ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Superman_AZ]

Is this akin to "Dual Spec" in WoW or is it more like "I am bored with Power tech, now I will be a sniper"? Cause if it is a Dual spec thing, I could see that being useful. If it is a whole new class, my answer is absolutely not. Last thing we need is a 55 who got bored with DD and decided to become a healer and go run a FP and fall flat on his face without knowing his class.

[Kilora]

Is this akin to "Dual Spec" in WoW or is it more like "I am bored with Power tech, now I will be a sniper"? Cause if it is a Dual spec thing, I could see that being useful. If it is a whole new class, my answer is absolutely not. Last thing we need is a 55 who got bored with DD and decided to become a healer and go run a FP and fall flat on his face without knowing his class.

 

I think that is where some of the concern is.

 

My question -- would people be asking this if we didn't have "Advanced Classes" in name? The 8 classes are separate classes, solely condensed to 4 for story reasons. You only spend 10 levels in this "base" class, but the story is entirely the same.

 

Dual spec is already partially in game. You have the ability to change between the 3 trees as you wish -- though currently, nothing is saved. That is another QoL improvement that people have been asking for. That is a non-issue, as the actual mechanics are already in place.

 

This is people wanting to go from a Sage/Sorc to a Shadow/Assassin, which is closer to wanting to swap from a Warlock to a Rogue in WoW. VERY different playstyles.

[Superman_AZ]

I think that is where some of the concern is.

 

My question -- would people be asking this if we didn't have "Advanced Classes" in name? The 8 classes are separate classes, solely condensed to 4 for story reasons. You only spend 10 levels in this "base" class, but the story is entirely the same.

 

Dual spec is already partially in game. You have the ability to change between the 3 trees as you wish -- though currently, nothing is saved. That is another QoL improvement that people have been asking for. That is a non-issue, as the actual mechanics are already in place.

 

This is people wanting to go from a Sage/Sorc to a Shadow/Assassin, which is closer to wanting to swap from a Warlock to a Rogue in WoW. VERY different playstyles.

 

Thank you for explaining that. If it really is a "Class" changer, and not just a spec changer, then I would have to vote it down. I think it is important to level a class, and know that class when playing it. If someone wants a tank, and a healer, they need to roll one of each. Even in "the other game", few people ever spec their (for example) Paladin as Prot (Tank) / Holy (Heals) as they use completely different gear, glyphs, talents, etc.

 

When the character stops being the class it chose, it is a new character. As a new character, it should remain a new character. Something like this could greatly undervalue the need of other players and would almost guarantee those who run FPs now, might not be needed in the future once the FP team can just switch on a whim. Balance would be thrown, and not for the betterment of the game.

[LordArtemis]

The switch can be allowed when you conclude your storyline. This will give you plenty of time (around 5 to 7 levels to cap) to learn the new Advanced Class.

 

Also, A maximum of 2 changes would be allowed before you are locked out, with a 30 day cooldown. Every change would cost you to lose levels to the point you were at when you made the initial change or level 50, whichever is lower.

 

The cost would be only in CCs and be quite expensive.

 

So, in short...

1) Allowed maximum of two changes of AC

2) Change allowed after you conclude your storyline quests

3) Change has 30 day cooldown

4) Change demotes you to either the level you initiated first change or level 50, whichever is lower

 

Other than "choice should mean something" this should take care of most other concerns.

[Spatology]

This idea only promotes more confusion and promote's sloth.

 

If you want a character of another class, level it up. Those 1-50 levels arent just there for show and fodder. They help people figure out their role and, hopefully, people figure out all the tools they need to begin the elder game content.

[Jeweledleah]

Thank you for explaining that. If it really is a "Class" changer, and not just a spec changer, then I would have to vote it down. I think it is important to level a class, and know that class when playing it. If someone wants a tank, and a healer, they need to roll one of each. Even in "the other game", few people ever spec their (for example) Paladin as Prot (Tank) / Holy (Heals) as they use completely different gear, glyphs, talents, etc.

 

When the character stops being the class it chose, it is a new character. As a new character, it should remain a new character. Something like this could greatly undervalue the need of other players and would almost guarantee those who run FPs now, might not be needed in the future once the FP team can just switch on a whim. Balance would be thrown, and not for the betterment of the game.

 

I don't know. holy paladin plays AND gears very different from protection paladin, which is also very different from retribution paladin. even though its technically the same class - playstyle is completely different. you don't even use the same main stat (intellect for holy, strength for ret/prot) unlike say sage/shadow who use willpower regardless of AC or tree of choice.

 

so I think comparing to switching from rogue to warlock is comparing apples to oranges.

 

that said. its been stated multiple times in this thread , that for a lot of people its not "laziness". its the fact that by rerolling they end up losing possessions etc from their original character that they may not be able to reacquire on a fresh reroll.

 

having people stuck in the same AC doesn't guarantee that they actually know how to play it. I could hypothetically (hypothetically for me anyways, this is the reality for a lot of other players) level as madness sorcerer and then switch to healing at level cap and i will have ZERO experience in what to do. in practice, i recently decided to play around with dps specs on my sorcerer (whom I leveled as a healer) and I was pretty lost at first. even without switching AC's

 

I've also mentioned that sometimes you might think you'll enjoy something and then you realize that you don't, after playing class for a while, be it max level, or somewhere in the middle. even if you are rolling a mirror class on the opposite faction, you might still not have the same experience (case in point - I have a vanguard and powertech. i have a LOT more fun with powertech, because of how the animations look. its technically identical playstyle. they are both tanks. but powertech feels like more fun)

 

now personally, I wouldn't want AC switch to be easy and common. but denying people second chance at all out of some notion of.. I'm not even sure what to name it and stay polite. isn't it a bit.. spiteful?

[Kilora]

I don't know. holy paladin plays AND gears very different from protection paladin, which is also very different from retribution paladin. even though its technically the same class - playstyle is completely different. you don't even use the same main stat (intellect for holy, strength for ret/prot) unlike say sage/shadow who use willpower regardless of AC or tree of choice.

 

so I think comparing to switching from rogue to warlock is comparing apples to oranges.

 

I have to disagree. I don't think sharing one stat is enough of a reason to say they aren't vastly different.

 

Assasins can tank -- so the gear a tank would use is very different than what a healer would use.

 

I was more focused on -- playstyle is completely different.

Sage = ranged DPS with 500+ Force (closer to warlock Mana)

Shadow = melee DPS or tank with 100 Force (closer to a rogues energy)

 

Sages use a self-damaging mechanic to regen mana, like warlocks.

Shadows rely on talents to increase normal mana regen, like rogues.

 

While they share a few spells -- having someone go from Assassin to Sorc (Shadow to Sage) is nowhere near as simple as having someone go from Healing Sorc/Sage to DPS Sorc/Sage.

[Icebergy]

I don't know. holy paladin plays AND gears very different from protection paladin, which is also very different from retribution paladin. even though its technically the same class - playstyle is completely different. you don't even use the same main stat (intellect for holy, strength for ret/prot)

 

Except you are still a paladin. You still have the same class mechanics, class buffs, resources, etc. Can you say the same about a sage and a shadow?

[Tachenko_Yuri]

no!

 

Got enough idiots who can't use their own single class, let alone giving them another one.

 

no,no,no ! D:

[LordArtemis]

There is no reason to call people names simply because you do not agree with a suggestion.

[Jeweledleah]

Except you are still a paladin. You still have the same class mechanics, class buffs, resources, etc. Can you say the same about a sage and a shadow?

 

more so than the paladin. I definitely cannot say that about the paladin. or druid. or even priest. heck even pure dps classes depending on spec can play very VERY differently

 

healing mechanics are different from tanking mechanics, are different from dps (retribution) mechanics. even your buffs are actually different, seals you use, prefered buff, how you utilize holy power. you are definitely using a different main stat. the only one who has to worry about mana (force) is holy pally. you use different weapons. differently.

 

I have couple of abilities in common and its all heavy armor, but that's about it.

 

sage and shadow have the same resource pool - force. some of the abilities are shared. you are definitely using the same main stat. you don't even have a different stance/cell/cylinder (you'd be closer if you compared bounty hunter/trooper to a paladin, not consular/inquisitor). same armor rating. same exact story with same exact companions, same exact starting area, etc. etc.

 

the main difference is that there's a lot more flexibility in playstyle when it comes to sage/shadow even within the same advanced class, unlike WoW that pretty much specs characters for you nowadays - they just offer more characters to chose from with variety of presets.

 

you worry that change of AC will result in people who don't understand how to play their new spec. but this already happens. because there are significant differences between playstyles of the 3 different trees within the same advanced class. especially when the difference is not just "which methods do you use to kill that thing" you get with snipers/gunslingers or sentinels/marauders, but do you smash faces, or do you keep those faces alive.

you worry that it will result in people wearing inappropriate gear. but again, this already happens. hell, if they are using their proper main stats, they are ahead of the game (yes, I've been seeing people at max level, using wrong main stats for their class and when I say wrong I mean something like gunslinger using aim)

AC will not change any of the above. what it will do is give people who may be attached to the character but not the playstyle an opportunity to enjoy their characters again.

[Kilora]

sage and shadow have the same resource pool - force. some of the abilities are shared. you are definitely using the same main stat. you don't even have a different stance/cell/cylinder (you'd be closer if you compared bounty hunter/trooper to a paladin, not consular/inquisitor). same armor rating. same exact story with same exact companions, same exact starting area, etc. etc.

 

 

This first sentence is wrong.

 

Yes, you have force. But Assassin force is much closer to Operative energy. They are capped at 100 force, and constantly regen like Operatives (but with no tiered regen speeds).

 

Sorcs have 500-600 Force, and regen using a self-damaging mechanic.

 

My first toon, and current main, is a sorc. I'm currently leveling an assassin -- and they are vastly different. I would consider them two separate classes.

[Jeweledleah]

This first sentence is wrong.

 

Yes, you have force. But Assassin force is much closer to Operative energy. They are capped at 100 force, and constantly regen like Operatives (but with no tiered regen speeds).

 

Sorcs have 500-600 Force, and regen using a self-damaging mechanic.

 

My first toon, and current main, is a sorc. I'm currently leveling an assassin -- and they are vastly different. I would consider them two separate classes.

 

fair point, exact mechanic of how it works is slightly different and yes sorc and assassin play differently. however - since original example involved WoW's paladin - so does holy, vs, retribution, vs protection. I have a sorc (my main) I've been leveling baby assassin recently (who I'm actually liking more than shadow even if its technically the same class :/ ) one of my earliest characters in WoW was a paladin whom I played in all 3 roles. the name of the resource, even if its used differently? is the same - for both examples. so... semantics?

 

in both cases - play style is different. whether different trees within the same advanced class, or different advanced classes - playstyle is different. you have to learn and practice each one. whether its on the same character or several different characters.

 

so honestly, to me at least it comes down to attachment to specific character and in TOR - this attachment is a lot more encouraged by the game, due to personal story and the fact that some things are not shared through legacy/collections.

 

let me put it to you this way. its much more doable for me to recreate my character in WoW as a different class, but keep her or him otherwise the same, then it is in SWTOR. especially since I even get to keep like 99% of the titles and mounts and pets that are no longer available, on each new character.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[branmakmuffin]

This decision is permanent, so choose wisely.

It's only permanent now because that's how the game works now, not because it's an irrevocable law of the universe. Your attitude is just "I oppose change just because I don't like change."

 

Simple solution: if it were offered and you didn't like it, you wouldn't have to use it. Stop obsessing about how other people want to play their game when it has no impact on you.

 

This idea only promotes more confusion and promote's sloth.

 

If you want a character of another class, level it up. Those 1-50 levels arent just there for show and fodder. They help people figure out their role and, hopefully, people figure out all the tools they need to begin the elder game content.

What's it to you how "slothful" people are? Mind your own business.

Edited May 29, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Kilora]

fair point, exact mechanic of how it works is slightly different and yes sorc and assassin play differently. however - since original example involved WoW's paladin - so does holy, vs, retribution, vs protection. I have a sorc (my main) I've been leveling baby assassin recently (who I'm actually liking more than shadow even if its technically the same class :/ ) one of my earliest characters in WoW was a paladin whom I played in all 3 roles. the name of the resource, even if its used differently? is the same - for both examples. so... semantics?

 

in both cases - play style is different. whether different trees within the same advanced class, or different advanced classes - playstyle is different. you have to learn and practice each one. whether its on the same character or several different characters.

 

So, since we're using WoW as an example. Would you be ok with some class changes there? Warlock to Mage, Priest to Mage, Priest to Warlock? Since they use roughly the same resource pool, and the same stats?

 

I personally see more negatives than positives to this. But, I'm also not going to scream about BW implementing it, because clearly others want it. But arguing that the classes are close enough is NOT the way to do it -- it just shows ignorance of how the classes work.

 

As far as Titles/Pets/Mounts etc -- I kind-of see your point. But, I have 3 characters I play regularly -- so I'll have to deal with this no matter what.

 

I haven't seen a single other game allow anything like this -- so I honestly have no idea what will happen if/when it is implemented.

[Superman_AZ]

I haven't seen a single other game allow anything like this -- so I honestly have no idea what will happen if/when it is implemented.

 

I never played, I only heard, but didn't Runes of Magic or RIFT have something similar where you were actually multi-class, not multispec?

[branmakmuffin]

I never played, I only heard, but didn't Runes of Magic or RIFT have something similar where you were actually multi-class, not multispec?

Multi-classing in DDO, if you wanna talk mult-classing. You can freely mix up to three different classes, I believe.

Edited May 29, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Jeweledleah]

So, since we're using WoW as an example. Would you be ok with some class changes there? Warlock to Mage, Priest to Mage, Priest to Warlock? Since they use roughly the same resource pool, and the same stats?

 

I personally see more negatives than positives to this. But, I'm also not going to scream about BW implementing it, because clearly others want it. But arguing that the classes are close enough is NOT the way to do it -- it just shows ignorance of how the classes work.

 

As far as Titles/Pets/Mounts etc -- I kind-of see your point. But, I have 3 characters I play regularly -- so I'll have to deal with this no matter what.

 

I haven't seen a single other game allow anything like this -- so I honestly have no idea what will happen if/when it is implemented.

 

I'm actually arguing quite the opposite, that classes are already very different even within the same advanced spec, so using people's inability to play new class as an excuse not to implement it is a flimzy one as far as reasons go.

 

would I be ok if WoW allowed switching, say, from warlock to priest? considering that my shadow priest plays more similarly to affliction warlock then she does to holy priest? /shrug. I don't have a problem with it.

 

it WoW, there's not as much demand for it, because leveling new alt is much MUCH quicker, achievements (including rare/extinct pets and mounts - as my baby monk, running around with olympic pvp dragon you will attest to - dragon that was only available to get for a short period of time years ago, while this monk was created this year.) are shared, and there is no personal story attached to the character other than the one you make up in your own head.

 

see, the thing about TOR, at least part of the reason why its different here is because while not everyone, but at least some people may chose to play the class not for mechanics but rather for a specific story attached to that class. you don't get to chose advanced class until you get off starter planet (where most people just use whatever they have) so you still don't really have the full picture up close and personal.

 

I do actually agree that from technical standpoint sage and shadow are a different class. but its made murky, because you chose it as a specialization rather than at character creation and because of personal stories.

 

and the thing is, I myself wouldn't even use it. I may have, before I rerolled my assassin as a sage, but at this point - its too late. and just not worth it for a single pet, since I already invested even more credits etc into new character, then I did into old. but I don't want to begrudge the opportunity to other people.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[bryancuster]

please BW/EA never do this

[Ratajack]

Many of us came over because we may have been huge KOTOR fans or just happen to love Star Wars and had NO IDEA how classes worked, because we never played a MMO....

 

12 toons later, I do and I also love to tank, but early on I made a bunch of non tanks on the Pub side, MANY made mistakes not knowing any better... Just because you know the classes heading in, does not mean we all did or should have known.

 

This game brought in MANY people that never played a MMO, and them changing their AC will have ZERO affect on your game play, but will greatly enhance theirs.

 

I want my sentinel to be a guardian, whats the big deal??? Stop trying to ruin the fun others may have.... Im not making toon 13, so until AC changes happen, I wont even touch the Pub side, all DPS toons and I am only asking for 1 to be changed.....

 

so again, how does this affect you?

 

That question has been answered many times with many different answers, yet many of those who wish to change class choose to ignore these answers, choosing instead to spout the same "I want it and it doesn't affect you, so I should have it" rhetoric despite the fact that it does affect us if a player can change class.

 

If you choose not to make character 13, then that is your choice, but to expect to be able to change class because you refuse to put the effort into leveling a tank on the pub side is unreasonable, IMO.

[Ottoattack]

Having more choice is never a bad thing in any game.

 

Exactly. Why is having the option out there a bad thing? If you do not like it do not use it.

[LordArtemis]

The answers given, however, have amounted to...

 

Choices should matter

It would cause confusion

It would cause problems with FOTM

Classes are not similar enough to allow such drastic changes

It would cause players to not know how to play their class

 

I may have missed a few...

 

All reasonable contentions IMO, but frankly every point was answered with a counterpoint that also seemed reasonable....

 

Choices do not matter any more

There would be no confusion

Problem with FOTM already exists

Classes are too similar AC wise to not allow it

Losing levels would allow players to learn

 

The thing is there are reasonable pros and cons on both sides. There is no reason to paint one side unreasonable or petty simply because you do not agree with it. Far too many sensible posts have been made pro and con...though some folks have made silly contentions for or against it seems most have presented good arguments.

 

When you argue that your opponents arguments are petty often times your argument tends to join that group.

[branmakmuffin]

I believe a few people have made RP-related arguments against AC change. If that's true, this is a completely ridiculous argument because class, basic or advanced, has nothing to do with RP (other than it'd be hard to RP being a Sith or a Jedi if the character does not have the ability to at least activate a light saber).

[Cyberwoman]

Hmm . . . not sure if I personally like the idea. I mean, one of the joys of this game for me is how much re-playability there is in the journey to endgame. I am currently playing through the class-stories again with some of my favorite classes and it has been been great fun exploring a different side to the story whilst also playing a new type of class. I kinda wish the class stories changed depending on your AC.

 

Is the fact that people simply don't want to level another character the reason for this? This feels a bit like asking for instant-endgame characters. It would be a shame if that is the driving force behind this, because they are missing out. Anyway, that's just my opinion. If people want to pay money to do so then they should be able to. I cant see how it really effects us who prefer to make a character of each class anyway!

Edited May 30, 2013 by Cyberwoman

[Ratajack]

The answers given, however, have amounted to...

 

Choices should matter

It would cause confusion

It would cause problems with FOTM

Classes are not similar enough to allow such drastic changes

It would cause players to not know how to play their class

 

I may have missed a few...

 

All reasonable contentions IMO, but frankly every point was answered with a counterpoint that also seemed reasonable....

 

Choices do not matter any more

There would be no confusion

Problem with FOTM already exists

Classes are too similar AC wise to not allow it

Losing levels would allow players to learn

 

The thing is there are reasonable pros and cons on both sides. There is no reason to paint one side unreasonable or petty simply because you do not agree with it. Far too many sensible posts have been made pro and con...though some folks have made silly contentions for or against it seems most have presented good arguments.

 

When you argue that your opponents arguments are petty often times your argument tends to join that group.

 

While some have made reasonable points as to why they should be allowed to change class, do you really think "I refuse to put the effort into leveling another character" ranks among those reasonable points?