ETA on Advanced Class change?

[LordArtemis]

A good questionnaire posted by Chimex...ill chime in.

 

 

1) Why do you want it?

 

I'm on the fence. It would be nice to be able to change my low level smuggler (just chose the wrong AC) and not lose my gear, trained skills (which were expensive, etc), but at the same time I'm a bit concerned about the effect it may have on the game overall. I'm not really keen on late game AC change at this point.

 

2) What practical purpose does this serve?

 

Well, as I mentioned...an early AC change allows folks to change a bad choice or mistake. Early on it has little to no impact on the game IMO. I favor this option if any.

 

3) What limitations (if any) do you consider as reasonable?

 

I think it should be limited to the early game, say in the first 5 levels after you choose the AC. Only two changes should be allowed IMO...one change within 5 levels and one more within 5 more levels or 7 days, whichever is longer.

 

4) Seeing as AC choices are currently permanent, what have been your work arounds for this?

 

I left the character at his low level since almost a year ago. I simply made him a crafter instead, he doesn't even have his ship yet if I remember right. He is stuck on Coruscant..

Edited June 10, 2013 by LordArtemis

[branmakmuffin]

Really? Cause right now there's no "magically change my class completely" button currently.

Yes people are bad now, but this will just increase it exponentially.

It must be nice to be able to read the future, Nostradamus.

[Icebergy]

I think it should be limited to the early game, say in the first 5 levels after you choose the AC. Only two changes should be allowed IMO...one change within 5 levels and one more within 5 more levels or 7 days, whichever is longer.

 

As I stated earlier, this is the only way I would be OK with class changes. However with the number of times you are told "YOUR CHOICE IS PERMANENT" I really don't think it is necessary.

[LordArtemis]

As I stated earlier, this is the only way I would be OK with class changes. However with the number of times you are told "YOUR CHOICE IS PERMANENT" I really don't think it is necessary.

 

I get that. Telling me the choice was permanent was fine. What they didn't tell me is that the AC sucked. Had I known that I would have chosen another.

 

That's kind of important to know before I choose. Unfortunately the information out there about the AC was 100% pure bull beefcake. So I had no warning. Hence why I said it would be nice...but not necessary.

[Ratajack]

So it's ok for a Paladin to go from a tank to a healer to a dps, but if I wanted to do that on my Trooper it's not ok?

 

The devs have stated multiple times that the different AC's are different classes, and that they were intentionally designed so that no one character could fill all three roles.

 

They started with a basic class which branches off into two separate and distinct classes so that they did not have to invest in the additional costs for the additional 8 story lines, 4 for imperial and 4 for republic. That does invalidate the AC's being different classes.

[Ratajack]

K lets use WoW analogy. I make a warrior right? I get to level 10 I pick Fury as my spec. I get certain abilities from being Fury, then I get some points to put in a tree where I want. Why is that any different then picking a Sentinel getting certain abilities for it, then putting points in the tree where I want. Then lets say as a warrior, I want to go Protection, I talk to my WARRIOR trainer and respec get new abilities then put points elsewhere. Why can't I do this in SWTOR?

 

 

You can do this in SWTOR. You can choose to change your spec WITHIN a given class. You are not locked into a spec, but you are locked into a CLASS.

[LordArtemis]

Id like to make one more point.

 

I think the contention that people would become terrible players is pretty ludicrous. This is my experience.

 

I hit 50 on my Sorc. Other than running a few heroics with a group I leveled solo, healer spec. It was brutal but I made it. I enjoyed the challenge.

 

Then I gave flashpoints a try and learned a very real fact...I did not know how to play my class, period. It was bad. I mean REAL bad. I was shocked. Playing in flashpoints with a group is NOTHING like soloing...you would think if I had anything besides cement between my ears I would have realized that before hand.

 

Now I am 55. I have run...oh...10 or 12 flashpoints. And I learned how to play my class...no recent complaints.

 

How in the world can I run all the way to 50, not know how to play my class, and learn how to in 5 levels?

 

BECAUSE IT ISNT DIFFICULT TO DO SO.

 

So, ok, maybe this was a fluke...so I asked around...turns out most solo folks I talked to had EXACTLY THE SAME SITUATION AND RESULTS...imagine that.

 

Lets see...optimal rotation, do not stand in fire, heal tank/dps/self in that order, keep up bubbles, do not bubble those that do not take damage, watch rotation and energy levels, avoid agro...all checks.

 

The problem is this...it is not difficult to learn how to play your class in this game. It is not difficult to properly gear your toon in this game. If you are a bad player it is because you are a bad player and probably do not want to be a good player...which is fine....

 

But AC change will not make players bad. Bad players are bad, period. No change will increase or decrease that.

 

I believe it is mostly a choice.

[Ratajack]

people were also saying switching races would ruin the game, and did it?

 

Race changes are purely cosmetic. Class changes are a change of fundamental mechanics. There is a difference. The difference does not disappear simply because you refuse to see it,.

[Khevar]

Id like to make one more point.

 

I think the contention that people would become terrible players is pretty ludicrous. This is my experience.

 

...

The issue isn't that changing AC would make terrible players.

 

From my perspective, changing AC opens the door to these things:

 

1. It would potentially increase gear drop QQ as players would be needing for "opposite AC"

2. It would reduce the time people would spend leveling characters, potentially leading people to unsub quicker.

3. It would potentially exacerbate the FOTM situation whenever BW makes a mistake in PvP class balance.

 

The idea that "you leveled as a Sage and would have no idea how to Shadow Tank" is a silly argument to me. Leveling as a Commando dps I had no idea how to heal. Going from Commando dps to Commando heals is about the same level of difficulty as going from Commando dps to Vanguard tank.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Khevar

[Ratajack]

no, its the class.http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes

READ THE CLASSES.

 

Read this:

 

Hey folks,

 

Please be sure to read the Community Blog section, where weekly Q&As are posted. The one from February 10th answers this question:

 

 

Quote:

Aurozia: Will there be a dual specialization system in the future? Will there be a possibility of changing advance classes as well?

 

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.

 

 

 

You may find the full Q&A here and the discussion thread here. Check back on Friday to see what questions were selected this week!

 

Please also remember that our Developer Tracker is a great way to find out what the developers are posting!

[LordArtemis]

Race changes are purely cosmetic. Class changes are a change of fundamental mechanics. There is a difference. The difference does not disappear simply because you refuse to see it,.

 

....and yet the arguments were similar. In all fairness many of the reasons given here as to why it would be bad were given for almost every change since launch against those changes.

 

Choices matter, not by design, make players bad, players are lazy and should not be catered to, etc....

 

Most of the reasons given pro and con seem ludicrous to me. A few pro and cons however make sense, at least from my perspective.

 

Pro

 

People do not know what an AC is like until they play it.

People invest far more than simple levels in a character, so it's not always easy to reroll.

People generally prefer choice.

Players that have chosen to ignore rolled characters may choose to take them back up and level them.

May allow players to give another AC a try instead of giving up on the class or role all together.

 

Con

 

Could cause certain classes to become underrepresented in the game.

Could cause certain classes to not receive the same support from the community that they do now.

Could cause players to be less invested in learning how to play certain roles well.

Could cause players to play less since they would not need to reroll.

Could cause players to change classes on a whim based on nerfs causing abuse of the feature.

 

Almost ever other reason posed other than those above are pretty much ridiculous IMO. I will list just a few of the more obtuse ones from both sides....

 

Pro

 

Player will leave if it is not allowed.

It will ruin the game if not allowed.

It would have no impact on the game whatsoever.

It will not effect other players in any way.

It is definitely going to happen.

AC was never designed to be a permanent choice/it is not a distinct class.

 

Con

 

Players are lazy and should not be catered to.

Choices matter/Not designed that way/Never will happen.

Players will leave if it is allowed.

It will ruin the game if it is allowed.

It will make players bad players.

It is P2W.

Edited June 10, 2013 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

Read this:

 

That was from Feb 2012 BTW. If you making the point that AC is a class, that's fine.

 

If your trying to contend that AC changes will not happen, you already know that is not in stone any longer.

 

This is from November 2012. A bit more recent.

 

I think it makes more sense to read THAT. There have been plenty of things that have changed that the original dev staff indicated were either not possible, against the design intent of the game or simply would never happen.

 

It seems almost anything is on the table now, as it should be.

Edited June 10, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Ratajack]

It's better then PEOPLE actually disappearing from end game. But seriously, I dont think we would see any advance classes disappear from end game, but who knows.

 

Ok. Let's look at this logically, although I know logic has no place in these forums and that some people refuse to acknowledge logic if it doesn't mesh with what they want.

 

Hypothetically:

 

The sniper does massive DPS, while the operative is sub par in the dps department, being more suited to the role of healer. The sorcerer is the best AOE healer in the game, and the mercenary is the best single target healer in the game. Do you honestly think any group is going to take a player playing a sub par DPS and sub par healing class into endgame content, or rated WZ's?

 

Allowing AC changes would absolutely lead to FOTM jumping, even if they allowed it with "restrictions". The first time someone new AC gets nerfed, they will be back here asking for more AC changes. To find proof of this, all you have to do is read this very thread full of layers who want to change class, even after they were ALL told many times that their choice was PERMANENT.

[LordArtemis]

Ok. Let's look at this logically, although I know logic has no place in these forums and that some people refuse to acknowledge logic if it doesn't mesh with what they want.

 

Hypothetically:

 

The sniper does massive DPS, while the operative is sub par in the dps department, being more suited to the role of healer. The sorcerer is the best AOE healer in the game, and the mercenary is the best single target healer in the game. Do you honestly think any group is going to take a player playing a sub par DPS and sub par healing class into endgame content, or rated WZ's?

 

Allowing AC changes would absolutely lead to FOTM jumping, even if they allowed it with "restrictions". The first time someone new AC gets nerfed, they will be back here asking for more AC changes. To find proof of this, all you have to do is read this very thread full of layers who want to change class, even after they were ALL told many times that their choice was PERMANENT.

 

There are plenty of examples of players not asking for more when the majority were satisfied.

 

Not to mention the fact that players do not take sub par healers or dps into endgame content NOW.

[LordArtemis]

The issue isn't that changing AC would make terrible players.

 

From my perspective, changing AC opens the door to these things:

 

1. It would potentially increase gear drop QQ as players would be needing for "opposite AC"

2. It would reduce the time people would spend leveling characters, potentially leading people to unsub quicker.

3. It would potentially exacerbate the FOTM situation whenever BW makes a mistake in PvP class balance.

 

The idea that "you leveled as a Sage and would have no idea how to Shadow Tank" is a silly argument to me. Leveling as a Commando dps I had no idea how to heal. Going from Commando dps to Commando heals is about the same level of difficulty as going from Commando dps to Vanguard tank.

 

I dont agree with the first point. That problem exists now and I don't think allowing AC change would increase or decrease it.

 

I do however think that the second and third reason you gave have merit and will add them to the list.

[Ratajack]

That was from Feb 2012 BTW. If you making the point that AC is a class, that's fine.

 

If your trying to contend that AC changes will not happen, you already know that is not in stone any longer.

 

This is from November 2012. A bit more recent.

 

I think it makes more sense to read THAT. There have been plenty of things that have changed that the original dev staff indicated were either not possible, against the design intent of the game or simply would never happen.

 

It seems almost anything is on the table now, as it should be.

 

That post was directed solely at the AC's being different classes, by the devs own words. That is something they have NEVER changed their stance regarding, to the best of my knowledge.

 

We both know that we have differing opinions as to the reasoning behind that "likely happen" quote that keeps being thrown around. Until we see something further from the devs regarding class changes, I have no reason to second guess my interpretation. If the devs were truly serious about allowing class changes, I would expect that we would have heard a whisper, at least, by now.

 

They may prove me wrong and actually implement it at some point in time, but once implemented, it cannot be easily removed and those players who unsub will not come back as long as class changes are allowed. Make no mistake, there will be players who will unsub if they allow class changes. The only questions are: how many and will the revenue generated by one time costs for class changes be enough to offset the loss of revenue from subs?

[Ratajack]

There are plenty of examples of players not asking for more when the majority were satisfied.

 

Not to mention the fact that players do not take sub par healers or dps into endgame content NOW.

 

As to your first point, there are many more examples of players asking for or demanding more even when they receive what they wanted. Just look at the outcry about server transfers. People demanded server transfers. They will be implemented. That is not enough for the people. Now they are demanding that they be free or legacy transfers.

 

They got exactly what they asked BW to give them, the ability to change servers. Was this enough? Obviously not.

 

As I said, no matter what restrictions are put in place, there will be people here on the forums demanding those restrictions be lifted or that BW be more flexible. Sometimes it is better not give that mouse his cookie.

 

 

Your second point does have some merit, but at least those operatives still exist and are not disappearing to become snipers.

[LordArtemis]

That post was directed solely at the AC's being different classes, by the devs own words. That is something they have NEVER changed their stance regarding, to the best of my knowledge.

 

We both know that we have differing opinions as to the reasoning behind that "likely happen" quote that keeps being thrown around. Until we see something further from the devs regarding class changes, I have no reason to second guess my interpretation. If the devs were truly serious about allowing class changes, I would expect that we would have heard a whisper, at least, by now.

 

They may prove me wrong and actually implement it at some point in time, but once implemented, it cannot be easily removed and those players who unsub will not come back as long as class changes are allowed. Make no mistake, there will be players who will unsub if they allow class changes. The only questions are: how many and will the revenue generated by one time costs for class changes be enough to offset the loss of revenue from subs?

 

 

As to your first point, there are many more examples of players asking for or demanding more even when they receive what they wanted. Just look at the outcry about server transfers. People demanded server transfers. They will be implemented. That is not enough for the people. Now they are demanding that they be free or legacy transfers.

 

They got exactly what they asked BW to give them, the ability to change servers. Was this enough? Obviously not.

 

As I said, no matter what restrictions are put in place, there will be people here on the forums demanding those restrictions be lifted or that BW be more flexible. Sometimes it is better not give that mouse his cookie.

 

 

Your second point does have some merit, but at least those operatives still exist and are not disappearing to become snipers.

 

I respect your opinion on both points, and though I may not agree on some of the contentions you make I can't argue against the validity of your points, nor can I state that you are wrong in any absolute way.

 

I feel you are absolutely correct that that comment can be interpreted in many ways, ways not necessarily without merit. I would only question the validity of using verbatim quotes to prove the intent that they never want AC change, but to dismiss verbatim quotes as doublespeak or lip service that contradict that view, especially ones that are more recent. But I can't say that other interpretations of the recent quote do not have merit. It would be silly for me to do so.

 

To the second point I think examples exist for both...you can't please everyone and someone will always complain about a free lunch...but examples exist to both prove and disprove the idea that players can be satisfied. Using the idea that they MAY NOT be satisfied as a reason to not allow it does not make sense IMO.

 

Note, however, I do think there are many valid reasons not to allow it and listed them in a prior post.

[branmakmuffin]

As I stated earlier, this is the only way I would be OK with class changes. However with the number of times you are told "YOUR CHOICE IS PERMANENT" I really don't think it is necessary.

If they made it so you could change it, it wouldn't be permanent, would it?

[Ratajack]

I respect your opinion on both points, and though I may not agree on some of the contentions you make I can't argue against the validity of your points, nor can I state that you are wrong in any absolute way.

 

I feel you are absolutely correct that that comment can be interpreted in many ways, ways not necessarily without merit. I would only question the validity of using verbatim quotes to prove the intent that they never want AC change, but to dismiss verbatim quotes as doublespeak or lip service that contradict that view, especially ones that are more recent. But I can't say that other interpretations of the recent quote do not have merit. It would be silly for me to do so.

 

To the second point I think examples exist for both...you can't please everyone and someone will always complain about a free lunch...but examples exist to both prove and disprove the idea that players can be satisfied. Using the idea that they MAY NOT be satisfied as a reason to not allow it does not make sense IMO.

 

Note, however, I do think there are many valid reasons not to allow it and listed them in a prior post.

 

I am using the earlier quote solely to back up my claim that the AC's are different classes. This is something that the devs have stated. The devs have never given any indication that they have changed their minds about this fact.

 

I am not using an earlier quote verbatim as proof that they will not allow class changes while dismissing the more recent quote. That said, the earlier statement and my interpretation of the more recent statement do tend to support each other. That does not mean my interpretation is correct, only that the more recent statement is not conclusive proof that the devs have really changed their minds about allowing class changes.

[Ratajack]

If they made it so you could change it, it wouldn't be permanent, would it?

 

EXACTLY.

 

I'm glad you understand that you made a PERMANENT choice and now you want to make it non-permanent.

 

You and every other player were told many times that your choice was PERMANENT. I see no reason for the devs to change this.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Ratajack

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

It must be nice to be able to read the future, Nostradamus.

 

It's great, each book is a magical adventure.

 

Butterfly in the sky..... I can fly twice as high....

 

Oh and my name's not Nostradamus,.it's Jeff.

[PeterTLJr]

Ok. Let's look at this logically, although I know logic has no place in these forums and that some people refuse to acknowledge logic if it doesn't mesh with what they want.

 

Hypothetically:

 

The sniper does massive DPS, while the operative is sub par in the dps department, being more suited to the role of healer. The sorcerer is the best AOE healer in the game, and the mercenary is the best single target healer in the game. Do you honestly think any group is going to take a player playing a sub par DPS and sub par healing class into endgame content, or rated WZ's?

 

Allowing AC changes would absolutely lead to FOTM jumping, even if they allowed it with "restrictions". The first time someone new AC gets nerfed, they will be back here asking for more AC changes. To find proof of this, all you have to do is read this very thread full of layers who want to change class, even after they were ALL told many times that their choice was PERMANENT.

 

I agree, thats why ive said there should be restrictions on it, to prevent that. As far as people getting on the forums and asking for more AC changing, its no different then the amount of people asking for AC changing now. It might even be less, who knows.

[LordArtemis]

I am using the earlier quote solely to back up my claim that the AC's are different classes. This is something that the devs have stated. The devs have never given any indication that they have changed their minds about this fact.

 

I am not using an earlier quote verbatim as proof that they will not allow class changes while dismissing the more recent quote. That said, the earlier statement and my interpretation of the more recent statement do tend to support each other. That does not mean my interpretation is correct, only that the more recent statement is not conclusive proof that the devs have really changed their minds about allowing class changes.

 

Fair on both points.

 

EXACTLY.

 

I'm glad you understand that you made a PERMANENT choice and now you want to make it non-permanent.

 

You and every other player were told many times that your choice was PERMANENT. I see no reason for the devs to change this.

 

As long as you are willing to concede two things....

 

1) Many things that they refused to change, indicated it was contrary to design intent or said would NEVER change (like character appearance change after creation and cross class armor appearance) have, in fact, changed.

 

2) There are more than a few that do see reasons for the devs to change this and they are not necessarily unreasonable in their contentions, though you still oppose the idea for stated reasons.

Edited June 10, 2013 by LordArtemis

[spectreclees]

I like how my post was ignored. Trooper is your Class Quest Class, it is not your class. The only thing Trooper does is identify you for your class story and how the galaxy sees you.

 

Vanguard is your class. Commando is your class.