ETA on Advanced Class change?

[astrobearx]

Has ANY dev EVER said ANYTHING to contradict those statements that AC's are different classes? No. In over a year and a half, NOT ONE dev has EVER given any indication that AC are anything but different classes.

 

missed my point again, you need to learn how to comprehend what im saying man.

 

my point is that the devs have a tendency to say one thing then turn around and say sometime else or lie went they really meant something else. in fact, let use AC change for example,i believe that in this thread we have seen a the Devs quotes pre 2.0 do exactly that, they say AC change was on the way then went nah we're not doing AC change then went to back to we probably gonna do it.

 

i seen politicians that maintain their words tighter than swtor dev team. AC were called "classes" because at the time they probably didnt want to bother with AC changing or etc. later on, they probably change their opinion on it and then decided that AC isnt really it OWN SEPARATE CLASS but just SUBSETS and figured that AC change is acceptable...until they change their mind again and said no to AC....THEN said they are reconsider or whatever political jungian BW spewed.

 

 

 

TL;DR or DCP (Didnt Comprehend the Post)

 

swtor dev team constantly say things that were outright lies or misrepresent a something when put on the spot. we have seen MANY times that the dev team, community manager and etc apologies because they didnt worded what they said exactly. to actually believe that AC is truly is its own separate classes is ridiculous as it would have its own unique features that isnt tied into anything other classes from either factions.

 

their word is ironically as trustworthy as a forum member getting his or her news from a fan website.at least with the forum member have an excuse as they are reading unfounded rumors that the fan sites founded when they datamined for the game. bioware on the other hand, have no excuse.

Edited August 3, 2013 by astrobearx

[Ratajack]

In July of 2011, at a Comic Con interview with a couple prominent reps of the game including the exec producer and James Ohlen (not fired yet as far as I know), the devs were saying "we will allow advanced class changes" and explained how it would work. This is <6 months before the release of the game, where do you get "The devs decided long before this game was released that they would not allow..." from? Did they change their minds the day after comic con? Is six months a long time to you?

 

I would consider MONTHS before the game was released to be long before the game was released. The devs decided after that statement and still months before the game was released NOT to allow class changes. Whether you consider months to be a long time or not does not negate the devs decision NOT to allow class changes. A decision which was made BEFORE this game ever saw release.

[ekwalizer]

and that means what again?

 

swg= sandbox. a sandbox games has a chance to attract less players due tot eh fact that most modern players are used to theme park. SWG last from 2003 to 2011.

 

swtor is a theme park game that is seriously lacking in QoL things that other games start with well near the first couple of months of launch. swtor is dec 2011 (which is funny because swg closed on the same month) and went f2p less within a year. it is only now that the game (with the original devs and alot of their silly rules are gone btw) is the game starting to flourish .

 

 

those are the conclusions you need to find ironic

 

 

edit, there is no such thing as a industry norm. what you meant to say "this isnt what WoW does, so we cant do it either"

 

I'm not going to discount anything you said here. I just want to point out that Lucas is also out of the way. Any student of SWG already knows that SOE took a lot of flack for decisions forced on them by LA.

 

So, while the original Devs are out of the picture, so is Lucas. Which, in my mind, is a good thing.

[ekwalizer]

Do you mean the game that does NOT allow CLASS changes? Let me make sure I understand this. You want the game that does not allow class changes and still exists to allow class changes and you use as a justification another game that no longer exists did allow class changes?

 

Actually, what he is talking about is the Exclusivity Clause that EA puts into all their contracts. SOE fully expected that SWG and TOR would run along side eachother because they had vastly different player-bases. it was literally about 3 weeks before EA announced the Pre-Order of this that SWG was notified that they would be forced to shut down.

[Ratajack]

missed my point again, you need to learn how to comprehend what im saying man.

 

my point is that the devs have a tendency to say one thing then turn around and say sometime else or lie went they really meant something else. in fact, let use AC change for example,i believe that in this thread we have seen a the Devs quotes pre 2.0 do exactly that, they say AC change was on the way then went nah we're not doing AC change then went to back to we probably gonna do it.

 

i seen politicians that maintain their words tighter than swtor dev team. AC were called "classes" because at the time they probably didnt want to bother with AC changing or etc. later on, they probably change their opinion on it and then decided that AC isnt really it OWN SEPARATE CLASS but just SUBSETS and figured that AC change is acceptable...until they change their mind again and said no to AC....THEN said they are reconsider or whatever political jungian BW spewed.

 

 

 

TL;DR or DCP (Didnt Comprehend the Post)

 

swtor dev team constantly say things that were outright lies or misrepresent a something when put on the spot. we have seen MANY times that the dev team, community manager and etc apologies because they didnt worded what they said exactly. to actually believe that AC is truly is its own separate classes is ridiculous as it would have its own unique features that isnt tied into anything other classes from either factions.

 

their word is ironically as trustworthy as a forum member getting his or her news from a fan website.at least with the forum member have an excuse as they are reading unfounded rumors that the fan sites founded when they datamined for the game. bioware on the other hand, have no excuse.

 

I completely understand that you want to claim that the dev team lies. The factual evidence that NO dev has ever contradicted their statements that AC's are different classes in over a year and a half, however, tells me that this is one instance in which they have not "lied" or "flip-flopped".

[Spatology]

I'm done with this. Have a nice thread.

 

[astrobearx]

I'm not going to discount anything you said here. I just want to point out that Lucas is also out of the way. Any student of SWG already knows that SOE took a lot of flack for decisions forced on them by LA.

 

So, while the original Devs are out of the picture, so is Lucas. Which, in my mind, is a good thing.

i did not know that, which i guess make sense since swg closed when swtor opened

 

and..

 

indeed, lucas art did ALOT OF DAMAGE to stars wars and i was honest one of the few people that actually cheered that SW gaming license was given to EA.

[ekwalizer]

I also do not have a "beloved main" (a ridiculous concept, IMO, since it's just a collections of pixels and database entries), but just because you and I don't does not mean others don't.

 

I get your point but I think you missed mine. The person I quoted was asking about people who love their main but hate the AC. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't often play toons that I don't like and if I don't play it, it can't be my main.

[astrobearx]

I completely understand that you want to claim that the dev team lies. The factual evidence that NO dev has ever contradicted their statements that AC's are different classes in over a year and a half, however, tells me that this is one instance in which they have not "lied" or "flip-flopped".

 

as far as we know though. i mean, if the ACs were truly its own classes and totally unique and never should be messed with: then did bioware even consider AC change?to me this infer that AC are just subsets classes, not actual classes like the main 8 storyline classes. i mean, bioware will never said, imply hinted or deserved a jedi knight to become a jedi consular or even offer a option to do so because those classes are fundamentally different. there are no similarity between the two, they dont share the same story,the same stat and etc.AC on the other hand, both share the same story, character,same stat and etc. of course though, this is me and you debating on the word of devs that are no longer even apart of the swtor team.

 

 

therefore what we are discussing about is really moot. now im gonna concentrate pvp on my shadow (i keep missing the pvp join window because i posting on this thread lol)

 

im gonna end this to say we gonna have to agree to disagree

Edited August 3, 2013 by astrobearx

[Savej]

I would consider MONTHS before the game was released to be long before the game was released. The devs decided after that statement and still months before the game was released NOT to allow class changes. Whether you consider months to be a long time or not does not negate the devs decision NOT to allow class changes. A decision which was made BEFORE this game ever saw release.

 

Ok well I guess you're very young. Compared to the development time of the game (possibly over 60 mos), 2-4 mos is a very small fraction of that time. Making a significant change in that amount of time would qualify as "at the last minute" to me... But whatever, I see we're probably not going to agree on anything.

[Ratajack]

as far as we know though. i mean, if the ACs were truly its own classes and totally unique and never should be messed with: then did bioware even consider AC change?to me this infer that AC are just subsets classes, not actual classes like the main 8 storyline classes. i mean, bioware will never said, imply hinted or deserved a jedi knight to become a jedi consular or even offer a option to do so because those classes are fundamentally different. there are no similarity between the two, they dont share the same story,the same stat and etc.AC on the other hand, both share the same story, character,same stat and etc. of course though, this is me and you debating on the word of devs that are no longer even apart of the swtor team.

 

 

therefore what we are discussing about is really moot. now im gonna concentrate pvp on my shadow (i keep missing the pvp join window because i posting on this thread lol)

 

im gonna end this to say we gonna have to agree to disagree

 

I would guess that they made that statement in November 2012 in response to the constant clamoring for AC changes, not because they "changed their minds" about AC's being different classes. Note that nowhere in the statement made in November 2012 do the devs even hint at AC's not being different classes.

 

 

Also note, that they have not uttered a single peep about class changes since that statement, despite this almost 300 page thread and countless other threads asking for class changes.

 

Given the numerous statements made stating that AC's are different and separate classes, and their complete and total silence on this matter since that statement from November 2012, I would guess that class changes will not be happening anytime in the foreseeable future.

[Ratajack]

Ok well I guess you're very young. Compared to the development time of the game (possibly over 60 mos), 2-4 mos is a very small fraction of that time. Making a significant change in that amount of time would qualify as "at the last minute" to me... But whatever, I see we're probably not going to agree on anything.

 

Actually, I am nowhere near "very young". I've probably got kids older than many of the players asking for class changes.

 

I do not know whether or not the devs ever actually implemented class changes during beta, or if they just talked about adding AC changes. If they never actually implemented class changes, then there really was no significant change made.

[Soluss]

as i said before, the devs have said ALOT of things and the did a face heel on or were just plain wrong on and only said what they said as a excuse for something. using their quotes as a form of absolutism (in any context to support or counter a point) is stupid. these forums and constantly hitted with devs , community manager and alike saying "well [x] work like [y], but then later say [well [x] really worked like [z]"

 

i cant believe both sides is

 

1. using the word of a dev that was fired and no longer relevant to the new dev team

 

2. they are using the often shifty devs words as a form a certainty/ the word of god that will never be broken.

 

 

the DEVs do LIE or "misrepresent" something that later they actually go "my bad when i said that, i actually meant this"

 

On certain things maybe but in this case they are defining classes. You cant say a dev is wrong when he defines what classes are. They make the game. It also does not matter that this particular dev no longer works for the company. He was part of the team that created the game. The entire team worked by the same definitions. I don't think you will ever find a case of an MMO redefining what is and is not a "class".

 

This is not to say they wont change the rule , oh excuse me "mechanic", but that still does not change that they are still classes in their own right.

[Soluss]

missed my point again, you need to learn how to comprehend what im saying man.

 

my point is that the devs have a tendency to say one thing then turn around and say sometime else or lie went they really meant something else. in fact, let use AC change for example,i believe that in this thread we have seen a the Devs quotes pre 2.0 do exactly that, they say AC change was on the way then went nah we're not doing AC change then went to back to we probably gonna do it.

 

i seen politicians that maintain their words tighter than swtor dev team. AC were called "classes" because at the time they probably didnt want to bother with AC changing or etc. later on, they probably change their opinion on it and then decided that AC isnt really it OWN SEPARATE CLASS but just SUBSETS and figured that AC change is acceptable...until they change their mind again and said no to AC....THEN said they are reconsider or whatever political jungian BW spewed.

 

 

 

TL;DR or DCP (Didnt Comprehend the Post)

 

swtor dev team constantly say things that were outright lies or misrepresent a something when put on the spot. we have seen MANY times that the dev team, community manager and etc apologies because they didnt worded what they said exactly. to actually believe that AC is truly is its own separate classes is ridiculous as it would have its own unique features that isnt tied into anything other classes from either factions.

 

their word is ironically as trustworthy as a forum member getting his or her news from a fan website.at least with the forum member have an excuse as they are reading unfounded rumors that the fan sites founded when they datamined for the game. bioware on the other hand, have no excuse.

 

They have also said that they wanted to do 16 classes but could not afford to do 16 stories. The only reason we have AC system, at all, is because they didn't want to do 16 stories. I don't think these are lies, misspoken, or whatever your argument is. The devs view AC as different classes whether you like it or not.

[Andryah]

I would guess that they made that statement in November 2012 in response to the constant clamoring for AC changes, not because they "changed their minds" about AC's being different classes. Note that nowhere in the statement made in November 2012 do the devs even hint at AC's not being different classes.

 

 

Also note, that they have not uttered a single peep about class changes since that statement, despite this almost 300 page thread and countless other threads asking for class changes.

 

Given the numerous statements made stating that AC's are different and separate classes, and their complete and total silence on this matter since that statement from November 2012, I would guess that class changes will not be happening anytime in the foreseeable future.

 

Accurate Assessment IMO.

 

Other MMOs have had a "base" class at level 1, where you pick a spec class a bit later on (DAoC for example, at level 5) and once you pick the spec class.. it's locked for life.

 

Changing AC IS changing character spec class. There is no precedent in the genre to change classes in any MMO where there are in fact spec classes. Even WoW (who has monetized just about everything in terms of players changing their characters) won't touch that one with a ten foot pole.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

They have also said that they wanted to do 16 classes but could not afford to do 16 stories. The only reason we have AC system, at all, is because they didn't want to do 16 stories. I don't think these are lies, misspoken, or whatever your argument is. The devs view AC as different classes whether you like it or not.

 

I agree.

 

If they did do 16 stories, and never launched with "base classes" and a "spec class" choice at level 10, would we even have all this whining and complaining about wanting to change classes? Probably some.. but not to the extent we see in this long running thread. People started with a base class, and even though they were told choosing their AC is permanent... they feel somehow entitled to demand a "do over". The entitlement is baseless IMO. Choices have consequences, even inside virtual worlds of MMOs. Suck it up IMO.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Andryah

[branmakmuffin]

Changing AC IS changing character spec class. There is no precedent in the genre to change classes in any MMO where there are in fact spec classes. Even WoW (who has monetized just about everything in terms of players changing their characters) won't touch that one with a ten foot pole.

What "genre" are you talking about? MMOs? Theme park MMOs? Sci fi MMOs?

 

Plus, even if true, we're talking about a game, not U.S. Supreme Court decisions. "Precedent" is an irrelevant concept.

[Andryah]

What "genre" are you talking about? MMOs? Theme park MMOs? Sci fi MMOs?

 

Plus, even if true, we're talking about a game, not U.S. Supreme Court decisions. "Precedent" is an irrelevant concept.

 

MMOs is the genre.

 

The term "precedent" is not a court term unless you put the word "legal" in front of it. In this context.. the term is "commercial precedent". So don't go all "supreme court" on me.

 

And like it or not.. the absence of precedent in a genre is relevant. Why? Because it goes to player expectations (in the absence of feeling entitled).

 

There is no commercial expectation of a spec class change in this genre, because it simply is not offered by MMOs where there are actually spec classes.

 

There plenty of expressions of entitlement for a "do over" for sure.. but so what. There are also people who feel entitled to play for free, with subscriber access levels too. Such is the value of self-entitled feelings ----> ZERO.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Andryah

[branmakmuffin]

MMOs is the genre.

And as I said, the concept of precedent is irrelevant. One thing and one thing only matters: will it make money?

 

You can try to spin it as some kind of social movement, but in the end, it's just a game.

Edited August 3, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Ratajack]

And as I said, the concept of precedent is irrelevant. One thing and one thing only matters: will it make money?

 

You can try to spin it as some kind of social movement, but in the end, it's just a game.

 

Will selling BIS gear and instant level 55's "make money"? I'm betting that selling either one would "make money". That does not mean it's a good idea to sell them, even if this is "just a game".

[branmakmuffin]

Will selling BIS gear and instant level 55's "make money"? I'm betting that selling either one would "make money". That does not mean it's a good idea to sell them, even if this is "just a game".

Will selling BiS gear in the CM make money overall, or will if drive too many people away to make up for the added sales? Same reasoning applies to AC change.

 

If it makes money overall, then it's good for the game. Period. The game does not exist to please you or me or any other player. It exists to make money.

[MahneWarrior]

Will selling BIS gear and instant level 55's "make money"? I'm betting that selling either one would "make money". That does not mean it's a good idea to sell them, even if this is "just a game".

 

Thing is, deep down we all know it will come to this. SWTOR simply came out too late. I mean even Destiny and EQ Next are half the games they claim to be, honestly as an MMO player short from light sabers and star wars what will be the point?

 

Personally I am not a fan of either of those games, but I do see how if they can deliver on half of their promises many players looking for something fresh and new will jump ship. Remember, sadly the investors have control over the game. I mean look at the release, despite the countless posts during both closed and open beta begging Bioware to delay the game, that it was not ready. Sadly the investors wanted a return on their investment.

 

Once they speak, EAware will be forced to jump. I do think maybe not in the near future, but sometimes before the year is out, they will either add AC change, or an option to hit max level via the CM.

[branmakmuffin]

Once they speak, EAware will be forced to jump. I do think maybe not in the near future, but sometimes before the year is out, they will either add AC change, or an option to hit max level via the CM.

And if either or both happens, so what? No one's gonna make someone who doesn't want to do one or both do either.

 

I'll say it again: it's just a game. If someone stops liking it, they will move on to another game.

[ekwalizer]

Since you can predict the future so infallibly, why aren't you out there solving crimes and making millions at the race track?

 

The same could easily be said for the "it will be good for the game" crowd.

[LordArtemis]

Give me ONE.

 

Seriously, we have 282 pages. If you know that there's a good reason, give it to me.

 

I'll give one sensible one, at least sensible IMO. The reaction to allowing it would probably be pretty negative overall with the remaining hardcore/traditional players overall.

 

It's just a guess, no more than that, but I think it's a sensible one. This is a pretty sensitive item.

 

Note that that does not mean I think it should not be offered....I would naturally prefer it not be offered, but if the majority wants it I can't stand in the way of that.

 

But I think most reasonable people have to concede this will likely not be a very popular change with the hardcore community.

 

Note...I realize that the hardcore/traditional player community is shrinking every day. So at some point the impact of that playerbase will likely be negligible.

Edited August 4, 2013 by LordArtemis