What none of you seem to understand about subscriber CC stipends

[LordArtemis]

I don't know about whether it's a matter of acceptance or not. It's probably more a matter of perception.

 

If people perceive that the value of their sub has dropped a bit, that's going to be pretty hard to change without a value-add change on Bioware's part.

 

In the end, fair or not, the majority rules. Bioware seems to feel that something needs to be done and is working on it. Metrics therefore probably support this idea.

 

So really, IMO, there does seem to be a reputable problem.

[branmakmuffin]

All of that is beside the point, however. The OP has stated that the Cartel Coins that come with a subscription are not free. Myself and others have refuted his faulty logic on that point.

Wow, there are still people on this bandwagon of flawed logic.

 

Another try: please point me to the sub plan which includes everything I get now, including the ~500 CC/month, but which costs $0. Because every month I keep getting billed ~$15, part of which goes to cover the "complimentary" CC stipend.

[KillaDeuce]

The OP is correct in every way. But this is nothing new to MMORPGs. Not "every" MMORPG but this is not some new evil thing EAware came up with. As another poster pointed out, a better deal then another competitor MMORPG. This system does not surprise me. Nor do I think is is a huge deal. I think people just like to complain for the sake of complaining. Human nature at its best. Edited May 19, 2013 by KillaDeuce

[Anzel]

Please note this is not a post about whether or not certain things should or shouldn't be in the Cartel Market, or if they cost the right amount of coins. Rather, this post is about a critical factor that rabid Bioware shills do not seem to realize about the CC stipend they get for "free," and why it is a dubious position to justify every new CM release on the grounds that subscribers get it for "nothing."

 

Although very few of you seem to realize it, the subscriber CC stipend is not "free." This takes a bit of thinking before you can understand it, because to many of you if you don't pay anything additional, then that means there's no cost involved. But in fact, CC stipends are not free. Rather, they represent compensation for lost value.

 

Originally, to play the game you had to pay $15/mo. But SWTOR failed as a subscription model game. That is not in dispute. It failed. Fortunately for those of us who like the game, EA came up with a new model that saved SWTOR. Now, F2P is not perfect (far from it), but I'd rather play a less-than-perfect game than no game at all.

 

However, when F2P came out, the value of a subscription was instantly diminished because much of the content was accessible for free, but subscribers were still paying $15/mo. Cartel Coin stipends are how EA compensates subscribers for the diminution in value.

 

Recall that even before F2P, SWTOR was clearly not seen as worth $15/mo, as proven by the plummeting subscriber numbers. If accessing all SWTOR content was not worth $15, then clearly accessing that portion of the content denied or limited to F2Pers clearly cannot be worth $15.

 

Make no mistake. EA's subscription price points takes your 600 "free" coins into consideration. They could have simply reduced the price of subscribing once they made much of the game away, but "free" coins cost them nothing, and in fact probably lead to more people purchasing additional coins (in rather the same way that the first hit on the crack pipe is free).

 

In conclusion, let me just restate that this isn't about the CC pricing policies or the wisdom of making virtually all new content CM restricted. Rather, it is to address the common, but incorrect, assertion that the CC stipend is "free."

 

TLDR: TANSTAAFL

 

I don't give a flying crap about CC stipends. I don't give a crap about F2P. I'm a subscriber. They changed to an F2P model but I didn't. I'm still paying every month.

 

They keep making every tiny little insignificant addition to this game over complicated as *@#% for no other reason but to try and grab as much cash from us as possible. Asking subscribers for more money is bad enough, but putting everything into their GARBAGE cartel packs is way over the line. I can't believe people are even buying them. GARBAGE.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Anzel

[Cay_Chamma]

you are not getting it.

 

which is pretty sad.

 

you used to HAVE to pay subscription to access the game, now you don't have to. you don't have to pay $15 a month to get a character to lvl 50, or to play flashpoints or space missions or pvp. you have limited access if you are completely free, but you still have completely free access to all those things that before, you couldn't get unless you paid subscription.. moreover. content added to the game used to be achievable through in game means only. now that we have cartel shop and a lot of added content can ONLY be acquired through use of coins, your subscription actually gets you less than it used to.

ergo. subscription lost its value as its no longer needed to play the game and it doesn't give 100% full access to everything. it needs an extra incentive for people to chose to pay it.

 

in addition. in order to get those 500 coins? you HAVE to pay subscription. you don't get them for just having TOR account. you don't get them as free to play or even prefered player. you get them ONLY as a package deal with subscription. ergo? they are not free. because you had to have paid that monthly fee to get them.

 

you just don't want to accept above, for whatever reason. but it doesn't make it any less true.

Let me ask you this. Why do, or did, you pay for a subscription? Once you answer that simple question for me, I can respond to your arguments against my stance. Whether you'll accept my response or not remains to be seen. Judging from your views on the topic, I'm betting on "not".

[Jeweledleah]

Let me ask you this. Why do, or did, you pay for a subscription? Once you answer that simple question for me, I can respond to your arguments against my stance. Whether you'll accept my response or not remains to be seen. Judging from your views on the topic, I'm betting on "not".

 

I paid for subscription because it allowed me to access the game I enjoy and it was the ONLY way to access the game I enjoy. However unless something changes about the current terms of subscription to make it a better choice then f2p, I will move down to preferred status once my current subscription time runs out, because while I still enjoy the game, I literally don't need subscription to access content I participate in regularly. and that includes flashpoints/warzones/occasional operation. having done the math - its cheaper for me to just buy cartel coins as needed and purchase passes, etc with them, if needed. (mainly when they are not available on GTN and when for whatever reason I run more than f2p minimum... and considering that I sometimes go weeks, where I run one, maybe 2 flashpoints per character, tops... I won't even need those passes all that often)

 

its not because I hate the game or hate bioware or any of that stuff. I'm enjoying TOR. I'm not done with a game by far. its because subscription is no longer a necessity OR a better value those 500 coins don't buy much and i can get twice as many for $10 instead of 15. a lot of added content requires cartel coins. often ONLY cartel coins (like collections) and I'm not a charity. (and before movie theater tickets get brought up - I almost always wait for dvd release. I don't find movie tickets to be worth the money they cost either)

Edited May 19, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[mavsynchroid]

wut u meen? I pay 15 dollurs a munth for sprint at lvl 1, that's it. I get warzones, fps, ops, and everything else fur free as a bonus!

 

[Grayseven]

Apologist fanboi's will continue to sing the praises of BW/EA while trying to tell the realists that they are wrong with all kind of wordy but inane posts. They are basically trolling and hoping that the voice of reason and logic can be drowned out by their incessant words of idiocy.

 

They deserve what they will get since they can't see the truth through their EA/BW blinders. The behavior of EA/BW isn't new after all, gaming companies have been screwing their players over since the dawn of the MMO because they realize that a majority of people are sheep who will continue to follow the Judas goat to the slaughter house.

[mavsynchroid]

wut u meen? I pay 15 dollurs a munth for sprint at lvl 1, that's it. I get warzones, fps, ops, and everything else fur free as a bonus!

 

 

 

Edit: weird, somehow that posted twice.

Edited May 19, 2013 by mavsynchroid

[Cay_Chamma]

I paid for subscription because it allowed me to access the game I enjoy and it was the ONLY way to access the game I enjoy. However unless something changes about the current terms of subscription to make it a better choice then f2p, I will move down to preferred status once my current subscription time runs out, because while I still enjoy the game, I literally don't need subscription to access content I participate in regularly. and that includes flashpoints/warzones/occasional operation. having done the math - its cheaper for me to just buy cartel coins as needed and purchase passes, etc with them, if needed. (mainly when they are not available on GTN and when for whatever reason I run more than f2p minimum... and considering that I sometimes go weeks, where I run one, maybe 2 flashpoints per character, tops... I won't even need those passes all that often)

 

its not because I hate the game or hate bioware or any of that stuff. I'm enjoying TOR. I'm not done with a game by far. its because subscription is no longer a necessity OR a better value those 500 coins don't buy much and i can get twice as many for $10 instead of 15. a lot of added content requires cartel coins. often ONLY cartel coins (like collections) and I'm not a charity. (and before movie theater tickets get brought up - I almost always wait for dvd release. I don't find movie tickets to be worth the money they cost either)

I pay for a subscription because it's more convenient for me. I tend to ignore the Cartel Market most of the time. So, the Cartel Coins that I get because I subscribe are a bonus. As we all know, you tend to pay more for convenience.

 

Now, for the response I told you I'd give.

 

Whether the coins are free or not all depends on perception. Your opinion on the subscribers paying for the Cartel Coins they get for being a subscriber is valid, from your point of view. Arguments for or against that point of view are all valid. Whether you believe them or not. You see the Cartel Coins as part of the package of being a subscriber. Although, you have to be a subscriber to get the complimentary Cartel Coins, I don't consider them as part of the Subscriber package. The same way I don't consider the fortune cookie I get at Panda Express as part of the meal I pay for.

 

We are, pretty much, going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

[Jeweledleah]

I pay for a subscription because it's more convenient for me. I tend to ignore the Cartel Market most of the time. So, the Cartel Coins that I get because I subscribe are a bonus. As we all know, you tend to pay more for convenience.

 

Now, for the response I told you I'd give.

 

Whether the coins are free or not all depends on perception. Your opinion on the subscribers paying for the Cartel Coins they get for being a subscriber is valid, from your point of view. Arguments for or against that point of view are all valid. Whether you believe them or not. You see the Cartel Coins as part of the package of being a subscriber. Although, you have to be a subscriber to get the complimentary Cartel Coins, I don't consider them as part of the Subscriber package. The same way I don't consider the fortune cookie I get at Panda Express as part of the meal I pay for.

 

We are, pretty much, going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

 

you are right. i cannot agree with your point of view. for one simple reason. post from Eric, in which he states that cartel coin grant was specifically meant to allow subscribers to access certain cartel market features.. like character recustomization, new species etc. when calculating prices, etc- they specifically held cartel coin grant in mind.

 

before he made that statement? I may have agreed with you. but now that i know that subscription coins are specifically taken into account and meant to be used for added features, that those added features are added WHILE keeping subscription grant in mind? they are most certainly not free - they are part of the package, the way that little box of rice you get with chinese food is part of the package.

 

you know the same rice you could buy separately? (or soup in lunch special, etc) you assign them the value of a fortune cookie. but its not. its a bit more substantial than that. (of course some people don't eat that rice, or that soup either, doesn't change the fact that they cost a dollar when bought separately) and plus, now they are giving you the main meal for free anyways. you'll have to get the rice and the drink and a fork (or chopsticks) separately, but the meal itself? is free. imagine that.

 

to me at least, the cost of minor convenience is no longer worth it. its like buying cheese shreds for making pizza, when it literally takes 5 more minutes to shred the cheese yourself and costs at least half as much per pound of cheese.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[Andryah]

you are right. i cannot agree with your point of view. for one simple reason. post from Eric, in which he states that cartel coin grant was specifically meant to allow subscribers to access certain cartel market features.. like character recustomization, new species etc. when calculating prices, etc- they specifically held cartel coin grant in mind.

 

None of which invalidates anything the person you responded to said.

 

Anyone who has played prior freemium games (like LoTRO) should know exactly how this business model works:

 

1) They give you shop currency each month you subscribe. People can argue about it until the cows come home, but you get those coins and you can spend those coins.. you did not have to go and separately purchase them.

 

2) They sell shop coins for real $$ to non-subscribers and put key game access unlocks in the shop that can only be aquired via shop currency. Oh wait.. .SWTOR made them player tradeable.. so SWTOR broke that rule of the model.

 

3) Yes, they tune cosmetic content in the shop in a manner such that some players will spend some of their shop currency for said cosmetic content. Other players will spend it on something else since they don't care much about cosmetic content in the shop. Players are given choices, and shop currency and treated as though they are adults and can manage a budget.

 

4) They offer random chance packs for shop currency for people who like random chance packs and would rather spend their shop currency on that instead of cosmetics. In SWTORs case, they created a whole new layer of player economy through this method by allowing players to trade/sell said contents.... which represents an improvement over the competition IMO.

 

Diehard subscriber only MMO players... can choose to not give business to freemium access model MMOs. But that limits their choices to a large degree. But we all know that these people mostly talk out of their keester and then go play multiple freemium MMOs anyway.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Andryah

[Jeweledleah]

Andryah. the person claims the coins are free.

I say - they are part of the package deal - you still pay for them one way or another. they would only be free if you got them without having to pay anything first. like security key stipend. now THAT's free.

 

by definition, when you pay before you get something? its not free. whether its of any use to you or not? is inconsequential.

 

when I buy lunch special from a chinese restaurant. i don't eat the fortune cookie, or those fried noodles they give you. I pick out all the onions they are of no use to me. doesn't mean their cost wasn't calculated into a cost of lunch special - because guess what? it was.

so why do I BUY a lunch special? because its a perfect potion for me that gives me couple of things i want to eat, where buying them separately would require me to buy larger portions and pay more in advance. sometimes I don't feel like leftovers.

 

however, to the original argument. is subscriber coin stipend free? no its not. its calculated as part of the subscription package deal. whether its of any use to you? is a different story. some people never run a single flashpoint. so unlimited flashpoint pass that they get with subscription is useless to them. doesn't make it any less a part of calculated cost of subscription though. you COULD call it a bonus if you'd like. but don't call it "free".

[LordArtemis]

None of which invalidates anything the person you responded to said.

 

Anyone who has played prior freemium games (like LoTRO) should know exactly how this business model works:

 

1) They give you shop currency each month you subscribe. People can argue about it until the cows come home, but you get those coins and you can spend those coins.. you did not have to go and separately purchase them.

 

2) They sell shop coins for real $$ to non-subscribers and put key game access unlocks in the shop that can only be aquired via shop currency. Oh wait.. .SWTOR made them player tradeable.. so SWTOR broke that rule of the model.

 

3) Yes, they tune cosmetic content in the shop in a manner such that some players will spend some of their shop currency for said cosmetic content. Other players will spend it on something else since they don't care much about cosmetic content in the shop. Players are given choices, and shop currency and treated as though they are adults and can manage a budget.

 

4) They offer random chance packs for shop currency for people who like random chance packs and would rather spend their shop currency on that instead of cosmetics. In SWTORs case, they created a whole new layer of player economy through this method by allowing players to trade/sell said contents.... which represents an improvement over the competition IMO.

 

Diehard subscriber only MMO players... can choose to not give business to freemium access model MMOs. But that limits their choices to a large degree. But we all know that these people mostly talk out of their keester and then go play multiple freemium MMOs anyway.

 

To be fair, LotRO offers a way to earn coins in game, and it's not the only game that does that. That is what is missing here.

[Asavrede]

Although very few of you seem to realize it, the subscriber CC stipend is not "free." This takes a bit of thinking before you can understand it

 

Thank you for your condescention. It is much appreciated.

[XuShaBi]

To be fair, LotRO offers a way to earn coins in game, and it's not the only game that does that. That is what is missing here.

 

BW could just cancel the 500 CC monthly stipend and re-design it so that you'll have to earn it through the game instead. And I bet you wouldn't be happy with it.

 

The point is you're complaining not about the lack of feature to earn CC in game but not enough CC attached to the subscription. It's a completely different complaint.

[LordArtemis]

BW could just cancel the 500 CC monthly stipend and re-design it so that you'll have to earn it through the game instead. And I bet you wouldn't be happy with it.

 

The point is you're complaining not about the lack of feature to earn CC in game but not enough CC attached to the subscription. It's a completely different complaint.

 

I am complaining? Last I checked I was doing no such thing. I am SUGGESTING they take care of subscribers in some way to reduce fervor, and I FEEL the best way to do that is to allow a small capped amount of CC to be earned in game.

 

Take some time to review my posts before you make claims like this. It really is the best way to keep your post reputable IMO.

 

You also might want to get a hold over this "Ready, Fire, Aim" style of posting you demonstrated here.

[Andryah]

To be fair, LotRO offers a way to earn coins in game, and it's not the only game that does that. That is what is missing here.

 

So does SWTOR. I've been earning coins from achievements. Haven't you? I was surpised at how many I had on my ledger (360 so far since they patched the ability to earn in).

 

To be honest.. I have gotten more coins in a shorter amount of time from the achievements then I ever did with the earned coin in LoTRO. But, both are a tedious approach to shop currency compared to what comes with your monthly sub, S-key, refer-a-friend.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Andryah

[mavsynchroid]

So does SWTOR. I've been earning coins from achievements. Haven't you? I was surpised at how many I had on my ledger (360 so far since they patched the ability to earn in).

 

To be honest.. I have gotten more coins in a shorter amount of time from the achievements then I ever did with the earned coin in LoTRO. But, both are a tedious approach to shop currency compared to what comes with your monthly sub, S-key, refer-a-friend.

 

I think he was referring to being able to consistently earn coins. With the achievements, don't you eventually run out of ways to get them?

 

If they added a way to get coins, even something small, that'd be great. Id suggest tossing plan comms and putting some cartel coins in. Or maybe 10 coins for doing a daily. It'd take a while to be able to purchase anything, but its stll something

[Andryah]

I think he was referring to being able to consistently earn coins. With the achievements, don't you eventually run out of ways to get them?

 

If they added a way to get coins, even something small, that'd be great. Id suggest tossing plan comms and putting some cartel coins in. Or maybe 10 coins for doing a daily. It'd take a while to be able to purchase anything, but its stll something

 

Before 2.0 patch.. there was literally no way to earn coins in game. After 2.0 you can earn 860 per legacy. More to come in the future IMO. Rome was not built in a day, and neither is content extensions in MMOs.

 

To answer your question.. you can continue (if you want) to start new legacies on new servers and earn Cartel coins, pretty much like LoTRO freebs farm coins by re-rolling charcters. But it would be tedious to no end IMO, just like it is in LoTRO.

 

That said... I would expect in coming patches.. we see additional methods in game to earn CCs (all of them tedious if done just for the coins).

Edited May 20, 2013 by Andryah

[schmel]

Before 2.0 patch.. there was literally no way to earn coins in game. After 2.0 you can earn 860 per legacy. More to come in the future IMO. Rome was not built in a day, and neither is content extensions in MMOs.

 

To answer your question.. you can continue (if you want) to start new legacies on new servers and earn Cartel coins, pretty much like LoTRO freebs farm coins by re-rolling charcters. But it would be tedious to no end IMO, just like it is in LoTRO.

 

That said... I would expect in coming patches.. we see additional methods in game to earn CCs (all of them tedious if done just for the coins).

Although I don't agree with everything you've said so far in this thread, I do agree with you here. In fact, I would go so far as to say that even if they didn't introduce additional ways to earn CCs beyond the achievement system, I think I would still be ok because it is still possible to farm them if you want (and it's actually not THAT bad of a rate. I would say you can probably earn about 1 CC per minute if you really get it down to an art). So there is a way, even if it's not the way that I would most want.

 

BUT, I fully expect there to be an adjustment made to the achievements system to make it more difficult--if not outright impossible--to farm CCs. Why? Because history is often an excellent predictor of the future and many similar features have, in the past, been declared mistakes and removed or changed (for example, the bolster effect on Illum or having toys be unbound.) Now, before you say anything, I know that it's pointless to speculate because we don't actually know.

 

But, at the risk of digressing slightly (my digression actually got kinda long, so just skip this paragraph if you don't care about my personal preferences that may not be the same as other people's), I will say that it is harder for me to enjoy the features I have when I'm not sure how long I'll have them (I really hope I didn't just accidentally start an existential debate). Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy things like my rocket boost working indoors; I'd just enjoy them more if I weren't worried about losing them. (In fact, the number one thing that kept me from subscribing to any MMO until now--and still makes me hesitant to continue to subscribe--is that, for all I know, the servers could shut down tomorrow, leaving me with absolutely nothing to show for my money.)

 

So bottom line: As long as this system is in place, I am willing to give EA the benefit of the doubt, assume it was intentionally designed this way (even though I'd bet the farm that it wasn't), and acknowledge it as an act of goodwill that is evidence for what you're saying. But, if for some reason they were to limit or change it, it seems to me that that would undermine what you're saying, no? I do hope you're right though!

[schmel]

Further to the OP's point...

 

CM points have no actual value. They are imaginary money. They can not be used for anything other than the CM. The 500 CC are not worth $5, they are worth nothing, because there is nowhere you can legally exchange them for $5. There is nowhere you can redeem them except in the CM, where the prices are set and controlled by the same non-independent supplier that has absolute control over the entire market. They print the money, they set the cost of what you can buy with that money... they control every aspect of that money.

 

Others may try to spin this as a discount, it is not a discount either. The price of everything in the CM is totally made up to begin with and has no bearing at all on the costs associated to "manufacture" what is sold. The costs of all purchasable items in the CM have zero real cash value as they are not transferrable to any other platform or to any real good. The costs, entirely controlled by the people who print the money, are determined taking into account that they are giving away X amount of this fake money every month.

 

They are nothing more than a gimmick to create the illusion of value.

Very well said. I agree with you completely, though I think that might create some sort of time-space-fabric-ripping paradox, since I also just agreed with Andryah. The fact is that if they wanted to, they could give subscribers 1000CCs a month. or 200. or 562.73. Which, I think, makes it reasonable to at least ask why the base complimentary cartel grant for subscribers is 500CCs. How, exactly, did they determine that a security key is worth precisely 100CCs more? Is there a reason that they feel a sub with no security key should have to save up for two months to unlock a race, while a subscriber with a security key should have to save up for one month to unlock a race? How did they decide that sub + security key = sub + 1 friend referred ?

 

The prices in the CM are clearly very deliberate--it's no accident that so many items are jussstttt a few teensy weensy CCs more than the amount you bought (and substantially less than the next amount of CCs available for purchase)--but it seems like they're only deliberate as a business decision. It seems like the only reason that anything has a particular price is that they think that's what will make them the most money. I'm not saying they shouldn't do that--they are a business--but it's likewise ok for people like CosmicKat to call them out on it when they do.

 

So why even bring it up if I'm (so I claim) just pointing out the obvious? The reason is that I don't agree with Bioware that that IS the way that will make them the most money. And I want them to make money. Because I like the game. Just like CosmicKat and Andryah and the rest of you do. What makes me qualified to say that they should adjust their business model? nothing, really. But there's also nothing that qualifies anyone else to say that I'm wrong. There's no way to know if a different decision would have made more money or if a certain decision will make more money in the future. We do our best to guess, obviously, but there's just no way to know. Personally, I think that a company's reputation is vital to its long term success. In fact, if you look at lists of the most reputable and respected companies, they're almost exact mirrors of the most successful and profitable companies. Accordingly, I think Bioware would do well to try and go beyond just keeping subscribers from quitting. I think they'll have the most success if people feel like they're actually getting a good deal for their money, not just a "good enough not to quit" deal.

 

This is where the whole "CCs are made up thing" comes in. Bioware could, if they wanted, do things like give people CCs when there is server maintenance or give people CCs on their birthdays. They could slightly increase the drop rate of desirable items in Cartel Packs because it's all virtual--it's not like a super rare item somehow costs them more to make, so they can only put so many in packs. They could also do things like say "hey, we think artifact equipment unlocks are really important. in fact, we think they're specifically this important, which is why we're thinking about pricing them at _____CCs. That will allow people who have been subscribed for ____ months to get them, which is exactly how long you should have to be subscribed to get something that good." These sorts of things would go a long way towards making people feel better about the game.

 

Basically, I think that Bioware should consider sacrificing some short term profit in order to earn (basically even buy) a bit of player loyalty that will benefit them (and us, but I know that's not important from a business perspective) in the long run. The freemium/premium (because many freemium-esque set-ups do not involve products that were free to begin with) model can provide a flood of cash, but it isn't sustainable. Look at Zynga or Facebook; they tanked--hard. Look at what happened to Netflix--they moved toward a premium type model (you can pay more for DVDs and Streaming), got hit hard for it, and recovered spectacularly by completely abandoning the premium idea, apologizing profusely, and adding a ton of content to the site. There's a reason that Southwest is successful, while almost every other airline has been struggling for the past long-***-time: they're the only (or one of the only) airline that doesn't charge extra for bags or peanuts and they make a point of hiring friendly crew members. Southwest is actually a great example because they've been able to successfully introduce things like paying more to get on the plane first (seats are first come first served) and people are ok with it because they feel good about the company and are still getting lots of other stuff for the base cost of their ticket.

 

Wow, that wound up being a lot longer than I'd planned. Thanks to anyone who actually took the time to read it.

Edited May 20, 2013 by schmel

[Shoogli]

[...]

To be honest.. I have gotten more coins in a shorter amount of time from the achievements then I ever did with the earned coin in LoTRO.

[...]

 

Technically that isn't true since all those points you/we got were for stuff that got actually retroactively calculated/added for the deeds we did since game launched in december 2011.

 

And you know it !

Edited May 20, 2013 by Shoogli