Subscription: Advertisement vs Truth

[MisterMuse]

That wasn't to you..

 

Aha, my bad .

[MajikMyst]

I have no problem with the Barber Shop, just the fact that when I create my next character I'll have to use my CC to unlock a Creation option.

 

You are not unlocking a creation option.. You are unlocking another species like you have had to do for any other species you didn't have..

 

Again, what is the issue here??

[MisterMuse]

You are not unlocking a creation option.. You are unlocking another species like you have had to do for any other species you didn't have..

 

Again, what is the issue here??

 

But I could have the other species, the exclusiveness to the CM it what has me thinking that its not principally right according to what we've been told. There is no race in the game at the status quo which rely on the CM.

[Jeweledleah]

How quickly we forget about Makeb and the expansion..

 

When was the expansion release?? Are we a month and half to 2 months after the release yet?? No??

 

Well?? They have been meeting that goal of 6-8 weeks since pretty much Sept. of last year.. In fact in many ways, beating it..

 

Makeb was a paid expansion. not the same as free content updates we've been promised. please pay attention. however, if we're going to call 2.0 (rather than Makeb)as one of those free CONTENT updates we've been promised (which it does qualify as) then Cathar and customization most certainly count as CONTENT patch. so far we had gree as non cartel update, then bunch of cartel stuff, then 2.0 that was essentially to prep for Makeb and now... cartel stuff only again?

 

edited to add - I did NOT ignore my monthly grant. you are ignoring what I said.

 

right now I'm paying $15 a month for minor conveniences and 500 coins. I could be playing for $10 a month without some of the minor conveniences... and 1040 coins.

so.. essentially, I'm paying about $10 a month for minor conveniences. I feel so speshul now...

Edited April 27, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[DarthZak]

You are not unlocking a creation option.. You are unlocking another species like you have had to do for any other species you didn't have..

 

Again, what is the issue here??

 

And I could unlock any species with various means, get one to lvl50, pay 1mil in-game credits, buy with CC's

Now you dont have the choice anymore, you gotta pay up

 

To say the Cathar species or the barbershop isnt content is a straight up lol. They are part of the minor content patches they promised to give every 6-8 weeks, like you said earlier, its all about the definitions so either it is a content patch as promised and theyre basing it on the CM only or it isnt the patch they promised us and theyre screwing with us. And for the comment "How long has it been since Makeb?" its simple: its been 3 weeks now and theyre now giving us previews of what to expect in 2.1, usually after they give out info you can expect the release within 4-5 week which fits in rather nicely dont you think?

 

The monthly grant is given as a gift, does it continue being a gift when they expect you to use it on things like this? Youre supposed to have fun with a gift, not feel like you have to do anything with it.

We specially dont like being pushed into spending for stuff we've been asking for since launch or theyve been talking about since pre-F2P

[WarbNull]

So from what we've heard of the new 2.1 update it seems as both the new race, Cathar and the new customization options are being put into the cartel market. As such I'd like to draw attention to a page that Bioware themselves used as commercial for subscribing.

 

http://www.swtor.com/free/features

 

We've been constantly promised that subscribers would have full access to character customization. You guys at Bioware going to update that soon and stop making false advertisement? While I'm sure that the F2P and Cartel Market pushed this game forward there seemed to be a trend to make some actual content in this game a P2W hybrid where either you have to have enough in-game money to buy packs off the GTN or enough real-money to buy packs of the CM.

I have actually been mentioning this for a while now. In fact I mentioned again yesterday and it is currently the last posting in that thread on the Cathar Species.

 

So I agree with you on this. They are going against what they have written and they should either change what they have written or make access to the new Species free for subscribers. We should not have to unlock it through the cartel market. That is my view on this subject.

 

Look here at what you didn't post from the link..

 

Free access to any and all new species added to the game now and in the future..

 

Get it now?? Come on dude.. You are stretching it really thin there.. I mean thin!!

 

You do have full access to the character creation.. And all characters that you have access too.. That doesn't grant you access to all species ever added to the game.. Dude.. Read what you are posting!! The cather species doesn't qualify as character creation options..

 

Character creation options is hair style or eye color and stuff like that.. Not species.. And we never had full access to all the species to begin with.. We either had to pay credits for the ones we didn't have or level to 50 to get them.. We never got them for free.. I don't get what your issue is..

 

You are wrong on the part highlighted in GREEN.

Look at what they say for the Preferred Status and Free-To-Play options when you hover your mouse over them. The they both list access to only three species options. So BioWare counts the Species as Character Creation Options.

 

As for the use of Cater Coins for this. Just because a Subscriber gets a free Allotment of Cartel Coins each month it still goes against what BioWare has Written about what Subscribers get. That is the Principle of the matter here.

 

On the subject of Cartel Coins:

Sure we can use our coins for them to get it even though that goes against what BioWare has listed for Subscribers. But since we are talking about Cartel Coins we might as well look at them a little closer. Not everyone gets 600 Coins as there Allotment. The lowest a Subscriber can get is 500, which is what many get. If they stay in line with what they are charging for species already it should be the 600 Coins that people have mentioned. For those that do not get that many coins each month then they will have to either wait a month to purchase the species or purchase more coins in order to get it. I will say that not everyone can purchase more coins for one reason or another. I might as well toss that out there as well since I am on the subject. Also what about those subscribers that have already spent all there coins. They would have a wait a month or more to get access to the species. Just saying.

 

Speaking of the cost of the species. It is pretty much around half what many subscribers paid for the RoTHC Expansion. So they are essentially charging half the price of cost there Expansion for just a Species. In MMO's Species are normally added to the game through Expansions. They are doing this in a patch for the Cartel Market. People should ask themselves if they really think it is right to charge half the price of what they offered for an Expansion just for access to a Species that we normally would see added with such an Expansion. They have essentially removed from the expansion part of what we expect to be in them.

 

In reality if you look at the allotment they offer us subscribers it is not a lot in terms of what they charge for things in the Cartel Market. We get anywhere from 500 to 800 monthly. That is just monthly charges and does not include the one time complementary coins we got for other reasons. Many of the new items offered like say a suit of Armor is over 1000 coins. 1050 coins is $10 (US Dollars). Over $10 for a suit of Armor. Really? Can you say over priced. Heck a one month subscription cost $14.99 (Us Dollars). Now look at the cost of everything else in the Cartel Market. Is is not cheap is it? there are a few lost cost items but in general BioWare is trying to rake in as much money as possible and the F2P model is made to do that. They are just cashing in on that like many other companies have. More power to them but in the end do all of you really want to pay that much for all that? It is just a question for you all to think on. I really do not care for the answer because each person is entitled to there own opinions and desires. Heck if they offer something I really wanted I would think about buying it. So it does not matter to me. I think that people should just be aware of the cost of things that they are offering in the Cartel Market.

 

 

I will say this for what they are doing:

One good thing from them adding Species like this (in Patches not necessarily the Cartel Market) should be that we can get them faster instead of waiting for Expansions. Of course the way BioWare does things I highly doubt they will release them faster as they seem to be slow on doing things and mostly do not do what the most of the communities want them to do. Call me pessimistic but there track record is not the best out there in that regards.

 

 

Anyways...

 

In the end I personally think that they should make any New Species added to the game Accessible to Subscriber without any cost. For Preferred Status and Free-To-Play they should stick with charging. Be it there prices are to high in my opinion.

 

As for a Barber Shop: I personally would prefer to see that as an In-Game System that takes In-Game Credits and Cartel Coins. I would much rather like that than having it only in the Cartel Market. It should be done through an NPC Vendor on a Planet or god forbid the Stupid Fleet.

[Andryah]

They can't expect u to spend those on regular content updates without explicitly stating it somewhere, so all subcribers would know their monthly CCs are given to them to purchase regular content updates.

 

They made it clear in their F2P promotions leading up to release that they would give subscribers free coins each month PRECISELY FOR THIS.

 

Your decision to ignore this rests entirely with you.

[Andryah]

But I could have the other species, the exclusiveness to the CM it what has me thinking that its not principally right according to what we've been told. There is no race in the game at the status quo which rely on the CM.

 

Normal MMO approach to adding a new species: Buy their $50 expansion to gain access

 

SWTOR approach to adding a new species: spend some of your FREE subscriber coins you get each month.

 

In many ways.. the SWTOR approach is better because you only unlock the species IF you want to use it. If not.. spend coins on something else when it comes along. No need to buy a large expansion just to get a new species. They are taking a micro-transaction approach to expansion content and doing so in a way that give subscribers much lower cost to aquire then non-subs.

 

People really need to think things through more logically then just jerking their knees up into their foreheads IMO.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Andryah

[JediJonesJr]

So from what we've heard of the new 2.1 update it seems as both the new race, Cathar and the new customization options are being put into the cartel market. As such I'd like to draw attention to a page that Bioware themselves used as commercial for subscribing.

 

http://www.swtor.com/free/features

 

We've been constantly promised that subscribers would have full access to character customization. You guys at Bioware going to update that soon and stop making false advertisement? While I'm sure that the F2P and Cartel Market pushed this game forward there seemed to be a trend to make some actual content in this game a P2W hybrid where either you have to have enough in-game money to buy packs off the GTN or enough real-money to buy packs of the CM.

 

If i have to buy cartel points to gain a feature i should get as a paid sub i'll cancel and go play something else and i would hope others would do the same thing.

 

also with the new internet taxing coming soon some of these cartel buying players will be paying more so watch out BW/EA you might not want to piss off the subs again pass that on to the chief in charge at EA pogo Land

[MoobooMagoo]

I'm way too lazy to read this whole thread, but here is my response to the OP

Just because the customization options and Cathar are coming to the Cartel market doesn't mean they are exclusively coming to the cartel market. 2.1 will launch and it is more than likely subscribers will just have Cathar available.

 

Unless Bioware has said otherwise I see no reason to think it will happen any other way (I haven't been following this very closely so they very well might have).

[DarthZak]

They made it clear in their F2P promotions leading up to release that they would give subscribers free coins each month PRECISELY FOR THIS.

 

Your decision to ignore this rests entirely with you.

 

Actually they made it quite clear that the coins given to subs are meant as gifts/loyalty rewards, they didnt mention anything about having to use them on new content. Its kinda like if I give you a voucher for your birthday and then force you to use it on something I wanna do, kinda stops being a gift then doesnt it?

 

Normal MMO approach to adding a new species: Buy their $50 expansion to gain access

 

SWTOR approach to adding a new species: spend some of your FREE subscriber coins you get each month.

 

In many ways.. the SWTOR approach is better because you only unlock the species IF you want to use it. If not.. spend coins on something else when it comes along. No need to buy a large expansion just to get a new species. They are taking a micro-transaction approach to expansion content and doing so in a way that give subscribers much lower cost to aquire then non-subs.

 

People really need to think things through more logically then just jerking their knees up into their foreheads IMO.

 

Huh.. I never payed $50 for expansions, usually around $30. And I was ok with Makeb costing $10, its perfect value for money since most proper exp packs are about 3-4x as big.

What they could do is offer a discount to the people who bought RotHC, not only would it appease current subscribers but also might boost the RotHC sales

 

Your rhetoric of "No need to buy a whole expansion for a species" is kinda bad, its an MMO so nobody will say "Well I got this species but bugger the new content I got with it, I dont want that!"

 

Also saying that subs aquire it lower than nonsubs is very very wrong, we aquire it at the right price, nonsubs overpay quite a lot. This is a common marketing tactic

[DarthZak]

I'm way too lazy to read this whole thread, but here is my response to the OP

Just because the customization options and Cathar are coming to the Cartel market doesn't mean they are exclusively coming to the cartel market. 2.1 will launch and it is more than likely subscribers will just have Cathar available.

 

Unless Bioware has said otherwise I see no reason to think it will happen any other way (I haven't been following this very closely so they very well might have).

 

Euhm its already confirmed by BW that Cathar will be CM exclusive

[DarthSabreth]

Meh i do love SWTOR, when the cartel market came out i really liked it, it ofered a luxury that you didnt need and could use if you wanted it too. i really enjoyed the consumables and perks for the legacy.

 

But with everything comes balance..... there is always a point or a slipery slope that non should cross. Im not saying BW has crossed this line or do i mean to infer they did but below i want to point out an extreme example of what would be rediculous.

 

A person goes to a restaurant, at the door a sign says entrance fee $1.00. the person pays the bouncer $1.00.

he enters the restaurant and a person shows him a sign that reads.

 

seating $1.00

chair rental $1.00 per min

waitress rental $2.00 per min

chef fee $25.00 per min per meal

lighting charge $1.00 per min

heating fee $10.00 per meal

utensil fee $10.00

clean up fee $10.00

ink to print the bill .25

menue rental $1.00 per min.

 

you decide to agree with the terms

I'll order the steak

ok the waitress says.

the meal costs you $15.00

steak delivery to the restaurant $15.00

gas to have the steak delivered $8.00

grill clean up fee $8.00

spices and sauce to cook the steak $3.50

plate rental $2.50 per min.

 

this may sound extreme but where is the cut off point to rediculousness? when is entertainment turned into a bilking or hastle. where is the point that no company, entity, or org, should cross?

 

Right now i feel its fine, but it does seem that that slope seems to be dipping over time.

[branmakmuffin]

They don't have to tell you anything. The money you get from your entitlement is yours to spend on whatever you want. What ever you spend it on, those are FREE coins. You did not pay for them. They came as part of your subscription.

And unless you pay $0 for your sub, the included CC are not free. The only free CC I know of (and I'm not 100% sure about this) are the 100 per month you get with the sec key phone app.

 

Although I agree with your underlying assertions.

 

this may sound extreme but where is the cut off point to rediculousness? when is entertainment turned into a bilking or hastle. where is the point that no company, entity, or org, should cross?

 

Right now i feel its fine, but it does seem that that slope seems to be dipping over time.

When it reaches your personal point of ridiculousness, you will quit. When it reaches mine, I will quit. I have other things I can spend my money and leisure time on should TOR fail to satisfy my entertainment desires. The free market works for some things (including computer games and yachts).

Edited April 27, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Kubernetic]

I have no problem with the Barber Shop, just the fact that when I create my next character I'll have to use my CC to unlock a Creation option.

 

How so? Again, when that page was published, Cathar did not exist.

 

Again, nothing has been misrepresented. You know why they're charging for Cathar and that it's being added in after the fact.

 

This is all much ado about nothing.

[CelCawdro]

Just a reminder.. We as subscibers have always had to purchase additional races that we didn't have.. What is the issue here?? You either had to level one to 50, or buy it.. This one is just to purchase on the CM.. So what?? 600CC big deal..

 

So seriously.. Truth is truth here.. There is nothing wrong with them putting the new Cathar race in the Cartel Market..

 

If we didn't have to buy all the others ones, you might have a complaint.. But they are not doing anything that they didn't already do before..

 

Technically, no. We could always level them to 50 to unlock them for other classes.

[Andryah]

Actually they made it quite clear that the coins given to subs are meant as gifts/loyalty rewards, they didnt mention anything about having to use them on new content.

 

Yeah.. they did. They specifically said that the monthly allowance of coins subs recieve would allow subscribers to buy new content released through the CCM without having to pay incremental $$ above subscription price for coins. And some subscribers have been pissing and moaning and predicting doom every since.

 

And by the way... that is an industry standard practice for freemium MMOs.. so let's not pretend like Bioware pissed in everyones Cheerios. It's part of how the business model incents people to subscribe rather then free-load. Anyone who accumulates and manages their monthly coin allowance even halfway intelligently will never pay a dime beyond their monthly sub. People who do not.. that's on them.

 

You are confusing the monthly allowance from your sub with the gift/loyalty payouts they made to players at the launch of F2P. The lump sum payouts at start of F2P WERE GIFTS/LOYALTY_REWARDS.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Andryah

[Soluss]

How quickly we forget about Makeb and the expansion..

 

When was the expansion release?? Are we a month and half to 2 months after the release yet?? No??

 

Well?? They have been meeting that goal of 6-8 weeks since pretty much Sept. of last year.. In fact in many ways, beating it..

 

We paid extra for Makeb.

[Soluss]

Normal MMO approach to adding a new species: Buy their $50 expansion to gain access

 

SWTOR approach to adding a new species: spend some of your FREE subscriber coins you get each month.

 

In many ways.. the SWTOR approach is better because you only unlock the species IF you want to use it. If not.. spend coins on something else when it comes along. No need to buy a large expansion just to get a new species. They are taking a micro-transaction approach to expansion content and doing so in a way that give subscribers much lower cost to aquire then non-subs.

 

People really need to think things through more logically then just jerking their knees up into their foreheads IMO.

 

Bad argument. We just got a 10 dollar expansion. It should have been packaged with it. Im sure your arguement will be that WoW charges 50 bucks for their expansion with a new race but those expansions include a hella lot more then Makeb did. 1 race will not be the difference between 10 and 50 bucks.

[Soluss]

Yeah.. they did. They specifically said that the monthly allowance of coins subs recieve would allow subscribers to buy new content released through the CCM without having to pay incremental $$ above subscription price for coins. And some subscribers have been pissing and moaning and predicting doom every since.

 

And by the way... that is an industry standard practice for freemium MMOs.. so let's not pretend like Bioware pissed in everyones Cheerios. It's part of how the business model incents people to subscribe rather then free-load. Anyone who accumulates and manages their monthly coin allowance even halfway intelligently will never pay a dime beyond their monthly sub. People who do not.. that's on them.

 

You are confusing the monthly allowance from your sub with the gift/loyalty payouts they made to players at the launch of F2P. The lump sum payouts at start of F2P WERE GIFTS/LOYALTY_REWARDS.

 

So you are saying the Cathar race is content then? Guess that solves the other guys arguement that it isnt free because it isnt content.

[Infernixx]

Bad argument. We just got a 10 dollar expansion. It should have been packaged with it. Im sure your arguement will be that WoW charges 50 bucks for their expansion with a new race but those expansions include a hella lot more then Makeb did. 1 race will not be the difference between 10 and 50 bucks.

 

Cathar wasn't ready to be released with Makeb and the rest of the HC content, else they would have done so.

[DarthZak]

Yeah.. they did. They specifically said that the monthly allowance of coins subs recieve would allow subscribers to buy new content released through the CCM without having to pay incremental $$ above subscription price for coins. And some subscribers have been pissing and moaning and predicting doom every since.

 

And by the way... that is an industry standard practice for freemium MMOs.. so let's not pretend like Bioware pissed in everyones Cheerios. It's part of how the business model incents people to subscribe rather then free-load. Anyone who accumulates and manages their monthly coin allowance even halfway intelligently will never pay a dime beyond their monthly sub. People who do not.. that's on them.

 

You are confusing the monthly allowance from your sub with the gift/loyalty payouts they made to players at the launch of F2P. The lump sum payouts at start of F2P WERE GIFTS/LOYALTY_REWARDS.

 

Couldve sworn I saw Stephen Reid saying something a long the lines of "We're giving you a gift every month of X amount of Cartel Coins for you to spend as you see fit, this is a loyalty reward to those who subscribed and believe in us."

You do know the meaning of gift right? Lets say I give you a coupon for your birthday and then make a "suggestion" that forces you to use your coupon to do what I like, is it still a gift?

And dont give me the "If you dont like it dont buy it"-line since its built on bs reasoning. Thats the logic that made so many people quit this game, rather than giving feedback and vocally disagreeing and taking on the discussion they just quit.

 

Wait... this turned into a freemium MMO now? Huh... I always thought this was a subscriber MMO with F2P as its secondary form of income, they sure make it seem like it. But youre right, F2P is freemium and subscriptions are not far behind with only a few minor advantages

This game doesnt give incentives to pay a subscription, it gives an incentive to use the CM regardless of whether youre a sub or F2P and how do you figure people wont pay a dime? Can I sell my monthly cartel coin reward back?

 

And nope they stated quite clearly, even in their own KB, that this is a monthly reward. They can change it for all I care but as it stands is says you get a monthly reward for having a subscription

[DarthZak]

Cathar wasn't ready to be released with Makeb and the rest of the HC content, else they would have done so.

 

Right because they really needed those 4 weeks right?

[Master-Nala]

We've been constantly promised that subscribers would have full access to character customization.

 

No, you weren't. Everything you were 'promised' is in the terms of service. Which isn't a lot by the way. Effectively we pay EA for whatever they choose to provide. You have agreed that your sole remedy is to cease using the service. You do not have to take my word for it, read it for yourself.

 

http://tos.ea.com/legalapp/WEBTERMS/US/en/PC/#section21

[Jemfisto]

Subscribers get a monthly grant of cartel coins and we were told MONTHS in advanced Cathar would be on the cartel market. If you as a subscriber feel ripped off by Bioware then it is YOUR fault for not researching. You will have to wait one month to get them for free.