ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Spatology]

I see the same 3 people throwing up walls of denial each time they run out of arguements.

 

"dont tell me how to play"

 

"ac's arent like classes or anything"

 

"but it would be good for the game"

 

Ok. Yes they are. Negatory.

 

Like, ban me and about 6 people from this thread and it would die and 404 in 30 mins.

[branmakmuffin]

You do realize that the AC's are different classes in the eyes of the devs. The devs would be the ones who make the rules, define the classes, set the mechanics, etc

You do realize "the devs" can make any changes to the game they choose.

 

And thus we start the cycle again.

[TUXs]

This is the problem TUXs and others want to declare a non-issue because we have some players now who change specs. They seem to forget that a player changing specs has a basic knowledge of the class and the majority of the class skills. A commando will likely be familiar with the commando's healing spells, with the exception of talent tree specific skills. That same commando will likely have no idea about the vanguard's taunts, or mitigation skills.

Not only is there a shared tree, there is also a common class with class specific skills that remain static AC to AC. You act like the player would be clueless as to what to do...reading a few tooltips is all it would take most players to figure it out.

 

I understand you're concerned about the lowest skilled player being confused...I'm sure they appreciate your concern, but I also know that the majority of players who would make use of an AC change, would be just fine. Again, this isn't nearly as difficult as you make it sound.

Edited August 10, 2013 by TUXs

[Ratajack]

Not only is there a shared tree, there is also a common class with class specific skills that remain static AC to AC. You act like the player would be clueless as to what to do...reading a few tooltips is all it would take most players to figure it out.

 

I understand you're concerned about the lowest skilled player being confused...I'm sure they appreciate your concern, but I also know that the majority of players who would make use of an AC change, would be just fine. Again, this isn't nearly as difficult as you make it sound.

 

You have your opinion. I have mine. Thankfully, the devs haves set the rules and the mechanics in place to render our opinions meaningless, as we CANNOT change our class, since our choice of class (AC) is PERMANENT.

 

Yes, the devs CAN change the rules and mechanics anytime they choose. They have NOT chosen to do so since before launch.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Ratajack

[Ratajack]

You do realize "the devs" can make any changes to the game they choose.

 

And thus we start the cycle again.

 

 

Not sure how many times this poster has to be told that MMO's may be an changing, always adapting type of genre, but the devs have NOT in any way contradicted their statements that the AC's are DIFFERENT classes, and so they are STILL different classes according to the ruling body, the devs. Can this change at some time in the future? Yes, but it HASN'T changed yet, just as the devs have chosen NOT to allow class changes at this time.

[LordArtemis]

It is an argument based on a flawed foundation.

 

IF ACs are separate classes...that much is obviously debatable with some folks, it really doesn't matter what Bioware thinks any more than it matters what someone else thinks besides you individually, that still has little to nothing to do with whether or not AC change should or could be allowed in this game.

 

Instead of discussing it logically, IMO, people keep resorting to this self feeding argument.

 

ACs are classes

No they are not

 

Since they are classes and class change is bad it should not be allowed here

They are not classes so it should be allowed here

 

Class change would hurt other players since players will not know the new class

It is not class change, and what other players do does not effect you

 

The real question, IMO, is whether or not the choice of AC is meaningful to the game population or not. If it isn't, than changing AC would be just as trivial as changing spec....and there are different degrees of meaningful, meaning one might accept a change early on (within 5 or 10 levels of initial choice) but not later on or unlimited.

 

If it is meaningful to the majority of the population, how would this change effect the overall views of the game with that playerbase?

 

There are many changes that could be made to the game that would make certain aspects of the game less meaningful. For instance, Bioware could start giving all characters on your account a 1 million EC a month allowance. Or allow you to roll a fresh 55, as many as you want, after maxing out one level 55 character.

 

They could remove all types of death penalty to make it completely non-punitive....I could go on.

 

Many changes could be made that one might say would not effect others, only you....but how would it effect their overall view of the game?

 

Is there such a thing as too easy? When it becomes too easy to change jobs in a game, does that job become less meaningful?

 

The idea that ACs are classes or not is speculative. That is up to each individual and how they view the system. The idea that it will no negative or positive impact if implemented...well...

 

I think that any sensible person has to concede that there are benefits...and detriments. Which will outweigh which?

 

Preventing AC change now or pointing out it is permanent means nothing IMO. Most of the latest changes to the game prove that once permanent changes are no longer so, and pretty much anything seems to be on the table of consideration. IMO it is silly to even mention it.

 

 

The question we should ask IMO....what effect would this change on the game population? Will it be welcomed or derided? Accepted or rejected?

 

In the end this is the only important question IMO.

[branmakmuffin]

Not sure how many times this poster has to be told that MMO's may be an changing, always adapting type of genre, but the devs have NOT in any way contradicted their statements that the AC's are DIFFERENT classes, and so they are STILL different classes according to the ruling body, the devs. Can this change at some time in the future? Yes, but it HASN'T changed yet, just as the devs have chosen NOT to allow class changes at this time.

Not sure how many times this poster has to be told that "the devs" can make any change to the game they want, regardless of how vociferously some posters claim they shouldn't simply because it's always been this way.

 

Your turn.

[TUXs]

You have your opinion. I have mine. Thankfully, the devs haves set the rules and the mechanics in place to render our opinions meaningless, as we CANNOT change our class, since our choice of class (AC) is PERMANENT.

 

Yes, the devs CAN change the rules and mechanics anytime they choose. They have NOT chosen to do so since before launch.

 

Hence the thread looking for WHEN AC change will be allowed, since they've implied it was coming.

 

Was species change allowed pre-launch or within a year post launch? Or body type? Or hair color? Your last statement is obviously and easily provably false.

Edited August 10, 2013 by TUXs

[TridusSWTOR]

Not sure how many times this poster has to be told that MMO's may be an changing, always adapting type of genre, but the devs have NOT in any way contradicted their statements that the AC's are DIFFERENT classes, and so they are STILL different classes according to the ruling body, the devs. Can this change at some time in the future? Yes, but it HASN'T changed yet, just as the devs have chosen NOT to allow class changes at this time.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

I will admit that a SINGLE player's choice of class (AC) has a miniscule chance of affecting another specific player directly, as would a SINGLE person's changing their class. The problem with allowing class changes is you aren't talking about a SINGLE person, you are talking about allowing everyone....

 

 

 

Gotta stop you there, at least you understand that AC change doesn't affect other players. Especially with the restrictions myself and many others have provided. What you are doing now, is comparing it to field respec, which can be changed on the fly. Which is something nobody is asking for. You have to stop with this mindset that AC change would be available with a click of a button with no restrictions.

 

 

You seem to forget that a player changing specs has a basic knowledge of the class and the majority of the class skills. A commando will likely be familiar with the commando's healing spells, with the exception of talent tree specific skills. That same commando will likely have no idea about the vanguard's taunts, or mitigation skills.

 

You seem to forget that going DPS spec on a sin or a jugg is faster for solo/leveling. Therefore people can play all the way to level 55 without ever touching that taunt button(hell even tanks don't use it now.). So that talking point, is nufflied.

 

There are tool-tips explaining what each ability does, don't try to lie to us and say that the game doesn't provide info on what each talent and skill does. It gives you all the info that is required, you are grasping at straws now.

 

Allowing class changes up to about level 15 would give most players a chance to determine if the basic play style and combat style of a given class suits them, or if they might like to try the other class. I would be more accepting of allowing class changes prior to up to level 15 than I would allowing class changes at max level.

 

The thing with level 15, is you don't go far into the talent tree at all to get a sense of what healing is like. If you were an operative healer at level 15, you would think it's horrible. Even though it's probably the best healing class in the game as of now. In order to get a full grasp of the potential that your AC can do, it would have to be in the level 35-45 range. Anything below pretty much tells you nothing.

 

Just so you know, there is a difference between a sorc DPS and a Merc DPS, even though they are both ranged.

[JaceMatai]

Are we ever going to get a gold post on this thread? It's gone on WAY too long without some kind of Bioware acknowledgement.

[astrobearx]

Are we ever going to get a gold post on this thread? It's gone on WAY too long without some kind of Bioware acknowledgement.

 

we wont get one until we hit the 1000 page limit count when the mod lock this thread and start a new one

[Brittaany_Banks]

Greed.

 

Bioware said they could pay the bills with 250k subs just before FTP was announced. Everything since FTP has been a growing trend of greed.

 

Are you defending poor business practice and customer care coupled with profit gouging?

 

Explain to me what excellent business practice is and then we will compare notes.

[Evalyn]

/shrugs

 

If people would pay for it, why not?

 

If you don't like it; don't do it. Simple as that.

[PeterTLJr]

/shrugs

 

If people would pay for it, why not?

 

If you don't like it; don't do it. Simple as that.

 

For this particular feature, I agree.

[PeterTLJr]

Are we ever going to get a gold post on this thread? It's gone on WAY too long without some kind of Bioware acknowledgement.

 

Thats the only reason I keep checking this thread is to see if we get a dev post, then I get sucked into reading and commenting.

[LordArtemis]

Honestly, If i were the devs and were discussing this, testing it out, etc I would not say a WORD about it until I had to.

 

Then they could throw it up on PTS and actually gauge the reaction.

[PeterTLJr]

It is an argument based on a flawed foundation.

 

IF ACs are separate classes...that much is obviously debatable with some folks, it really doesn't matter what Bioware thinks any more than it matters what someone else thinks besides you individually, that still has little to nothing to do with whether or not AC change should or could be allowed in this game.

 

Instead of discussing it logically, IMO, people keep resorting to this self feeding argument.

 

ACs are classes

No they are not

 

Since they are classes and class change is bad it should not be allowed here

They are not classes so it should be allowed here

 

Class change would hurt other players since players will not know the new class

It is not class change, and what other players do does not effect you

 

The real question, IMO, is whether or not the choice of AC is meaningful to the game population or not. If it isn't, than changing AC would be just as trivial as changing spec....and there are different degrees of meaningful, meaning one might accept a change early on (within 5 or 10 levels of initial choice) but not later on or unlimited.

 

If it is meaningful to the majority of the population, how would this change effect the overall views of the game with that playerbase?

 

There are many changes that could be made to the game that would make certain aspects of the game less meaningful. For instance, Bioware could start giving all characters on your account a 1 million EC a month allowance. Or allow you to roll a fresh 55, as many as you want, after maxing out one level 55 character.

 

They could remove all types of death penalty to make it completely non-punitive....I could go on.

 

Many changes could be made that one might say would not effect others, only you....but how would it effect their overall view of the game?

 

Is there such a thing as too easy? When it becomes too easy to change jobs in a game, does that job become less meaningful?

 

The idea that ACs are classes or not is speculative. That is up to each individual and how they view the system. The idea that it will no negative or positive impact if implemented...well...

 

I think that any sensible person has to concede that there are benefits...and detriments. Which will outweigh which?

 

Preventing AC change now or pointing out it is permanent means nothing IMO. Most of the latest changes to the game prove that once permanent changes are no longer so, and pretty much anything seems to be on the table of consideration. IMO it is silly to even mention it.

 

 

The question we should ask IMO....what effect would this change on the game population? Will it be welcomed or derided? Accepted or rejected?

 

In the end this is the only important question IMO.

 

The effect? How about more end game diversity? People getting more involved with a single character. People participating in more end game content to get gear for both of their advance classes. Instead of having to level the same class for the opposite ac, people could spend that time to level a whole new class, or do other things like datacron hunting, achievements, ect. We all know its not that hard to level, but its not about how hard it is, its time consuming, and a huge throw off to have to level the same class twice for a different AC.

 

Would it be welcomed? I strongly believe so. I mean this is has been a popular question since this game was first shown. There was a video someone posted awhile back even showing that the devs said that they were going to allow AC changes before the game was created so people who made the mistake of choosing an advance class that they didnt like could fix that with some consequences if it happens many times (like spending lots of credits or cartel coins). The simple fact is that this game can allow AC changes without it crossing that invisible rule of no class changes that most MMORPGS follow.

[Ratajack]

Would it be welcomed? I strongly believe so. I mean this is has been a popular question since this game was first shown. There was a video someone posted awhile back even showing that the devs said that they were going to allow AC changes before the game was created so people who made the mistake of choosing an advance class that they didnt like could fix that with some consequences if it happens many times (like spending lots of credits or cartel coins). The simple fact is that this game can allow AC changes without it crossing that invisible rule of no class changes that most MMORPGS follow.

 

The devs were considering allowing class changes before the game was released, but due to the OVERWHELMING majority being against class changes, the devs elected NOT to allow class changes. The devs are on record as stating that AC's are different classes. While you may not agree with the devs, they are the ruling body and they make the rules, including those governing classes.

 

Since the devs have stated that AC's are DIFFERENT classes, they cannot allow AC changes without crossing that invisible rule of no class changes that most MMO's follow.

[Ratajack]

It is an argument based on a flawed foundation.

 

IF ACs are separate classes...that much is obviously debatable with some folks, it really doesn't matter what Bioware thinks any more than it matters what someone else thinks besides you individually, that still has little to nothing to do with whether or not AC change should or could be allowed in this game.

 

Instead of discussing it logically, IMO, people keep resorting to this self feeding argument.

 

ACs are classes

No they are not

 

Since they are classes and class change is bad it should not be allowed here

They are not classes so it should be allowed here

 

Class change would hurt other players since players will not know the new class

It is not class change, and what other players do does not effect you

 

The real question, IMO, is whether or not the choice of AC is meaningful to the game population or not. If it isn't, than changing AC would be just as trivial as changing spec....and there are different degrees of meaningful, meaning one might accept a change early on (within 5 or 10 levels of initial choice) but not later on or unlimited.

 

If it is meaningful to the majority of the population, how would this change effect the overall views of the game with that playerbase?

 

There are many changes that could be made to the game that would make certain aspects of the game less meaningful. For instance, Bioware could start giving all characters on your account a 1 million EC a month allowance. Or allow you to roll a fresh 55, as many as you want, after maxing out one level 55 character.

 

They could remove all types of death penalty to make it completely non-punitive....I could go on.

 

Many changes could be made that one might say would not effect others, only you....but how would it effect their overall view of the game?

 

Is there such a thing as too easy? When it becomes too easy to change jobs in a game, does that job become less meaningful?

 

The idea that ACs are classes or not is speculative. That is up to each individual and how they view the system. The idea that it will no negative or positive impact if implemented...well...

 

I think that any sensible person has to concede that there are benefits...and detriments. Which will outweigh which?

 

Preventing AC change now or pointing out it is permanent means nothing IMO. Most of the latest changes to the game prove that once permanent changes are no longer so, and pretty much anything seems to be on the table of consideration. IMO it is silly to even mention it.

 

 

The question we should ask IMO....what effect would this change on the game population? Will it be welcomed or derided? Accepted or rejected?

 

In the end this is the only important question IMO.

 

You make many good points, but I think that the point I bolded is not one of them. Whether AC's are different classes or not is not speculative and up to the individual. The devs, the ruling body of this game, are on record as stating that the different AC's are different classes, and they have been consistent with those statements since before this game was released. To say that whether or not AC's are different classes is up to the individual would be like saying that is up to the individual playing WOW whether or not mage and warlock are different classes. The devs make the rules and define classes, not the players.

 

Individual players may not agree and may want to consider AC's as different specs of the same class, but their views do not trump those of the devs.

 

Will it be easier to code a change from marauder to juggernaut than it would to code a change from marauder to mercenary? Possibly, and maybe even probably. Only the devs know what flags are attached to our characters when we choose our AC and how difficult it would be to change those flags.

[Ratajack]

Not sure how many times this poster has to be told that "the devs" can make any change to the game they want, regardless of how vociferously some posters claim they shouldn't simply because it's always been this way.

 

Your turn.

 

I have acknowledged many times that the devs CAN change the game any way they want at any time.

 

I have also noted that they have NOT chosen to make any changes when it comes to allowing class changes.

[Ratajack]

Hence the thread looking for WHEN AC change will be allowed, since they've implied it was coming.

 

"Likely happen" does NOT mean "will happen". The devs implied NOTHING. You are choosing to interpret "likely happen" as "will happen". The devs also stated that even if they were considering something, that does NOT mean it will happen.

 

 

Was species change allowed pre-launch or within a year post launch? Or body type? Or hair color? Your last statement is obviously and easily provably false.

 

You are correct if you take that last statement out of context and only choose to read that last sentence. Any reasonable person would realize that since I was talking about class changes when I made that statement, that statement referred to class changes and not the game as a whole. Silly me, I forgot to take into account certain individuals. Allow me to correct that statement to make it more understandable for those individuals.

 

Yes, the devs CAN change the rules and mechanics anytime they choose. They have NOT chosen to do so with regards to class changes since before launch.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Ratajack

[Ratajack]

Thanks for agreeing with me.

 

I agree with you on nothing. I simply noted that while MMO's may be ever changing, the devs have NOT changed the mechanics regarding class changes, nor have they said anything regarding changing their stance that AC's are DIFFERENT classes.

 

Gotta stop you there, at least you understand that AC change doesn't affect other players. Especially with the restrictions myself and many others have provided. What you are doing now, is comparing it to field respec, which can be changed on the fly. Which is something nobody is asking for. You have to stop with this mindset that AC change would be available with a click of a button with no restrictions.

 

Where did I even mention changing class on the fly, or even changing class multiple times? You are deliberately misrepresenting what I said in order to muddy the waters.

 

We are not talking about a SINGLE person changing class. According to you, we are talking about MULTITUDES of people changing class. While a single person may not interact with the majority of the players, multitudes of people changing class would mean that in all likelihood, every player in the game would be affected by someone who changed class.

 

If you wish to backpedal and claim that it would not be multitudes of people changing class, but rather a few people, then I would ask why change the existing game mechanics for "a few people"?

 

 

You seem to forget that going DPS spec on a sin or a jugg is faster for solo/leveling. Therefore people can play all the way to level 55 without ever touching that taunt button(hell even tanks don't use it now.). So that talking point, is nufflied.

 

It is poosible to play all the way to max level without using a heal spell or a taunt if you level as DPS, but I'm betting that even most players who choose to level as DPS will be familiar with their taunts (or heals) are and will have used them. Show me a tanking class that even has a heal or a healing class that even has a taunt.

 

Show me a tank who doesn't use their taunt and I will show you a BAD tank. Every tank I play regularly with knows and USES their taunt. Tanks may not use taunt as part of a normal rotation, but every tank needs to know where their taunt button is and when to use it. Heck, I use taunt on my assassin when I'm DPS'ing to protect my healer if he accidentally pulls aggro.

 

There are tool-tips explaining what each ability does, don't try to lie to us and say that the game doesn't provide info on what each talent and skill does. It gives you all the info that is required, you are grasping at straws now.

 

Tool-tips do NOT provide the kind of training and experience with skills that a player will gain while leveling and are a poor substitute for the leveling process.

 

The thing with level 15, is you don't go far into the talent tree at all to get a sense of what healing is like. If you were an operative healer at level 15, you would think it's horrible. Even though it's probably the best healing class in the game as of now. In order to get a full grasp of the potential that your AC can do, it would have to be in the level 35-45 range. Anything below pretty much tells you nothing.

 

Just so you know, there is a difference between a sorc DPS and a Merc DPS, even though they are both ranged.

 

I never said all ranged classes play exactly the same, but the general ranged play style is the same, just as not all melee classes play exactly the same, but the general melee play style is the same. It should not take too long for a player to realize that they do not like melee and maybe a ranged class would be more their style, or vice versa.

 

You should not need to know exactly how a given class will play at end game, or even level 35-45, to know if you prefer ranged or melee.

 

Since you want to claim that you cannot know if you like your class til at least level 35-45, you must also acknowledge that a player cannot know if they will like sorcerer or not till at least level 35-45. That player may know they do not like melee, so they may not want to switch to assassin. They may, however, want to change their class to mercenary, another ranged class. If we are going to allow class changes at levels as high as 35-45 or higher, then why should the person who knows they do not like melee, but maybe wants to try another ranged class have to re-roll?

[Ratajack]

Are we ever going to get a gold post on this thread? It's gone on WAY too long without some kind of Bioware acknowledgement.

 

I do not expect to see a dev post as I do not think the devs want to touch this issue with ten foot lightsaber.

 

If the devs do decide to make a statement, I would expect it to be along the lines of the ambiguous statement made in November 2012, which some see as a promise that we will have class changes and some see as a "soft no".

[Ratajack]

Thats the only reason I keep checking this thread is to see if we get a dev post, then I get sucked into reading and commenting.

 

Since the lack of an indicator that there is a dev post next to the title of the thread on the general discussion page tells us there has been no dev post, I find this hard to believe.

 

In other words, no little yellow symbol next to thread title means no dev post, so no need to continue to check the thread for a dev post.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Ratajack

[LordArtemis]

You make many good points, but I think that the point I bolded is not one of them. Whether AC's are different classes or not is not speculative and up to the individual. The devs, the ruling body of this game, are on record as stating that the different AC's are different classes, and they have been consistent with those statements since before this game was released. To say that whether or not AC's are different classes is up to the individual would be like saying that is up to the individual playing WOW whether or not mage and warlock are different classes. The devs make the rules and define classes, not the players.

 

Individual players may not agree and may want to consider AC's as different specs of the same class, but their views do not trump those of the devs.

 

Will it be easier to code a change from marauder to juggernaut than it would to code a change from marauder to mercenary? Possibly, and maybe even probably. Only the devs know what flags are attached to our characters when we choose our AC and how difficult it would be to change those flags.

 

An individuals views always trump someone elses views when it comes to that individual. With all due respect to say anything different is ridiculous.

 

The devs stated that visual progression was vital to the game and it's design, and allowing cross class appearance would violate the very intent of the visual progression model and would not be healthy for the title. I disagreed. There is no longer visual progression.

 

The devs do not give me my opinion. Nor does anyone else. I am not a sheep. I'm willing to bet that applies to just about anyone.

 

You make your own opinion. It is trumped by nothing and no one....YOU choose to change that opinion based on what someone else thinks, but that is a choice YOU make.

 

And that was my point. AC being a class is a personal view....the devs do not define it, I do not define it, you do not define it with respect to a persons perception of it.

 

That individual defines it. To suggest otherwise is just wrong.

 

Now, if you want to talk about whether that definition is correct or sensible....that is another matter entirely.

 

One can argue that the devs see them as fundamentally different class designs. After all they said so. One can not argue that you should see them as classes because the devs say they are classes.

 

You see them as you want to see them. Devs define classes for the game. They do not define them for you.

Edited August 11, 2013 by LordArtemis