Fixing Shadow Tank Spikiness

[KeyboardNinja]

So there is no bosses you can think of where the shadow/sin tanks have an advantage?

 

Dread Guard is one. TfB is arguably another (Resilience works on the tail swipes in the second phase, while I don't think Saber Reflect does). I think shadow/assassin tanks are fine for Dash'roode, Olok and possibly Styrak, but Guardians would be a better choice.

 

So that's one definitive and one maybe boss out of twelve total, and then three others where we don't handicap anything (but still aren't advantaged). On every other boss, I would consider shadows behind the other tanks.

 

And yes, I do disagree about Terminate. :-) My group runs two shadows. We only have so many battle rezes, especially since stealth rezing is unreliable on that fight due to consistent raid damage. We're probably going to need to get a lucky pull in order to clear it. Three Terminates per tank in Nightmare Mode, 27% net defense chance (more or less) and 57% shield chance a piece. One Terminate a piece gets a 50% bonus to defense chance. So, we have:

 

((1 - (1 - 0.77)*(1 - 0.57))*(1 - (1 - 0.27)*(1 - 0.57))^2)^2 = 17.99%

 

Seems like fairly low odds. :-(

Edited July 26, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[dipstik]

the only time i want shadow tank is for TWH, and thats only if im not healing. Edited July 26, 2013 by dipstik

[Jimvinny]

So there is no bosses you can think of where the shadow/sin tanks have an advantage?

 

I'm not talking about an advantage or a disadvantage. I'm talking about a straight-up complete and utter inability to tank this fight. As KBN mentions, a team that runs two shadows is going to have to get lucky to get a clear. Meanwhile, a team that runs any other tank composition laughs at this fight, because it's EZ mode with either of the other two classes.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Jimvinny

[MGNMTTRN]

And yes, I do disagree about Terminate. :-) My group runs two shadows. We only have so many battle rezes, especially since stealth rezing is unreliable on that fight due to consistent raid damage. We're probably going to need to get a lucky pull in order to clear it. Three Terminates per tank in Nightmare Mode, 27% net defense chance (more or less) and 57% shield chance a piece. One Terminate a piece gets a 50% bonus to defense chance. So, we have:

 

((1 - (1 - 0.77)*(1 - 0.57))*(1 - (1 - 0.27)*(1 - 0.57))^2)^2 = 17.99%

 

Seems like fairly low odds. :-(

What happens if you stealth out as Terminate is cast on you? Or run out of his range?

 

At worst you can have a Sentinel or Slinger initiate combat and just pop a defensive cooldown. Then you only need to worry about two of the Terminates! You can also forego Slow Time for the Blackout buff in the Infiltration tree (25% DR for 6 seconds, I think its multiplicative not additive to DR from armor). If you have a slinger, well, might as well have him pop his scrambling shield on one of the Terminates too.

Edited July 26, 2013 by MGNMTTRN

[MillionsKNives]

What happens if you stealth out as Terminate is cast on you? Or run out of his range?

 

At worst you can have a Sentinel or Slinger initiate combat and just pop a defensive cooldown. Then you only need to worry about two of the Terminates! You can also forego Slow Time for the Blackout buff in the Infiltration tree (25% DR for 6 seconds, I think its multiplicative not additive to DR from armor). If you have a slinger, well, might as well have him pop his scrambling shield on one of the Terminates too.

 

So your solution to tanks not being able to tank, is to have DPS tank instead? Or go hybrid into DPS?

 

The very fact that this would be suggested means there is something wrong there.

[KeyboardNinja]

What happens if you stealth out as Terminate is cast on you? Or run out of his range?

 

At worst you can have a Sentinel or Slinger initiate combat and just pop a defensive cooldown. Then you only need to worry about two of the Terminates! You can also forego Slow Time for the Blackout buff in the Infiltration tree (25% DR for 6 seconds, I think its multiplicative not additive to DR from armor). If you have a slinger, well, might as well have him pop his scrambling shield on one of the Terminates too.

 

Abusing Scrambling Field and Battle Readiness will help. I'm not sure if BR is sufficient to bring DR up to a level where Terminate is no longer a one-shot, but we're certainly going to try it. Opening with a sentinel is something we already do, for precisely this reason (our sentinel actually has a screenshot of her combat log in which she *deflected* Terminate, which was hilarious).

 

Stealthing out of Terminate is *awful*, since it dumps to a DPS, who will die. You still need a decent number of DPS up to burn down turrets and beat the enrage (which is a real thing). We thought about doing this after the 90 second mark so that it goes back to the Focus sentinel (who can use Guarded again).

 

The point is that all this cheese shouldn't be necessary. We're basically asking the DPS (and potentially healers) to take on some of the burden of tanking, simply because our class is insufficient to support it alone on this particular boss.

[Kitru]

Abusing Scrambling Field and Battle Readiness will help. I'm not sure if BR is sufficient to bring DR up to a level where Terminate is no longer a one-shot, but we're certainly going to try it.

 

BR cranks the living hell out of DR so that it's *definitely* not a one-shot. In fact, while BR is active, our K/E DR is actually better than a VG/Guard's (35+25= 60%, compared to the passive 50% of VG/Guards).

 

Scrambling Field is a source of multiplicative damage reduction, which means that it, functionally, bumps our DR to 48%, which should be enough to avoid getting insta-gibbed since it's just shy of VG/Guard DR.

 

Honestly, I kind of wish that they'd had the decency to make the big tank spikes I/E damage: it affects all tanks roughly *equally* rather than having massively varying effects on Shadows and the other tanks. I even *mentioned* this to Jesse Sky, and he kind of dismissed it offhandedly as if it weren't important (which perturbs me since it was pretty much the same thing he said concerning Shadow tank spikiness and how Terminate obliterates Shadows).

 

I/E damage isn't something that should be a *majority* of incoming damage over time, but it's the absolute *best* damage type for spike damage since it's kinda hard to screw it up (you're pretty much *guaranteed* to deal the listed damage) and it affects all tanks pretty much equally. There's no chance of unintentional insta-gibbing as long as you don't set the baseline damage more than the expected tank hp (it could be pushed up as high as 20-25% higher than intended max hp, but that would require the tank be *absolutely* topped off every time for it to be survivable outside of CDs; it would be interesting for there to be a phase transition spike mechanic that hits *that* hard and explicitly *requires* being topped off and using a DR based tank CD to survive it).

[xnightshadex]

Abusing Scrambling Field and Battle Readiness will help. I'm not sure if BR is sufficient to bring DR up to a level where Terminate is no longer a one-shot, but we're certainly going to try it. Opening with a sentinel is something we already do, for precisely this reason (our sentinel actually has a screenshot of her combat log in which she *deflected* Terminate, which was hilarious).

 

Stealthing out of Terminate is *awful*, since it dumps to a DPS, who will die. You still need a decent number of DPS up to burn down turrets and beat the enrage (which is a real thing). We thought about doing this after the 90 second mark so that it goes back to the Focus sentinel (who can use Guarded again).

 

The point is that all this cheese shouldn't be necessary. We're basically asking the DPS (and potentially healers) to take on some of the burden of tanking, simply because our class is insufficient to support it alone on this particular boss.

 

Well stated KBN.

 

The crux of this argument is that if you ran a Jugg/Guardian or PT/VG, you would not have to cheese the mechanics. Even for the fights where my Assassin has a slight advantage, it does not mean that a Jugg or PT in my spot could not tank the fight without attempting to cheese it in some way. In this fight, the only way my Assassin has a fighting chance is to sacrifice a DPS or healer.

 

Current end game content damage profiles and current Assassin and Shadow tank design are simply incompatible.

[DogEyedBoy]

I really hope BioWare has something more to say about this soon.

[MythicalKnight]

The average damage out of both attacks should be the same, but we are talking all the time about spike damage (about hits that deal a lot of damage then an average hit sequence of the boss e.g a row of hits is unmigated). The probabiltiy that 6 out of 9 hits in a row are unmigated is way lower then the probability that 2 out of 3 hits are unmigated. For 6 out of 9 hits we had a 4,51% Probability (see my last post). For 2 out of 3 unmigated hits in an attacking sequence of 3 attacks (same damage aswell about a 30k spike) we have:

(0,33^2)*(0,67)*(3!/2!)+(0,33^2)-(0,33^2)*0,67=21,9%+10,89%-7,29%=25,5%

 

Therefore when the bosses attack is split into like 3 pieces, the probabiltiy of spikes is getting lower.

 

Ok, what I don't understand is your continued insistence that whole attack strings have this magically low percentage of being fully unmitigated. Each and every single attack has the exact same chance of being mitigated, first by defense chance, then by shield chance (unless its marked a guarantee hit in the code, apparently). If you get unlucky with the RNG just two or three times, then you as a shadow/assassin tank are dead. I've had it happen to me enough times that I for one am certainly worried about it. (Note: all of those linked led to death within the first 10 sec. of NiM Kephess.)

 

When RNG means that one tank class's damage taken can spike to 10+k DTPS. Something is seriously wrong.

Edited July 26, 2013 by MythicalKnight

[TheStampede]

This is a commonly misunderstood problem.

 

Taken as individual chances to avoid/mitigate an attack, each attack has the same chance to be a full hit. However, the chance that you do not mitigate at least one hit becomes very small with repeated attempts. This is expressed by 1-x^n=y. 1 being 100%, x being the probability of a full hit, 'n' being the number of attempts, and finally 'y' being the chance that you fail to mitigate any hits. The greater 'n' the closer 'y' approaches 100%, but will never reach 100%.

 

Another example I shamelessly stole from the internet:

 

Suppose the chances you die from a skydive are 0.1.

 

If you repeat this 10 times, the chances you die from any one of the dives is

 

1−(0.9)^10=0.6513

 

So even though the probability of dying on a specific dive does not change, by repeatedly skydiving you are increasing your overall chances of dying.

 

So if someone says they will skydive once in 2011, the chances that they are alive (not counting other factors) in 2012 is 90%, but if someone else dives 10 times, the chances they are alive in 2012 is just 35%.

Edited July 27, 2013 by TheStampede

[helpmewin]

+4% DR as Kitru wants. Ok! 15K dmg 15000-4%=14400. F*ck yeah! This will safe us and paid for it our's self healing or defence! This will solve the problem with shadow's spikiness. And in PvP will be so many shadow tanks, they will kill guardians and vanguards as tanks! Don't be a fools. Problem is very big as Jawa's ***. Shadow tank need a serious buff or a total re-balance. They are too much nerfed since 1.3...

In PvP we had the same problem as spikiness its call crit dmg, crit dmg is unshielded - 8K smash(other tanks 5-6K) 7.5-8.5K(other tanks 5-6K) maul and others. And if u want to be node guarder u need to be DPS shadow(infiltration) or if u a tank u need to do hybrid spec http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601MIModdfzZfrzRkG0oZb.3 as this cause full KC is unplayable.

Edited July 27, 2013 by helpmewin

[MythicalKnight]

This is a commonly misunderstood problem.

 

Taken as individual chances to avoid/mitigate an attack, each attack has the same chance to be a full hit. However, the chance that you do not mitigate at least one hit becomes very small with repeated attempts. This is expressed by 1-x^n=y. 1 being 100%, x being the probability of a full hit, 'n' being the number of attempts, and finally 'y' being the chance that you fail to mitigate any hits. The greater 'n' the closer 'y' approaches 100%, but will never reach 100%.

 

Another example I shamelessly stole from the internet:

 

Suppose the chances you die from a skydive are 0.1.

 

If you repeat this 10 times, the chances you die from any one of the dives is

 

1−(0.9)^10=0.6513

 

So even though the probability of dying on a specific dive does not change, by repeatedly skydiving you are increasing your overall chances of dying.

 

So if someone says they will skydive once in 2011, the chances that they are alive (not counting other factors) in 2012 is 90%, but if someone else dives 10 times, the chances they are alive in 2012 is just 35%.

 

You keep going on about probability this, probability that. I'm talking about what I've seen and what I've done. All your probabilities are nothing more than educated guesses. Probability isn't ever going to stand up against the chaos that is a RANDOM number generator.

[MasterGladius]

On the contrary, if the RNG is, in fact, random, then statistics will do a very good job of predicting how frequently an event or string of events will occur. Only when there is an unknown bias will statistics fail, because even known biases can be accounted for.

[Kitru]

Probability isn't ever going to stand up against the chaos that is a RANDOM number generator.

 

If you want to get purely technical, you're wrong on this about 2 factors.

 

First off, assuming the statistical model is true, probability will always bear out to the truth over an extended period of time. Since we know that the game operates on a specific model, we can be pretty sure that the probabilities bear out. Of course, this works *both* ways where mitigation is concerned: with a large enough sample size, you will *inevitably* come across every possible iteration of a chain of attack mitigation strings. It's called the Law of Large numbers and it pretty much means that everything that *can* happy will *eventually* happy, if you give it enough time/iterations and, while progressing to infinity, the average will always trend towards the given probability.

 

Essentially, as you acquire a greater data pool, the average chance of mitigating will always trend towards the calculated percentages and the chance of coming across a large string of unmitigated hits will also rise so as to be a virtually guarantee. Probability proves both sides of the argument. The issue is that we don't care about the average. We care about the performance of Shadows in those inevitable cases where you get the unmitigated string that instantly wipes you out.

 

Secondly, depending up your opinions on chaos theory, there is either no such thing as a truly random number generator or no such thing as a *virtual* truly random number generator. Computers are incapable of actual random number generation since all they do is run processes to get answers. What computers do to achieve what is *perceived* as a random number is to do calculations that are based upon given variables that change without appreciable ability for people to control. Generally, this means going off of time (microseconds are pretty popular) since, if you use a small enough unit, it's beyond the ability of a person to functionally reproduce. There are a bunch of other randomization constructs, but the basics of it is that computers don't actually generate random numbers: they simply generate the *illusion* of random numbers within an entirely predetermined system.

[TheStampede]

You keep going on about probability this, probability that. I'm talking about what I've seen and what I've done. All your probabilities are nothing more than educated guesses. Probability isn't ever going to stand up against the chaos that is a RANDOM number generator.

 

You seem to have mistaken me for someone else, and mistaken my intent. I have never contributed to this thread until the post you quoted. I wrote only to help describe a sometimes confused concept of probability.

 

Still, probabilities are numbers we use as models of the world, be it the real world or a video game world. In fact, precisely because the world of SWTOR is so limited and the numbers so direct and clean (being coded unlike the real world) that probabilities are in fact a powerful tool for modeling outcomes.

 

As you say, all the probabilities, equations and modeling in the multiverse won't add up to you not being "one-shotted" by 5 small attacks as 1 big attack given one specific instance. They will however help to understand in any given instance what chances there are of which outcomes.

 

It is because the game uses a random number generator that this is so helpful. We can't know what number the little wheel will stop on, but the probabilities allow us to create a set of undesirable outcomes and a set of desirable outcomes. We can then decide how we will prepare for these many outcomes, and be aware of how quickly the the tide can turn.

 

Hopefully this information will be of use to some who are interested in the mechanics of the game and how to understand them and use them to more powerfully influence their own chances of success. Your lack of interest does not make these tools less useful.

[Farstrider]

Sorry to steer this away from the math for a moment.

 

I recently returned to Shadow tanking, determined to beat 'the system' and be the best I could be. After augmenting my full 69 rating gear with mk9 slots and the highest end mods for absorption, I was dissapointed to find I was still taking more damage than my undergeared Guardian with limited defensive CDs to boot.

 

Its really quite sad how much work you put in, hoping to make a difference, even a small one, and come out no better for it.

 

I am considering equipping a crafted relic, the 30% chance of +510 Defense for 6s, and hoping that can help level the damage taken. Though given the cause is inherent to the Shadow design, I am not hopeful.

 

[Gloomycakes]

Sorry to steer this away from the math for a moment.

 

I recently returned to Shadow tanking, determined to beat 'the system' and be the best I could be. After augmenting my full 69 rating gear with mk9 slots and the highest end mods for absorption, I was dissapointed to find I was still taking more damage than my undergeared Guardian with limited defensive CDs to boot.

 

Its really quite sad how much work you put in, hoping to make a difference, even a small one, and come out no better for it.

 

I am considering equipping a crafted relic, the 30% chance of +510 Defense for 6s, and hoping that can help level the damage taken. Though given the cause is inherent to the Shadow design, I am not hopeful.

 

 

I've been there to be honest and I want to warn you. On rare lucky days my shadow is an absolute beast, unlucky days she's worse than a sentinel not using any cooldowns and on a normal day, she's completely unpreditable and thus unreliable. Full 69, set-bonus, augmented, geared according to KBN threat, tried B-mods to give healers more room, Underworld Relic of Fortunate Redoubt and Arkanian Empereal mending (once again KBN advice) and swap to a War Hero one on trash. I make use of my cooldowns quite vigoriously. I regret gearing her instead of my Juggernaut and Guardian every single time I log on her. I get the 'beat the system' attitude and playing your favourite class. But I didn't find it worth it, especially since I have to hear it from one of my healers for a few hours.

 

Seen her shine once since a very long time, in Xeno2. Phasewalk/Force Speed and Resilience give her this edge that makes her worth bringing, for this 1 fight. On my assassin in slightly better gear (72 instead of 69 off-hand, same kind of stats) I got torn apart and got kicked, lucky vs unlucky. Honestly, I can't blame the team either, he ate through all her cooldowns, only thing she did well was thermal intolorance. And let's face it, Xeno2 is a shadow's *****. Previously we could easily solo-tank him even in HM. My shadow didn't get much gratitude for being lucky either, got excluded from rolling on the items because I (quote: ) ' failed the team.' Couldn't safe the other tank from Thermal Intolorance, but unless a tactic changed, all I can do is taunt and watch until the cast ends (that's all he'd have done for me if I didn't LoS.) so I didn't feel too bad.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Gloomycakes

[Kitru]

And let's face it, Xeno2 is a shadow's *****.

 

It *used* to be. Now, it'll melt your face off if you're not specifically prepared for it. Thermal Tolerance's CD was reduced so that it gets used *right before"* Force Cloak goes off of CD and it punches right through Resilience so that won't even buy you some time (because, you know, Jesse Sky just wants Resilience to be worthless). Of course, it's interesting that this is probably the *only* fight where Phase Walk is actually an asset since you can instantly break LoS by popping behind a pillar with it. When I did it, it was a bit of a rude awakening as I went from being able to do the things that made it a joke of a fight before (using Resilience and Force Cloak to ignore Thermal Tolerance) and discovering that they did nothing. The standard tanking was a joke like always, but it was annoying as hell to find out that they redid Thermal Tolerance specifically to screw over Shadows.

[MasterGladius]

It has gotten so bad that I don't play much at all unless my guild needs a healer for an operation. I used to main a Shadow, but it has become my Sage healer that is my most frequently played in the end game. I geared a Guardian to tank with but I just can't bring myself to actually tank with it. If I tank, I want to tank with my Shadow, but I just can't bring myself to do that, either, so I've just stopped playing mostly. All that I do now is RP and play dolly with my toons as I grind for credits to play more dolly. That won't last forever and inevitably I'll stop playing.

 

Yes, Bioware, the problem really is that bad. People are quitting or rerolling due to to this problem. Stop investigating it. DO something. This representative thing, while a great PR move, is shallow and mostly irrelevant. Until I read patch notes, it means nothing.

 

PS: In reference to Kitru's post immediately before this one, it is very disheartening that not only is it bad, but it continually gets worse.

Edited July 27, 2013 by MasterGladius

[Ancaglon]

What happens if you stealth out as Terminate is cast on you? Or run out of his range?

 

At worst you can have a Sentinel or Slinger initiate combat and just pop a defensive cooldown. Then you only need to worry about two of the Terminates! You can also forego Slow Time for the Blackout buff in the Infiltration tree (25% DR for 6 seconds, I think its multiplicative not additive to DR from armor). If you have a slinger, well, might as well have him pop his scrambling shield on one of the Terminates too.

 

Guardians used to cite the fact that they had to run a hybrid spec for best effectivenes as tanks as evidence they were broken -- now a Vanguard comes to tell us we need to run a hybrid spec (and get DPS to eat big its, for f's sake!) -- just how blind are you?

[Ancaglon]

accused me of lieing

For the last time.

 

1) YOU are the one that repeatedly accuses people of "lieing". Apologize for these attacks now.

 

2) The word is "lying". Hence, YOU are the one that needs to "lern to reed" and "rite".

[Leafy_Bug]

It *used* to be. Now, it'll melt your face off if you're not specifically prepared for it. Thermal Tolerance's CD was reduced so that it gets used *right before"* Force Cloak goes off of CD and it punches right through Resilience so that won't even buy you some time (because, you know, Jesse Sky just wants Resilience to be worthless). Of course, it's interesting that this is probably the *only* fight where Phase Walk is actually an asset since you can instantly break LoS by popping behind a pillar with it. When I did it, it was a bit of a rude awakening as I went from being able to do the things that made it a joke of a fight before (using Resilience and Force Cloak to ignore Thermal Tolerance) and discovering that they did nothing. The standard tanking was a joke like always, but it was annoying as hell to find out that they redid Thermal Tolerance specifically to screw over Shadows.

 

 

 

Well I had a brutal awakening as I used the level 50 tactic with my shadow and died. I was like what?? So then i phasewalked behind a pillar like chicken guardian used to to

Edited July 27, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[Gloomycakes]

It *used* to be. Now, it'll melt your face off if you're not specifically prepared for it. Thermal Tolerance's CD was reduced so that it gets used *right before"* Force Cloak goes off of CD and it punches right through Resilience so that won't even buy you some time (because, you know, Jesse Sky just wants Resilience to be worthless). Of course, it's interesting that this is probably the *only* fight where Phase Walk is actually an asset since you can instantly break LoS by popping behind a pillar with it. When I did it, it was a bit of a rude awakening as I went from being able to do the things that made it a joke of a fight before (using Resilience and Force Cloak to ignore Thermal Tolerance) and discovering that they did nothing. The standard tanking was a joke like always, but it was annoying as hell to find out that they redid Thermal Tolerance specifically to screw over Shadows.

 

I've experienced resilience different vs Thermal. First time I phasewalked without resilience and got 2 stacks (phase walk is a bit slow in animation and likely effect, maybe I'm slow.) Second time I popped Resilience and Stealthed out, the animiation kept going and I ended up with 4 stacks, so it looked like it went through stealth but not Resilience. Third time I used Resilience + Phasewalk and got 1 stacks. Should have saved the combat log.because maybe I was faster than before or stealth did work. All in all atleast we finally bring something to a fight. My shadow and Assassin are still gathering dust, like many Shadows now-a-days and I simply wanted to warn someone that they might regret spending money/time/tokens on gearing his/hers.

 

Especially since when we finally bring something to the fight, the other tanks don't do it much worse. With 1 decent ranged DPS/Healer (in a 16-man they tend to excist) a guardian can leap and avoid 7 stacks (I tend to get 3/4 stacks on them.) And the vanguard I've seen it tank stayed at range for a long while and didn't lose threat (miracilously he also didn't LoS Thermal so maybe he just thought Vanguards were ranged.) meaning that after the first tank-swap or with decent knowledge of when Thermal will hit, they all get the job done just as good. If all else fails, hail Sorc/Sage pull.

 

I still hope class representatives will be able to make a change.

[IronmanSS]

...All in all atleast we finally bring something to a fight. My shadow and Assassin are still gathering dust, like many Shadows now-a-days and I simply wanted to warn someone that they might regret spending money/time/tokens on gearing his/hers.

 

Especially since when we finally bring something to the fight, the other tanks don't do it much worse. With 1 decent ranged DPS/Healer (in a 16-man they tend to excist) a guardian can leap and avoid 7 stacks (I tend to get 3/4 stacks on them.) And the vanguard I've seen it tank stayed at range for a long while and didn't lose threat (miracilously he also didn't LoS Thermal so maybe he just thought Vanguards were ranged.) meaning that after the first tank-swap or with decent knowledge of when Thermal will hit, they all get the job done just as good. If all else fails, hail Sorc/Sage pull.

 

I still hope class representatives will be able to make a change.

 

I don't think Xeno HM is any justification for Sin tanks being "just peachy". You do realize that in this ONE fight, all you need is a DPS with a taunt (Sin, PT, Jugg) to make your SIn tank obsolete. Wait 8 seconds after a "click the panels" phase - the DPS taunts, moves towards a pillar - Thermal channel begins (~10s) and is LOSed - then MT taunts back. Seems kind of crazy to be praising the Shadow/Sin Tank for this "gimmick" when any DPS with a taunt (including the former Sin Tank) can effectively accomplish the same thing. Heck, a DPS Sin can taunt, phase walk "zomg br0ke Thermal", cloak, and then return to doing something useful (like 1k more DPS) - without breaking stride.

 

So, as usual just bring a Guardian MT and respec your Sin DPS to help kill cores/boss/adds faster. You'll still be able to do your "amazing Sin trick" for your cookie and your healers can have the real tank do the tanking: win/win.

Edited July 27, 2013 by IronmanSS