Lostpenguins Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 They never said it was a bug(At first). Maybe if they would communicate more efficiently, then people wouldn't have wasted their commendations. Honestly, if you didn't see it as grossly OP compared to other relics, then you were really fooling yourself. I was going to work on getting the top-tier version to pair with my lower-tier PvP relic, but didn't feel I wanted to waste the effort when I knew it would be fixed. Much like the water you get from the Magenta Crystal quest, it was going to get fixed eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoAtreidesII Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 (edited) Can't you just give us flats relics instead of proc's?! Totally. I HATE procs. There should be less luck in PvP, not more. I love how they used to be when they were flat bonuses. But I doubt they'll change them back to flat bonuses. It was a deliberate design decision (one I don't agree with) to change them from flat bonuses to procs. If they do change them from procs back to flat bonuses, they'd have to change all the PvE relics as well, obviously, because a common complaint PvE'ers had back in the day was having to PvP for BiS relics. Edited May 20, 2013 by LetoAtreidesII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistols Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Honestly, if you didn't see it as grossly OP compared to other relics, then you were really fooling yourself. I was going to work on getting the top-tier version to pair with my lower-tier PvP relic, but didn't feel I wanted to waste the effort when I knew it would be fixed. Much like the water you get from the Magenta Crystal quest, it was going to get fixed eventually. Was reported on the PTS asking if it was intended...with no answer... Bottom line is, peeps are getting tired of "not intended" issues making it live when reported on the PTS, only to have the issue fixed months after going live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 So how exactly will using two of them work then? I too would like to know the answer to this question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesadplanet Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 (edited) Hi there folks, Relics procs of the same type shouldn't stack, and we have this bug fixed for Game Update 2.1.1. Because the fix is still in testing, there's always the chance that it will be moved to a different patch. If so, I'll be sure to let you know! ~Amber Why do we have random proc relics in the first place? People are either indifferent or negative towards them, nobody likes the extra randomness, At least with the double stacking power relics they were actually useful, but now everyone is going to have to pick up a useless hot/dot relic, or a tanking proc relic. Edited May 20, 2013 by thesadplanet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostpenguins Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Was reported on the PTS asking if it was intended...with no answer... Bottom line is, peeps are getting tired of "not intended" issues making it live when reported on the PTS, only to have the issue fixed months after going live. Sure, I'm tired of it too. But acting innocent and feigning ignorance at this change is sort of silly when it was obvious on the PTS. We cannot assume everything in game that isn't on the Known List or isn't directly addressed by a dev is "WAI". Lack of communication is a very different problem. That's why, in my post quoting the dev I asked for specifics of what the expected change is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistols Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Sure, I'm tired of it too. But acting innocent and feigning ignorance at this change is sort of silly when it was obvious on the PTS. We cannot assume everything in game that isn't on the Known List or isn't directly addressed by a dev is "WAI". Lack of communication is a very different problem. That's why, in my post quoting the dev I asked for specifics of what the expected change is. Considering they never said anything to the contrary, it's not unthinkable for others to assume working as intended. Especially when the issue was asked about a ton on the PTS with no regard. I don't mind having it fixed, but frankly it's just another example of poor development/QA here in TOR, at the expense of players time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir-Coffee Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Was reported on the PTS asking if it was intended...with no answer... Bottom line is, peeps are getting tired of "not intended" issues making it live when reported on the PTS, only to have the issue fixed months after going live. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostpenguins Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 (edited) Considering they never said anything to the contrary, it's not unthinkable for others to assume working as intended. Especially when the issue was asked about a ton on the PTS with no regard. I don't mind having it fixed, but frankly it's just another example of poor development/QA here in TOR, at the expense of players time. I never said it was unthinkable... but it is a bit naive. It was like PT's on the PTS where the hybrid spec was pulling number VASTLY superior to any other classes spec. Clearly it wasn't a bug. And, for all accounts and purposes, it was WAI until the devs changed it. But multiple people on the forums knew that the spec was broken and assumed as much beforehand. Seriously, I'm not sure why you're debating me. It was fairly obvious to me, all of the people in my guild, and many others on the forums that it was grossly OP and was probably going to get changed. You're not going to convince me and have me say, "Oh, you're right... that weeks effort you made PvP'ing to get both of the relics really shouldn't go to waste." As stated before, the water you get from the Magenta Crystal Quest was pretty OP and took a couple hours, but I wasn't upset that they nerfed it. It really did need to be nerfed. Edited May 20, 2013 by Lostpenguins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistols Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 I never said it was unthinkable... but it is a bit naive. It was like PT's on the PTS where the hybrid spec was pulling number VASTLY superior to any other classes spec. Clearly it wasn't a bug. And, for all accounts and purposes, it was WAI until the devs changed it. But multiple people on the forums knew that the spec was broken and assumed as much beforehand. Seriously, I'm not sure why you're debating me. It was fairly obvious to me, all of the people in my guild, and many others on the forums that it was grossly OP and was probably going to get changed. You're not going to convince me and have me say, "Oh, you're right... that weeks effort you made PvP'ing to get both of the relics really shouldn't go to waste." As stated before, the water you get from the Magenta Crystal Quest was pretty OP and took a couple hours, but I wasn't upset that they nerfed it. It really did need to be nerfed. I don't need to debate you lol, bottom line is they never said it was not working as intended, so I understand why peeps are disgruntled by it. Several things are "grossly OP" on Live currently, that doesn't mean it's NWI and should be "obvious" for a future fix. These are things decided on before you push to live, but it's cute seeing a fix coming 2 months later for it and peeps chuckling with "told you so!!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostpenguins Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 I don't need to debate you lol, bottom line is they never said it was not working as intended, so I understand why peeps are disgruntled by it. Several things are "grossly OP" on Live currently, that doesn't mean it's NWI and should be "obvious" for a future fix. These are things decided on before you push to live, but it's cute seeing a fix coming 2 months later for it and peeps chuckling with "told you so!!!!" How long have you been playing this game? Ever seen a class changed after it's been live? Clearly, it was WAI before, but still got changed. It's "cute" casting a blind eye towards previous such scenarios and acting like it's never happened before. Seriously, it takes a week to earn both relics if you aim to just do the daily and weekly PvP quest. If you want sympathy, I think you need to hang out in the "Operative DPS for PvE" support groups for a bit to see how long they've had to sit at "WAI". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistols Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 How long have you been playing this game? Ever seen a class changed after it's been live? Clearly, it was WAI before, but still got changed. It's "cute" casting a blind eye towards previous such scenarios and acting like it's never happened before. Seriously, it takes a week to earn both relics if you aim to just do the daily and weekly PvP quest. If you want sympathy, I think you need to hang out in the "Operative DPS for PvE" support groups for a bit to see how long they've had to sit at "WAI". I realize that mang, but to "assume" what is or is not working as intended by development (which said nothing to the contrary when reported via the PTS forums in abundance) is pretty much a crap shoot. To "assume" the relic procs were NWI was simply that, an assumption that turned out to be true ( over a month later, 2+ months after reported). To declare it as "well of course this was unintended", is simply a crap shoot currently with this team, which is my point. Anything pushed to Live currently can now be "assumed" NWI until fixed, in which case we can get the "I told you so" group to declare victory. Cause...you know...that makes sense lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostpenguins Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 (edited) I realize that mang, but to "assume" what is or is not working as intended by development (which said nothing to the contrary when reported via the PTS forums in abundance) is pretty much a crap shoot. To "assume" the relic procs were NWI was simply that, an assumption that turned out to be true ( over a month later, 2+ months after reported). To declare it as "well of course this was unintended", is simply a crap shoot currently with this team, which is my point. Anything pushed to Live currently can now be "assumed" NWI until fixed, in which case we can get the "I told you so" group to declare victory. Cause...you know...that makes sense lol. Common Sense: So rare it's a super-power. Seriously, I couldn't care less of assumptions or not. All I know is that the relics were broken in how OP they were, they're fixing it out instead of leaving it in it's broken form, and anyone upset at the time invested is talking about 1 week of pvp questing. Which is worse: leaving it as-is so that a few aren't inconvenienced for the week of pvp'ing they did just because it's been this way for 2 months, or fixing a broken mechanic in the game? Edited May 20, 2013 by Lostpenguins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Kayko_ Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 The old relics clearly stated that the effects did not stack with similar effects. The partisan/conquerer set does not have this. I figured that Bioware decided that the combination of the procs was not an issue as people make it out to be. No matter what reason you want to give, it is perfectly acceptable to conclude that this was not a bug or have reason to belive that this was not intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostpenguins Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 (edited) The old relics clearly stated that the effects did not stack with similar effects. The partisan/conquerer set does not have this. I figured that Bioware decided that the combination of the procs was not an issue as people make it out to be. No matter what reason you want to give, it is perfectly acceptable to conclude that this was not a bug or have reason to belive that this was not intended. Yes, perfectly acceptable to see Snipers and Marauders get 4 power surges at once, giving them over 1300 add'l power... Yeah... that's perfectly acceptable to think that wouldn't be corrected. Um... no... it was foolish to believe it would remain quiet. Just like the water from the Magenta Crystal quest... was it right to see some Marauder with top healing in a fight simply because he's running through fire constantly spamming the drink? Nope. Was the water and fire working as intended? Yes. Edited May 20, 2013 by Lostpenguins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprgmr Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 I can't imagine how one could think this was intended. Show me other relics of the same type that stack/dont share ICDs. Oh wait... Damage procs don't stack and share ICD. Power Clickys dont stack. PvE SA relics don't stack and share ICD. Healing procs dont stack and share ICD. Defensive relics don't stack and share ICD Why would you expect the PvP SA relics to be an exception that would be permanent? Doubly so considering that their proccing of heals and damage have separate ICDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Projawa Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 (edited) Will 2.1.1 also fix the issue of double proccing a relic? For example, right now an annihilation marauder can proc a partisan power relic twice: once based on damage done and again based on healing done for ~900 total procced power. If they have both partisan and conqueror relics equipped they could potentially proc each relic twice for ~1800 total stacked power. On a related note, providing flat power relics again would be great. Edited May 20, 2013 by Projawa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islander Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Yes, perfectly acceptable to see Snipers and Marauders get 4 power surges at once, giving them over 1300 add'l power... Yeah... that's perfectly acceptable to think that wouldn't be corrected. Um... no... it was foolish to believe it would remain quiet. Just like the water from the Magenta Crystal quest... was it right to see some Marauder with top healing in a fight simply because he's running through fire constantly spamming the drink? Nope. Was the water and fire working as intended? Yes. TL, DR version: He's mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altheran Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Make the PvP relics to have a flat bonus inferior to the average amount of what would give a PvE one into PvE. With this, PvP relics are BiS in PvP, PvE relics are BiS in PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Amber, please come back and tell us how these relics are supposed to behave so that we do not waste our comms getting items only to have them not work with what we have. For example, if I have Arkanian Fortune Redoubt, could I get Conqueror Fortune Redoubt? Or Conqueror Shield Amplification? Or would I have to use a relic that has no proc at all for my second slot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostpenguins Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Make the PvP relics to have a flat bonus inferior to the average amount of what would give a PvE one into PvE. With this, PvP relics are BiS in PvP, PvE relics are BiS in PvE. This is how it happened before. They removed the on-use from PvP before and made them flat power gains because they felt the on-use versions were too bursty. ... Then PvE'ers figured out that the flat power was better than on-use. ... Then BW had to add a small amount of flat power to the PvE ones to balance and make the PvE relics BiS for PvE again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy_reborn Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Amber, please come back and tell us how these relics are supposed to behave so that we do not waste our comms getting items only to have them not work with what we have. For example, if I have Arkanian Fortune Redoubt, could I get Conqueror Fortune Redoubt? Or Conqueror Shield Amplification? Or would I have to use a relic that has no proc at all for my second slot? cmon man, use common sense.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
So-low Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 I'm just worried that a green or blue light side/dark side relic, or a matrix cube, may be BiS for the second relic slot alongside the conqueror proc power relic. The other PvP relics offer such little damage from procs that a bolstered non pvp relic may be the better option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altheran Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 This is how it happened before. They removed the on-use from PvP before and made them flat power gains because they felt the on-use versions were too bursty. ... Then PvE'ers figured out that the flat power was better than on-use. ... Then BW had to add a small amount of flat power to the PvE ones to balance and make the PvE relics BiS for PvE again. That's why I wrote "inferior to the average amount of PvE", so that they don't have to go to the third step you mentioned. There is no way that a continuous +100 Power could beat a proc that give a bonus which can be averaged to +150 or more over the length of the fight. It would be mathematically impossible for these PvP relics to be BiS in PvE. (For stats like defense rate, it should be in comparison of percentage given instead of rate amount because of dismishing returns. Maybe it would be easier it they'd change them so that they give a percentage of defense chances and not a stat with disminishing returns...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickensevil Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Thank you for finally acknowledging the problem and glad a fix is coming in 2.1.1. In the future it would be appreciated if you could confirm problems like this sooner rather than later even if there can't be a fix right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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