to be bothered with healing is ridiculous dual spec's would open that field wide open either that or do like gw did make merc's you can hire that can heal you , tank for you and dps for you to make it possible to do Heroic 4's but truthfully something needs to be done! People made these instance's to be played and seen along with your current level not to be skipped b/c everyone is on the rush to 50 which right now doesn't seem all to amazing, that's just my opinion.

[erieone]

I think we need a dual spec system simply because so few players want to play dedicated healers and tanks. They are harder to level and often times very few are available. On our server its been impossible to find a group for any flashpoint because of a lack of tanks and healers. Late game it becomes more important to really embrace and "live" your role. As we level though being able to switch specs would be really nice and in my opinion would help more people see the content of the game.

[drealmer]

I think we need a dual spec system simply because so few players want to play dedicated healers and tanks. They are harder to level and often times very few are available. On our server its been impossible to find a group for any flashpoint because of a lack of tanks and healers. Late game it becomes more important to really embrace and "live" your role. As we level though being able to switch specs would be really nice and in my opinion would help more people see the content of the game.

 

another way to see the content of the game is to ROLL A HEALER yourself, novel idea eh? quit complaining there are no healers and make a healer. it's not an argument for dual-spec. on any legitimate level. the only argument for wanting dual-spec. is "I'm too lazy to play another character I think you should just GIVE ME ONE NOW."

[StealthStalker]

Haven't read the thread, nor very many of these since we've had I don't know, a thousand of them since the dawn of time. Why do they continue to appear when it's already been stated they plan to implement this at a future date?

 

At this point the debate shouldn't be whether or not dual spec is needed, but how soon should it appear. The sooner, the better.

[FuzzNasty]

another way to see the content of the game is to ROLL A HEALER yourself, novel idea eh? quit complaining there are no healers and make a healer. it's not an argument for dual-spec. on any legitimate level. the only argument for wanting dual-spec. is "I'm too lazy to play another character I think you should just GIVE ME ONE NOW."

 

 

It is an argument for dual-spec. There's no reason to force someone to level two different sorcerers so they can have a healer and a dps.

 

Having dual specs saves people the time of leveling the same class and AC to max level. Why would you make someone go through the same exactly storyline?

 

There's no reason to make someone do that. They've already put the work in.

 

If they want to heal/dps effectively they still have to get two sets of gear.

 

Dual-speccing doesn't mean someone is lazy, they still have to put in the work to be good at both roles. It just means they don't have to go through the storyline again or log in/out of characters every time their group/party needs a new role or something.

 

I've yet to see a good argument for why there shouldn't be dual speccing. I think most people in this thread arguing against it don't even know what it actually means.

[Juneaux]

as a Tank I would love for a duel spec. Tanks are useless in PVP and you never get rewarded for being a tank in PVP. I can never get more than 4 medals in a game on my 50 assassin tank. Where when I go dps I never get less than 8 medals. Its a broken system that rewards big numbers so all of the dps classes get the highest number of medals where the tanks just sit there taunting and trying to KS. I will score in hutt ball 5 times and end up with 2 medals at the end of the game. The pvp system is massively broken. I can't afford 100k respec every time I want to do some pvp. This needs to be implemented soon or I wont be playing this game anymore.