Healing IS TOTALLY ouf of control

[mrdert]

if healers have no tools to be able to survive a focused onslaught .

 

NO class should be able to survive a focused onslaught, period. healers do have tools for dealing with attackers, they are called stuns and kiting. right now op healers have better survivability than any tank in game and that's not right.

 

However, I'll stop qqing about heals if BIOWARE gets off their butts and balances teams in the pvp group finder. you sure don't see the pve group finder matching 4 healers for a raid, do you.

[NeverSuffer]

NO class should be able to survive a focused onslaught, period. healers do have tools for dealing with attackers, they are called stuns and kiting. right now op healers have better survivability than any tank in game and that's not right.

 

However, I'll stop qqing about heals if BIOWARE gets off their butts and balances teams in the pvp group finder. you sure don't see the pve group finder matching 4 healers for a raid, do you.

 

I'm not saying that healers are not SLIGHTLY overtuned atm but you have to treat bioware like little children... if you ask them to do something they will go WAY overboard and INSANELY buff something that needs a slight buff and DESTROY something that needs a slight nerf... unless it's a smash monkey then they will buff it when it needs a slight tune-down.

 

My concern with healers is that they have to be viable while being focused... DPS always feel that they need to be the gods of everything and if there is anything that they cant blast through like it's made of paper then its sooooo OP. Healers need to be powerful enough to heal the group and not die in 2 seconds.... so whatever bioware does to healers those 2 things need to stay true... if a healer can't survive and isn't effective enough to be able to heal and not just fight for survival then nobody will play them.... nobody that likes being effective anyway.

[kweassa]

NO class should be able to survive a focused onslaught, period. healers do have tools for dealing with attackers, they are called stuns and kiting. right now op healers have better survivability than any tank in game and that's not right.

 

No class survives a focused onslaught as it is. The only instance where I have trouble with dealing with healers is when:

 

(1) ...teammates attacking the healer alongside me have no clue whatsoever in how to focus

- They will generally do stupid things like just throwing CCs rightaway and giving them freebie CC immunity

 

(2) ...the enemy have better coordination than ours, so people actually come to support their healer in survival

- Guardian/Jugg protection, immediate crosshealing, taunts, counter-focus... you name it.

 

Other than the above, when we actually corner and isolate a healer, and he/she does not receive any support, the healer is as good as dead, or at least, effectively removed from the fight for a prolonged period of time.

 

Besides, you don't have to actually kill healers. The objective of harassing healers is to prevent them from healing their team. Every shot of heal, every force/energy/whatever resource the healer spams on himself is that much support lost for his team. When multiple healers are forced to cross-heal themselves to survive, then the rest of their team is like putty.

 

Hence, people who have even the slightest experience in PvP of any game, any genre, will of course, move to support their healers. When there are 3 of you going for a single healer, there will be as much enemies going for you as well, some will slow you down, some will debuff you, some will focus you.

 

At that moment, effectively, it's no more just "3 guys going after a healer" - it becomes PvP itself. When you go attack the enemy healer, the enemies will switch targets to focus and taunt you, then your own team healers need to switch targets and start supporting you, others move around, switch positions, and an ever changing tactical situation all around, until one side makes a mistake and the healer either lives or dies.

 

When you cannot bring a healer down with 3 people, it's not because the healers are OP - it's because, very simply put, the enemies played better than you. Don't want to admit it? Too bad - that's usually the simple, harsh, and unforgiving truth.

 

...

 

Heck, things are actually BETTER with healers nowadays -- back then, before the F2P and its subsequent changes, there really WERE healers you couldn't take down with 3 people.

 

 

However, I'll stop qqing about heals if BIOWARE gets off their butts and balances teams in the pvp group finder. you sure don't see the pve group finder matching 4 healers for a raid, do you.

 

You sure don't see the people ever admitting they just aren't as good players as they'd like to think. Frankly, once people admit that truth, then a lot of the things start making sense.

 

Same with about 99% of complaints coming up in this forum.

[Raansu]

I'm not saying that healers are not SLIGHTLY overtuned atm but you have to treat bioware like little children... if you ask them to do something they will go WAY overboard and INSANELY buff something that needs a slight buff and DESTROY something that needs a slight nerf... unless it's a smash monkey then they will buff it when it needs a slight tune-down.

 

My concern with healers is that they have to be viable while being focused... DPS always feel that they need to be the gods of everything and if there is anything that they cant blast through like it's made of paper then its sooooo OP. Healers need to be powerful enough to heal the group and not die in 2 seconds.... so whatever bioware does to healers those 2 things need to stay true... if a healer can't survive and isn't effective enough to be able to heal and not just fight for survival then nobody will play them.... nobody that likes being effective anyway.

 

That's why they designed tanks to work the way they do in warzones. If you make it so a healer can survive so much without a tank then you have the current situation that with a tank you might as well just play patty cake with them. Just like dps need healers around so they can keep dpsing, a healer should need a tank around so they can keep healing. With the current output of heals BW clearly didn't factor in tanks in the equation. It's just simply broken atm.

[Baalzamon]

They should nerf heals increase from expertise again. since they unnerfed it healers are a little bit op atm.

[NeverSuffer]

That's why they designed tanks to work the way they do in warzones. If you make it so a healer can survive so much without a tank then you have the current situation that with a tank you might as well just play patty cake with them. Just like dps need healers around so they can keep dpsing, a healer should need a tank around so they can keep healing. With the current output of heals BW clearly didn't factor in tanks in the equation. It's just simply broken atm.

 

Not a matter of being broken or not its a matter of which way to move the dial and how far. I feel that a healer should not melt like butter unless he happens to have a tank who knows how to be a tank... 90% of tanks will guard and then run away and play DPS while out of range of their guarded target..... that or they only guard the healer they q'd with.... I understand what your complaint is and I agree TO AN EXTENT but I don't think it's as bad as you do. I have been able to shut down many healers while playing a DPS often (more or less) solo... its a matter of timing interrupts and knowing which heals are worth interrupting... I will say on my sage healer however sometimes I do feel untouchable..... but on the occasion that a group of DPS DO know how to kill 2.0 healers I get shutdown... if you nerf healers to the ground because a bunch of people don't know how to handle healers then they wont be worth playing.

[Broin]

Healing + SWTOR = BROKEN

[Drake_Hound]

Fix the cheaters first then talk about balance ..

 

Honestly am tired of all this talk about balance .

When the stuff are running rampant .

 

It is getting ridiculous , here people talk about nerfing a very important aspect of the game .

 

It takes 1.5 dpser to take down a heaker or a very skilled dpser .

But let say this , before even considering balance and breaking the game into a one skot kills .

 

Fix the freaking hacks and memory altering crap ... It is lagging my game !

in both pve and pvp .

 

then people can talk about balance , if there is no fix coming or hotfixes , then stop that pvp crap .

Just give everybody a 1 shot ability on 1 min cooldown for pvp , done deal nobody has to cheat then .

[Jorojus]

Hi Bioware can you please put a forum admin here that keeps double forumtopics away so I don't have to post in more then one topic to make my point ?

 

I haven't posted any screenshots of losses, and as usual everything you've said is irrelevant and stupid.

 

I don't usually do this, but I'll take the time to explain what is happening in our conversation because you seem to have a complete and total lack of understanding of the situation, believing that I don't want healers to be effective in warzones.

 

My favorite thing to do in a warzone is as you can probably guess it - farm damage while ignoring objectives and letting someone else guard nodes and make calls. The only reason I even play the objective is because my teammates want me to. If I ever got into a warzone with 15 healers between both teams and I'm the only dps, it would be the best warzone of my life. I would love nothing more than to push my damage to the limits and get 12million damage from spreading dots and aoe on 8 people with my sin while nobody caps the novarre nodes. Acting like I want healers to be ineffective is pointless and stupid, because anyone who knows me knows I want healers to never die. On top of this I've already stated healers can be killed with focus fire and timed cc.

I'm not arguing with you because I can't kill healers or because I want them to be ineffective, I'm arguing with you because you're wrong and your posts are stupid.

 

The simple fact of the matter is, healers are doing 60% more healing than the dps is doing damage according to the records charts. The OP stated healing was overtuned, the numbers support him, and the numbers don't support you.

 

The only point of any value you've made since you started posting in this thread is that burst dps is better than burst healing. Unfortunately, you are forgetting 2 things: the fact that the biggest heal is nearly the same size as the biggest hit (12302 vs 11734) and the fact that dps gets taunted and healers don't. The only move in the game that lowers healing is the marauder/sentinel's new saber throw, and it's less often and less % than taunting. Not only that, but a guard completely negates burst damage to begin with so it's not even relevant.

 

Now please, stop wasting everyone's time and get lost.

 

Thank you, I am glad I was able to convince you to write something really useful imo. Do you think that in a very well coordinated team and thus ranked games there is definetely a chance to win against the other team ? And if you can win, what makes the difference ?

 

I mean just imagine, everyone has the same skill, same gear, but acts like a brainless robot that only looks at numbers, what would happen ?

Think about, you'll always have a stalemate, where nobody gets killed, nobody dies and everyone will have the same stats.

 

THAT my good sir is the "perfect" balanced pvp explained for you. The only way to counter that in competitive pvp is to actually use your brains. Judging from your facts about the numbers, thx for the numbers btw, for burst dps/healing I'd say Bioware is pretty close to having the "perfect balanced pvp game for robots"

 

I got another question for all the so called uberleet pvp players on this forum but where they are mistaken in. Who does the tank has to guard ?

Edited May 19, 2013 by Jorojus

[sauerkraut]

Not a matter of being broken or not its a matter of which way to move the dial and how far. I feel that a healer should not melt like butter unless he happens to have a tank who knows how to be a tank... 90% of tanks will guard and then run away and play DPS while out of range of their guarded target..... that or they only guard the healer they q'd with.... I understand what your complaint is and I agree TO AN EXTENT but I don't think it's as bad as you do. I have been able to shut down many healers while playing a DPS often (more or less) solo... its a matter of timing interrupts and knowing which heals are worth interrupting... I will say on my sage healer however sometimes I do feel untouchable..... but on the occasion that a group of DPS DO know how to kill 2.0 healers I get shutdown... if you nerf healers to the ground because a bunch of people don't know how to handle healers then they wont be worth playing.

 

Typical rep, DPS should melt like butter but healers, no they are special, they are holly. PvP should be about fight not heal. The reason SWTOR PvP is so boring because it's all about heal, stun, interrupt.

[MotorCityMan]

Typical rep, DPS should melt like butter but healers, no they are special, they are holly. PvP should be about fight not heal. The reason SWTOR PvP is so boring because it's all about heal, stun, interrupt.

 

Sounds to me like you should stick with playstation and xbox.

Edited May 19, 2013 by MotorCityMan

[NeverSuffer]

Typical rep, DPS should melt like butter but healers, no they are special, they are holly. PvP should be about fight not heal. The reason SWTOR PvP is so boring because it's all about heal, stun, interrupt.

 

Don't read stuff into a post that isn't there- the only DPS that should melt are the glass cannons.... if you wanna be in the 1 million damage club then yeah it's a trade off for survivability and it should be- if you are gonna be blowing through people like they are nothing then you shouldn't be a "tank" too... to be honest I think maybe the answer to how to tune healers should be somewhere in that same line of thinking... you can setup your healer to be a glass healing canon with relatively low survivability... or a sturdier healer with less healing output.

[Jorojus]

Don't read stuff into a post that isn't there- the only DPS that should melt are the glass cannons.... if you wanna be in the 1 million damage club then yeah it's a trade off for survivability and it should be- if you are gonna be blowing through people like they are nothing then you shouldn't be a "tank" too... to be honest I think maybe the answer to how to tune healers should be somewhere in that same line of thinking... you can setup your healer to be a glass healing canon with relatively low survivability... or a sturdier healer with less healing output.

 

/like

[kweassa]

Typical rep, DPS should melt like butter but healers, no they are special, they are holly. PvP should be about fight not heal. The reason SWTOR PvP is so boring because it's all about heal, stun, interrupt.

 

Actually, PvP IS all about heals, stuns, interrupts and the coordination of it all at a team level. The fact that you mention this as if it is something wrong implies you have a very funky definition of PvP which IMO, is your problem, not the game's.

 

Every bloke in every type of game out there which features PvP wants to think that they are the perfect player. When something doesn't go their way, they tend to think that it's the game that's designed wrong -- and they, not even once, stop to ponder whether they themselves are at fault - perhaps they are playing it wrong, perhaps their characters are weak in spec and underperforming. Perhaps the team's clueless.

 

Since the beginning of this game I've faced all sorts of teams in random PuGs, and I've played it long enough to realize that usually, when you have good players, facing a team that has 3~4 healers is nothing more than a slightly tougher challenge to overcome with your wits and teamwork. Sometimes you get a clueless team and you can't even kill a single enemy for the duration of 15 minutes, other times you have a good team and you win the game.

 

That's doing it oldschool - when people actually would practice, and talk about alternatives, rather than this mess of a spoiled bratty community which demands instant gratification, just because they can't do it.

 

What makes the game boring is attitude like your own. Waaa, I can't win, change it towards my favor. Where's the friggin' challenge in that?

[AdrianDmitruk]

Don't read stuff into a post that isn't there- the only DPS that should melt are the glass cannons.... if you wanna be in the 1 million damage club then yeah it's a trade off for survivability and it should be- if you are gonna be blowing through people like they are nothing then you shouldn't be a "tank" too... to be honest I think maybe the answer to how to tune healers should be somewhere in that same line of thinking... you can setup your healer to be a glass healing canon with relatively low survivability... or a sturdier healer with less healing output.

 

Funny thing is, sorcs used to be able to do this.

 

There was a time when we could choose glass cannon full corruption tree or go hybrid to get overload root for some self-peeling in pugs (before bubblestun was made team bubblestun and everyone started expecting sorcs to go bubblestun no matter what). But in the name of bubblestun getting nerfed, the root got moved up 27 points in middle tree, so the choice between glass cannon (which is great in premades when we know we will get peels) or having an extra kiting/self-peeling tool (for solo queue) is not available to us any longer. And by self-peeling I don't just mean the root--in hybrid spec we could set up a little dps to counterpressure a leaper on us when we had to. Obviously we can't do that anymore, because the "survivable" heal spec is gone.

 

Sorc heals got buffed in enough other ways that I really don't consider that a nerf, but it DID dumb down the class.

Edited May 19, 2013 by AdrianDmitruk

[sauerkraut]

Actually, PvP IS all about heals, stuns, interrupts and the coordination of it all at a team level. The fact that you mention this as if it is something wrong implies you have a very funky definition of PvP which IMO, is your problem, not the game's.

 

Every bloke in every type of game out there which features PvP wants to think that they are the perfect player. When something doesn't go their way, they tend to think that it's the game that's designed wrong -- and they, not even once, stop to ponder whether they themselves are at fault - perhaps they are playing it wrong, perhaps their characters are weak in spec and underperforming. Perhaps the team's clueless.

 

Since the beginning of this game I've faced all sorts of teams in random PuGs, and I've played it long enough to realize that usually, when you have good players, facing a team that has 3~4 healers is nothing more than a slightly tougher challenge to overcome with your wits and teamwork. Sometimes you get a clueless team and you can't even kill a single enemy for the duration of 15 minutes, other times you have a good team and you win the game.

 

That's doing it oldschool - when people actually would practice, and talk about alternatives, rather than this mess of a spoiled bratty community which demands instant gratification, just because they can't do it.

 

What makes the game boring is attitude like your own. Waaa, I can't win, change it towards my favor. Where's the friggin' challenge in that?

 

****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SWTOR home of the PvP rejects!

[LaBu]

No reliable way to "kick" / lock out a healers spells without blowing general 30-60 sec CC cooldowns. No way to reduce healing done. Unlimited mana. Permanent guard buff on healer.

 

I'm surprised it took this long for people to catch up on how all of these things combined is a problem.

[Jorojus]

Actually, PvP IS all about heals, stuns, interrupts and the coordination of it all at a team level. The fact that you mention this as if it is something wrong implies you have a very funky definition of PvP which IMO, is your problem, not the game's.

 

Every bloke in every type of game out there which features PvP wants to think that they are the perfect player. When something doesn't go their way, they tend to think that it's the game that's designed wrong -- and they, not even once, stop to ponder whether they themselves are at fault - perhaps they are playing it wrong, perhaps their characters are weak in spec and underperforming. Perhaps the team's clueless.

 

Since the beginning of this game I've faced all sorts of teams in random PuGs, and I've played it long enough to realize that usually, when you have good players, facing a team that has 3~4 healers is nothing more than a slightly tougher challenge to overcome with your wits and teamwork. Sometimes you get a clueless team and you can't even kill a single enemy for the duration of 15 minutes, other times you have a good team and you win the game.

 

That's doing it oldschool - when people actually would practice, and talk about alternatives, rather than this mess of a spoiled bratty community which demands instant gratification, just because they can't do it.

 

What makes the game boring is attitude like your own. Waaa, I can't win, change it towards my favor. Where's the friggin' challenge in that?

 

/like like like

[Jorojus]

No reliable way to "kick" / lock out a healers spells without blowing general 30-60 sec CC cooldowns. No way to reduce healing done. Unlimited mana. Permanent guard buff on healer.

 

I'm surprised it took this long for people to catch up on how all of these things combined is a problem.

 

Ever heard of interrupt, pushbacks, pullsn hardstun, mezz, roots and slows

 

In short words "crowd control abilities" Here I found a wiki about it ... http://www.wowwiki.com/Crowd_control

 

SWTOR needs a wiki too !!!

Edited May 19, 2013 by Jorojus

[Astarica]

Ever heard of interrupt, pushbacks, pullsn hardstun, mezz, roots and slows

 

In short words "crowd control abilities" Here I found a wiki about it ... http://www.wowwiki.com/Crowd_control

 

SWTOR needs a wiki too !!!

 

The only spell you'd be interrupting on an Op is likely a Diagnostic Scan.

 

Healing Trance and extra fast Salvation aren't realistically interruptible because the former is likely to have ticked twice by the time you notice it's even cast and by then it's too risky to waste an interupt on it. Salvation is ridiculously fast after talents, and again if you interrupt it they'll just cast something else that you can't interrupt.

 

I know there are a lot of bad healers but you've to be fighting people at the bottom of the barrel to even think interrupts and various form of soft CC has any effect on two out of the three healer classes.

[Jorojus]

The only spell you'd be interrupting on an Op is likely a Diagnostic Scan.

 

Healing Trance and extra fast Salvation aren't realistically interruptible because the former is likely to have ticked twice by the time you notice it's even cast and by then it's too risky to waste an interupt on it. Salvation is ridiculously fast after talents, and again if you interrupt it they'll just cast something else that you can't interrupt.

 

I know there are a lot of bad healers but you've to be fighting people at the bottom of the barrel to even think interrupts and various form of soft CC has any effect on two out of the three healer classes.

 

What diagnostic scan that channels faster then the main heal of operative, control yourself and interrupt the right ability .... Are you a clicker ?

Edited May 19, 2013 by Jorojus

[Thaladan]

honestly : learn to target a healer and stop complaining Edited May 19, 2013 by Thaladan

[Ghost_Spectre]

...ppl need to learn to adjust their game play in pvp.

 

There fixed it for you. You're wrong, Sage & Sorcerer healing is not okay without their instant AoE as it is. As previous posted stated, these ACs would be relegated back to a bad support class. If you take away that, then you need to take away ever instant AoE heal in the game, period.

 

I have both Sage and Sorcerer healers, the fact I can drop my puddle at an instant without worrying about being interrupted is a huge increase for supporting my team, especially when the team in embroiled in a fur ball of a close quarter battle.

 

The issue is not that healing is OP; it is players relearning how to fight in PvP with all the changes they've made. That means adapting to the changes and learning how to overcome these changes. Case in point, last night in NC, I chased a healer Sage with my Jugg Tank from South to the incline on the west turret. I killed them, even after they had a Guardian try to stop me. I killed that healer.

 

It is possible for a single player to kill a healer. You have to interrupt as often as possible with whatever tools you have. Force Leap interrupts, Force Push interrupts, Force Choke interrupts, and Back Hand interrupt just for starters. Before you say it, that Sage was not a baddie, I've faced them before; they are very good at what they do.

 

The trick is "Knowing thy enemy." This is the root cause for the great nerf of 1.2, everyone was still learning their ACs; however, they cried and cried and cried how OP healing was then. A year later we have completely around and people are crying more than ever about healing. People just do not learn.

 

TL;DR Healing in its present form is fine and exactly where it should be. In the words of the Dev team, "working as intended." Learn to overcome, adapt, and improvise.

[Jorojus]

There fixed it for you. You're wrong, Sage & Sorcerer healing is not okay without their instant AoE as it is. As previous posted stated, these ACs would be relegated back to a bad support class. If you take away that, then you need to take away ever instant AoE heal in the game, period.

 

I have both Sage and Sorcerer healers, the fact I can drop my puddle at an instant without worrying about being interrupted is a huge increase for supporting my team, especially when the team in embroiled in a fur ball of a close quarter battle.

 

The issue is not that healing is OP; it is players relearning how to fight in PvP with all the changes they've made. That means adapting to the changes and learning how to overcome these changes. Case in point, last night in NC, I chased a healer Sage with my Jugg Tank from South to the incline on the west turret. I killed them, even after they had a Guardian try to stop me. I killed that healer.

 

It is possible for a single player to kill a healer. You have to interrupt as often as possible with whatever tools you have. Force Leap interrupts, Force Push interrupts, Force Choke interrupts, and Back Hand interrupt just for starters. Before you say it, that Sage was not a baddie, I've faced them before; they are very good at what they do.

 

The trick is "Knowing thy enemy." This is the root cause for the great nerf of 1.2, everyone was still learning their ACs; however, they cried and cried and cried how OP healing was then. A year later we have completely around and people are crying more than ever about healing. People just do not learn.

 

TL;DR Healing in its present form is fine and exactly where it should be. In the words of the Dev team, "working as intended." Learn to overcome, adapt, and improvise.

 

/like

[Ajuntalee]

Changing the expertise bolster of "damage ereduction" for an equivalent amount of "endurance" would go a long way ensuring healing remains slightly more difficult than dpsing.