ETA on Advanced Class change?

[waterboytkd]

You realize all of your points here support allowing the purchase of level 55 toons, right? I mean, you only skip leveling, not end game. If people have money to make things easier, that's just life, isn't it? And if you want to differentiate the whole class story thing, then why not just allow people to buy a 55 Jugg if they already have a 55 Mara?

 

Now you've disregarded my previous comment. By buying a 55, you go from 1 level 55 toon, to 2 level 55 toons. That comes with all kinds of benefits and perks outside of simply "respeccing" a character.

 

I mean, honestly, why play the game if you can just pay to get what you want?

 

So...you've never played the NES/SNES without using a game genie? You've never played Dragon Age without taking advantage of the bugs and exploits?

 

People play a game because it's fun, and they enjoy the experience. People want the ability to swap ACs because, for whatever reason, they believe their experience will be better if they were the other AC.

 

I don't even have a strong opinion on this topic, but someone has to point out the flaws in the arguments being made. Every time you make an argument that something should be allowed to be purchased with real life money, it makes the gameplay experience for everyone worse.

 

Huh? Why on earth would me paying for a server transfer make the game worse for someone else? Why would me paying money to change my character's appearance make the game worse for someone else? And, here comes the kicker, why would me changing one of my Marauders to a Juggernaut make the game worse for someone else?

 

The game becomes less like a game and more like an expensive ATM. For those with less time to play, they offer boosts for XP, Valor, Social Points, etc. that can allow those with more money and less time the ability to progress faster, but still have to complete the content to get where they want to be. BW is trying to make money, but if you start offering more than cosmetic enhancements for money, players will start leaving the game.

 

People said level 43 chest pieces would turn the game into P2W and drive people away. Still waiting for that to happen. People said +41 crystals with a min level <50 only available on the CM would turn the game into P2W and drive people away. Still waiting for that to happen, too.

 

There is a line. Offering BiS raid loot on a CM is across that line. I would even say, just using my gut to judge, that 2nd BiS, or even 3rd BiS gear on the CM is acoss that line. Mostly, that's because PvE gear IS the end game, and offering to skip the end game on a CM is a bad plan.

 

All the arguments for not allowing AC swap could be applied to skill points, too. Why let people respec skill points? It's lazy. If they picked the wrong talent, then they should be smarter. Reroll. Each tree plays quite a bit differently than the others. Level up in that tree so you learn it.

 

You get nothing extra for swapping ACs. It's just a respec.

 

If it was feasible for them to do a base class swap (ie Jedi Knight to Trooper), I'd be for that, too. Because it's just a respec. But since there are these really interesting, involved class stories that are character driven and somewhat vital, that's not really on option.

 

ACs don't have that problem. Again, it's just a respec. Nothing is gained.

[branmakmuffin]

Players who do not want to switch their AC do not have to do so. If you do not want to use this option how does it negatively impact you? Obivoulsy, it positively impacts someone else.

As I said before: control freakery. They don't like the idea for themselves, so no one should be able to do it.

[Jadescythe]

Now you've disregarded my previous comment. By buying a 55, you go from 1 level 55 toon, to 2 level 55 toons. That comes with all kinds of benefits and perks outside of simply "respeccing" a character.

 

You've disregarded my argument that those are actually two toons that you have. By having the option to change your Jugg to a Mara, while I have to have both a Jugg and Mara if I cannot afford to swap, you are getting two toons for the price of one. I would make the same argument if respecs weren't free or cost anything other than in-game credits for non-subs.

 

So...you've never played the NES/SNES without using a game genie? You've never played Dragon Age without taking advantage of the bugs and exploits?

 

People play a game because it's fun, and they enjoy the experience. People want the ability to swap ACs because, for whatever reason, they believe their experience will be better if they were the other AC.

 

You can't really compare a solo player game with a multiplayer online game. What I choose to do with a copy of a game that no one else is involved in is completely my decision. In a world where you can impact other players through your play, there are issues. For instance, SWTOR specifically doesn't allow you to use what is basically a game genie while playing this game or you would be banned.

 

Huh? Why on earth would me paying for a server transfer make the game worse for someone else? Why would me paying money to change my character's appearance make the game worse for someone else? And, here comes the kicker, why would me changing one of my Marauders to a Juggernaut make the game worse for someone else?

 

No one small change that BW makes to allow people to pay money for something will ruin the game. The combination will, however. Currently you can pay to transfer toons and, by default, to copy your legacy to any server you want to play on. It gives those with more money a step up in leveling on another server and is very convenient for those who do so. It doesn't hurt anyone, but it begins to fuel resentment between the haves and have-nots. Eventually, there are so many convenient options that those who play for free or only pay a sub will feel alienated and leave if they don't have the money to spend on things.

 

People said level 43 chest pieces would turn the game into P2W and drive people away. Still waiting for that to happen. People said +41 crystals with a min level <50 only available on the CM would turn the game into P2W and drive people away. Still waiting for that to happen, too.

 

There is a line. Offering BiS raid loot on a CM is across that line. I would even say, just using my gut to judge, that 2nd BiS, or even 3rd BiS gear on the CM is acoss that line. Mostly, that's because PvE gear IS the end game, and offering to skip the end game on a CM is a bad plan.

 

The CM color crystals actually are a huge P2W mechanic. If you don't have one, you are at a huge disadvantage to every other player in the game. Now they made them available on the GTN so those with irl money could make more credits, but this is still P2W to have the best stats. There is currently a line, where you have to level up each individual character and can change your specialization at any time for free with a sub or a small in-game credit payment without. You're drawing a new line to include AC changes. Then there's a new line for class changes. Then you just buy what you want in the end.

 

 

All the arguments for not allowing AC swap could be applied to skill points, too. Why let people respec skill points? It's lazy. If they picked the wrong talent, then they should be smarter. Reroll. Each tree plays quite a bit differently than the others. Level up in that tree so you learn it.

 

You get nothing extra for swapping ACs. It's just a respec.

 

If it was feasible for them to do a base class swap (ie Jedi Knight to Trooper), I'd be for that, too. Because it's just a respec. But since there are these really interesting, involved class stories that are character driven and somewhat vital, that's not really on option.

 

ACs don't have that problem. Again, it's just a respec. Nothing is gained.

 

Now we're getting to the part of the argument that no one agrees on. You are of the opinion that it's ok to move the line to include AC changes because respec works fine. Others are of the opinion that the line stops at respecs. I think it has a lot to do with perspective. I know that Raansu is primarily in the PvP forums and from a PvP perspective, the ability to change to a different AC that is stronger in the current meta without having to level it up is P2W. In the realm of RP or PvE or GSF, this change really doesn't have any negative impacts from a gameplay perspective other than level 55s who don't know how to play their class (which we know happens already).

[Aries_cz]

AC =/= classes. There is no disagreement there. But there is a fact that they do use the same base skills. I do not see what would be the problem that you can select which AC you access at a specific time. I understand that you will need to train the skills in the new AC and they may use different MH or OH.

 

The question is, if this available in the game right now, the learning/cost to deal with the switch falls on the player if they elect to switch AC. Players who do not want to switch their AC do not have to do so. If you do not want to use this option how does it negatively impact you? Obivoulsy, it positively impacts someone else.

 

As I said before, they don't really use the basic skills. They have them, but are rarely used (unless you are counting the free shot or focus builder strike). Majority of skills you use are skills of your advanced class and your spec.

 

And it affects the game as a whole in much more than just switching weapons. Say I switch from healing sage to tank shadow. I need completely new set of gear (unlike switching from healing sage to dps sage, where my equipment remains somewhat usable). This could lead to people demanding that all stats are merged into one big pool so that they do not have to get new gear for their switching, and so on and so on (I believe it is called salami method)

[Vhaegrant]

As I said before, they don't really use the basic skills. They have them, but are rarely used (unless you are counting the free shot or focus builder strike). Majority of skills you use are skills of your advanced class and your spec.

My main is a Powertech (Advanced Prototype), I also have a Mercenary (Arsenal) they make extensive use of Rapid Shots (basic free attack), Unload, Rocket Punch, Rail Shot, Flamethrower, Death from Above, Determination, Electro dart (merc has range but effectively the same skill), Energy Shield, Hydraulic Overrides, Chaff Flare, Kolto Overload, Stealth Scan and Thermal Sensor Override.

In fact, their main attack rotation tends to take a couple of skills from the Bounty Hunter ability pool, a couple from the Powertech or Merc pool and then the couple from their chosen Spec.

And it affects the game as a whole in much more than just switching weapons. Say I switch from healing sage to tank shadow. I need completely new set of gear (unlike switching from healing sage to dps sage, where my equipment remains somewhat usable). This could lead to people demanding that all stats are merged into one big pool so that they do not have to get new gear for their switching, and so on and so on (I believe it is called salami method)

Good old Sage to Shadow (Sorcerer to Assassin) swap gets brought into the discussion a lot. But, how is the gear change any different to that required for a Powertech respeccing from Tank to DPS (or DPS to Tank)?

[Ratajack]

This is exactly why I'm in favor of it. Players right now are asked to pick heads or tails at level 10...if they pick "wrong", they need to re-roll. I think that's silly. Allowing an AC swap is nothing more than giving the players the freedom to play a role they want at end-game. It bypasses nothing, as they've already leveled their character. It doesn't give more companions, it doesn't allow them to craft more...it simply allows them to switch to a role that may keep them around longer.

 

How does a player new to WoW know how the class he chooses at CREATION will play at level cap? Can he cry "I didn't know it would be like this. WAH! WAH! WAH!" and change his class? No, he cannot. He must level a new character of the new class he wishes to play.

 

That is exactly how a player can play a new class in this game. One simply has to level that new class.

 

The class you choose at creation in WoW has 3 talent trees (4 for druids). Classes (AC's) in this game each have 3 talent trees. You can change your talent point allocations in WoW. You can change your skill (talent) point allocation in this game.

 

The biggest difference between classes in WoW and classes (AC's) in this game is that in this game you choose your class (AC) at level 10, not at creation.

 

I ask you again, what is the difference between not being able to change your class if you choose it at creation and not being able to change your class if you choose it at level 10?

[Ratajack]

Where you could be wrong is if Bioware made...wait for it...new ACs.

 

We know new classes will never come. At least, not classes that require you to play levels 1-50. I could see new classes if they skipped Homeworld through Corellia completely, starting at level 50 and going straight to Makeb.

 

But new ACs? That's how they make new 'classes'. And if they just dropped 8 new ACs into the game (4 on each side), I imagine a monetized AC switch would make them a boat-load. Plus, it'd renew vigor and interest by giving players something brand new to play around with...all without having to play the same old stories again and again.

 

If and when new AC's are added, then AC swapping may well become a reality. After all, species changes were implemented at around the same time as the introduction of the Cathar race.

 

Until that time, though, I do not expect to see class (AC) changes implemented, given BW's absolute and total silence on the this subject in the almost two years since the infamous "likely happen" statement. Have we seen one gold post or heard one peep to let us know if they are still even on the wall of crazy? No.

[Vhaegrant]

Calling it lazy is a fools errand IMO.

 

My reasons that I am against it are pretty simple, but they are personal. I feel that the AC choice as it stands now is already pretty meaningless, and allowing AC change would make that choice even more meaningless....to the point where ACs are really just fancy containers for spec sets IMO.

I think this is exactly what the Advanced Classes are now, the first step of specialisation. They are meaningful in that they separate out the core healing and tanking abilities that are available to all the specs of an Advanced Class. Even an Arsenal specced Mercenary has access to a couple of self heals, as all Powertech specs have access to using an offhand shield generator and using the taunt abilities. I feel that this is an important balance issue within the design of the game.

However they are certainly not meaningful when it comes to determining the class story line and companion interactions.

I would prefer they go in the opposite direction and actually make the choice meaningful, much like the choice for a base class. There are many ways they could accomplish this...one of the easiest ways could be to simply remove the base class altogether and have you choose your AC at character creation.

 

A few unique missions for your class (which used to be called your advanced class) would help IMO, as well as removing all game references to the old base class. All abilities would now fall under the new class. The story would stay the same.

 

Then, they could rework the specs to have 4 options....heal, DPS, tank and a hybrid line that would unlock when you reach a certain level on one of the three primary specs.

 

That would go a long way toward making the choice meaningful IMO and still offer plenty of variety of choice to players.

That's a whole lot of work to effectively end up at the same point as you have with the Classes as they currently exist.

A Bounty Hunter with the ability to swap between ACs would have access to a Tank spec, a Heal spec a Melee DPS spec and a Ranged DPS spec.

Where it falls short is those Classes where their ACs don't cover all the roles such as the Sith Warrior/ Jedi Knight (Tank and Melee DPS only) and Imperial Agent/ Smuggler (Heal and DPS).

If the majority of players supported the idea of AC change I would begrudgingly live with it. But I would prefer, personally to see it remain as it is. My best case scenario would be to see the design improved.

I would much rather the Devs spent the time developing new content for the existing Classes, adding new species such as Wookiees, Trandoshan or Rodian (I mean this is supposed to be a Star Wars game and let's be honest how much dialogue and romance -two of the main reasons given for not having non-humanoid species in- is going on in PvP ), or a little more love to the guilds (Conquest was much appreciated and has really livened up the guild I'm in) such as banners.

If AC swapping does make it into the game I hope it comes in at the same time as expanding upon the existing ACs available to the current classes. Not only would this serve to eliminate those roles missing from certain classes but it would allow for certain playstyles to be fully implemented (please, a Mando Bounty Hunter that can actually use melee weapons on the hunt, you know like Torian and Akaavi do ). And, it would also put a wider demand for the AC swap function much as species change did with the release of the Cathar.

[waterboytkd]

You've disregarded my argument that those are actually two toons that you have. By having the option to change your Jugg to a Mara, while I have to have both a Jugg and Mara if I cannot afford to swap, you are getting two toons for the price of one. I would make the same argument if respecs weren't free or cost anything other than in-game credits for non-subs.

 

I will concede that AC swapping could allow a person who drops CC like crazy (because you know an AC swap is going to be at least 1000 CC to make any swap a big decision) to bounce between ACs to effectively have both skill sets with only leveling one toon. However, I would argue vehemently that it's "two toons for the price of one." That CC cost is already a major factor. Far more than if you had one toon and didn't do AC swaps.

 

Also, the person who actually leveled 2 toons has an advantage. They can do twice as many crew skills at a time. They can twice as many dailies and weeklies, which, when combined with the presence of legacy gear, means they can gear up an individual toon twice as fast. So again, the person doing AC swaps doesn't have 2 toons. They have 1 toon with the skill sets of two ACs (though, only one AC at a time).

 

You can't really compare a solo player game with a multiplayer online game. What I choose to do with a copy of a game that no one else is involved in is completely my decision. In a world where you can impact other players through your play, there are issues. For instance, SWTOR specifically doesn't allow you to use what is basically a game genie while playing this game or you would be banned.

 

I was not comparing those games to SWTOR. I was showing how, even when a shortcut is present, you don't always take it. Even though you could cheat in Dragon Age to get max level right away, many, if not most, people that played it didn't use the exploit because they enjoy the leveling process as part of the story and game. Whether it has an impact on other players or not was irrelevant to my point, which was: when it comes to enjoying a video game, it's actually quite common for people to skip a shortcut in order to enjoy the ride.

 

No one small change that BW makes to allow people to pay money for something will ruin the game. The combination will, however. Currently you can pay to transfer toons and, by default, to copy your legacy to any server you want to play on. It gives those with more money a step up in leveling on another server and is very convenient for those who do so. It doesn't hurt anyone, but it begins to fuel resentment between the haves and have-nots. Eventually, there are so many convenient options that those who play for free or only pay a sub will feel alienated and leave if they don't have the money to spend on things.

 

I won't disagree here, because I've seen it happen in other hobbies, such as Magic: the Gathering. A kid can't afford to buy the new stuff, gets disillusioned, and leave. But with those hobbies, you can't get the goodies without shelling out money. That's not the case here. It's just easier if you have the discretionary money.

 

Which is truly remarkable. MMO communities can be so strange, because they react to monetization the way they do. No other industry caters to those who can't pay like MMOs. And you'd be hard pressed to find a hobby that's cheaper than an MMO subscription, especially if you didn't pay any extra for CC.

 

The CM color crystals actually are a huge P2W mechanic. If you don't have one, you are at a huge disadvantage to every other player in the game. Now they made them available on the GTN so those with irl money could make more credits, but this is still P2W to have the best stats.

 

I don't see this. You have a slight edge that continues to diminish until it vanishes completely at level 50. Considering that the PvP completely obviates the crystal (bolster, hello!), at what way is someone disadvantaged for the crystal?

 

There is currently a line, where you have to level up each individual character and can change your specialization at any time for free with a sub or a small in-game credit payment without. You're drawing a new line to include AC changes. Then there's a new line for class changes. Then you just buy what you want in the end.

 

Slippery slope fallacy. Just because they give us AC swaps doesn't mean we get class swaps, or BiS gear in the CM. Especially the class swaps. They couldn't give us faction swaps because the disruption to story lines was too great. Class swaps wouldn't be ANY easier. We won't get them because of actual mechanical restrictions. BiS gear wouldn't hit the CM because that's just a bad idea as obtaining the BiS gear is the PvE end game, and you don't want people to skip that.

 

Pushing the line for the better doesn't mean you have to push it ad nauseum until you break the system.

 

 

Now we're getting to the part of the argument that no one agrees on. You are of the opinion that it's ok to move the line to include AC changes because respec works fine. Others are of the opinion that the line stops at respecs. I think it has a lot to do with perspective. I know that Raansu is primarily in the PvP forums and from a PvP perspective, the ability to change to a different AC that is stronger in the current meta without having to level it up is P2W. In the realm of RP or PvE or GSF, this change really doesn't have any negative impacts from a gameplay perspective other than level 55s who don't know how to play their class (which we know happens already).

 

I actually only do PvP. I don't see the problem. The FotM problem is only one of perception. Every class has good matchups and bad ones. If a bad matchup gets a buff, people come on the forums crying about FotM, because what often happens is that when ANY class gets a buff, it becomes over-represented as a lot of people want to try it out.

 

BUT, that's a debate for the PvP forums. Like you said, for the other types of gameplay, the negative impact is small, if existent at all.

 

Though some might try and abuse it, AC swaps would really be a huge QoL improvement for those players that have come to regret a decision made quite early in a character's life, allowing them to change that decision without having to abandon all progress made so far. It also serves those who like to experiment or sample, but lack the time or patience to level a whole stable of toons. I think the potential benefits greatly outweigh the potential negatives.

Edited September 15, 2014 by waterboytkd

[Ratajack]

I suppose you judge books by their cover too huh? What do you know at level 10 about end game tanking? Hell, from 10-54 you never even need to tank, so why would it even matter? It's a heads or tails choice at 10.

 

Who cares about W0W? What the hell does W0W have to do with this? The classes are most certainly NOT as different as you profess. Not only do I share EVERY CLASS skill with the other AC (which is half of my entire skills), every AC shares an entire TREE!!!

 

I suppose you're against respec's as well? Hell, you should also be against alts too right? I mean, you seem to think the difference is so great that only a few have mastered the art of playing multiple roles, so I guess you think alts should be removed too right? If you want a tank, you should have rolled a tank...right? If you want a DPS, you should have rolled a DPS...I mean, since you seem to think it's such a black and white issue, how could you possibly support alts? If you did support alts, you'd be a hypocrite, because that's the same thing as swapping ACs...it's merely a role change, nothing more. Swapping from my Mando to my Vanguard is really no different than allowing an AC swap...in fact it might be worse because I then have double the companions, double the missions I can run, double the crafting classes...geezus...think of the harm alts cause.

 

Please show me two classes (AC's) that actually share a tree. I'm not aware of any.

 

Powertech and mercenary may each have a tree with the same name and some of the same skills within that tree may even have the same name. Many of the skills with the same name function differently for each class (AC) and many are in different locations within their respective trees. In short, those trees are NOT identical and therefore NOT a shared tree.

[Ratajack]

And for some, rerolling is fine. Even preferred. But for other people, they would rather drop some real money to dodge the reroll. How is that a bad thing?

 

Are you saying that there are players who are <gasp> too averse to the modicum of effort required to actually level that new class they want to play and that is their motivation for wanting to change their class (AC) or wanting BW to hand them a new class (AC)?

 

I never would have guessed that.

[Savej]

As I said before, they don't really use the basic skills. They have them, but are rarely used (unless you are counting the free shot or focus builder strike). Majority of skills you use are skills of your advanced class and your spec.

 

And it affects the game as a whole in much more than just switching weapons. Say I switch from healing sage to tank shadow. I need completely new set of gear (unlike switching from healing sage to dps sage, where my equipment remains somewhat usable). This could lead to people demanding that all stats are merged into one big pool so that they do not have to get new gear for their switching, and so on and so on (I believe it is called salami method)

 

switch from tank sin to dps sin - all gear should be changed

switch from healing sage to dps shadow (or dps sage)- no rush to change anything other than mainhand (for the shadow)

Does that counter most of your problems with gear? The biggest change requirements already exist with currently available spec changes.

 

Guardians and sentinels use a lot of the same buttons. Sure, the buttons that they push the most change from spec to spec or AC but out of ~25 keybinds my focus guardian and sentinel are sharing at least half of the same layout. You can't dismiss that the primary energy mechanics are the same and both acs leap, sweep, strike, slash, awe, enervate, zealous leap, dispatch, master-strike, kick, stasis, force-field, cyclone slash, cc-break, bladestorm (and that's where the top of my head fades but that's more than half of the keybinds that i regularly use with either character). No one's saying they're the same or nearly the same but they aren't as completely different as some spec changes in other very similar games.

[Ratajack]

 

Originally, btw, bw fully intended to allow ac swapping.

 

Actually, originally BW did NOT intend to allow class (AC) changing. During beta, they did talk about changing their minds and allowing class (AC) changing, but ultimately decided to keep the choice of AC PERMANENT. This decision not to allow class (AC) changing was due to the overwhelming feedback from players.

[crubel]

Actually, originally BW did NOT intend to allow class (AC) changing. During beta, they did talk about changing their minds and allowing class (AC) changing, but ultimately decided to keep the choice of AC PERMANENT. This decision not to allow class (AC) changing was due to the overwhelming feedback from players.

 

I completely disagree with your statement that beta had overwhelming feedback from the players that focused one way or the other. I recall extremely passionate and divided feedback in beta, much as can be seen in this thread and others in the past that have been similar, but player feedback was not and has never been united on this topic. If it was, this thread would not be as long as it is.

[Ratajack]

SPEC IS NOT A CLASS.

 

Why are you incapable of understanding this? Specs are not designed to be classes, rarely if ever are they designed and presented as unique classes....they are designed as SPECS, in order to support roles.

 

Are you disputing the very definition of spec and role? Somehow spec is now class?

 

SPECS play fundamentally different in almost all games that have specs. That does NOT make them individual classes, and the contention that a spec is a class is rather foolish IMO.

 

The problem is bad design, compounded by ridiculous arguments that justify bad design.

 

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but every sorcerer SPEC is RANGED. Yes, they may play a little differently, but every one is RANGED. Assassins SPECS are all MELEE.

 

You are correct, spec is not class. AC's however are much more than simply a spec. They may not be as distinctly classes as you would like, but they are not simply specs, no matter what some may wish.

 

 

Even the devs have stated that they are fundamentally DIFFERENT CLASS designs and that they were treated as FULL CLASSES.

 

I see them as distinctly different classes within a story line, while you may see them as merely an unchangeable spec.

 

Like you, I would prefer if they had made it much clearer whether the AC's are classes or merely a spec.

 

If they are classes, I would have preferred that they made it clear that you were choosing STORY at creation and CLASS at level 10 or later.

 

If they are merely a spec, I would have preferred that they allowed AC changes as they allow spec changes.

[crubel]

Correct me if I am wrong, but every sorcerer SPEC is RANGED. Yes, they may play a little differently, but every one is RANGED. Assassins SPECS are all MELEE.

 

I'm more on the side of allowing AC change, but you do bring up a good point about melee vs range which is mostly a huge different between ACs. Changing my sniper to an operative would be like night and day due to the melee vs ranged points your bring up, and a lot of people tend to prefer one over the other.

 

I'm curious on your thoughts on this example I have though. I have a BH (Powertech), a Trooper (Commando), and an Assassin. Even though my BH is more melee and the commando more ranged, I have a much easier time switching between my BH and Trooper (two different ACs!), than between any of the specs of my assassin. Every spec on my assassin feels wildy different. Darkness requires I change out everything I'm wearing, and it doesn't feel like a stealth class at all. Deception feels like a traditional stealth/rogue bursty class, and madness is dps, but does not really feel like a traditional stealth class to me. Stealth feels like more of an afterthought in Madness. However, if I was about to switch ACs and stay dps with my BH or Trooper, I would just change an off-hand or mainhand, which is much less worse than going from Madness sin to Darkness sin. Thoughts?

[Heat-Wave]

How does a player new to WoW know how the class he chooses at CREATION will play at level cap? Can he cry "I didn't know it would be like this. WAH! WAH! WAH!" and change his class? No, he cannot. He must level a new character of the new class he wishes to play.

 

That is exactly how a player can play a new class in this game. One simply has to level that new class.

 

You are confused...

 

No one is asking for class changes. We are asking for advanced class changes.

 

Even I, a proponent of offering choice, don't think class changes make any sense. But AC changes? Total sense.

 

AC changes are nothing more than a skill respec, nothing changes in the story, the ship, the faction, anything... Slight gear adjustments may need to be made, but that is very minor.

[Heat-Wave]

I see them as distinctly different classes within a story line, while you may see them as merely an unchangeable spec.

 

Have you stopped to consider for a min that the vast majority of people in this thread do not agree with you?

 

You're welcome to your point of view and your opinion, but when you're in the minoirty, perhaps there is a reason for it.

[Ratajack]

Slippery slope is a argument fallacy. Allowing a person to breath is a slippery slope because they could use that breath to stay alive, and then use their life to kill innocent people. See? Slippery slope. Of course, my example is total bull. That's what a slippery slope is. Bull. Just because BW lets us swap ACs doesn't mean they have to let us buy level 55 toons, or buy BiS gear.

 

As for your gear swap thing...honestly, who cares? If there was a vendor that let you swap mods and CC for a new mod of the same level and quality, what do I care if you want to dump a bunch of cash on this game and change your dps into a tank or vice versa? Granted, I play for the PvP, so gear grind is a means to an end (and even then, an obnoxious one that needs to be abolished), not the end itself. For PvE, you play to just get the gear, so a gear shortcut essentially cuts out how much PvE endgame you do.

 

Which is another distinction. AC swap lets people skip past the leveling portion. Not the end game. And it doesn't let someone skip the leveling on a story line they've never done. Only let's them skip the leveling on content they've already run.

 

And if you're real concern is that someone who has a bunch of money (and is willing to waste it) has an easier go of it than those without...I mean, that's real life, isn't it? And this is a product that a for-profit company is selling. MMO communities are one of the more unique consumers out there. They have the notion that, even though you pay for your product, you should have to work to get satisfaction out of it. This isn't a life, and it isn't a job. It's a game. Why shouldn't some conveniences and shortcuts exist for those who are willing to pay for it?

 

The claim has been made by many that a player changing his class has no impact on me, therefore it should be allowed.

 

Well, BW allowing me to buy a character at max level with BIS gear, all companions (including HK-51 and Treek) at max affection with all companion unlocks wold have no affect on you. According to the logic used by many of those who desire class (AC) changes, BW should allow me to buy characters at max level with BIS gear, all companions (including HK-51 and Treek) at max affection and all companion unlocks.

 

That is the slippery slope you wish to ignore.

[Ratajack]

I completely disagree with your statement that beta had overwhelming feedback from the players that focused one way or the other. I recall extremely passionate and divided feedback in beta, much as can be seen in this thread and others in the past that have been similar, but player feedback was not and has never been united on this topic. If it was, this thread would not be as long as it is.

 

Try going back and reading this thread from the first page. I do not expect you to do so, as that would require some effort and time. Effort is something to which you seem to be averse.

 

The facts have been presented numerous times. The fact that you choose to ignore or disbelieve them does not make them any less facts.

 

I never said that the feedback was unanimous, just that it was overwhelmingly in favor of NOT allowing class (AC) changes.

 

The diverse feedback was what led the devs to consider changing their minds and allowing class (AC) changes, but ultimately the majority of the feedback was against allowing class (AC) changes.

[Ratajack]

I'm more on the side of allowing AC change, but you do bring up a good point about melee vs range which is mostly a huge different between ACs. Changing my sniper to an operative would be like night and day due to the melee vs ranged points your bring up, and a lot of people tend to prefer one over the other.

 

I'm curious on your thoughts on this example I have though. I have a BH (Powertech), a Trooper (Commando), and an Assassin. Even though my BH is more melee and the commando more ranged, I have a much easier time switching between my BH and Trooper (two different ACs!), than between any of the specs of my assassin. Every spec on my assassin feels wildy different. Darkness requires I change out everything I'm wearing, and it doesn't feel like a stealth class at all. Deception feels like a traditional stealth/rogue bursty class, and madness is dps, but does not really feel like a traditional stealth class to me. Stealth feels like more of an afterthought in Madness. However, if I was about to switch ACs and stay dps with my BH or Trooper, I would just change an off-hand or mainhand, which is much less worse than going from Madness sin to Darkness sin. Thoughts?

 

Just as in other games, some specs play very differently. Some classes may be very similar in play style, but still be different classes.

 

A marksmanship hunter plays very differently than a survival hunter or a beast mastery hunter in WoW. That does not make a survival hunter a different class than a marksmanship hunter.

 

Going from a healing priest to a healing paladin may not be as difficult as going from heading priest to shadow priest. That does not make the priest and paladin any less different classes.

[Ratajack]

You are confused...

 

No one is asking for class changes. We are asking for advanced class changes.

 

Even I, a proponent of offering choice, don't think class changes make any sense. But AC changes? Total sense.

 

AC changes are nothing more than a skill respec, nothing changes in the story, the ship, the faction, anything... Slight gear adjustments may need to be made, but that is very minor.

 

Check your guild roster.

 

How many level 55 characters have bounty hunter or trooper listed as their CLASS?

 

How many level 55 characters have COMMANDO, VANGUARD, POWERTECH or MERCENARY listed as their CLASS?

 

If AC's are merely a spec, then why are they listed as your CLASS in your guild roster, any /who, or if you target another player?

[Heat-Wave]

Try going back and reading this thread from the first page. I do not expect you to do so, as that would require some effort and time. Effort is something to which you seem to be averse.

 

The facts have been presented numerous times. The fact that you choose to ignore or disbelieve them does not make them any less facts.

 

I never said that the feedback was unanimous, just that it was overwhelmingly in favor of NOT allowing class (AC) changes.

 

The diverse feedback was what led the devs to consider changing their minds and allowing class (AC) changes, but ultimately the majority of the feedback was against allowing class (AC) changes.

 

Whatever the feedback was in 2011 from beta vs. the views today on a F2P/Sub hybrid really don't have a lot to so with each other any more.

 

The feedback today, the only feedback that matters, looks to me to be majority for AC changes.

[Ratajack]

Have you stopped to consider for a min that the vast majority of people in this thread do not agree with you?

 

You're welcome to your point of view and your opinion, but when you're in the minoirty, perhaps there is a reason for it.

 

I guess you have not read this thread completely from page one, then.

 

If you had, you would know that there are a great many who see the AC's as classes.

 

As I have said before, even the devs have stated that the AC's are FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT CLASS designs, and that they were treated as FULL CLASSES within the story lines.

[Ratajack]

Whatever the feedback was in 2011 from beta vs. the views today on a F2P/Sub hybrid really don't have a lot to so with each other any more.

 

The feedback today, the only feedback that matters, looks to me to be majority for AC changes.

 

Ignore the truth or find some convenient excuse to disregard it, if you wish.

 

Even in this thread, the feedback does not seem to be a clear majority, either way. Go back through the thread and I think you will find the numbers of individual posters in favor of allowing class (AC) changes is roughly equal to the number of posters against allowing class (AC) changes. I did take the time to do so. I no longer have the list I compiled, but there was no vast majority, or even a clear one.

 

Some posters definitely have more posts than others, but the overall numbers of individual posters on each side are very close to equal.

 

 

 

Ultimately, the only thing that matters is what BW thinks.

 

So far, it seems that they think that your choice of class (AC) is still PERMANENT, no matter how much people wish otherwise.