Events bringing the trolls out from under their bridges, and how to fix it.

[Stib_]

The quests have a [PVP] Tag

They take place in a contested, free-for-all area

The reward for completing them is WZ commendations

 

You can call them PVE as much as you like - it doesn't make it true.

 

Well, it seems to be a big difference in how people look at quests. There are those, who look at a quest, as what needs to be done there, and there are people, who are looking at name tags, places, and rewards.

 

Here or in another topic, i challenged the defenders, to convince me of their right, but so, that they can not argue with the name, place, and reward of the quests. Needless to say, there was no arguing there.

 

I can, and have written about the "pvp" quests in the Gree event without their names, places, or rewards. And it seemed like a generic pve quest, to me at least...

 

Those, who see an npc killing, object scanning, and resource gathering quest, that can be soloed, as a pvp quest, are...people too.

 

Those, who say it's a pve quest placed in a pvp area by bad design, are people too, but the ones i agree with.

 

You can call them PVP as much as you like - it doesn't make it true.

[cycao]

You are a psychopath. Get professional help.

 

People do PvP because they love the challenge player opponents provide, as opposed to NPC opponents.

 

People who do PvP because they can harm and humiliate others are griefers, and they have no place in any MMO. In fact, griefers have no place in civil society at all - they have to change their ways or end up getting locked in.

 

Since doing thousands of all the warzones can get bland this event is somewhat of a breath of fresh air to PvPers since this area was implemented to them. You get warned upon entering and this is from my pov from being on a PvP server, is that you assume the risk when doing these missions. This is a recurring event, these two quests can be skipped.

 

I kill anyone and anything in this FFA area. Its a FFA after all the same rules apply to outlaws den, the area can be skipped just as easy as the one on Ilum. Also when I do kill someone and rage I normally just move on but when the personal attacks come out then my empathy is lost.

[danielearley]

I generally play PVE and do the occasional WZ.... Not sure if that classes me as PVE or PVP, I don't think about it TBH.

 

With regards to the PVP quests in Gree, I'm amazed at the fact you don't expect to get attacked. If you walk into a WZ flagged for PVP you get attacked!

 

It's generally the case that you will only get attacked if your opponents feel they have the advantage, that's not griefing its strategy. if your in a large group of Pubs and there are a few imps around it's unlikely the imps will attack vice versa.

 

I would admittedly like to see same faction PVP removed, as I've accidently shot and killed and ally whilst trying to help others of my faction

 

If you have a problem with the same person attacking you all the time, then change instance.

 

My only complaint would be the ability to heal the Droids you have to kill with the blue defense thing, as this is in a PVE area and should not be allowed!

[ClavisN]

Since doing thousands of all the warzones can get bland this event is somewhat of a breath of fresh air to PvPers since this area was implemented to them.

 

Why?

 

It's nothing new. There alway was Outlaw's Den. And contrary to Illum, no PVEer is forced to enter The Den.

But I never saw any notable number of PvPer hanging out there.

 

No, my impression still stands that the illum gankfest happens because the quests provide the gankers with easy prey.

[cycao]

Why?

 

It's nothing new. There alway was Outlaw's Den. And contrary to Illum, no PVEer is forced to enter The Den.

But I never saw any notable number of PvPer hanging out there.

 

No, my impression still stands that the illum gankfest happens because the quests provide the gankers with easy prey.

 

Their are no mission that reward warzone commendations other than random chests that you find in outlaws den. This area was created for the PvP community. I love the tears it feeds me, gives me focus. The fact that people complain about a PvP FFA area where PvP has happened makes it clear to me why things are going carebear for PvP.

[xxIncubixx]

But they aren't PvE quests.

This is the one sticking point throughout this whole argument.

It doesn't matter how you perceive these quests or if you think they are PVE there are some facts you simply cannot get away from:

 

The quests have a [PVP] Tag

They take place in a contested, free-for-all area

The reward for completing them is WZ commendations

 

You can call them PVE as much as you like - it doesn't make it true.

 

yes they are pve quests... you can do the quests without killing anyone plus killing people doesnt really give u anything anyway since the achievement "kill players on ilum" doesnt really update.

[cycao]

yes they are pve quests... you can do the quests without killing anyone plus killing people doesnt really give u anything anyway since the achievement "kill players on ilum" doesnt really update.

 

I can give it to you that these are more PvE than PvP (even though they give you warzone coms) but they just happen to be in a PvP area, since this area was implemented for PvP players as in it was there way of "giving back" after removing Ilum.

[Blackardin]

Some background. I just started playing SWTOR a few months ago, and when the last Gree event came along I was not high enough level on my first toon to participate. Ever since then, I've been very excited at the prospect of joining in on a community-wide event, as those types of things are rarely seen outside of MMOs. When this current session of the Gree event was announced, I worked very hard to get my second toon (the first is already 55), up to a minimum of level 45 so I could participate in the event from both sides, Republic and Imperial. My expectation was that events like these would bring out the best in a community, and foster the sort of connection, esprit de corps, and cooperation that you'd see in other less involved events in other types of communities, but on a vast MMO scale. Imagine my disappointment... my frustration really... as instead seeing perhaps some of the worst sorts of behavior in gaming communities on display as the most constant and memorable fixture of this event.

 

First, let me say that I recognize that no all players are bad. In fact, the overhelming majority just go into this event intending to quest, at minumum, as if it was any other mission series or dialies. There are, however, a small but fiercely dedicated percentage that insist on doing whatever they can to ruin other people's fun. Much of this problem, I think, stems from a set of contradictory goals for players... largely from the "PvP" section of the event.

 

There are two missions which are flagged as "PvP," and occur only within the PvP area, but are, ostensibly, PvE missions... requiring no intra-player activity whatsoever to complete. If not for occuring in a PvP area, there is nothing "PvP" about these missions. Most players take these missions and do exactly what they objectives tell them to do. Go here, kill some droids, go home. However, as you'd expect, there are players who will forego any missions or objectives, and merely walk around killing other unsuspecting players who are only there to quest.

 

Now, I have heard arguements from dedicated PvP'ers that walking into a PvP area should cause some expectation of being attacked and killed by other players. While I understand the arguement, the counterarguements are simply too numerous to bother repeating here. Because the missions do not require any interaction between players, ultimately, there is a conflict of interest here. Questers, which make up the vast majority of players (significantly moreso on the PvE server I am on), only go into the PvP area because a quest tells them too, and the quest has nothing to do with PvP combat. Dedicated PvP players go into the PvP area specifically because their intended targets do not fight back, which makes working towards otherwise difficult achievements much much easier.. and of course griefers merely go into the area to ensure that other players simply can't complete their mission objectives. In other words "griefers gonna grief."

 

There is no reason, and no reward, for a quester to attack another player in the PvP zone nor any reason to believe they'll be attacked at random while working mission objectives, and PvP players get no reward other than progress toward an achievement. Unsuspecting PvE'ers make an easy target for a dedicated group of PvP'ers.

Ultimately, this has lead to a situation of predation on questers, and to a lack of any sort of enjoyment in this event for anyone but the most rotten fruit of the community.

 

 

There are several solutions that could be recommended to remedy the problem of conflicting interests.

 

One of the most simple solutions, especially on PvE servers, it to entirely remove the open-world PvP area of the map. Leave the objectives, mind you, but simply remove the automatic flagging for free-for-all PvP. Since the quests do not require any player-on-player action as it is, it changes nothing in regards to how the quest is run. While certainly this removes some of the enjoyment from predatory PvP players and griefers, it's otherwise universally beneficial for the whole server. However, my feeling is that this does remove an opportunity for some honest PvP action for PvP players looking for some event-worthy experiences.

 

A second solution. Simply rework the missions so that all current missions occur outside the dedicated PvP arena. Since the objectives are PvE objectives anyway, there's no real reason to have them occur in the PvP arena at all. This lets PvP players keep their arena, including the FFA fights, ... not much different than having the Outlaw's Den on Tattooine... but ensures PvE questers have no reason to go in there. But here too is a missed opportunity.

 

A third solution. Remove all existing PvE mission objectives from the PvP arena. Leave the PvP quests active in the PvP arena, but beef the missions up to include actual PvP objectives. If you're going to have a mission marked "PvP," maybe it should have some objective that requires you to at least interact with, let alone kill, other players. Maybe build in some sort of FFA group objectives. "Kill X number of opposite faction players." or "Kill X number of your faction's players." Or something more creative. Basically give PvP players something to satiate their bloodlust, but put them on equal footing in engagements with other PvP players, instead of preying on hapless questers to get their kicks. Then, in place of the reworked PvP missions, add 2 new dedicated PvE missions. Perhaps a Heroic 2+, or something unique. This way, PvP players get actually PvP event content, and PvE players have more to do away from the PvP'ers.

 

Now, any of these 3 solutions eliminates PvP player predation and griefing. Any one would greatly improve the player experience during the event and make it something more memorable for interesting missions than for anger and frustration at the worst a community has to offer. However, since they event is being reworked anyway for the future level 55 interpretation, why not take the opportunity to do something better with it, as the third solution suggests?

 

Is blogging allowed on these forums?

 

This is a blog about someones personal experiences and how they "feel" about them,not a valid analysis of game function. Not sure why people insist on telling us all about their day. ;p

 

PvPing in a PvP zone is not "bad behavior" LOL. Rather then emote all over the boards, try changing instances. There is always one open where one can avoid fighting.....and

[Brunner_Venda]

Once you enter a PVP zone, you have volunteered to be my content. You signed right on the dotted line and waived all rights to forum complaining.

 

The Gree are here to study all combat, not just you kicking around a couple of droids in a one sided contest. They want to see fighting that includes assassin ganks, 4 on 1 murders, and oh yes, my solo hunting other people as they try desperately to escape.

 

PVP isn't griefing, it's just playing a different game. It's also a very good one in the opinion of those of us who play it. If not for the PVP zone missions, this event would have zero content for PVP players.

[ceryxp]

I don't PvP. I can't stand PvP. I've only ever done one WZ and that was to get rid of the mission from my log after 2.0. But I do do the PvP Gree missions, I don't PvP when I do them but I will try to fight back if I or someone in my party is attacked. I don't go around attacking people, imp or pub. The complaints about the FFA PvP need to stop. You know it's a free-for-all zone when you go in. You know this is the internet and a lot of people act on their worst behavior. If you don't want to deal with the griefers, gankers or just general PvP'ers then don't go into the area. Contrary to what some people think you do not need to complete those two mission to cap your Gree reputation.

 

That said, I do think there is one change BW could make that would improve the experience and that is to make it possible to drop your PvP flag immediately upon leaving the FFA PvP zone. It is very annoying to have to sit in a safe zone for five mins to drop your flag so you don't have to worry about someone attacking you while doing the non-PvP missions. Place a terminal inside the safe zones, you walk up, click it to drop your flag and can get back to running missions. By placing it in the safe zone it protects against abuse as you have to activate the elevator terminal to enter the safe zone, which can't be done in combat, so no running away and dropping flag just because you're getting your backside handed to you on a platter.

[TUXs]

yes they are pve quests... you can do the quests without killing anyone plus killing people doesnt really give u anything anyway since the achievement "kill players on ilum" doesnt really update.

 

Ever been in a warzone there cub? What do you consider every objective in a WZ to be?

 

I can win with ZERO kills!!! Know why? Because to Bioware, PvP needs a PvE objective. That doesn't make a WZ a PvE place anymore than the quests you mention.

[TUXs]

I can give it to you that these are more PvE than PvP (even though they give you warzone coms) but they just happen to be in a PvP area, since this area was implemented for PvP players as in it was there way of "giving back" after removing Ilum.

 

Bull!!! They're PvP missions because the threat of being attacked is always there! Ever cap a node in Civil War? Did you ever win a WZ by just killing players? They are PvP missions with PvE objectives, just like EVERY other Bioware PvP activity!

[well]

I agree to this.

 

I thought that PvP was about challenge.

 

It wasn't.

 

Don't judge all by some of the little kitties on the forum.Not all PVP players are whiny little princesses.The forum just seems to attract a lot.Better here than a WZ.Back OT.Even though it is on a PVE server it is a designated PVP area.That is on BW.It is their game.So you have to live with it.There is nothing wrong with the OP expressing his/her opinion.That is what forums are for.Just a note:Someone mention about jumping one player with 4 players.Sounds like some folks did a packet check and came up Epic Fail.

[kwthomas]

OP, you are the reason "trolls" come out. its a PVP quest. it clearly states such. if you expect any kind of amnesty you are severely lacking in brain power. it gives you 10 seconds to turn around so you DO NOT get flagged. once you pass that threshold you have forfeit all right to complain about PVP happening in a PVP ZONE. its quite simple to understand. you dont get to complain about same faction killing or good old fashioned repub on imp killing. its a PVP ZONE. dont like it? dont do the quest. sure it now means you cant get max rep from those two quests. there are also many ways around it... change instances... do those two dailies when server population is lower...make a group!

[Tommot]

There are no PvP objectives for these quests because of what initially happened on Illum with kill trading. Despite this, they are still 100% PvP quests. Why? Simply because they're labeled as such and provide PvP rewards. If that area was not a PvP zone, then Charging the Pylons would be incredibly easy and boring. The challenge is added because there ARE other people there who want to kill you. If you only want to do PvE, there are plenty of PvE only Gree quests. If you only want to do PvP, then you have that option too. If you're like me and want to do both, then you can play it all.

 

Makes perfect sense IMO. Dont go stepping on everyone elses fun just because you dont like to PvP when it's not like there's anyone there forcing you to do it. IMO, the OP is more of a troll than the people who go to PvP zones just to kill people.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Tommot

[tanerb]

I am totally OK with PVPing in that area but there needs to a balance. We were 4 55s doing that the other day and a single guy gave us hard time. He kept coming as we killed him and everytime he killed 2 or 3 of us easily because he was in PVP gear and we were not. If you are forcing PVE guys into PVP fine, but make it in a way that PVE guy has a chance 1vs1.

[Thundergulch]

I am totally OK with PVPing in that area but there needs to a balance. We were 4 55s doing that the other day and a single guy gave us hard time. He kept coming as we killed him and everytime he killed 2 or 3 of us easily because he was in PVP gear and we were not. If you are forcing PVE guys into PVP fine, but make it in a way that PVE guy has a chance 1vs1.

 

Nobody is FORCED to to any of these quests.

[TUXs]

I am totally OK with PVPing in that area but there needs to a balance. We were 4 55s doing that the other day and a single guy gave us hard time. He kept coming as we killed him and everytime he killed 2 or 3 of us easily because he was in PVP gear and we were not. If you are forcing PVE guys into PVP fine, but make it in a way that PVE guy has a chance 1vs1.

 

Gear up. One of you slackers must be able to PvP....right?

[tanerb]

Nobody is FORCED to to any of these quests.

 

So? That is a valid reason to do make them unfair? Here is my suggestion then. Whenever a PVP guy attacks a PVE guy, a 55 boss level indestructible creature will spawn and attack the PVP guy.

 

At the end no PVP guy is forced to attack a PVE guy, right?

[cycao]

I am totally OK with PVPing in that area but there needs to a balance. We were 4 55s doing that the other day and a single guy gave us hard time. He kept coming as we killed him and everytime he killed 2 or 3 of us easily because he was in PVP gear and we were not. If you are forcing PVE guys into PVP fine, but make it in a way that PVE guy has a chance 1vs1.

 

But no one is forcing PvP onto PvE players. If they roll into a FFA zone they are accepting the risk of being attacked in a FFA zone ffs.

[TUXs]

So? That is a valid reason to do make them unfair? Here is my suggestion then. Whenever a PVP guy attacks a PVE guy, a 55 boss level indestructible creature will spawn and attack the PVP guy.

 

At the end no PVP guy is forced to attack a PVE guy, right?

 

OMG LOL! First, four of you couldn't kill ONE player, so you want some random NPC to try to determine if a player is a PvEer or a PvPer, and then you want to punish the PvPer by having an NPC attack him? That's just STUPID!

[tanerb]

OMG LOL! First, four of you couldn't kill ONE player, so you want some random NPC to try to determine if a player is a PvEer or a PvPer, and then you want to punish the PvPer by having an NPC attack him? That's just STUPID!

 

Yes it is, just like allowing a PVP player slaughtering a PVE player due to gear advantage.

[TUXs]

Yes it is, just like allowing a PVP player slaughtering a PVE player due to gear advantage.

 

Your whining is lost on me. There were 4 of you, 1 of him. Despite ANY gear differential, you 4 should have owned him ANY day!!! Even if you all had equal gear, I have a feeling the result would have been the same.

[Jiminison]

No, you play because you love to grief other players

 

RED = Dead working as intended.

[xxIncubixx]

I can give it to you that these are more PvE than PvP (even though they give you warzone coms) but they just happen to be in a PvP area, since this area was implemented for PvP players as in it was there way of "giving back" after removing Ilum.

 

im just saying that bioware implemented something poorly yet again, they could have done it simple. adding another step on both quests "Kill 10 players".