Fixing Shadow Tank Spikiness

[THoK-Zeus]

The most effective way would be to use parses with specially set PvP scenarios. We know Shadow self healing and Guardian absorb shielding pretty well (~330 and ~120, respectively) so we don't even need to have the tank attacking. All we would need to do is get one player/character with a pure M/R basic attack and throw 1000 or so of said attacks into each of the tanks (could be collected over multiple parses). The time factor wouldn't matter because it's a single attack that would be used every 1.5 seconds (even if there is a delay, we still know that it's one attack per GCD). Repeat the same with a pure F/T attack.

 

Once we've collected the incoming damage and divided it by the damage we know to be the pre-mitigation incoming DPS, we can combine that with the self healing at the known M/R + F/T ratios and a set of arbitrarily chosen pre-mitigation incoming damage numbers (2k, 3k, 4k, 5k, 6k) to compare. It would create a chart for the various possible levels of post mitigation damage at the various expectable ratios and pre-mitigation damage values.

 

Of course, this entire test would be predicated upon the supposition that the game operates on different numbers than we're provided with on the character sheet. Rather than being a test of mean mitigation, it's more of a test of whether the information we're already operating off of is actually correct.

 

The problem i see with this test is the implementation of things like kinetic bulwark and such things which are based on the number of different attacks you get in a certain time (they are based on the Encounter you face.), so the delay between the different attacks will matter..

You can't rly simulate a fight with just taking random attack damage, many of the different abilities from the tanks interact with the incoming damage (give you abilities/force...).

[kjng]

So, in summary, playing a Shadow tank is like putting your legs in the freezer and your head in the oven. Bioware averages it out, and say "you're ok".

[DarthSpekulatius]

So, in summary, playing a Shadow tank is like putting your legs in the freezer and your head in the oven. Bioware averages it out, and say "you're ok".

 

don't forget they give us

• 5sec immunity (no scratch immunity) 95% ressist chance against the heat every 45sec
  
• 12sec high dodge chance against Frostbites every 120sec
  
• 15sec temperature regulation (25%) every 120sec (that as a bonus heals you up before you take the damage)
  
• 2% faster regeneration from Burns and Frostbites should we survive
  

 

so its not nearly as bad as

putting your legs in the freezer and your head in the oven. Bioware averages it out

sounds:rolleyes:

[AAAAzrael]

I must share it....

 

 

I cleared S&V HM yesterday without dying!!! I even MT'ed Trasher through the whole fight! Yay!!!! (Got spiked to 2% health once by Trash though - I had oustanding healers).

 

So I guess that means shadow tanks are not broken for BW?

[THoK-Zeus]

I must share it....

 

 

I cleared S&V HM yesterday without dying!!! I even MT'ed Trasher through the whole fight! Yay!!!! (Got spiked to 2% health once by Trash though - I had oustanding healers).

 

So I guess that means shadow tanks are not broken for BW?

 

If you mt thrasher in 16 man hm as a sin assassin its quite good (sometimes you get huge spikes there even in full underworld and i doubt one should try to tank hm thrasher 16 man in arkanian gear) but for 8 man hm its not that difficult (even on our alt runs i rarely see any health problems, or the need to use a defensive cooldown).

[MeisterBabylon]

I posted this in the Phase Walk alternative thread, but I feel this can go here too.

 

Kinetic Combat – Phase Mastery: Increase all healing received by those within 5m of the Phase Warp portal by 1/2%. In addition, if you are within 10m of the Phase Warp portal, a blow which would lower your HP to less than 10/20% of your maximum HP, lowers you to 10/20% of your maximum HP and you Phase Out, gaining 50% damage resistance for 3/6s. This cannot occur more than once every minute.

 

We're force-using Rogues! A Cheat Death mechanic on a tank would work wonders. Actual numbers need balancing to not be uber-cheese in pvp, but you get the idea.

[nagatamen]

don't forget they give us

• 5sec immunity (no scratch immunity) 95% ressist chance against the heat every 45sec
  
• 12sec high dodge chance against Frostbites every 120sec
  
• 15sec temperature regulation (25%) every 120sec (that as a bonus heals you up before you take the damage)
  
• 2% faster regeneration from Burns and Frostbites should we survive
  

 

so its not nearly as bad as

 

sounds:rolleyes:

 

Does that mean that Guardians are sitting in the hot tub with a cold beverage and a TV and are complaining that Shadows recover from burns and frostbite faster?

[Jimvinny]

I posted this in the Phase Walk alternative thread, but I feel this can go here too.

 

Kinetic Combat – Phase Mastery: Increase all healing received by those within 5m of the Phase Warp portal by 1/2%. In addition, if you are within 10m of the Phase Warp portal, a blow which would lower your HP to less than 10/20% of your maximum HP, lowers you to 10/20% of your maximum HP and you Phase Out, gaining 50% damage resistance for 3/6s. This cannot occur more than once every minute.

 

We're force-using Rogues! A Cheat Death mechanic on a tank would work wonders. Actual numbers need balancing to not be uber-cheese in pvp, but you get the idea.

 

For a phase-walk based ability to work, the cool-down on phase walk would have to be drastically reduced, since it would have to have near 100% uptime to be of any value. for a fight like NiM Writhing Horror, PW with it's current CD would be useless in the configuration you suggest. Just as an example. However, lowering the CD enough to make it viable in PVE would make it OP in PVP. so probably not a good idea.

 

I'd much rather have them remove some self healing, and increase something static, like armor rating. This over-reliance on self heals is ridiculous, especially when I have the same HPS against SM Karagga as I do against NiM Styrak. Either they make self healing scale, or they reduce the reliance on it. But something has to change.

[MasterGladius]

I'd much rather have them remove some self healing, and increase something static, like armor rating. This over-reliance on self heals is ridiculous, especially when I have the same HPS against SM Karagga as I do against NiM Styrak.

 

That is the short version of what needs to be done. Not only does self healing not scale, but the prevalence of knockbacks in Operation bosses makes Harnessed Shadows unreliable.

[DogEyedBoy]

Crazy idea off the top of my head: What if they made self heals a percentage of the health you don't currently have?

[DarthSpekulatius]

Crazy idea off the top of my head: What if they made self heals a percentage of the health you don't currently have?

 

shadow self heal from TKT isn't bursty its a good chunk but it slowly tickles in over time.

Battle Readiness does heal for a bit more and a good chunk of that Heal is Instant but you will want to use that preemptively for the 25% DR and it has a Long CD

 

and last why its totally counter productive you would need to keep Shadows low to max mean mitigation.

what happens to a shadow on Low HP?

Edited July 23, 2013 by DarthSpekulatius

[THoK-Zeus]

Crazy idea off the top of my head: What if they made self heals a percentage of the health you don't currently have?

 

I think then every sin/shadow tank has to go for a maximum of endurance then (45k health i come ), cause that will increase your self heals more drastically then it is at the moment, as the additional health you lose because you have less mean migation will now provide additional usefulness with this Change.

 

Interesting idea, but will take shadow tanks probably even more in the complete wrong direction (high hp tanks)

Edited July 23, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[DogEyedBoy]

Smarter and more dedicated people than myself can probably pull the idea apart in seconds but it just sort of made sense to me. It's spike damage that kills Shadows/Assassins, so higher heals at lower levels of health would help to counteract the spikes while the lower heals at higher levels of health would (should) keep mean mitigation around the same as it currently is.

[Krytie]

When we talk about Phase Walk, I don't really mind it at all and being a "skill" class, I find opportunities to use it.

IE: Writhing Horror has been brought up, so thought I would show how I use it there on every CD almost. Start it when just before 1st pull. You do it during tank swaps right after picking up the Jealous male or right after he dies. If there is a boss that you can or champion you don't need to worry about a fontal cone attack, you can hit your aggro button, walk a few meters towards your healers, then run back in optimal position or use it when you don't need aggro or the DPS have to do something else. Then carry on with your aggro building. Seems to work fairly well. Not simple and you have to time it all, but doable. It is a good bonus in my opinion, but one you really have to earn and decide when to place. So, I personally don't mind it and just one more thing to remember.

 

But, the problem comes from the spikiness and nothing else in my opinion. At least from everything that I know, we are supposed to have the least HP, but also a lot less spikiness to even things out. That is the only part that is missing. Maybe something such as total amount of incoming damage gets mitigated more.. Not enough to make it too much of an advantage, but this would just smooth everything out. Also, could have self-healing based on total incoming damage. Now, in SOLO play, I would love this, but a bit OP. ha ha... But as DogEyedBot said above, maybe a talent that give bonus healing done based on the % of your health. A few options seem simple and viable enough.

 

The other tanks with high HP were made for the spikiness, but shadows should be mitigating it more, but have lower HP. I honestly would not want just a huge amount of HP as I like the mitigation class. Quite fun to play and less room for error.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Krytie

[THoK-Zeus]

Smarter and more dedicated people than myself can probably pull the idea apart in seconds but it just sort of made sense to me. It's spike damage that kills Shadows/Assassins, so higher heals at lower levels of health would help to counteract the spikes while the lower heals at higher levels of health would (should) keep mean mitigation around the same as it currently is.

 

No you are absolutly right (atleast for 8 man).

I am just telling all the time pretty similar things, for example if shadow tanks would start to use their phase walk at the right time to provide their healers more healing, that is an easy way to counteract spike damage (as currently no spike damage is even Close in killing you instantly in 8 man content). But if you increase the amount of healing specifically when shadow tanks are at a low health percentage, you will increase specifically the value of high hp tanks (45k and more) and i think that is the wrong way to go.

 

@Krytie: In the tanking section thers currently a detailed list for every boss in sv and tfb for opportunities to use Phase Walk for the specific boss. With our 3% endurance talent and our self heal largely scaling with our health pool, i suppose we are the tanks that should have the highest amount of hp.

But i also prefer a high migation tank over a high hp shadow tank and i try to use as much migation as possible

Edited July 23, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[Krytie]

@Krytie: In the tanking section there's currently a detailed list for every boss in sv and tfb for opportunities to use Phase Walk for the specific boss......

 

Ooooh nice!! Will check for that, thanks.

[DogEyedBoy]

Another idea: How about making Battle Readiness/Overcharge Saber similar to Adrenaline Rush/Kolto Overload.

[DarthSpekulatius]

Another idea: How about making Battle Readiness/Overcharge Saber similar to Adrenaline Rush/Kolto Overload.

if we have to fiddle with BR I'd rather just have it split into two talents,

 

if you want to copy from another Tank copy Enure from Guardians.

if you want to copy from anyone copy Force Armor from Sages.

not Kolto Overload

 

if it's Adrenaline Rush (Kolto Overload) Baseline, it won't be any help because at 30%HP many attacks (if unshielded) will Kill you.

and talented 2% health every second over 8sec are a total of 16%

BR currently heals for 15%, instant and some more due to the bonus on activation chance of CT.

the only thing that works against Spike Deaths is not to be at low HP.

no "after the fact cooldown" (that is still Balanced) can help with Spikes.

(Healing is per definition after the fact)

 

Self healing is nice as part of our mean mitigation but it doesn't do anything for Spikes.

we don't need a Wonder just a Small shift in Mitigation (be it random to static of after the fact to static) would work.

the alternative is making our existing DefCDs reliable&working in A&V and all future content.

(the Problem with that is they are to strong (when they reliably work:rolleyes:))

(a Shadow who isn't using His CDs right gets exactly the result (in recommended Gear) all shadows get in S&V (with recommended Gear) when shield decides to fail.

The last alternative would be buffing Shadow HP (which would affect Self heals -> Mean mitigation

and make us exponential stronger for all the content that isn't spiky.)

it's all tied together.

[THoK-Zeus]

....

Self healing is nice as part of our mean mitigation but it doesn't do anything for Spikes.

...

 

I am getting frustated... You know what does not help against spikes: Absorb Rating or Defense Rating (just partially) cause (atleast thats what I understand spikes are) Spikes are a number of unmigated attacks that deal alot of dmg over time and for an umigated attack 90% absorb Rating would still be worthless.

 

You know what helps against spikes: Healing after the spike (self healing is a form of healing...) or armor (passive dmg reduction).

One question: are you perhaps trolling or was that a joke or?

 

Edit: Another example: Our assassin gets unlucky at thrasher fight and is getting an umigated stomp and afterwards an unmigated swipe hit for 20k dmg (36% base armor). Our Juggernaut is getting unlucky aswell gets both the same unmigated hits but due to his 50% armor he's just getting 15,6 k dmg.

If the assassin is now smart, he(she) will use her 3 hd stacked force lightning which will heal her for about 8% health (assuming 40k base health that is 3,2 k healing). Now thats 16,8 k dmg to 15,6 k dmg for the juggernaut (which is with a passive healing circle in reality 16k to 15,6 k to heal). You see, the self healing (all the additional healing abilitys) from assassins is working perfectly against spike dmg.

Edited July 23, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[DarthSpekulatius]

I am getting frustated... You know what does not help against spikes: Absorb Rating or Defense Rating (just partially) cause (atleast thats what I understand spikes are) Spikes are a number of unmigated attacks that deal alot of dmg over time and for an umigated attack 90% absorb Rating would still be worthless.

 

You know what helps against spikes: Healing after the spike (self healing is a form of healing...) or armor (passive dmg reduction).

One question: are you perhaps trolling or was that a joke or?

 

Edit: Another example: Our assassin gets unlucky at thrasher fight and is getting an umigated stomp and afterwards an unmigated swipe hit for 20k dmg (36% base armor). Our Juggernaut is getting unlucky aswell gets both the same unmigated hits but due to his 50% armor he's just getting 15,6 k dmg.

If the assassin is now smart, he(she) will use her 3 hd stacked force lightning which will heal her for about 8% health (assuming 40k base health that is 3,2 k healing). Now thats 16,8 k dmg to 15,6 k dmg for the juggernaut (which is with a passive healing circle in reality 16k to 15,6 k to heal). You see, the self healing (all the additional healing abilitys) from assassins is working perfectly against spike dmg.

 

where did I ask for absorb rating?

 

self heal works against all damage but our 8% healing on short intervals isn't nearly as useful against spikes as it's against steady damage.

and for that smart shadow to use his TKT he would need to be alive, that's the point I'm trying to make.

secondly it assumes said smart shadow saves his 3 stacks HS with TKT to explicitly cover Spikes (that will make live unnecessary hard on the healers by increasing the needed overall Healing)

Edited July 23, 2013 by DarthSpekulatius

[Snarkasms]

You know what helps against spikes: Healing after the spike (self healing is a form of healing...)

...

If the assassin is now smart, he(she) will use her 3 hd stacked force lightning which will heal her for about 8% health (assuming 40k base health that is 3,2 k healing).

...

You see, the self healing (all the additional healing abilitys) from assassins is working perfectly against spike dmg.

 

That's all well and good, unless the spike kills you. That's what people are talking about - not that you can drop from 100% to 20%, that you can drop from 80% to dead. That's not something the other tanks typically have to worry about, and that's the basis for the complaints.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Snarkasms

[Berjiz]

Ooooh nice!! Will check for that, thanks.

 

Can't find it, could you post a link?

[THoK-Zeus]

where did I ask for absorb rating?

 

self heal works against all damage but our 8% healing on short intervals isn't nearly as useful against spikes as it's against steady damage.

and for that smart shadow to use his TKT he would need to be alive, that's the point I'm trying to make.

secondly it assumes said smart shadow saves his 3 stacks HS with TKT to explicitly cover Spikes (that will make live unnecessary hard on the healers by increasing the needed overall Healing)

 

I was giving a simple example to explain you the topic, as you seem not to understand it (therefore the absorb Rating).

 

Why shall our 8% healing be more useful against steady dmg then against spike dmg where your health drops down and thers no overhealing possible? That would imply that with steady dmg you will never be at 100% health (and then it would just have the same usefullness). Therefore you are again wrong.

 

 

I have posted in several threads why thers not a single spike in any 8 man Content that will drop an assassin down. I provided a lot of data out of hundreds of combatlogs.... Look at the math plz before you make such statements...

 

I did never say that you should wait with your self healing for spike damage (don't twist my words around....), i just gave an example that healing works against spike damage. The smart assassin means that this assassin is able to use his healing to counter the spike instead of crying around...

 

@Berjiz: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=660876&page=2 its a rather long discussion about that topic in some walls of texts so it's rather difficult to find.

 

@Snarkasm: Again, there are not such spikes that drop you instantly from 80% to 0% in 8 man nim content.

Example:

Thrashers hardest possible spike would be 32k within 4 seconds (this theoretical spike can appear when he attacks with melee attack /swipe/melee attack. There's a 5% probability that all these attacks willl be unmigated (assuming your shadow has normal gear). This attack sequence can (theoretically) happen about 10 times during a fight (assuming full maintanking of thrasher all the time and no tank swap which i think is not the best solution for this fight), so we are talking about a 40% probabilty that you get such a spike during the fight, Still this spike won't kill you from 80% health and you can still use cooldowns (force shroud proactively if you know the attacksequences).

Edited July 23, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[Kitru]

You know what helps against spikes: Healing after the spike (self healing is a form of healing...) or armor (passive dmg reduction).

One question: are you perhaps trolling or was that a joke or?

 

How about "you don't actually understand what you're talking about"?

 

Healing does *not* help you survive spikes. They allow you to *recover* from them, assuming you survive, which is completely different. They do nothing to actually help you *survive* spikes. Healing is a *reactive* mitigation mechanism. You have to *survive* the hit in the first place in order to have self healing do *anything*. The best it can do is help you not die to the followup (which your healers are more than capable of doing), which is entirely predicated upon you actually having 3 stacks of HS up already and not taking appreciable damage over the next 3 seconds (~3k healing over 3 seconds isn't really going to do much against a boss that just spiked you down to 3k or less).

 

The only things that actually help you *survive* spikes (as opposed to recover from them or decrease the likelihood of occurrence, which is what self healing and def and shield do) are progressively larger hp pools (which, since Endurance comes at such a steep price out of the mitigation budget, causes you to drop mean mitigation a *lot*; to actually get to the point where spikiness isn't likely to insta-gib you, you have to cough up so much mean mitigation that you're actually taking *more* than a Guardian or VG; it's also not particularly effective since it just increases the required healing throughput on you) and armor rating/DR (since it's the only thing that *guarantees* reduced damage taken).

 

Healing and shield/def are actually of about the same usefulness against spikes, insofar as they do next to nothing. Neither does *anything* to prevent you from dying. They're pure mean mitigation tools, which is why Shadows *have* such huge mean mitigation and such massive spikiness.

 

Also, Thok, rather than just making assumptions about what spikiness means, try actually reading the thread. We actually go into detail several times to define spikiness and get the terminology correct. I also explain *numerous* times why self healing is actually one of the reasons *why* Shadows have the problems they do.

[THoK-Zeus]

How about "you don't actually understand what you're talking about"?

 

Healing does *not* help you survive spikes. They allow you to *recover* from them, assuming you survive, which is completely different. They do nothing to actually help you *survive* spikes. Healing is a *reactive* mitigation mechanism. You have to *survive* the hit in the first place in order to have self healing do *anything*. The best it can do is help you not die to the followup (which your healers are more than capable of doing), which is entirely predicated upon you actually having 3 stacks of HS up already and not taking appreciable damage over the next 3 seconds (~3k healing over 3 seconds isn't really going to do much against a boss that just spiked you down to 3k or less).

 

The only things that actually help you *survive* spikes (as opposed to recover from them or decrease the likelihood of occurrence, which is what self healing and def and shield do) are progressively larger hp pools (which, since Endurance comes at such a steep price out of the mitigation budget, causes you to drop mean mitigation a *lot*; to actually get to the point where spikiness isn't likely to insta-gib you, you have to cough up so much mean mitigation that you're actually taking *more* than a Guardian or VG; it's also not particularly effective since it just increases the required healing throughput on you) and armor rating/DR (since it's the only thing that *guarantees* reduced damage taken).

 

Healing and shield/def are actually of about the same usefulness against spikes, insofar as they do next to nothing. Neither does *anything* to prevent you from dying. They're pure mean mitigation tools, which is why Shadows *have* such huge mean mitigation and such massive spikiness.

 

Also, Thok, rather than just making assumptions about what spikiness means, try actually reading the thread. We actually go into detail several times to define spikiness and get the terminology correct. I also explain *numerous* times why self healing is actually one of the reasons *why* Shadows have the problems they do.

 

Look at the combatlogs about surviving spike damage. I provided now a bunch of possible spikes in a large number of threads and there's not a single spike that kills you! The only possibilty to die to spikes is to get more damage after the spike and therefore self healing (or healing in general) is helping you surviving the spike. These "instant spikes" you are all assuming exist just in the 16 man hm/nim content, but for 8 man nim it's just in your mind.

 

Thanks i know how endurance works, i am not making assumptions i gave you the logs/data....

 

Give me a larger spike from thrasher, show me a 40k spike within 2 seconds, but no you prefer your blah blah with all the stuff everybody knows already.

 

Shield/defense Rating reduces the probabilty of getting unmigated attacks therefore they are working against spike damage.

Healing helps you to recover from unmigated attacks therefore helps you aswell (thers no instadead spike in 8 man content)

Things that can kill you are large numbers of spike damage over a longer period of time and most of the time ist either the tank slacking (not using force shroud against swipe/stomp from thrasher) or the healers slacking, and self healing is working very good and of the best things to have (apart from passive dmgreduction) in this longer period.

Edited July 23, 2013 by THoK-Zeus