hobrogaming Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 I'll go play the game now, the forums are officially the domain of the unintelligent. When people that have an agenda and don't know or care how a business works post on here this type of thread happens. You are mad at Bioware. You are willing to post anything at all that makes you feel better. Outlandish claims, completely false statements, and analogies that don't make logical sense are your forte. You will never be satisfied with anything they do. You don't feel 'valued' because the producer didn't ask you directly for your input. You feel you can create a better game if they would just listen to you. You have a chip on your shoulder, a 1 liter bottle of mountain dew, and the night is young. The forums will burn from your rage. I see your shift is about to end. How much does BioWare pay you btw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawginole Posted May 17, 2013 Author Share Posted May 17, 2013 It's pretty laughable how people can interpret quotes from a developer as promises, guarantees, and contracts. How is that an interpretation? And how is it laughable. When Hickman tells his subscriber base that they won't be paying for in game content after the move to F2P what did you call that? If it's not a promise or a guarantee, then why didn't he say, "We hope we won't have to charge subscribers" or "We might not charge subscribers". But hahahahah it's just laughable that any of us subscribers would actually believe the people in charge of the game were telling us the truth. How CRAZY of us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten_Ton_Hammer Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) PS: Jeff Hickman is a producer. He has a boss. Anything Jeff Hickman says is subject to the whim of his bosses as EA. So even if it was his idea that subs would get everything in swtor-land for free, his boss can decide that's not a good idea and instead tell him to create a cash shop to increase profitability and microtransactions. I don't think Jeff Hickman just decided to push the "Screw the customer" button so someone could make a post on the forum calling him a liar. The people who run swtor are a minor bolt in the EA machine. They do what they're told. Edited May 17, 2013 by Ten_Ton_Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim-ONeil Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 I see your shift is about to end. How much does BioWare pay you btw? 100 Billion dollars. Ignorance costs nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobrogaming Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 100 Billion dollars. Ignorance costs nothing. Wow you do it for free????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadeEmpire Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) Except she did not give me the money, I pay for my own school. Just like I never gave Bioware money based on the "promise" that the OP is complaining about. So in that regard, they are exactly the same. Wow. Just wow. That analogy isn't even close to applying to this situation. You are comparing a situation where you chose to stop attending school to a company not keeping their promises to subscribers. Maybe it would make more sense if the university said to you, "Enroll in a degree program and you will get all of your books and housing at no additional charge!" and then they proceed to charge you for housing and books the next year. Oh but that would be fine with you, right? Edited May 17, 2013 by JadeEmpire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshlaBoga Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Wow. Just wow. That analogy isn't even close to applying to this situation. You are comparing a situation where you chose to stop attending school to a company not keeping their promises to subscribers. Maybe it would make more sense if the university said to you, "Enroll in a degree program and you will get all of your books at no additional charge!" and then they proceed to charge you for housing and books the next year. Oh but that would be fine with you, right? That analogy is much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 PS: Jeff Hickman is a producer. He has a boss. Anything Jeff Hickman says is subject to the whim of his bosses as EA. So even if it was his idea that subs would get everything in swtor-land for free, his boss can decide that's not a good idea and instead tell him to create a cash shop to increase profitability and microtransactions. This sort of thing doesn't matter in the real world. He speaks on behalf of his organization, his words are hosted on the main site for this game and they're a commitment from Bioware/EA to you. The only thing that stops this sort of thing from devolving into a class action lawsuit is because most of us don't take this that seriously - but they should be careful about making promises to people in writing then 'changing their mind' after money has been exchanged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawginole Posted May 17, 2013 Author Share Posted May 17, 2013 PS: Jeff Hickman is a producer. He has a boss. Anything Jeff Hickman says is subject to the whim of his bosses as EA. So even if it was his idea that subs would get everything in swtor-land for free, his boss can decide that's not a good idea and instead tell him to create a cash shop to increase profitability and microtransactions. Not sure you're following because this promise was made with the announcement of the cash shop. Secondly, do you really think that Jeff sits around and decides what the strategy for customer development and retention will be all by himself? This was decided by a group of people, that subs would never pay for anything. Jeff was the voice and Jeff gets to be the fall guy because of that. So either they did change their minds (lol) hoping there wouldn't be any fall out. OR someone who okay'd no additional charges to subscribers at the announcement of F2P knew all along that he was going to start charging subscribers. And if it's the latter scenario, then that's even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten_Ton_Hammer Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Try explaining in court that what hickman says counts as a promise. I'll see you 5 seconds later when you're laughed out of the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) Try explaining in court that what hickman says counts as a promise. I'll see you 5 seconds later when you're laughed out of the room. I think you'd be surprised. What do you think is required for a promise in legal terms? I SWEAR BY GOD ON ALL THAT IS HOLY being said first? Signing it in blood? None of those things matter. It's a statement, conveying a policy made to paying customers, that was later altered without any refund to those customers or notice to those customers. Why do you think there is all that fine print on commercials and advertisements? Because those are legally binding statements and if they want to convey restrictions or disclaimers they need do so lest they get sued. Edited May 17, 2013 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim-ONeil Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 I think you'd be surprised. What do you think is required for a promise in legal terms? I SWEAR BY GOD ON ALL THAT IS HOLY being said first? Signing it in blood? None of those things matter. It's a statement, conveying a policy made to paying customers, that was later altered without any refund to those customers or notice to those customers. Put your money where your mouth is. In the court of public opinion everyone is an all-star attorney. Go to bat for real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 How is that an interpretation? And how is it laughable. When Hickman tells his subscriber base that they won't be paying for in game content after the move to F2P what did you call that? If it's not a promise or a guarantee, then why didn't he say, "We hope we won't have to charge subscribers" or "We might not charge subscribers". But hahahahah it's just laughable that any of us subscribers would actually believe the people in charge of the game were telling us the truth. How CRAZY of us! You'd be insane to take anything regarding game development as set in stone. I can't tell you the number of times blizzard, bioware, or turbine have gone back on their original design and intentions. It is not a legal or enforceable contract. Bad form? Maybe. Not a big deal of you look at the bigger picture and try to understand that in game develop things always change. If its not good enough or you don't understand, you can always vote with your wallet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) Put your money where your mouth is. In the court of public opinion everyone is an all-star attorney. Go to bat for real. Sure, here : http://www.econedlink.org/lessons/docs_lessons/663_em663_worksheet_answer1.pdf There's a couple. You need me to explain real life to you more? In the real world statements combined with the exchange of money is a serious thing, especially when that exchange of money is in the multiple millions of dollars range. In case you're too lazy to read that one pager, here's a good summary of the FTC vs Apple Computers - this btw was based on a direct mail statement: http://www.ftc.gov/os/1999/08/9823005c3890apple.htm Still think it'd get laughed out of court or are you big enough to admit you're wrong? Edited May 17, 2013 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shingara Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) You'd be insane to take anything regarding game development as set in stone. I can't tell you the number of times blizzard, bioware, or turbine have gone back on their original design and intentions. It is not a legal or enforceable contract. Bad form? Maybe. Not a big deal of you look at the bigger picture and try to understand that in game develop things always change. If its not good enough or you don't understand, you can always vote with your wallet. This isnt a patch got pushed out or a feature was droped, this is a core promise to subscribers prior to F2P launching of what subscribers were getting for there subscription within the new system. Thats a contractual promise. Edited May 17, 2013 by Shingara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagadeath Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) Try explaining in court that what hickman says counts as a promise. I'll see you 5 seconds later when you're laughed out of the room. yeah just like spilling hot coffee on yourself a few years ago would have gotten you laughed out of the court.... really people sue and win for just about anything now. i am sure some court somewhere would take the case just to get a win against "the big evil video game companies that are turning our children into heartless killers". Edited May 17, 2013 by Nagadeath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten_Ton_Hammer Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 I think you'd be surprised. What do you think is required for a promise in legal terms? I SWEAR BY GOD ON ALL THAT IS HOLY being said first? Signing it in blood? None of those things matter. It's a statement, conveying a policy made to paying customers, that was later altered without any refund to those customers or notice to those customers. Why do you think there is all that fine print on commercials and advertisements? Because those are legally binding statements and if they want to convey restrictions or disclaimers they need do so lest they get sued. A refund for what? Was your access to the game revoked or kept from you? The sub fee is to access the game. A producer stating what their plan is, is just that. Plans change. It's not a guarantee of something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 yeah just like spilling hot coffee on yourself a few years ago would have gotten you laughed out of the court.... really people sue and win for just about anything now. i am sure some court somewhere would take the case just to get a win against "the big evil video game companies that are turning our children in to heartless killers". There were real problems with McDonald's coffee. Multiple warning from officials. No joke. That's is a completely different story. Educated people know the real story behind the law suit. Uneducated nitwits just spout off about hot coffee. So...the McDonald's analogy does not apply here. Nor will Jeff Hickman be sued for his words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshlaBoga Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Sure, here : http://www.econedlink.org/lessons/docs_lessons/663_em663_worksheet_answer1.pdf There's a couple. You need me to explain real life to you more? In the real world statements combined with the exchange of money is a serious thing, especially when that exchange of money is in the multiple millions of dollars range. Well if you put some sort of petition together I'll sign but I doubt we'll make a difference. Still you got my signature for what it's worth (probably nothing:(). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim-ONeil Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 A refund for what? Was your access to the game revoked or kept from you? The sub fee is to access the game. A producer stating what their plan is, is just that. Plans change. It's not a guarantee of something. Exactly. If you think you can beat the EA machine do it. I wouldn't take your case pro bono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) Well if you put some sort of petition together I'll sign but I doubt we'll make a difference. Still you got my signature for what it's worth (probably nothing:(). I don't care enough, but people who say silly things like, "Yeah, well plans change" are pretty ignorant. Sure, plans change, then if enough people complain about it the FTC hits you with a multi-million dollar lawsuit. And FWIW, all you need to do is file a complaint with the FTC. You don't need to start a lawsuit, this is a service they provide. Edited May 17, 2013 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) This isnt a patch got pushed out or a feature was droped, this is a core promise to subscribers prior to F2P launching of what subscribers were getting for there subscription within the new system. Thats a contractual promise. It was not a contract. Get over it. I will tell you what IS a contract, the EULA. The EULA also states they can change what they offer you AT ANY TIME. Edited May 17, 2013 by Arkerus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shingara Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 It was not a contract. Get over it. I sorta feel sorry for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim-ONeil Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 It was not a contract. Get over it. No encourage them to pursue it. If they really cared they would, since they aren't going to do that they cant take the lazy way out and complain on the forums all day long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 I sorta feel sorry for you. EULA. Oh, looks like you signed it. Sounds like you just got owned by a contract you signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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