Scoundrels impossible to kill

[Alundo]

Nope, you're totally correct. A good Concealment/Scrapper player is a nightmare for Operative/Scoundrel healers. I was PUGing last night and there were two Scrapper Scoundrels constantly trying to double-team me. It was a challenge to stay alive, let alone provide decent support for my team. They are extremely difficult to get away from as well, because they have the same roll as I do, can clear all my slows and can keep firing at me while they're chasing.

 

I feel like a lot of the Concealment/Scrapper players that cry about their class being "unplayable" are just trying to do too much with it. It's one of the best classes in the game for taking out healers and key DPS players, but they want to be able to go toe-to-toe with any class in the game to feed their E-Peen.

 

Fortunately, the Concealment/Scrapper spec does have a counter...good teamwork and marking. If I am struggling with them I usually let my team know and then stay close so that when they pop out of stealth my team-mates can stomp their face.

 

100% Agree

 

I destroy Sawbones/Sages (armored up commando's dont die as quick but I can stop them healing other people at least) when left to my own devices, knock em over, dot em up, stun em, explosive probe, backstab with acid blade, inturrupt the main heal so they can only have HoT's, then its time to spam laceration which will proberbly proc another one.

 

But as you say, good teamwork and marking takes me down, I've found that if a team is fed up of me sneaking to the back and killing healers, I'm the primary target.

 

As for the above comment on Operative DPS.

 

Hidden Strike: Depending on the target: 5k - 7.5k crit.

Backstab: Anything from 5 to 6.5k crits. (sometimes 7k)

Explosive probe: 4 - 6k crit.

Lacerate: 4 - 5k crit, I can spam this move 3/4 times in a row with procs, then its time to shiv and do another one.

Corrosive Dart even crits for 1.2k! lol

 

Yes yes I know, it dependent on crits, but you would be surprised how often I down people with crit streaks.

 

I'm currently using Full Field Medic Conq gear with skill augments.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Alundo

[Frankenseuss]

I sure wish I knew how to be impossible to kill. My healer sorc and healer op gone down pretty easy when they get focused.

All these derp dps want to do is Pew pew randomly and have stuff fall over. When it doesn't, they think the game is broke and start crying for nerfs. Nerf tanks, nerf tank guard, nerf healing, nerf op rolls, nerf nerf nerf. They want mmo pvp to be like their xbox shooter on easymode

 

^^^^ This. I find that healers are indeed powerful when left alone, or only have to deal with one dps. In fact, my sorcerer laughs at the one dps trying to kill me. But when there are three players on me at once, yeah I don't last very long.

[bsbrad]

2 Healers side by side cross healing, if they are competent and half decent at kiting can survive against an entire team no matter who is focused. Add a tank who switches guard correctly and you are not taking them down.

 

I have noticed Operative Healers to be a little more difficult than sorcs or mercs to take down but usually this is down to the Operatives knowing how to kite. Also when taking a sorc down you can keep beating on them until they use their resources then they are an easy kill, mercs need interrupting (dont know how many ppl still dont have their interrupt key bound). Operatives just never seem to run out of energy post 2.0 so all you can do is keep hitting them until they can only heal themselves. This takes a long time and in an objective based game like the most of the WZs are it is nigh on impossible to cap anything if you have a half decent operative guarding.

[kweassa]

2 Healers side by side cross healing, if they are competent and half decent at kiting can survive against an entire team no matter who is focused. Add a tank who switches guard correctly and you are not taking them down.

 

"Competency" is a relative term, and thus when you have even more competent attackers, then they would naturally be able to overcome the defense/heal attempts, and ultimately will shut the healing down long/often enough to kill. Therefore, bringing in "competency" as a factor tends to solidify the conclusion that fighting healers is really a "L2P" issue.

 

Each side has theoretical methods to counter each other -- therefore, who wins will ultimately be decided by which side is skilled/competent enough to bring on more of the "hypothetical/theoretical" solutions and execute it perfectly in actual combat, without mistakes... hence, pragmatically speaking, the most direct and effective means of countering a certain problem in PvP, being always "L2P".

 

 

I have noticed Operative Healers to be a little more difficult than sorcs or mercs to take down but usually this is down to the Operatives knowing how to kite. Also when taking a sorc down you can keep beating on them until they use their resources then they are an easy kill, mercs need interrupting (dont know how many ppl still dont have their interrupt key bound). Operatives just never seem to run out of energy post 2.0 so all you can do is keep hitting them until they can only heal themselves. This takes a long time and in an objective based game like the most of the WZs are it is nigh on impossible to cap anything if you have a half decent operative guarding.

 

Ultimately, when you have two people who are coordinated enough to cycle interrupts, you can almost indefinately cut off all forms of healing. Even if it is potent, an insta-cast heal can never really outheal the amount of damage done from multiple people focusing. Typically, an Ops/Scoundrel will first be focused, drop a lot in HP, and then will use CDs to buy time to heal back up. It's from that point on the real game begins, and the focus fire needs to be coordinated to deal maximum burst damage in as short time as possible. At that burst moment the Ops/Scoundrel can lose more HP than can be gained back, and its that point where cross-healing becomes necessary.

 

Except, in my case I can focus the target, see another healer activating heals, immediately switch targets to interrupt it or CC him, and then switch targets again to focus again.. and all of this action within 3 seconds. Within that time, I can stop a third healer from trying to heal the main focus target as well, if I concentrate hard enoough, although from that point I will need other team members to latch onto those other healers as well. I'm not really a good player, but if there's one thing I did practice enough, is the art of target-switching at will.

 

It takes effort, but it is possible. And if somebody like me can learn and practice to do it, so can anyone.

[bsbrad]

^^ While I agree in principle, tab targeting between the healers who are cross healing for interrupt is always welcome. Having a team co-ordinate that and focus down the primary target is extremely difficult.

 

Try taking out two operative healers guarding a door in Voidstar while they dance around the columns to break LOS on any hard hitting attack. If your lucky you may be able to stun one long enough out of the LOS of the other, but a couple of scampers and the 2nd Operative will be cross healing the stunned one.

 

With the way resolve works in this game you will find it hard to keep these operatives/scoundrels stunned for any length of time to take both of them down and cap the door. Remember usually while this is happening they are simply buying time to let their DPS stun/kill/interrupt you.

 

When you finally think you have got them cornered they will self cleanse and do combat stealth and be back in time to interrupt the door cap.

 

Which leads me onto a suggestion, maybe the cleanse should only be able to cleanse the latest dot applied then DPS can use cover dots like other games allow. It is sometimes annoying when I am on my Hybrid Sniper and I apply Interrogation Probe, Corrosive Dart and Corrosive Grenade and a single cleanse removes the lot.

 

As always I reserve the right to be called a Noob and always need to L2P.

Edited June 6, 2013 by bsbrad

[Mordeguy]

stun interupt dps rinse and repeat win.

 

As soon as I come across a scoundrel that doesn't try to run away, has a bugged resolve bar, actually casts something, doesn't use their own CCs and has no team mates around to peel/protect for him/her I'm sure this will work wonderfully.

[SajPl]

As soon as I come across a scoundrel that doesn't try to run away, has a bugged resolve bar, actually casts something, doesn't use their own CCs and has no team mates around to peel/protect for him/her I'm sure this will work wonderfully.

 

you are bad

[NoTomorrow]

you are bad

 

If you two switched places, him being the healer and you the dps, you wouldnt be able to do crap about him. Would that mean that you are also bad?

Edited June 6, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[SajPl]

If you two switched places, him being the healer and you the dps, you wouldnt be able to do crap about him. Would that mean that you are also bad?

 

I shut down healers just fine.

[Mordeguy]

you are bad

 

I shut down healers just fine.

 

Lets hear your strategies oh wise one. And not talking about random under geared pugs. Have you seen a rated game lately? When two good teams meet hardly anyone dies at all, and if they do it's not usually the agent/smuggler healer.

 

Everyone knows the basics of stopping a healer, but any smuggler that lets himself be shut down with simple tactics isn't very good or is very under geared vs his/her opponents. I'm not even whining, it's a reality right now that people don't die because healing is so good and the healers in question don't have many weaknesses when it comes to survival. I have a scoundrel healer, played it for a long time. It was easy to survive pre 2.0 and easier now.

 

So lets hear it, you come across a GEARED scoundrel that is being protected by their team. Lets hear how you go in there and shut them down.

[-Esper-]

This is your 2d the same theme. First was here http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=647783 And what U try to do with this? Just to troll scoundrels? Try first to play with this class to see how is hard to play with him and how is hard to become professional in this class. U will understand then that juggernauts must be nerfed to not be the most famous class on warzones because of being more effective class then others. 1 to 1 juggernaut always win against scoundrel, and if one warzone will have 6 juggernauts from one side, but another will have 6 scoundrels, the same situation, juggernauts win. Edited June 7, 2013 by -Esper-

[Jorojus]

Lets hear your strategies oh wise one. And not talking about random under geared pugs. Have you seen a rated game lately? When two good teams meet hardly anyone dies at all, and if they do it's not usually the agent/smuggler healer.

 

Everyone knows the basics of stopping a healer, but any smuggler that lets himself be shut down with simple tactics isn't very good or is very under geared vs his/her opponents. I'm not even whining, it's a reality right now that people don't die because healing is so good and the healers in question don't have many weaknesses when it comes to survival. I have a scoundrel healer, played it for a long time. It was easy to survive pre 2.0 and easier now.

 

So lets hear it, you come across a GEARED scoundrel that is being protected by their team. Lets hear how you go in there and shut them down.

 

Teamwork, talking about normal warzones here.

Ranked between two "good" and equal "teams" is pretty rare I think. But in the end the best team always win I guess, if you are able to kill someone or not.

[kweassa]

Lets hear your strategies oh wise one. And not talking about random under geared pugs. Have you seen a rated game lately? When two good teams meet hardly anyone dies at all, and if they do it's not usually the agent/smuggler healer.

 

Everyone knows the basics of stopping a healer, but any smuggler that lets himself be shut down with simple tactics isn't very good or is very under geared vs his/her opponents. I'm not even whining, it's a reality right now that people don't die because healing is so good and the healers in question don't have many weaknesses when it comes to survival. I have a scoundrel healer, played it for a long time. It was easy to survive pre 2.0 and easier now.

 

So lets hear it, you come across a GEARED scoundrel that is being protected by their team. Lets hear how you go in there and shut them down.

 

Pretty much empty argument. I can use the same basic lines, and simply mention that only the random under-geared and under-skilled PuG people have problems in shutting down healers.

 

Besides, when you come across a GEARED scoundrel that is being protected by their team, you don't shut him down alone. Effectively that becomes a team effort where the whole fight itself is an endeavor for a common goal, people harassing healers + people harassing the cross-healer + people peeling our own healer + people focusing enemy DPS.

 

You're basically asking something like, "alright, so how do you play football, when the other team has a strong line defense?" You want someone to explain the entire number of tactics coaches use or something?

[Mordeguy]

Pretty much empty argument. I can use the same basic lines, and simply mention that only the random under-geared and under-skilled PuG people have problems in shutting down healers.

 

Besides, when you come across a GEARED scoundrel that is being protected by their team, you don't shut him down alone. Effectively that becomes a team effort where the whole fight itself is an endeavor for a common goal, people harassing healers + people harassing the cross-healer + people peeling our own healer + people focusing enemy DPS.

 

You're basically asking something like, "alright, so how do you play football, when the other team has a strong line defense?" You want someone to explain the entire number of tactics coaches use or something?

 

Teamwork, talking about normal warzones here.

Ranked between two "good" and equal "teams" is pretty rare I think. But in the end the best team always win I guess, if you are able to kill someone or not.

 

Not sure you guys are getting the context of my posts. I know what you're supposed to do to take down a healer, I was responding to people that act like it's simple and easy when it's not anymore.

 

And I'm not asking for the sake of under geared pugs, that's why I exclude them. Balance isn't done around 1v1 random pugs that probably don't have their gear and lack the teammates to complement their strengths. Team play balance is what matters.

 

Stalemates are not that rare anymore, that's the thing. You CAN make the argument that only under geared pugs have trouble taking down healers, but you'd be wrong. People die a lot less in ranked games. It's a lot harder to kill a healer there.

 

The point is, knowing HOW to take down a healer doesn't mean it's going to happen. You have to coordinate kills with your entire squad and even then most of the time the healer will get away if it's an op or smuggler. So I ask, for these people claiming it's easy to kill and lock down healers, what is this magic tactic they are using? Just stating the basics of "interrupt, stun, dps" is about the equivalent of saying "me hit with stick". It's implying a simplicity that does not translate to actual gameplay at higher levels. These things are givens that everyone in ranked games knows and yet healers don't die. See the problem?

 

My post isn't about whining, it's not like I want healers to die instantly and I think they should be tough to kill. I just think there is a problem when healing is so dominant and people don't die in pvp because of it. I solo kill lesser healers all the time in pug games. That doesn't mean things are balanced when it comes to high level play.

[Jorojus]

 

So I ask, for these people claiming it's easy to kill and lock down healers, what is this magic tactic they are using? Just stating the basics of "interrupt, stun, dps" is about the equivalent of saying "me hit with stick". It's implying a simplicity that does not translate to actual gameplay at higher levels. These things are givens that everyone in ranked games knows and yet healers don't die. See the problem?

 

My post isn't about whining, it's not like I want healers to die instantly and I think they should be tough to kill. I just think there is a problem when healing is so dominant and people don't die in pvp because of it. I solo kill lesser healers all the time in pug games. That doesn't mean things are balanced when it comes to high level play.

 

I see you are talking about ranked mostly.

 

The thing is that the actual gameplay at higher levels or otherwise ranked you are talking about is played by maybe 20 procent of the population that play this game and that's a fair big number I think I am giving here.

 

I am not sure if alot of "New mmo players" that enter this game would roll a healer if they made a healer harder to play and if Bioware considers about these mechanics to keep more players.

 

I remember one update f.e. don't remember wich number where nobody wanted to play a healer anymore because ttk was way to short. They fixed that one pretty fast if I remember correctly.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Jorojus

[Cretinus]

I see you are talking about ranked mostly.

 

The thing is that the actual gameplay at higher levels or otherwise ranked you are talking about is played by maybe 20 procent of the population that play this game and that's a fair big number I think I am giving here.

 

I am not sure if alot of "New mmo players" that enter this game would roll a healer if they made a healer harder to play and if Bioware considers about these mechanics to keep more players.

 

BS. Scoundrel/operative healers are simply unstoppable and this has to have an end now. Sorc healers are far from being unstoppable and you still see many around. Not 4-5 per team like scoundrel, of course. But that's too many anyway.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Cretinus

[Jorojus]

BS. Scoundrel/operative healers are simply unstoppable and this has to have an end now. Sorc healers are far from being unstoppable and you still see many around. Not 4-5 per team like scoundrel, of course. But that's too many anyway.

 

So what do you suggest to change about the classes healing spec ?

[AlrikFassbauer]

Most I can see here - subjectively - is that those who call others "QQs" and "Whiners" a) use voice chat or b) are Veterans definitively expecting Newbies to know Veteran tactics from day 0 on.

[Mordeguy]

I see you are talking about ranked mostly.

 

The thing is that the actual gameplay at higher levels or otherwise ranked you are talking about is played by maybe 20 procent of the population that play this game and that's a fair big number I think I am giving here.

 

I am not sure if alot of "New mmo players" that enter this game would roll a healer if they made a healer harder to play and if Bioware considers about these mechanics to keep more players.

 

I remember one update f.e. don't remember wich number where nobody wanted to play a healer anymore because ttk was way to short. They fixed that one pretty fast if I remember correctly.

 

Yes, I'm talking about organized play where balance is most needed and noticed. PUGs have way too many random factors to ever actually balance around. Casual pvp is fine in this game, always has been. A few changes to balance around premades isn't going to change that.

[Jorojus]

I played healing on my operative lately. Its indeed fairly easy to stay alive, unless you got two guys on you using interrupts, slows and stun you once you go below 30 procent health. Operatives don't have interrupt immunity abilities like sorcerers do.

 

Ofc, against all the other players that don't use slows, interrupts on the right heal or cc at the right moment its easy to stay alive.

 

I haven't played healing on my operative in ranked since latest patch tough. So can't speak for that. I presume a good team can shut down 2 healers pretty easily if you think of 2 dps on each healer, ofc the enemy team has players too who probably don't want you to kill their healer.

 

Hmm might be hard if they are a good team too.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Jorojus

[BuzzingFridge]

BS. Scoundrel/operative healers are simply unstoppable and this has to have an end now.

 

They are not "unstoppable". L2P, baddie.

[Mordeguy]

I haven't played healing on my operative in ranked since latest patch tough. So can't speak for that. I presume a good team can shut down 2 healers pretty easily if you think of 2 dps on each healer, ofc the enemy team has players too who probably don't want you to kill their healer.

 

Hmm might be hard if they are a good team too.

 

You can't shut down good healers easily. 2 dps on each healer would be nice if not for the fact that their team is keeping those dps off them. They are getting guards, taunts, cross healing and peels. 2 dps won't be enough.

 

Right now people die in voidstar because attackers go all out with 5-6 people focusing on one target where the other team is outnumbered. And yet it can still take significant time to actually kill them even in that "zerg fest" plus more and more teams are starting to turtle with tank/healer (as many as possible) to defend and prevent deaths. People die in huttball because they get left behind for the greater good, are forced to improvise to make a play or get cheesed by fire, healers may be busy keeping the ball carrier alive and have to let a dps die, and LoS can be a pain on that map given it's more movement oriented game style.

 

The problem is the other 3 maps (voidstar too but at least deaths are a bit more common there). Teams get split between nodes into smaller squads which result in stalemates.

 

It's not like every game in rated results in no deaths on either side, but it may as well because the actual objectives cannot be completed in all but huttball in "competitive" games. That would be fine if these were intended to be death matches. But you can't play it as an objective game and a death match at the same time. It's not death match when your team has to split up and both teams rather than focusing on killing are focused on just not dying and giving up positions. The games themselves are not able to be properly played because you simply cannot kill the other team fast enough to accomplish them. You have to crowd control to get anything done. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with that except that it's become the ONLY way. Wiping out the enemy team just doesn't happen unless one team is vastly superior or hopelessly disorganized, but that's not the situation things should be balanced around

 

Things are like this because heals are so powerful at the moment, and one healer is just too difficult to kill. Basically right now to kill a scoundrel healer you need to surprise them with burst when they don't have a guard on, push their tank away and CC him, CC anyone that can CC you and keep the other healer if there is one from healing and cleansing them. It's not easy when the other team is taking measures to make sure something like that doesn't happen. Once all of that happens you better hope you can actually catch the thing. If you don't have an electro net on your team he's going to roll away. Even if he doesn't he's going to mez you, stun you, use defensive CDs, consumables and all the while his heals are still rolling on himself then vanish when applicable. By now his team is back in the battle assuming they were all stuck in CC prior. Electro net is such a nice skill right now because it's really the most stand out way to counter scoundrels. But even with it, it requires clever set up and a bit of good fortune going your way with no guarantee you will manage to kill them still.

 

Any healer should be tough to kill when they are properly supported, but it's kind of insane how difficult it is to kill an operative.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Mordeguy

[Cretinus]

Any healer should be tough to kill when they are properly supported, but it's kind of insane how difficult it is to kill an operative.

 

I would even accept the difficult-to-kill part. But additionally to this, they are also unstoppable. You can have a bunch of DPS on an operative healer and he will not only easily survive, he will also be able to keep healing his mates forever.

 

Operative healers remind me of the times in WoW when heal druids were unstoppable. People would leave the arena before the match had even started, if the opponent had one of these. The druid would simply play for the draw, knowing that nobody would be able to kill him. Such a match would take hours. This wasn't fixed for ages and many PvPers left WoW during this time.

 

I don't see a reason why BW would want to repeat a fail design that costed WoW a number of subs, but as it seems, BW thinks that it's a great idea.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Cretinus

[underjollyroger]

When on my smasher I usually put a lot of pressure on most scoundrel healers, but recently met one that was like chuck norris - he was not guarded and didnt move(!), and while I was smashin, ravaging and force screaming at him (untaunted) he just kept healing himself and his team...could not believe my eyes! Most healers run around, stun you, vanish, but this guy.. healed from cover most of the time and didnt die a single time, although they had no other healer. Looked like some kind of a bugged kolto volcano

[BuzzingFridge]

When on my smasher I usually put a lot of pressure on most scoundrel healers, but recently met one that was like chuck norris - he was not guarded and didnt move(!), and while I was smashin, ravaging and force screaming at him (untaunted) he just kept healing himself and his team...could not believe my eyes! Most healers run around, stun you, vanish, but this guy.. healed from cover most of the time and didnt die a single time, although they had no other healer. Looked like some kind of a bugged kolto volcano

 

He's always going to be able to heal through your damage. The key point is that he was healing himself. He wasn't healing his teammates.