ETA on Advanced Class change?

[branmakmuffin]

Bran knows more than the devs. Apparently he is now in charge of the game. I suggest that all complaints with the game, be directed to him.

You and logic are not very well acquainted, are you?

[Terin]

This. Why do people think it's okay to switch classes? They really screwed it up when they made the AC's. I knew this would happen. It was however, the only way to make sure each class had it's own story and you could play it from two perspectives.

 

Honestly, they shouldn't have ever had "Advanced Classes" at all, especially given that it's just far enough into your character's story that you feel invested, yet not so far that you feel you "know" the class, top to bottom. I suspect they added them as a means to keep the two factions completely balanced, and it wasn't a bad notion, but it came with a lot of problems.

 

To be honest, I'm still not even sure how I feel about the situations. There are so many Pro's and Con's to both sides of the debate, it's almost impossible to form an opinion that would be completely satisfying.

[Ratajack]

You keep holding onto a definition of Class as defined by other games and an old quote taken from the as then Lead Writer.

 

In SWTOR ...

Your Class is your Class, it defines your story, the companions you can have and the choice of two Advanced Classes.

Your Advanced Class is an arbitrary mechanical separation of abilities based on role and has no impact on story or companions.

 

That quote has NEVER been contradicted sine that lead dev spoke it. That would make it the latest word from the devs on the state of AC's being different classes or not. That would make it STILL the views of the devs, until they choose to contradict it and tell us that AC's are not different classes.

[Ratajack]

You and logic are not very well acquainted, are you?

 

Logic and I are very well acquainted.

 

The devs have said multiple times that AC's are DIFFERENT classes. You refuse to accept the devs words on this and continue to insist they they are not different classes. ERGO, you must think you know more than the devs.

[branmakmuffin]

Logic and I are very well acquainted.

No, you are not.

 

Your turn.

 

The devs have said multiple times that AC's are DIFFERENT classes. You refuse to accept the devs words on this and continue to insist they they are not different classes. ERGO, you must think you know more than the devs.

And it has been said over and over in this thread that if 'the devs" wanted to change the game to allow AC change, they could. You seem to be living in a river in Egypt regarding that fact. You just continue to shout 'You can't change it because it's always been this way!"

Edited October 25, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Ratajack]

or i don't know... stop playing the game all together because they are not having fun now, and leveling a new alt sounds even less like fun?

 

playing video games is a hobby, a leisurely pastime. its supposed to be fun. even when its challenging and exhausting and difficult - its STILL supposed to be fun. the moment it stops being fun, and starts being boring slog? its NOT worth it.

 

also this

 

Should we open up creation of max level characters for those that don't enjoy the leveling process but enjoy the end game? Should we bestow BIS gear to those players who do not enjoy the whole gear grind? Should we give the best PVP gear to players who do not like the grind earn it? This list of things some people do not enjoy goes on and on. Every player has something about the game they do not like or do not enjoy, I'm sure. Do we allow every player to skip the part(s) of the game they do not enjoy, but still reap the rewards?

 

Sometimes it is necessary to do things we do not like to get the rewards we want.

[branmakmuffin]

Should we open up creation of max level characters for those that don't enjoy the leveling process but enjoy the end game? Should we bestow BIS gear to those players who do not enjoy the whole gear grind? Should we give the best PVP gear to players who do not like the grind earn it? This list of things some people do not enjoy goes on and on. Every player has something about the game they do not like or do not enjoy, I'm sure. Do we allow every player to skip the part(s) of the game they do not enjoy, but still reap the rewards?

 

Sometimes it is necessary to do things we do not like to get the rewards we want.

This is a copy and paste of a previous reply of yours. Your argument is so vacuous you can't even come up with new material.

[Ratajack]

No, you are not.

 

Your turn.

 

 

And it has been said over and over in this thread that if 'the devs" wanted to change the game to allow AC change, they could. You seem to be living in a river in Egypt regarding that fact. You just continue to shout 'You can't change it because it's always been this way!"

 

I have acknowledged many times that they CAN change anything they want to change. I have also said that just because something CAN be changed does not necessarily mean that it should be changed.

 

You are not saying that the devs can change their minds about the AC being different classes, you are saying that they are NOT different classes. What you are doing, however, is saying that the devs are wrong by your insistance that the AC are not different classes when the last word from the devs is that they ARE.

[Vhaegrant]

Do they continue to slog through those dailies on that class they do not enjoy now? I'm betting that they do.

 

Here's a novel concept. How about instead of sitting around waiting for someone else to fix their perceived problem, they actually do something top solve it themselves? Like, I don't know, maybe level that other class they want to play?

 

I'm betting that they don't. Ta dah who's statement has more merit? Most of the folks I know play the game for fun.

They don't find it fun to be levelling solo because everyone else they know is off doing level 55 content and so they drift away. Besides which despite many posters comment there is a significant time investment in going from 1 to 55, somewhere in the region of 80 hours (just going on my own average of 3 and a half days to 55) if you are following class content only. That's a big enough hill to climb once for most gamers let alone twice or more. It's well observed that most gamers fail to complete games that have far less of a time commitment.

 

Read this article... Staying Power: Rethinking Feedback to Keep Players in the Game

 

Or just Google 'How many gamers finish a game?'

 

Most gamers, be them casual or otherwise, find at somepoint in their lives a need to prioritise their gaming time. AC swapping is just one resource that may keep a player in their seat playing the game.

[TUXs]

Should we open up creation of max level characters for those that don't enjoy the leveling process but enjoy the end game?

Huh? What does this have to do with AC switching?

Should we bestow BIS gear to those players who do not enjoy the whole gear grind?

Players can already buy 72's off the GTN to avoid the entire gear grind if they like.

Should we give the best PVP gear to players who do not like the grind earn it?

What do you think BOLSTER does? Bolster allows EXACTLY this. It allows anyone who doesn't want to grind PvP gear, to have the benefits of PvP gear.

Do we allow every player to skip the part(s) of the game they do not enjoy, but still reap the rewards?

*spacebar*

Sometimes it is necessary to do things we do not like to get the rewards we want.

It's a game rat...get a grip.

[PeterTLJr]

I have acknowledged many times that they CAN change anything they want to change. I have also said that just because something CAN be changed does not necessarily mean that it should be changed.

 

You are not saying that the devs can change their minds about the AC being different classes, you are saying that they are NOT different classes. What you are doing, however, is saying that the devs are wrong by your insistance that the AC are not different classes when the last word from the devs is that they ARE.

 

Must I link you what they think are classes? Check the holonet, go to classes, theres 8 classes. Jedi Knight, Jedi Consular, Trooper, Smuggler, Sith Warrior, Sith Inquisitor, Bounty Hunter, and Imperial Agent. Those are the classes. If BW really thought of ACs as there own actual class they would better demonstrate it.

[branmakmuffin]

I have acknowledged many times that they CAN change anything they want to change. I have also said that just because something CAN be changed does not necessarily mean that it should be changed.

Yet you seem to embrace the notion of "they shouldn't change something because it has always been this way." Change for the sake of it is not a good enough reason to change, but not changing just because it's always been this way is not a good enough reason not to change.

 

You are not saying that the devs can change their minds about the AC being different classes, you are saying that they are NOT different classes. What you are doing, however, is saying that the devs are wrong by your insistance that the AC are not different classes when the last word from the devs is that they ARE.

They are not different classes, they are different ACs. Right now, you can't change classes or ACs. I doubt we will ever see class change. We may eventually see AC change (but I am not gonna hold my breath). I don't have to be a professional software developer to see that the technical hurdles involved in each of those cases is vastly different. Because of story/companion/romance stuff, we are no more likely to see class change than we are to see gender or faction change, IMO.

[DOHboy]

speaking of main hand weapons.

 

I don't know about you all, but I constantly transfer mods/hilts/barrels/etc across alts. I've done alt rolls on arcanian mainhands (because in com runs, most of us don't need gear for mains anymore, so its almost entirely offspec/alts/companions), won them on my sorc healer and send them off to a completely unrelated alt (most recent was jugg tank)

 

I almost never use the shell that originally drops. 95% of the time, I pull mods out and either transfer them through legacy gear, or into my preferred shell of choice.

 

so lets say, hypothetically (this won't happen, because I already have an assassin alt, and I like my sorc just the way she is) - I switch from sorc to assassin, and well... looks like all I have my single blade lightsaber except... wait! I go to collections and spawn a dual bladed lightsaber I have unlocked for my account, pull mods out of my single blade lightsaber and plug them into my new dual blade. (and if you are not like me and don't have it unlocked, on my server at least, GTN is flooded with tons and tons of common cartel market weapons that sell for 3-4000 credits., I just wanted particular look without having to buy it fresh over and over)

 

whadayano - main hand problem? SOLVED!

 

but what if I go from healer to tank? well then, in that case I go to this handy tool called GTN and either buy a hilt there, or better yet, grab some mats and have a guildy craft it for me. tada! (or just craft me a 66 hilt, something I CAn actually do due to having many alts and all crew skills maxed out)

 

honestly. gearing is NOT an issue. credits to regear? couple of days of dailies and you have MORE then enough to buy a completely fresh starter set. (especially not that basic coms buy 69 gear rather than 66)

 

People already complain about the cost of simply swapping out mods/armor/enhancements/and augments. Have 2 sets of gear is one things, since you can keep your main hand. however, when you must purchase a new weapon outright that you would not normally carry is a different issue than swapping within your AC.

 

If people don't mind the cost (probably on order of a few million credits) by all means ignore it. But people expect this to be a single cost of just swapping the AC, not the additional costs of swapping gear AND purchasing new gear outright. I typically do not carry an offhand generator on my sentinel. Swapping from a Sentinel to a Guardian tank would be prohibitively expensive (now DPS to DPS only costs me an off hand). Not saying its not possible but to go from a fully geared 55 Sentinel to a 55 Guardian tank would be EXTREMELY expensive and until fully geared would be unable to perform to the best of the class. Let alone needing to learn how to tank as a guardian when doing a watchman rotation for last few years.

[Vhaegrant]

People already complain about the cost of simply swapping out mods/armor/enhancements/and augments. Have 2 sets of gear is one things, since you can keep your main hand. however, when you must purchase a new weapon outright that you would not normally carry is a different issue than swapping within your AC.

 

If people don't mind the cost (probably on order of a few million credits) by all means ignore it. But people expect this to be a single cost of just swapping the AC, not the additional costs of swapping gear AND purchasing new gear outright. I typically do not carry an offhand generator on my sentinel. Swapping from a Sentinel to a Guardian tank would be prohibitively expensive (now DPS to DPS only costs me an off hand). Not saying its not possible but to go from a fully geared 55 Sentinel to a 55 Guardian tank would be EXTREMELY expensive and until fully geared would be unable to perform to the best of the class. Let alone needing to learn how to tank as a guardian when doing a watchman rotation for last few years.

 

So your main point against allowing an AC swap is that it requires TOO much effort to gear up. You expect the AC swap to give you a full set of top gear for your new AC choice? That sounds like laziness to me

 

Once you hit the endgame treadmill it really isn't that costly or difficult to augment gear and mod it out to at least level 69 mods. Any further progression should cost you some effort, want 72s go earn the credits to buy them off the GTN want 78s go find a guild to run Ops with. This is no different for any character trying to build up a set with BiS mods.

 

I would question why a player who has had the patience and desire to already achieve a BiS set and so obviously enjoys their AC, would want to swap over to the other AC.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Vhaegrant

[branmakmuffin]

People already complain about the cost of simply swapping out mods/armor/enhancements/and augments. Have 2 sets of gear is one things, since you can keep your main hand. however, when you must purchase a new weapon outright that you would not normally carry is a different issue than swapping within your AC.

 

If people don't mind the cost (probably on order of a few million credits) by all means ignore it. But people expect this to be a single cost of just swapping the AC, not the additional costs of swapping gear AND purchasing new gear outright. I typically do not carry an offhand generator on my sentinel. Swapping from a Sentinel to a Guardian tank would be prohibitively expensive (now DPS to DPS only costs me an off hand). Not saying its not possible but to go from a fully geared 55 Sentinel to a 55 Guardian tank would be EXTREMELY expensive and until fully geared would be unable to perform to the best of the class. Let alone needing to learn how to tank as a guardian when doing a watchman rotation for last few years.

If gearing up for a new AC would be too expensive, people wouldn't have to do it. Not only "problem solved," "problem nonexistent."

 

Regarding some alleged "learning curve," you're never going to convince me that going from Marauder to tank-spec Juggernaut is worlds different from going from DPS-spec Juggernaut to tank-spec Juggernaut. As noted many times, the only "role transition" that AC change would allow that spec change does not allows is between tanking and healing. So, as I've stated before. we're expected to believe that switching between DPS/heal or DPS/tank is easy peasy but switching between tank/heal is real mind bender.

 

I would question why a player who has had the patience and desire to already achieve a BiS set and so obviously enjoys their AC, would want to swap over to the other AC.

When a person doesn't have a cogent argument, they'll fall back onto spinning out wildly speculative "nightmare scenarios."

Edited October 25, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Jeweledleah]

People already complain about the cost of simply swapping out mods/armor/enhancements/and augments. Have 2 sets of gear is one things, since you can keep your main hand. however, when you must purchase a new weapon outright that you would not normally carry is a different issue than swapping within your AC.

 

If people don't mind the cost (probably on order of a few million credits) by all means ignore it. But people expect this to be a single cost of just swapping the AC, not the additional costs of swapping gear AND purchasing new gear outright. I typically do not carry an offhand generator on my sentinel. Swapping from a Sentinel to a Guardian tank would be prohibitively expensive (now DPS to DPS only costs me an off hand). Not saying its not possible but to go from a fully geared 55 Sentinel to a 55 Guardian tank would be EXTREMELY expensive and until fully geared would be unable to perform to the best of the class. Let alone needing to learn how to tank as a guardian when doing a watchman rotation for last few years.

 

what people expect and reality are not always the same thing.

 

to expect the gear to morph into something you need is naive and foolish. its kinda like expecting that switching from dps to to tank can be done with just click of a button. sure, some people do and they are the people you sometimes see in that thread in flashpoint section of the forums. but those people already exist and their existence should not penalize those who are aware and willing to front the costs.

 

but lets go back to your example.

 

going from dps jugg to tanking jugg can be extremely expensive.

 

I know, since I gathered a full set of dps gear for my own back when I accepted that tanking pugs is not fun.

 

however. going from sentinel to dps jugg? not nearly as expensive. ESPECIALLY if you are wearing adoptive gear that literally changes its type depending on who wears it, since all you'll really need is a new offhand.

 

denying it to people because of costs? really? I thought csts would have been that incentive to think twice before making the change, you know, to make it meaningful.

 

as for rotations? not nearly as difficult to relearn. much harder is to switch mentality between I shouldn't be having aggro to, I SHOULD be having aggro. something we already have to do if we play more than one spec. even switching between dps specs requires some extra learning and practice. so no, its not going to be much harder than what we are already doing currently.

[LanceCorporalDan]

no. advice to reroll doesn't wash precisely because its the game. aka it should be enjoyed. and not everyone enjoys rerolling.

 

games should be fun, not work. its people who are against advanced class change that try to make it more srs business then it really is

 

You're right, it is a game. A multiplayer game. Everyone worked to get where they are today, I don't expect a sniper who worked and played to max his character out to be able to switch to be like my operative at will, likewise I don't expect to be able to switch to a sniper. They are different classes and playstyles.

 

Games should be fun, but in MMOs there is this thing called grind. Which means work. One should have to work towards something if they want it, not just demand they get it due to their self-entitled opinion. Work can be fun, which exactly what re-rolling is. In every other MMO I've played, if I wanted to experience a different playstyle or class I would have to re-roll... which is what I and most others have done.

[DOHboy]

My point was that people may not realized the true cost of swapping an AC as it is not simply a tree change. Additionally during that transition period your class is severely limited. If you limited to say level 15 sure no problems. But then be prepared for the complaints of unnecessary restrictions.

 

That was just one of the various reasons I am against AC changes. The main being that choices DO AND SHOULD have consequences. Allowing people a "do over" simply because, feeds the current culture of lack of 'personal responsibility"

 

If you REALLY want my opinion THAT would be a fundamental one. You went in with FULL knowledge of what that choice would mean. Giving you the freedom to say "oops sorry didn't mean that, can I do it differently" should have some permanent impact.

 

conversations is a slightly different issue since you do not always know the impact of what your choice will be for the given context nor what the reaction will be given the brief snippet of text as your choice. So I do allow that as a slightly less concrete choice since you may not have all the information to make a fully informed choice.

[TUXs]

My point was that people may not realized the true cost of swapping an AC as it is not simply a tree change. Additionally during that transition period your class is severely limited. If you limited to say level 15 sure no problems.

 

Couldn't I argue that many people may not have realized the restriction of choosing the AC they did? Isn't that just as valid? There would be no point to limit this to level 15 DOH, at 15, reroll...you're 30min into that toon...big deal. It's at 55 where the game goes from single player, to a multiplayer game where the different roles are truly noticed (and needed).

[Vhaegrant]

You're right, it is a game. A multiplayer game. Everyone worked to get where they are today, I don't expect a sniper who worked and played to max his character out to be able to switch to be like my operative at will, likewise I don't expect to be able to switch to a sniper. They are different classes and playstyles.

 

Games should be fun, but in MMOs there is this thing called grind. Which means work. One should have to work towards something if they want it, not just demand they get it due to their self-entitled opinion. Work can be fun, which exactly what re-rolling is. In every other MMO I've played, if I wanted to experience a different playstyle or class I would have to re-roll... which is what I and most others have done.

 

Just a couple of issues....

 

1) At no time has any one suggested that the change would be 'at will', it would have a direct cost (I suggest a CC cost and a cool down period) and an indirect cost (requipping gear and training up the new AC specific abilities).

 

2) Grind was an old mindset of MMO to prolong bum-on-seat time and give the developers time to get new content out there. I find it funny to see players that think grind should be an acceptable form for any game. If anything grind turns away far more players than it attracts. You still have 7 other classes with their unique stories and playstyles to go and grind through if you so desire.

[Vhaegrant]

My point was that people may not realized the true cost of swapping an AC as it is not simply a tree change. Additionally during that transition period your class is severely limited. If you limited to say level 15 sure no problems. But then be prepared for the complaints of unnecessary restrictions.

It's worse than that, the first time you swap over to the other AC you'd have to front up the cost of raising the abilities. If you were level 55 that could be a significant cost in and of itself.

One of the primary arguments against allowing AC swapping is that it is an 'easy option' and encourages laziness and yet you are arguing against it because it requires too much effort

And again, at level 55 the effort required to get a set of gear acceptable to start group content is not so time consuming.

 

That was just one of the various reasons I am against AC changes. The main being that choices DO AND SHOULD have consequences. Allowing people a "do over" simply because, feeds the current culture of lack of 'personal responsibility"

 

If you REALLY want my opinion THAT would be a fundamental one. You went in with FULL knowledge of what that choice would mean. Giving you the freedom to say "oops sorry didn't mean that, can I do it differently" should have some permanent impact.

 

conversations is a slightly different issue since you do not always know the impact of what your choice will be for the given context nor what the reaction will be given the brief snippet of text as your choice. So I do allow that as a slightly less concrete choice since you may not have all the information to make a fully informed choice.

 

Wow, Intense! Players should be punished for not knowing at level 10 whether they will like an AC at level 46.

[Ratajack]

Must I link you what they think are classes? Check the holonet, go to classes, theres 8 classes. Jedi Knight, Jedi Consular, Trooper, Smuggler, Sith Warrior, Sith Inquisitor, Bounty Hunter, and Imperial Agent. Those are the classes. If BW really thought of ACs as there own actual class they would better demonstrate it.

 

Yet, the devs have said that the AC's are different classes. The four base classes define your story line. The same holonet also lets you know what advanced classes each class has available. There are 8 base classes (story lines), 8 groups of companions, and 16 classes in this game.

 

The next time you are in game, check out any character over level 10 with a base class of bounty hunter. Their class will likely NOT be listed as "bounty hunter-mercenary" or "bounty hunter-powertech". Their class likely will be listed as MERCENARY or POWERTECH. Check you guild roster. Do you see any chracaters listed as "Imperial agent-operative", "imperial agent-sniper", "smuggler-gunslinger" or "smuggler-scoundrel"? NO. You WILL, however, see "scoundrel", "gunslinger", "operative" or "sniper". Which ones you see will depend on your faction, of course.

 

 

If you want to think you know better then the devs, go right ahead.

[Ratajack]

They are not different classes, they are different ACs. Right now, you can't change classes or ACs. I doubt we will ever see class change. We may eventually see AC change (but I am not gonna hold my breath). I don't have to be a professional software developer to see that the technical hurdles involved in each of those cases is vastly different. Because of story/companion/romance stuff, we are no more likely to see class change than we are to see gender or faction change, IMO.

 

There you go again. You insist on ignoring the devs statements, thinking you know more than the devs.

 

You may not see the AC's as different classes, but the devs DO see them as different classes. That makes them different classes, despite people's wishes that they were not different classes. The devs can change their minds at any time and recant their statements, but so far, they have not.

[DOHboy]

snip

Wow, Intense! Players should be punished for not knowing at level 10 whether they will like an AC at level 46.

 

well maybe 3 or 6 months into it. But 2 years into it, and the plethora of information about classes/ builds/rotations etc kind of make hard to believe "i didn't know what i was getting into". That and the plethora of changes ahead kind of who's to say you WONT like it soon.

[Ratajack]

what people expect and reality are not always the same thing.

 

 

Kind of like expecting AC's not to be different classes, but the reality is that they ARE different classes?

 

Kind of like expecting to be able to change your class to the other AC, but the reality is that you cannot undo that permanent decision?