The weird people you meet in Group Finder.

[Nero-Star]

my turn to be the weird one

 

tonight was not my night to do my usual tanking at all,

just had a mong fest causing 4 wipes on HM Core meltdown

2 from clicking the panel in sandstorm room (locking the others out - why i did this 2 times i have no idea) 1 for not running to canister in sandstorm room quick enough and last one in the spore chamber when i failed to notice the adds

 

gave my apologies and thankfully the group stuck it out and we finished it

 

exit area, collect weekly allies reward and logout before i end up on an ignore list for causing further problems

 

a long 2 weeks AFK for stupid work hours and this is what happens...sigh.....(pat pat) better get some sleep

 

night folks

[Elusive_Thing]

always [/i] use my drop' date=' but lowering my dps to accommodate a bad tank is something I would never do. I'd rather be kicked and /ignored then do that, at least that would save me the trouble of using /ignore myself.[/quote']

Hopefully you are not using it immediately after pulling aggro.

[FlyinSpaghetti]

Hopefully you are not using it immediately after pulling aggro.

 

As someone with a DPS that rips aggro off tanks even after using a threat drop after my opening rotation, I hate people like me when I'm tanking.

 

But what I hate more than people like me are DPS that don't know where their aggro drop is who pull threat before you've had chance to even start your own opening rotation or even move the boss into position and have sheer refusal to activate one simple ability to lower their threat and scream "taunt taunt!!" like it's your fault they pulled aggro in the first place. It often leads to tanks using their taunts prematurely which also means they are generating less overall threat than they could of if they at least had the chance to get most of their opener done before using their taunt to multiply the threat.

 

The problem with this game is that tanks don't have enough threat burst in their initial pulls to compete directly with DPS openers, if you put a skilled tank against a skilled DPS without any taunts/guards used the DPS is almost always going to pull threat off the tank.

 

The intended solution to this issue is simple... just hold all DPS for 5 seconds, allow the tank to at least grab the initial threat without having to resort to emergency taunting. Once you do that you probably wont even need to drop your own threat as a half decent tank can generate tens of thousands of threat points per second if they don't have to fight for threat on the initial pull.

[Khevar]

The intended solution to this issue is simple... just hold all DPS for 5 seconds, allow the tank to at least grab the initial threat without having to resort to emergency taunting.

QFT.

 

I will add to this, that if a dps still pulls off the tank despite this, the ideal time to use a threat dump is right after the tank taunts. This gives the largest boost possible for the taunt, and the widest gap between the dps' new position on the threat table vs the tank's new position on the threat table.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Khevar

[Ryuku-sama]

Hopefully you are not using it immediately after pulling aggro.

 

If he is a sent, his threat drop only works WHEN HE IS TARGETED. Which was the situation at hand. For god sake, learn how Force Camo threat drop works before posting and answering to me.

[Ryuku-sama]

As someone with a DPS that rips aggro off tanks even after using a threat drop after my opening rotation, I hate people like me when I'm tanking.

 

But what I hate more than people like me are DPS that don't know where their aggro drop is who pull threat before you've had chance to even start your own opening rotation or even move the boss into position and have sheer refusal to activate one simple ability to lower their threat and scream "taunt taunt!!" like it's your fault they pulled aggro in the first place. It often leads to tanks using their taunts prematurely which also means they are generating less overall threat than they could of if they at least had the chance to get most of their opener done before using their taunt to multiply the threat.

 

The problem with this game is that tanks don't have enough threat burst in their initial pulls to compete directly with DPS openers, if you put a skilled tank against a skilled DPS without any taunts/guards used the DPS is almost always going to pull threat off the tank.

 

The intended solution to this issue is simple... just hold all DPS for 5 seconds, allow the tank to at least grab the initial threat without having to resort to emergency taunting. Once you do that you probably wont even need to drop your own threat as a half decent tank can generate tens of thousands of threat points per second if they don't have to fight for threat on the initial pull.

 

The intended solution isn't holding back. Never. Every bit of DPS may be important... No the solution is to ACTUALLY taunt. It doesn't matters in your rotation where you use your taunt. And a skilled tank can get upward 5k TPS which is much better than most DPS. Only a few burst specs can actually pull of a skilled tank with a good rotation.

Anyways, your taunt are for when a DPS pulls off you. Point. Nothing to add. Your taunt is your highest burst threat move. And, in fp, you can ALWAYS open with a double taunt opener which makes it actually impossible to rip aggro of you.

[MWidowmaker]

anytime i am playing my tank i am actually wanting dps to try and rip agro, after which i can use an actual taunt, not the dps job to slow down dps, its the tank job to keep agro, on trash i dont care, on bosses it helps make me tighten up rotations and helps me with situational awareness and makes me a better tank

[FlyinSpaghetti]

If he is a sent, his threat drop only works WHEN HE IS TARGETED. Which was the situation at hand. For god sake, learn how Force Camo threat drop works before posting and answering to me.

 

Maybe you should learn how it works before making a fool of yourself by posting incorrect info, straight from the tooltip:

 

Obscures yourself with the Force, becoming difficult to detect, reducing your threat towards all enemies, reducing all damage taken by 50%, and increasing movement speed by 30%. Lasts 4 seconds. Dealing direct damage ends the effect prematurely.

 

Also every time I've used force camo with parsec monitoring my log it's always dropped my threat whether targeted or not. Some threat drops like cloud mind on sorc work differently where you have to target the enemy to drop threat but you never have to obtain aggro first.

 

The intended solution isn't holding back. Never. Every bit of DPS may be important... No the solution is to ACTUALLY taunt. It doesn't matters in your rotation where you use your taunt. And a skilled tank can get upward 5k TPS which is much better than most DPS. Only a few burst specs can actually pull of a skilled tank with a good rotation.

Anyways, your taunt are for when a DPS pulls off you. Point. Nothing to add. Your taunt is your highest burst threat move. And, in fp, you can ALWAYS open with a double taunt opener which makes it actually impossible to rip aggro of you.

 

You try Tyrans on HM/NiM using the "never hold back" line, the moment tanks lose aggro in that fight they may as well type /stuck.

 

And yes tanks can generate huge threat numbers but that's only down to threat multiplying, a taunt for example doesn't generate any threat at all but it multiplies your current threat i.e. if you generated say 100k overall threat in a fight and you used your taunt straight after it wouldn't add any threat itself but it would multiply your current threat by I believe the figure is 30% so you would have 130k threat after the taunt. If you used your taunt after only generating 50k threat from abilities it would only add 15k threat. The aim for tanks is to build as much threat up as possible before using a taunt to multiply it to get the most out of their taunt.

 

Good tanks that use threat multipliers effectively can get figures 100k+ TPS by the end of a fight, however they may only start off their rotation with 3k odd, when you get a DPS that jumps in and does almost 4-5k burst immediately it becomes a burden.

Edited September 11, 2014 by FlyinSpaghetti

[Ryuku-sama]

Maybe you should learn how it works before making a fool of yourself by posting incorrect info, straight from the tooltip:

 

 

 

Also every time I've used force camo with parsec monitoring my log it's always dropped my threat whether targeted or not. Some threat drops like cloud mind on sorc work differently where you have to target the enemy to drop threat but you never have to obtain aggro first.

 

"“It Wasn’t Me” Threat Drop (Force Camouflage): Marauders | Sentinels don’t have access to a standard threat reduction ability. Instead, they have a more powerful threat drop that will essentially reset your threat, making it very difficult for you to steal aggro again. This mechanic, however, only works for enemies that have previously targeted you at some point of the fight. Because of this, using Force Camouflage as a conventional threat drop is not suggested, and it should instead be saved until you either pull aggro and require an immediate threat drop, or to utilise its damage reduction utility." (Dulfy)

 

And between Cloud Mind is an AoE threat dump, like Chaff Flare or Diversion... There is no such thing as a targeted threat drop. Dulfy was the one who started this false information and has been corrected a few months ago. Force Camo only works on enemies that have targeted you previously and put you at the bottom of the threat table.

 

 

As for taunt and all. Sure, your tank cannot aford to lose aggro. But what is keeping him from going for a double taunt opener, there is no adds.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Ryuku-sama

[Elusive_Thing]

If he is a sent, his threat drop only works WHEN HE IS TARGETED. Which was the situation at hand. For god sake, learn how Force Camo threat drop works before posting and answering to me.

Hopefully your day will get better, sad to see someone in such a bad mood. My point was that if he is a Marauder and pulls aggro during a burst phase, he might just as well finish it before dropping aggro. The HM FP bosses don't, for the most part, hit that hard and I certainly would not want to waste my procs in that situation.

 

Not to mention Force Camouflage, unless I am mistaken, works on enemies who have targeted you at any point during the fight. The description here at Dulfy's seems to agree with that interpretation. There are multiple entries for Camo there, so this is the quote I am refering to:

 

Marauders | Sentinels don’t have access to a standard threat reduction ability. Instead' date=' they have a more powerful threat drop that will essentially reset your threat, making it very difficult for you to steal aggro again. This mechanic, however, only works for enemies that have previously targeted you at some point of the fight. Because of this, using Force Camouflage as a conventional threat drop is not suggested, and it should instead be saved until you either pull aggro and require an immediate threat drop, or to utilise its damage reduction utility.[/quote']

 

Do dispute if you wish.

 

In any case, a little less sand in the private parts, okay? This forum isn't serious business.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Elusive_Thing

[Ryuku-sama]

Hopefully your day will get better, sad to see someone in such a bad mood. My point was that if he is a Marauder and pulls aggro during a burst phase, he might just as well finish it before dropping aggro. The HM FP bosses don't, for the most part, hit that hard and I certainly would not want to waste my procs in that situation.

 

Not to mention Force Camouflage, unless I am mistaken, works on enemies who have targeted you at any point during the fight. The description here at Dulfy's seems to agree with that interpretation. There are multiple entries for Camo there, so this is the quote I am refering to:

 

 

 

Do dispute if you wish.

 

In any case, a little less sand in the private parts, okay? This forum isn't serious business.

 

True.. And I kinda reread the original quote I made... well. I completely misinterpreted it as a sent should have threat dumped before pulling aggro... My bad on that point

[Elusive_Thing]

True.. And I kinda reread the original quote I made... well. I completely misinterpreted it as a sent should have threat dumped before pulling aggro... My bad on that point

No worries.

 

As a sidenote, when I use a moderately geared tank in an FP or an Operation, I always seem to have a super keen, lightning fast, Carnage Marauder wearing Dread Master gear while the player has a bunch of lucky charms that make his toon crit on everything during Gore windows. Marauders will lead, even if my silly tank is doing his/her darnest to convince the group otherwise. Damn those two lightsabers and their leadership bonus.

[Ryuku-sama]

No worries.

 

As a sidenote, when I use a moderately geared tank in an FP or an Operation, I always seem to have a super keen, lightning fast, Carnage Marauder wearing Dread Master gear while the player has a bunch of lucky charms that make his toon crit on everything during Gore windows. Marauders will lead, even if my silly tank is doing his/her darnest to convince the group otherwise. Damn those two lightsabers and their leadership bonus.

 

That's Almight Lord Marauder for ya, heretic

[TACeMossie]

You try Tyrans on HM/NiM using the "never hold back" line, the moment tanks lose aggro in that fight they may as well type /stuck.

 

Im gonna hop in here. The tanks I run with can never stop me from pulling threat without having access to triple taunt.

Thankfully, HM/NiM Tyrans only needs 1 tank at a time, so they have access to a quintuple taunt.

 

So one tank starts with Grapple/Saber Throw/Force pull, does 2 moves, taunts, 3.5 GCDs of moves, AoE taunts, 3.5 GCDs, other tank taunts, 3.5 GCDs later and the other tank AoE taunts, and one last set of 3.5 GCDs and the first tank taunts again, and then I threat drop.

 

By that point, Despite the guard and the threat drop, im on 85k threat, and the tanks are sitting on a bare minimum of 124k threat (though its more likely gonna be 150k+ threat) and we dont worry bout having to deal with aggro again (it takes 16.25 seconds for me to close the gap of 85k -> 150k threat, and then another 4 seconds to get the 10% lead on that. But the tank is also generating his own aggro, and there are constant taunts due to simplification)

Edited September 11, 2014 by TACeMossie

[LilyJedi]

Not to mention Force Camouflage, unless I am mistaken, works on enemies who have targeted you at any point during the fight. The description here at Dulfy's seems to agree with that interpretation. There are multiple entries for Camo there, so this is the quote I am refering to:

 

 

 

Do dispute if you wish.

Just because it's on Dulfy's site doesn't make it correct. That section on threat, although it's repeated in every one of their DPS guides, is definitively wrong. Look at your combat logs for a definitive answer. (simple example, the claim about Cloud Mind only dropping aggro on the targetted mob is wrong for sure, because you can use it with a player targetted and still have mobs peel off you without any taunting or additional attacks from the player. Less anecdotally, when I look at the combat logs for my sage while in combat with a pack of mobs, there are multiple threat drop messages, one for each mob, often with different values -- because each mob has its' own threat table -- and this shows that Cloud Mind is decreasing your threat on each of those tables by 25%. The whole "mob targetting you" thing therefore would seem to be a misunderstanding of the basic fact that, unless you are actually on the threat table for a mob, it won't do anything to that mob's threat table).

 

EDIT: found a log with actual Force Camo entries from my Sentinel (renamed) during a recent S&V trash pull:

 

[21:18:13.783] [@MySentinel] [@MySentinel] [Force Camouflage {812096711294976}] [Event {836045448945472}: AbilityActivate {836045448945479}] ()
[21:18:13.783] [@MySentinel] [@MySentinel] [Force Camouflage {812096711294976}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Force Camouflage {812096711294976}] ()
[21:18:13.784] [@MySentinel] [Dustclaw Packling {3073581676232704}:19077000041420] [Force Camouflage {812096711294976}] [Event {836045448945472}: ModifyThreat {836045448945483}] () <-226206>
[21:18:13.784] [@MySentinel] [Dustclaw Ravager {3073590266167296}:19077000041774] [Force Camouflage {812096711294976}] [Event {836045448945472}: ModifyThreat {836045448945483}] () <-292919>
[21:18:13.784] [@MySentinel] [Dustclaw Ravager {3073590266167296}:19077000041584] [Force Camouflage {812096711294976}] [Event {836045448945472}: ModifyThreat {836045448945483}] () <-248709>
[21:18:13.784] [@MySentinel] [Dustclaw Ravager {3073590266167296}:19077000041679] [Force Camouflage {812096711294976}] [Event {836045448945472}: ModifyThreat {836045448945483}] () <-463724>
[21:18:15.061] [@MySentinel] [@MySentinel] [Force Camouflage {812096711294976}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Force Camouflage {812096711294976}] ()

 

This too clearly shows a threat drop vs. multiple targets, and I can guarantee that I wasn't being attacked by all of them at once because, being poorly geared, I'd have melted

Edited September 11, 2014 by LilyJedi

[Elusive_Thing]

Just because it's on Dulfy's site doesn't make it correct. That section on threat, although it's repeated in every one of their DPS guides, is definitively wrong. Look at your combat logs for a definitive answer. (simple example, the claim about Cloud Mind only dropping aggro on the targetted mob is wrong for sure, because you can use it with a player targetted and still have mobs peel off you without any taunting or additional attacks from the player).

That is why said the claim can be disputed. I haven't played on my Marauder or Sentinel for a while and I won't go find my old logs just for this. Will have a look when I play on either one though. Also, the Cloud Mind example doesn't really tell how Force Camo works. If Force Camouflage does not drop threat against enemies who have targeted you at any point during the fight, then what does it do?

[CheaterLL]

That is why said the claim can be disputed. I haven't played on my Marauder or Sentinel for a while and I won't go find my old logs just for this. Will have a look when I play on either one though. Also, the Cloud Mind example doesn't really tell how Force Camo works. If Force Camouflage does not drop threat against enemies who have targeted you at any point during the fight, then what does it do?

 

AFAIK only against Enemies who are targeting you at the exact time you pop FC.

[LilyJedi]

AFAIK only against Enemies who are targeting you at the exact time you pop FC.

No. See my edited log fragment above, I was not being "targetted" by 4 mobs at once -- I was on their threat table, but they were not all attacking me.

[FrozenGoalie]

If Force Camouflage does not drop threat against enemies who have targeted you at any point during the fight, then what does it do?

 

Reduce threats against all enemies.

[LilyJedi]

Reduce threats against all enemies.

 

against all enemies that have you on the threat table, yes. That isn't the same as reducing threat only on enemies that happen to be hitting you at the moment.

[bdatt]

Im gonna hop in here. The tanks I run with can never stop me from pulling threat without having access to triple taunt.

 

While your post and others are true, this thread is about behavior in group finder content, not NiM progression. And this recent derailment was specifically about a flashpoint, in which a tank with comm gear who is doing entry level 55 gearing content and still learning the role of tank was grouped with a more experienced dps likely in much stronger gear who refused the opportunity to extend even the smallest effort to help improve the gameplay of that inexperienced tank.

 

I prefer the stories in this thread like the one about the player that went all RP with the Ack dog pet in Collicoid. Most of the posts now should go to a "the inexperienced people you meet in group finder, where they need to be to learn their role yet I'll make fun of them anyway" thread.

[Feneckus]

The intended solution isn't holding back. Never. Every bit of DPS may be important... No the solution is to ACTUALLY taunt. .

 

It depends.

 

If you engage right after a Shadow/Assassin uses Force Pull, then ok, why not.

 

But engaging right after a Guardian's/Juggernaut's Saber Throw ? When it does pathetic damage/threat and his first high threat attack is two global cooldowns away ? That's a terrible idea.

 

Also, on some bosses waiting just a few seconds is what you should do. Most notably Tyrans in HM/Nim. A DPS pulling aggro is really something you do not want to see, he'll be all over the place and might drop Thundering Blast on the whole raid. And it's not like you can blame tanks anyway, they don't have 100% accuracy, if they're being unlucky, their high threat attacks will miss.

 

And that boss in Czerka Meltdown you have to debuff by destroying those big mushrooms. DPSing before the first mushroom is destroyed is just stupid.

[Khevar]

The intended solution isn't holding back. Never. Every bit of DPS may be important.

Ah, yes. All those fights where you hit the enrage timer if anyone in your group does less than 4k dps from the start!!

 

 

Silly rabbit.

 

The only fights where dps is THAT important are ones handled by a NM progression group, not a pug.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Khevar

[ZeroPlus]

While your post and others are true, this thread is about behavior in group finder content, not NiM progression. And this recent derailment was specifically about a flashpoint, in which a tank with comm gear who is doing entry level 55 gearing content and still learning the role of tank was grouped with a more experienced dps likely in much stronger gear who refused the opportunity to extend even the smallest effort to help improve the gameplay of that inexperienced tank.

 

I prefer the stories in this thread like the one about the player that went all RP with the Ack dog pet in Collicoid. Most of the posts now should go to a "the inexperienced people you meet in group finder, where they need to be to learn their role yet I'll make fun of them anyway" thread.

 

Quite right regarding the intent of this thread.

 

However I would like to comment on the section of your post that I highlighted.

 

Weird (funny, strange, noobish) behaviour in a flashpoint while levelling is understandable even if we do so enjoy laughing about (and "at") said behaviour.

 

But, as you stated yourself, this is level 55 content. Is it understandable that they don't know their role? Is it understandable that they acuse someone of taunting when they obviously cannot? Is it understandable that they are "learning the basics" at 55?

 

I personally don't think so.

 

Should it be "our" responsability to teach them at level 55 what they should have learnt while levelling? Again, I don't think so. Especially if you consider that they didn't learn it during 55 levels of levelling, what makes you think they are even willing to learn from someone that they believe is in the wrong?

 

Just wanted to leave that out there...

 

Now, let's get back to stories about the weird people you meet in Group Finder.

[Ryuku-sama]

It depends.

 

If you engage right after a Shadow/Assassin uses Force Pull, then ok, why not.

 

But engaging right after a Guardian's/Juggernaut's Saber Throw ? When it does pathetic damage/threat and his first high threat attack is two global cooldowns away ? That's a terrible idea.

 

Also, on some bosses waiting just a few seconds is what you should do. Most notably Tyrans in HM/Nim. A DPS pulling aggro is really something you do not want to see, he'll be all over the place and might drop Thundering Blast on the whole raid. And it's not like you can blame tanks anyway, they don't have 100% accuracy, if they're being unlucky, their high threat attacks will miss.

 

And that boss in Czerka Meltdown you have to debuff by destroying those big mushrooms. DPSing before the first mushroom is destroyed is just stupid.

 

TAC explained how to do Tyrans without having your DPS to hold back -.- And why in all holy hell would a Guardian open with Saber Throw?? Except if you open with ST AND Saber Reflect, you're better to Leap > Sweep > Combat Focus > Guardian Slash.