Hunker Down/Entrench...

[Volxen]

Before I say anything... sniper isn't my main (main is immortal jugg), see sig below. I simply play sniper from time to time for giggles.

 

To address the original post: Entrench is for sure overpowered, long duration, and low cd. Anyone that thinks otherwise is deluding themselves into wishful thinking. But it is OP only in comparison to what other ranged classes DO NOT get. BTW, I don't want to say too much to fan the fires, but 23 sec long on a 45 sec cooldown? LOL, it can get MUCH better than that if you know what I mean....

 

That being said, I really would hate to see sniper nerfed. Simply put, sniper is a beautiful class. I just have to smile every time I look at my sniper skill trees, because there is so much synergy in the trees and the abilities fully support ranged gameplay, and controlling your opponents. The devs really did a good job on this class.

 

And I guess that is exactly why I do NOT want to see it gutted. Every other class should be brought up to the level of snipers, not the other way around. But beautiful things have a way of dying a horrible death in MMOs...

 

Yes, the other two ranged classes (and of course Merc in particular, as always) do need to be buffed up to the level of snipers (while not being carbon copies of snipers, of course). But of course, certain melee players would like to see snipers nerfed to the level of mercs so that they can always have an easy time and faceroll without effort. Hence this thread.

[Leolab]

Anyone with half a brain reading this thread is saying that the OP is running circles around NoTmrw.

 

God he is making you look like an idiot.

 

Carry on OP; I'm thoroughly enjoying seeing someone get destroyed by someone other than myself.

 

I'm going to have to call sockpuppetting on this guy. Seems to be the OP trying to make himself look more credible.

 

On-topic, I love Entrench. It's what makes my Sniper playable against all the CC out there. Don't nerf it.

[Polymerize]

I'm going to have to call sockpuppetting on this guy. Seems to be the OP trying to make himself look more credible.

 

On-topic, I love Entrench. It's what makes my Sniper playable against all the CC out there. Don't nerf it.

 

Another RE-RE walks in...

Edited May 22, 2013 by Polymerize

[Sharee]

I'm going to have to call sockpuppetting on this guy. Seems to be the OP trying to make himself look more credible.

 

You think he bought another swtor subscription just for that?

[Leolab]

You think he bought another swtor subscription just for that?

 

I've seen stupider.

[NoTomorrow]

Back to that reading comprehension thing. I've already addressed why I am sticking to GS. It's what I know best. Just because I don't play a sorc/sage or merc/commando, doesn't mean I don't have two eyes and can't make inferences about what it must be like to play said ac. But, beyond GS that is exactly what they would be... inferences not first-hand experience.

 

I assume you have played WoW. Everyone has. In the upper echelon of that PvP community they mostly talk about the classes they play and most of them (Talbadar, Reckful, Cdew, Zunniaki, Ziqo, and so-on) understand that they will be good no matter what comes of their class. That's why they all have balance in the forefront of their minds and actively try to suggest changes that will be good for the game. I am not saying I am as good as them in swtor or even close. What I am saying is, they aren't short-sighted and starting down the road to real class balance isn't something that should be frowned upon. They realize a balanced game means more people. More people means more competition. More competition means more fun for them individually. So in essence you are arguing against your own fun. If it stays this way, fotm status will be granted and thus the endless cycle of MMO class "balancing" will continue. I for one, am sick of that merry-go-round.

 

I mean really, I make a thread asking for a longer cd on entrench/hunker down and the voracity and vitriol you exhibit is sort of odd. It's one of the many cooldown's we have. Not the end-all-be-all of the class.

 

You are trying to borrow somebody else's authority, you are not trying to bring a point of view, an argumentation. You say say entrench CD is too short. Why shouldn't it be? Because you think it's too powerful? Too powerful in what context? against who?

 

Against ranged DPS? He has already rooted himself, take an advantage out of that and stay out of LoS while dotting him and using instant attacks.

 

Against healers? Healers don't have a damn right to whine about snipers and any other ranged DPS. Ranged DPS doesn't pose an existential threat to healers.

 

Against Melee DPS? As a melee DPS you rely less on CCing the sniper and more on using your defensive CD-s and debuffs against him. Obfuscate works wonders against MM, the spec that has lower entrench CD. Jugs got saber reflect, wonderful thing against ambush and other stuff. Both classes got saberward that can make 50% of MM attacks miss, unless we counter it with our target acquired. Besides, you are supposed to have a hard time against us.

 

Stealthers don't give a damn about entrench and just about any other sniper defensive CDs. Why? Because they are capable to strike at the most opportunistic times and catch the sniper with their pants down. I hope stealthers have learened not to open on an entrenched sniper with ballistic dampers, shield probe, entrench and ballistic shield on. I really hope they don't do it.

 

Tanks? Tanks don't give a damn about MM. Yeah they cannot abuse CC on us, but they are not going down either. Tanks only fear lethality and only lethality.

 

Ah i think i know where this pain is coming from, you don't like how we synergize with our team, you don't like when there is a big zerg vs big zerg where snipers whipe the floor with anyone who is careless and ignorantly staying in sniper LoS. You'd prefer to remove snipers form this equation so you can focus on zerging. Remove by CCing them. Well tough luck, we have just positioned ourselves in a spot where we think would allow us to DPS on you. Your reaction should be immediate, get the hell out if you don't have defensive CDs.

 

Well hello out there, I am not the master of 1vs1 as deception is, i am good where my team is. And entrench is part of this philosphy.

Edited May 22, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[Sharee]

Ah i think i know where this pain is coming from

 

This is basically the essence of what's wrong with your posts. You are obsessed with discovering 'where the pain is coming from' because you are unable to comprehend someone might think an ability overpowered without actually being 'in pain' from it.

 

Thus, baseless accusations like

 

You are just one of those dudes playing a non-sniper main, trying to disguise himself as a sniper player.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Sharee

[NoTomorrow]

This is basically the essence of what's wrong with your posts. Instead of discussing the ability the thread is about, your are obsessed with discovering 'where the pain is coming from' because you are unable to comprehend someone might think an ability overpowered without actually being 'in pain' from it.

 

See this pyramid ? You just made it to level 3. You are long way from reaching the top of it. I provided you with enough posts how you can beat an entrenched sniper, as well as my PoV of game balance when entrench is supposed to give the sniper a clear advantage.

Edited May 22, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[SpoeMeister]

You say say entrench CD is too short. Why shouldn't it be? Because you think it's too powerful? Too powerful in what context? against who?

 

Against ranged DPS? He has already rooted himself, take an advantage out of that and stay out of LoS while dotting him and using instant attacks.

 

Against healers? Healers don't have a damn right to whine about snipers and any other ranged DPS. Ranged DPS doesn't pose an existential threat to healers.

 

Against Melee DPS? As a melee DPS you rely less on CCing the sniper and more on using your defensive CD-s and debuffs against him. Obfuscate works wonders against MM, the spec that has lower entrench CD. Jugs got saber reflect, wonderful thing against ambush and other stuff. Both classes got saberward that can make 50% of MM attacks miss, unless we counter it with our target acquired. Besides, you are supposed to have a hard time against us.

 

Stealthers don't give a damn about entrench and just about any other sniper defensive CDs. Why? Because they are capable to strike at the most opportunistic times and catch the sniper with their pants down. I hope stealthers have learened not to open on an entrenched sniper with ballistic dampers, shield probe, entrench and ballistic shield on. I really hope they don't do it.

 

Tanks? Tanks don't give a damn about MM. Yeah they cannot abuse CC on us, but they are not going down either. Tanks only fear lethality and only lethality.

 

Ah i think i know where this pain is coming from, you don't like how we synergize with our team, you don't like when there is a big zerg vs big zerg where snipers whipe the floor with anyone who is careless and ignorantly staying in sniper LoS. You'd prefer to remove snipers form this equation so you can focus on zerging. Remove by CCing them. Well tough luck, we have just positioned ourselves in a spot where we think would allow us to DPS on you. Your reaction should be immediate, get the hell out if you don't have defensive CDs.

 

Well hello out there, I am not the master of 1vs1 as deception is, i am good where my team is. And entrench is part of this philosphy.

 

This post has said it all, but I filtered the irrelevant stuff :-). If we want the entire uptime of Entrench, we have to remain in one spot. This is its biggest backlash, as there aren't many positions in the warzones where we can maintain a 100% LOS on our targets. if we move, we lose Entrench. If we don't move, you can wait it out...

 

To have such "Ridiculously OP anti-CC tool" we need to go Marksmanship. 3 classes are virtually untouchable for this spec if they are tank-specced. 2 classes can open up on us regardless of spec. This would make it pretty balanced.

 

You can't expect to beat everyone with only one class/spec. Marksmanship is also balanced this way as there are plenty of counters for it. Entrench does nothing to prevent that, as CC'ing does not equal countering.

 

Just my two cents. I don't care whether something gets buffed or nerfed. I play what I like :-) and I like Sniper.

[Sharee]

I provided you with enough posts how you can beat an entrenched sniper

 

The topic of the thread is whether entrench is overpowered, not whether you can beat an entrenched sniper. Difference: An ability does not need to make a class unbeatable to be considered overpowered. All it takes is for the ability to give a big enough advantage often enough to create an imbalance.

 

And 51% uptime on CC immunity in a game where CC is one of the main concerns of the PvP community is one hell of an advantage.

[RougeBeaver]

LoSing screws Entrench by forcing them to move if they want to keep bursting you down. Anything can be countered.

 

More whining about non force users having better mobility and utility? Seriously?? And I thought all the crying about Exfiltrate was funny!

 

It's ever so redundant to say, but please learn to play~

[gunte]

Entrench is fine jesus.. and i play a smash mon.. i mean sentinel.

We dont do cc anyway, its a bit too complicated we prefer simple things like: leap, smash etc. one syllable, no fuss.

 

Electro net is far far far more annoying as a melee especially a sentinel, but i suppose even commandos should be able to kill something once in a while so they can keep it.

 

Bottom line, entrench is fine

[Selout]

I am indeed borrowing wisdom gleaned from other individuals in an attempt to be wise myself. I get the feeling you forget the content of your own statements in this thread. As far as stating who/what/where/when/why, we haven't been allowed to have that conversation yet thanks to you. You don't get to try to shout everyone down then say "where are the facts. Pssshh, see, no content. Obvious troll." This thread was made in the hopes of achieving some sort of consensus about what seems to be fairly obvious to most.

 

I for one will be just fine and continue to do well regardless of the class changes that may be in the pipeline. You make all these assumptions about my intentions and when I give logical, reasonable responses you dismiss it as if you are some oracle that can determine one's true intentions. So there is no reasoning with you.

 

Now, into the nuts and bolts of your response and since you seem fit to turn this into some sort of doctoral thesis, you are making a TON of assumptions. I mean you do realize that some of those defensives you talk about have long cd's some as long as 3m with a duration of 12s? So, here is some remedial math for you since you struggle with the reading comprehension with an example you used:

 

Saber Ward = 120s cd for a duration of 12s. So that's 108s of down time. 6.66666% uptime.

NON sharpshooter/marksman entrench/hunker down = 60s cd for a duration of 20s That's 40s of downtime. 33.33333% uptime.

 

Now, as per your OWN instructions, everyone that doesn't have defensives should get out of los. I don't know what kind of teams you play with or against or if you even fully appreciate how powerful entrench/hunker down is but that gives you the ability to create your own base of operations out in LOS with the most minimal of support from your healers. Why? Because you can't be swapped to easily mid-fight and if you are you have a plethora of abilities to escape or cc out. Now, back to the math. It isn't really reasonable to expect people to, how did you put it? O ya, "Your reaction should be immediate, get the hell out if you don't have defensive CDs." when our uptime is literally 3 times higher than their defensives last or always have an out. Well, you might say that "but, but, they have obfucate AND saber ward" or whatever combo you decide to put out. Let keep something else in mind. We are ranged. Some, abilities have a range component on them. Hrm, I am pretty sure leg shot can stop them from closing the gap for 2-5s (and remember, we can't be charged/gripped/stopped due to hunker down/entrench) or if a caster we have distraction on a 12s cd.. Should we deduct that time from their cd's? Na, lets keep it there just to keep the math simple. Hope I am not losing you here. So the revised math is as follows:

 

saber ward + obfuscate = 18s (12s for saber ward + 6s for obfuscate) duration with a cd of 180s. 10% uptime and 2 cd's used

NON marks/ss entrench/hunker down = 20s duration with a cd of 60s. 33.33333% uptime and 1 cd used

 

What game are you playing? You don't think that's a bit much? Three times the uptime of someone's defensives? you might add that obfuscate is a 1m cd, I would counter by saying it has a 4m range and leg shot has a 15s cd. So, I am not saying we don't need hunker down/entrench, but doesn't it feel dumbed down a tad with such good uptime and the mobility to leave every 20s? There are no hard choices for us right now. Or is that how you like it?

Edited May 22, 2013 by Selout

[Kontraz]

it's not OP. It is a hard-counter to melee classes. I will agree that electro-net should be able to take them out though, but even if that never happens (which I doubt it will) it is still fine where it is. Assassins and Operatives still tend to chew up snipers when they manage to get the jump on them. Barring that, the class is - quite literally - a turret. Line of Sight them, focus on the rest of the enemy team.

 

Sure, they're a pain to deal with, but so are most classes when played properly.

[Selout]

On my GS I literally have a counter for every class it feels like. /shrug I only used one example that was given to me. That is all I care to delve into.

[NoTomorrow]

Selout

 

you are quite amusing. All those arguments of yours are based on the wrong and failed foundation that you need to facetank the sniper. Of course you deserve to be killed. Of course you deserve to lose that fight.

 

All that stuff is designed specifically to punish you for playin right into the sniper's strengths. You want to remove these strengths while keeping our weaknesses.

 

You remind me of myself when i was QQing about tank sins being so strong at defending objectives. Well, I have learned to accept this reality. Perhaps it is something you should do as well with snipers. Don't stay in our LoS or we will tear you apart. If you cannot deal with a problem unless jump right into its face, or spam your stun buttons, it's your problem, not a balance problem.

 

On my GS I literally have a counter for every class it feels like. /shrug I only used one example that was given to me. That is all I care to delve into.

 

after this BS, I am not wasting my time on you any more. You don't have the mystical 40/40/40 spec avaialble. You don't counter everything when you choose either MM/ENG/Lethality

Edited May 22, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[Selout]

What part of this are you not understanding? Lol, in what post did I ever say I was on the end of some sort of "face tanking" or w/e? Do you speak English? Basically, I am saying, in rated's I feel as if all I need to do is tell my healer "Hey, gonna go cause problems" every 1m and I force cd's or get kills. It's all too dumbed down. Sorry if that offends you. Lol.

 

edit: jesus christ, i said nothing about a hard-counter to everything. I meant, I have some way to escape or mitigate incoming dmg for a while until help arrives and those tools are better than other classes. Lol. It's like talking to a 6 year old.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Selout

[Sharee]

saber ward + obfuscate = 18s (12s for saber ward + 6s for obfuscate) duration with a cd of 180s. 10% uptime and 2 cd's used

NON marks/ss entrench/hunker down = 20s duration with a cd of 60s. 33.33333% uptime and 1 cd used

 

I think in the context of this example it is also worth pointing out that the sniper has target acquired on a 2 min cd (1 min shorter than saber ward's) that negates a large portion of saber ward's effect. So if in the above equation you allow the sniper to use 2 CD's as well it becomes even more laughable.

 

But, i digress. This is not a 'how to beat a sniper as a marauder' topic.

[Kontraz]

On my GS I literally have a counter for every class it feels like. /shrug I only used one example that was given to me. That is all I care to delve into.

 

Then I suppose you're just a really good player? While some ACs or specs are certainly more viable than others, I do believe that each are able to hold their own with the right person behind them the vast majority of the time.

[Kontraz]

What part of this are you not understanding? Lol, in what post did I ever say I was on the end of some sort of "face tanking" or w/e? Do you speak English? Basically, I am saying, in rated's I feel as if all I need to do is tell my healer "Hey, gonna go cause problems" every 1m and I force cd's or get kills. It's all too dumbed down. Sorry if that offends you. Lol.

 

edit: jesus christ, i said nothing about a hard-counter to everything. I meant, I have some way to escape or mitigate incoming dmg for a while until help arrives and those tools are better than other classes. Lol. It's like talking to a 6 year old.

 

If you are referring to me as this 6yo due to my "hard counter" comment, it was used in preceding clarification. Never did I state nor imply that you were making any such claims of it being a hard counter. I believe you might be starting to take disagreeing arguments with your claims as personal attacks, and are unjustly lashing out. If this is the case, there certainly is no need for it.

[Selout]

Then I suppose you're just a really good player? While some ACs or specs are certainly more viable than others, I do believe that each are able to hold their own with the right person behind them the vast majority of the time.

 

This isn't an ego-stroke thread. What I do was pretty much taught to me by a friend and therefore knowledge easily obtained by most IMO. It's easy to coordinate, "Hey, is your static barrier/force armor and inntervate/healing trance up? Ya? Ok." I merely suggested that hunker down/entrench could use a longer cd... lol. That's it. Was hoping for some debate, not some over-bearing person barging in to tell everyone what's what just on the basis he is who he is.

 

Edit: Not at you Kontraz =)

Edited May 22, 2013 by Selout

[Glower]

Damn! Who cares about Hunker Down?

 

Nerf Flash Grenade!

[Ubwike]

This 'entrench is so op' "debate" seems to lack any consideration of other defensive abilities snipers get. So for those who don't know, lets look at the cooldowns snipers/gs get.

 

Shield probe - 1 min cd, and seems to absorb very little damage

 

Evasion - 1 min cd, 3 seconds where ranged and melee attacks can't hit you - note if anyone has the brains to use force or tech, well you guessed it, it does nothing!

 

Ballistic shield - 3 min, 20% damage reduction for 20 seconds to all within 10 meters - more use to your team than you

 

Flashbang - 1 min, it is a mezz, grow a brain, if they are using this they are running, they'll be getting back to range or out of it. And remember folks, it takes a special kind of team to all stack up in one place to be susceptible to ye olde flashbang - so mostly it is a single target mezz.

 

Debilitate - 1 min, 4 metre range - not much use for anything that isn't in your face... Hint, maybe being in a snipers face isn't a good way to challenge them, if you have no way to neutralize them, by say pre-empting them and preventing them using entrench etc.

 

Covered escape - 18 seconds, evade attacks for 1 gcd

 

Entrench - 1 min, prevent stuns for 20 seconds

 

Shield probe seems to absorb a terribly small amount of damage. Evasion doesn't do anything if you are not playing a complete moron, otherwise enjoy! Flashbang is a run away ability. Debilitate you only really end up using against stealthers who are popping out of stealth to get you, or melee who walk up in front of you out of stealth. Covered escape is great, but doesn't work when you are rooted, and isn't very good when slowed... And ballistic shield isn't doing that much unless you have lots of other players round you.

 

So out of this lot, the only really useful cool downs for a fight where someone is challenging a sniper are the shield probe and Entrench. The others can be good, but have limited utility at times - you'll leave your ballistic shield behind if you have to make distance, debilitate they have to cuddle you for it to be useful, Flashbang is a mezz, so any dots used...

 

Hence, the entrench ability is your only really big defensive cooldown - which only prevents stuns, nothing else. It doesn't reduce damage taken, and it doesn't give you anything but stun immunity while it roots you. Not sure that people know this, but a sniper out of cover is a free kill - so they need some way to stay in cover.

 

So all in all, stop trying to jump a sniper by running at them from 35m. People like mercs and sorcs can attack, pop out of line of sight and heal themselves... They'll grind the sniper down with ease. If you are a smash monkey, then you are going to have it rough, but you need a counter - every class has them.

 

For example - a good assasin or operative will pop out of stealth behind the sniper and have them at 30% health before the cc's have worn off. A good sorc will melt through a sniper as they have no way of purging the dots that they get hit with, ticking abilities will just eat through ballistic dampers, and can use their higher mobility to counter the sniper with. Even powertech pyrotech build will give you a run for your money, with their high burst and instant abilities, and reasonable mobility.

 

So don't be dense, and don't expect to roflstomp a sniper as a pure melee class without stealth - you have to learn how to deal with them in a sensible way. Team work is required to play PvP - not this 'ohh snipers own me so they should be nerfed so hard I can own them all the time' rubbish.

[SpoeMeister]

To revert back to the Original Post: I'd say, keep Entrench as is Cooldown wise, but make it a 1,5 casting ability.

 

- It should be interruptable

- Alacrity speeds up the cast time so increasing that stat would make sure you need less than a GCD to activate it.

 

Just throwing thoughts out there I'm not nearly as Pro as some of the posters here to know about the hidden consequences of that...

[LenrocNewDawn]

Ha ha, he's upset he can't push, leap and smash. Why cry about CC immunity of the sniper other then that? I mean sorcs and mercs can always LOS with ease while pumping the sniper full of DoTs or insta explosive **** despite the HDown. Ops and sins have their cloak and can pop in for the fight at a time of their choosing. And warriors have so little CC outside the tank spec that they couldn't care less about the CC immunity. Well I guess it sucks when you AOE mezz everyone and the sniper is still awake and roots you so you can't score .

 

Selout, nice name for a back stabbing scoundrel . And yes you do look good when you can put aside your own good for the general good. Too good to be true .

 

P.S. Yeah I know cover mechanic causes unbalances too. Cause you can't leap to or interrupt the sniper, so why don't we just get rid of that, give him a cannon and call him a melee free-kill. Everyone will be happy then!