Fix scoundrel/operative healers now!

[NoTomorrow]

Since when is commando not ranged?

 

I am not interested in this class at all, sorry. They can do with it whatever they want unless they bring 1.1 commando healers.

Edited June 8, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[DariusCalera]

Since when is commando not ranged?

 

Since no cares about us.

[Comfterbilly]

The experiment with unstoppable killers hasn't worked, BW. It's time to stop it. Scoundrel/operative healers are ruining everybody else's WZ fun.

 

I'm behind the times on this argument. Did scoun/ops get something other than the new roll?

[ToMyMa]

I am not interested in this class at all, sorry. They can do with it whatever they want unless they bring 1.1 commando healers.

 

Well, I never actually got to experience commando heals in 1.1... Because I'm a scrub at levelling and gearing...

[Master-Nala]

I'm behind the times on this argument. Did scoun/ops get something other than the new roll?

 

Scoundrels/Operatives have three big changes that are contributing to this feeling they are OP.

 

1) The roll;

2) Slow release medpack can be talented to be very cheap on energy (6 energy IIRC, typing on my phone);

3) Passive energy regen was increased by about 20%.

 

These changes mean that it is very easy to keep a HoT on 4+ people at a time. Plus since that can proc Upper Hand, it means Scoundrels can use Emergency medpack pretty much at will (which will itself regrant Upper Hand if the recipient is low on health).

[Ifolad]

no no, it's the fact that people aren't used to NOT BEING ABLE to 3 shot a healer and it hurts their ego. They see a scoundrel, non-force user, tech user, a little scantly clad twilek with a teeny gun rolling all over the place. Their first response is "OMG OMG OMG HEALER!!!!" Mark healer, kill healer!. 10 seconds later when they are respawning b/c they can't find/melee force punch said teeny healer with teeny gun they get rage-face and call for NERF.

 

3 things

 

1: TTK is too short

2: healers raise TTK

3: it should take more than 1 or 2 dps to kill a good healer

 

IS IT POSSIBLE...... that some healers might actually be good players who know the maps, know the tactics, play with friends who watch their back, and who work as a team?

 

IS IT POSSIBLE..... that some DPS know ONLY their spec, class, and have NO CLUE what other class's specs are capable of?

 

IS IT POSSIBLE.... that these same DPS got spoiled when healers were ancient artifacts from 1.2.

 

IS IT POSSIBLE... For some teams to have an "ANTI-HEALER" person dedicated/built/created to kill ONLY healers....what a concept eh?

 

What is an anti healer? Get back to me on that one and we'll compare theories.

[Comfterbilly]

Scoundrels/Operatives have three big changes that are contributing to this feeling they are OP.

 

1) The roll;

2) Slow release medpack can be talented to be very cheap on energy (6 energy IIRC, typing on my phone);

3) Passive energy regen was increased by about 20%.

 

These changes mean that it is very easy to keep a HoT on 4+ people at a time. Plus since that can proc Upper Hand, it means Scoundrels can use Emergency medpack pretty much at will (which will itself regrant Upper Hand if the recipient is low on health).

 

Ahh aha. Yeah the roll uses a lot of energy but I always see them back topped off. The couple times I have witnessed OP scoundrels today, my thoughts were: cross healing was bad enough now devs give to ops/scoundrels the ability not to even need it.

 

To me, it's been game breaking because, yes the heals stops healing the team to heal themselves, but in a warzone where the objective is to just keep the other team from capping, just staying alive is all it takes to keep from letting a cap happen. You can still focus down the op/scoundrel but those security doors are probably going to open by the time that happens, with all the rolls, medpacks and CD's.

 

/sign

Edited June 8, 2013 by Comfterbilly

[Ifolad]

EDIT: Want to know what's OP, smash from 1.7, Snipers/slingers not being able to be interrupted. Not being able to force leap/grapple a scoundrel who's CROUCHED BEHIND NOTHING.

 

Ifolad <<<< plays scoundrel, tankernaut, combatsent, TK and SEER sage, all 3 specs of shadow depending on how i'm feeling that day, VG tank and tactics spec depending on how i'm feeling that day, the only classes i don't play are slinger/sniper and Mando. IMOHO which WILL and MAY vary from person to person is that no class in this game is OP. Certain abilities are SORTA OP, BUT i have found that even crouched scoundrels hiding behind nothing can be taken care of even if they are a healer.

 

I play one, i know how it's done to me, I also know how to counteract it, but it can't be done ALL THE TIME. Eventually the DarkYoda's will sneak up and stab stab stab you in the back, you roll away, they yank you right back, you roll away, they force speed to your back, you roll away and try to heal and you're out of energy and dead. Cloak out, ok, but then what, a SIN on a mission WILL kill the scoundrel healer if not he prevents said healer from doing anything BUT running/hiding till help arrives.

[Neoforcer]

6 sniper 1 sin and a operative healer go into a warezone. All pugs but the sin and operative healer being in the same guild. The pub team a premade OF LD50 on Jedi covenant with at least 2 of the best pub healers on my server. The rest of the Pub team was high dps classes. The pub focus fire and they were all on voice chat. Guess who won with no one dieing on there team with only 1 operative healer. 6 snipers 1 sin and 1 operative healer beat a premade of good players with high dps classes and focus fire team play.

 

Now say operative healers and smuggler heals are not OP and it's a learn to play issue

[BuzzingFridge]

If you are a sniper and you cannot force an op/scoundrel healer to LOS you and thus los his teammates and thus dramatically lower his healing and force him to be healing himself behind said LOS then you are doing it wrong.

 

Mercs and Sorcs are also a problem for healer Operatives at the moment. Pre-2.0 I would just ignore them. Now I constantly have to work to LOS them. Juggernauts and Marauders seem to be less of a threat post-2.0, so it's probably those guys who are creating all these QQ threads. Or just bad Sorcs/Mercs/Snipers.

 

And I'm not complaining about this change. I like having to work hard to stay alive AND heal my teammates. If I could just sit back and heal all day with no pressure, PvP would be just like PvEasy...boring.

Edited June 8, 2013 by BuzzingFridge

[Cretinus]

3: it should take more than 1 or 2 dps to kill a good healer

 

That's the silliest thing I read here today. A healer is not a tank, you know? A healer should have a very good chance to survive a 1X1, but that's all. Against 2 DPS, a healer should go down like everybody else.

[jedimasterjac]

"Fix"? Nothing's broken.

[StaticSilence]

I come to these forums whenever I need a good laugh, and this thread has definitely provided a good chortle or two.

 

Some suggestions for those who can't handle an operative:

 

1) First of all, target them FFS. Too often I see people on my team wailing on the jugg tank or a mara when the operative is free casting 30 meters away. Probably the same people wailing on that jugg are the ones qq'ing here.

 

2) Interrupt the casts. if you have one, know when to use it. save your stuns and cc's for their healing attempts. Don't waste these on getting a kill.

 

3) Know your own class. On my vanguard tank i know my harpoon and storm also interrupt casts. I use them accordingly. With those two, plus neural surge, cryo grenade, and my interrupt that's FIVE ways to stop a healer's cast. Yes, some classes have more options than others. My gunslinger has less but her interrupt works at 35 meters, making it really easy to harass healers. And her dps output is punishing compared to my vanguard tank. My tank needs those FIVE ways to stop a healer. Which leads me to...

 

4) Harass the healer. It's so simple yet so few do it. Applying damage to the healer will force them to heal/defend themselves. This takes them out of the fight and disrupts their rotation and typical playstyle. You'd be amazed how people buckle when you apply a little pressure to them.

 

5)Do you have a friend in game? one would hope so. Team up and focus the same healer. A healer can't outheal two people dps'ing them.

 

6) Mark the eff'ing healer. Stop ************ and put a symbol on the eff'ers head. Some rounds i feel like i'm the only one who know how to do that.

 

ok I'm done here now.

Edited June 8, 2013 by StaticSilence

[BuzzingFridge]

4) Harass the healer. It's so simple yet so few do it. Applying damage to the healer will force them to heal/defend themselves. This takes them out of the fight and disrupts their rotation and typical playstyle. You'd be amazed how people buckle when you apply a little pressure to them.

 

A good DPS can force an Operative healer to concentrate on self-healing. They won't be able to kill them (unless the Operative is bad), but they are preventing them from healing their teammates. If you sideline an opposition healer for large chunks of a fight, your team is going to perform better. It's really quite simple, yet this fact just gets lost in all the crying about "not being able to kill healers".

[Astarica]

The only reason why Snipers even do okay against Operatives is because they've a healing debuff, which is kind of a gimmick anyway (though a very powerful one). Usually you're better off just heal debuff someone else who is far more likely to stay within your LoS and then try to burst that guy down when you factor the difficulty to burst down an Operative due to all their tricks.

 

Someone mentioned this is a lot like when Marauders were top of the food chain for a while and they were telling everyone it's not because the class is overpowered but that people who play Marauders are awesome. Now that Marauders are fairly average again, apparently all the guys who used to be awesome at playing Marauder are no longer that awesome.

 

One thing I always found weird about healers is that if it's a class that's supposed to be dependent on team, how come there's all these talents in the healing tree that makes you hard to kill? Aren't you supposed to depend on the team for survival? In particular, there used to be the massive 'healing received' talent which only make sense in PvP (nobody's going to have a healer tank anything in PvE). It seems like there are two separate design philosophy when it comes to talents. In one school healers are made to be self-sufficient (all the various survival talents are on healer tree, and often better than the dps trees), and on the other hand heals are made to be very strong as if the class is assumed to have poor survivality, except it's not true.

[Astarica]

A good DPS can force an Operative healer to concentrate on self-healing. They won't be able to kill them (unless the Operative is bad), but they are preventing them from healing their teammates. If you sideline an opposition healer for large chunks of a fight, your team is going to perform better. It's really quite simple, yet this fact just gets lost in all the crying about "not being able to kill healers".

 

If you repeat a lie often enough it must be true.

 

If it was possible to force an Op to only heal himself, then his amount healed has to be less than whoever is attacking him because he can only heal the damage he's taken on himself, which comes from the guy harassing him. Good luck finding a WZ leaderboard that shows any single target DPS coming even close to what an Operative can heal for.

 

What actually happens is you do 500K to an Operative and he heals for a million damage because most of his heals can all be cast while running instantly. If anyone's neutralized it's the DPS not the healer. In fact this is so futile it's arguably better to ignore the Operative in this case because your DPS is greatly reduced while chasing an Operative (they'll find various way to open space), while if you attack a DPS at least you do close to your 100% DPS. If you have heal debuffs, it's often better to debuff and burst down DPS instead of the Operative because at least it gives you a temporary advantage.

 

You're simply a bad DPS if you think you can come anywhere close to break even against an Operative healer.

[Cretinus]

A good DPS can force an Operative healer to concentrate on self-healing. They won't be able to kill them (unless the Operative is bad), but they are preventing them from healing their teammates. If you sideline an opposition healer for large chunks of a fight, your team is going to perform better. It's really quite simple, yet this fact just gets lost in all the crying about "not being able to kill healers".

 

Stop bulls.hiting yourself. The reason why you never die and are able to pull these crazy heal numbers out of the hat is surely not that you're good and everybody else is bad.

You play a stupidly overpowerded class that has way too much weight for the outcome of a WZ. It will be nerfed soon. Enjoy as long as it lasts, but stop taking yourself and others for fools.

 

P.S. This topic is not about healers in general, but about operative/scoundrel healers.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Cretinus

[ToMyMa]

6 sniper 1 sin and a operative healer go into a warezone. All pugs but the sin and operative healer being in the same guild. The pub team a premade OF LD50 on Jedi covenant with at least 2 of the best pub healers on my server. The rest of the Pub team was high dps classes. The pub focus fire and they were all on voice chat. Guess who won with no one dieing on there team with only 1 operative healer. 6 snipers 1 sin and 1 operative healer beat a premade of good players with high dps classes and focus fire team play.

 

Now say operative healers and smuggler heals are not OP and it's a learn to play issue

 

Snipers are OP... But they hard counter melee (non-stealth)

 

'Nuff said

[Neoforcer]

Snipers are OP... But they hard counter melee (non-stealth)

 

'Nuff said

 

You missed the point which is it did not matter what other classes were there there team could not kill the operative healer no mater were he was no death of are team not a one. When one healer can keep up a hole team at what point do you think a class is OP?

[Mordeguy]

I come to these forums whenever I need a good laugh, and this thread has definitely provided a good chortle or two.

 

Some suggestions for those who can't handle an operative:[/Quote]

 

I will respond accordingly

 

1) First of all, target them FFS. Too often I see people on my team wailing on the jugg tank or a mara when the operative is free casting 30 meters away. Probably the same people wailing on that jugg are the ones qq'ing here.

 

Targeting them huh... amazing strategy. Did you just come up with that on your own? I'm sure rated teams that have to play constant stalemates because no one dies will have a whole new outlook on things because of this development.

 

2) Interrupt the casts. if you have one, know when to use it. save your stuns and cc's for their healing attempts. Don't waste these on getting a kill.

 

You understand how little of an impact an interrupt has on scoundrel healing especially when they have teammates helping them right? They can heal well enough to escape and help a friend without needing to stop and cast. It's easy for them to get into a position where they can cast when they do need to.

 

3) Know your own class. On my vanguard tank i know my harpoon and storm also interrupt casts. I use them accordingly. With those two, plus neural surge, cryo grenade, and my interrupt that's FIVE ways to stop a healer's cast. Yes, some classes have more options than others. My gunslinger has less but her interrupt works at 35 meters, making it really easy to harass healers. And her dps output is punishing compared to my vanguard tank. My tank needs those FIVE ways to stop a healer. Which leads me to...

 

Ok, PLEASE use your CC to stop my casts. That way when I'm low HP and you need them my resolve will be full and you won't have anything to use anyway. Meanwhile my hots are rolling regardless and I can easily roll away and los your harpoon and storm long enough if I need to cast. Not to mention I could stun you, mez you, slow you or stun/vanish to give you the slip.

 

4) Harass the healer. It's so simple yet so few do it. Applying damage to the healer will force them to heal/defend themselves. This takes them out of the fight and disrupts their rotation and typical playstyle. You'd be amazed how people buckle when you apply a little pressure to them.

 

This is pretty much the same point you made with 2 and 3. Again, nothing revolutionary here. You'd be amazed how easy it is to heal yourself and 2-3 other people on an operative even while being harassed. Meanwhile the jugg just choked, slapped, pushed, slowed, taunted, guarded and mezzed your little focus party so the scoundrel is on the other side of the pillar laughing at you.

 

5)Do you have a friend in game? one would hope so. Team up and focus the same healer. A healer can't outheal two people dps'ing them.

 

By this statement I can tell you're talking about pugging regular warzones. It's not hard to kill people there because there is no organization (I still see games with very few deaths in pug matches nonetheless). Put an operative healer on a team that knows how to assist them and it becomes this never ending balancing act where neither team dies.

 

Here's the thing. It's not about KNOWING how to counter them on paper. It's about the fact that even if you try your best in practice they are so insanely hard to take down right now that people don't die. Replace them with merc healers and this isn't the case.

 

6) Mark the eff'ing healer. Stop ************ and put a symbol on the eff'ers head. Some rounds i feel like i'm the only one who know how to do that.

 

Again, knowledge of how to deal with them isn't the issue. It takes calculated and coordinated set up to take down a good one. A tiny slip up means you missed your short window and that node battle will continue endlessly. That's how it feels to go against a good operative healer right now. It's not as simple as a few dps jumping them in a pug game and them not receiving any help. Teams plan battle strategies around 2 things right now in rateds. Keeping their scoundrel healers up, and killing the other team's scoundrel healers. You can't accomplish anything with these guys running around, you have to stop them. So if you really think that rated teams don't know to target the healer I believe you should expand your thinking beyond the disorganized randomness of regular WZ and try thinking about the organized play where balance actually comes into play.

 

ok I'm done here now.

 

Good to know you're open to discussion and learning things.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Mordeguy

[Alundo]

You missed the point which is it did not matter what other classes were there there team could not kill the operative healer no mater were he was no death of are team not a one. When one healer can keep up a hole team at what point do you think a class is OP?

 

Pretty sure any healer could keep a team of Snipers/Slingers up, they'll blast anyone who tries to hit the healer to pieces, so freeheals...

Edited June 8, 2013 by Alundo

[Comfterbilly]

A good DPS can force an Operative healer to concentrate on self-healing. They won't be able to kill them (unless the Operative is bad), but they are preventing them from healing their teammates.

 

Your argument means nothing if the objective of the warzone is to cap a turret or a door, but the op/scoundrel cannot be killed, what does it matter if he can't heal his teammates, you still can't cap before they get back.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Comfterbilly

[HaoZhao]

Your argument means nothing if the objective of the warzone is to cap a turret or a door, but the op/scoundrel cannot be killed, what does it matter if he can't heal his teammates, you still can't cap before they get back.

 

I'm reading a lot of "solutions" here and they seem to mostly neglect what you've mentioned in your post. War zones have objectives. If you have 2 people guarding a pylon, and you send 2 people to waste time trying to occupy a brick wall healer, that leaves you with just 4 people to handle all of the other team's offence. And of course the geniuses who suggest sending 2 or 3 DPS as a the cure-all solution to a good healer never think for a second how their plan will work out if there's a second healer nearby. What then? Send all 6 offensive members on the team to throw themselves at 2 healers? If I saw something like that happening, I would immediately think that two people could go stealth steal the enemy pylon and they wouldn't realize it before it's too late.

 

Knock back healers. Stun them. Interrupt their heals when your cooldowns allow. Do not spend the entire match having two or three members of the team chasing one enemy. If you let a healer take two or three people away from the WZ's objectives, then the healer has definitely won. Coordinated attacks on healers may work in pre-made teams where everyone is on vent, but in a PUG, it's almost always a huge waste of manpower.

[kweassa]

You cap the node/door/bunker when you kill every enemy standing.

 

Simple enough.

 

What if the healer is at some place guarding a node you say? Well, if he's guarding something there alone, then he's definitely not anywhere else healing or crosshealing others. So, you send one person to keep him occupied, and then hit the other place.

 

Again, simple tactics.

[MotorCityMan]

The experiment with unstoppable killers hasn't worked, BW. It's time to stop it. Scoundrel/operative healers are ruining everybody else's WZ fun.

Ya, sure is different from pve xbox shooters on easymode where you can Pew Pew and everything dies right away.