Surprising finds with Jugg/Guardian DPS

[NvrShoutNvr]

tl;dr: it's good, I recommend giving it a shot.

 

Ever since the game launched, Marauders/Sentinels have always been the choice for melee DPS slots. Most people looked at Juggernauts/Guardians and scoffed and said "Lolno, go be a tank", and Powertech/Vanguard or Assassin/Shadow DPS was virtually nonexistent. But, I have some shocking news for the swtor world. Vengeance is, dare I say it, good. on a 6 minute parse on a 55 operation training dummy with no stims, but fully buffed, I did an average of 1946 DPS. bottom-left numbers are the 6 minute parse, bottom-right numbers are the numbers throughout the day, did alot of pvp today. I was level 53 at the time of this parse.

 

parse screencap: http://tinypic.com/r/10dtyy0/4

Spec (what I use for PvP, could probably be optimized for PvE a little better): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101MMZfRrRruddGGR.3

 

Yeah. I know. My gear was min/maxed War Hero/Elite War Hero gear. Due to a recent patch Bioware did to fix the PvP and bolster system, they removed any and all expertise from War Hero/Elite Ware Hero gear and gave all the gear a stat boost. So with my gear, that would be equivalent to Black Hole/Dread Guard. So, Juggernauts/Guardians are no longer "only a tank" and can now compete with Marauders/Sentinels for melee DPS for raiding. Just something to keep in mind if you're wanting to start a new character.

[PoliteAssasin]

Actually at launch people commonly, and erroneously, thought marauders were a bad class as well as easy kills. Vengeance was the go to melee spec for quite a while until they nerfed it several times. Even with the nerf, vengeance was still the best 1v1 spec due to its single target burst and extra defensive utility. Edited April 21, 2013 by PoliteAssasin

[Raazmir]

Also a bunch of the powertech nerfs that came in at the last minute for 2.0 were because a powertech AP/pyro dot stacking build was blowing every other class out of the water in PVE.

 

 

It's the same kind of think that's going to have players sticking with marksman. It's the spec that suffers most from being stationary, it has very few abilities that bypass armor completely, but it feels like sniping so people stick with it. It isn't completely useless by any means, its got a lot of neat tricks but with the current patch engineering is going to out PVE you due to OP roll maneuver on large/medium bosses, and lethality is going to outperform you in pvp due to spammable corrosive grenade + takedown proccing at the end of basically every cull+ internal damage bypassing a significant source of damage reduction from the warrior/tech/merc heavy meta on BC..

[ericthenut]

Imagine that now a Jugg can go do pve too...... I can honestly say I am sincerley tired of this class....it's like a 5 year old that goes to thier grandma's house and gets everthing they want. Bioware fixes and buffs everthing for the class, 2.0 comes everyone wanted a nerf to rage and we got one...and hoestly a fair nerf too. Besides the 100% chance to still crit, but thats a pvp topic. Then you look at the other classes nothing but the already played specs got buffed....lethality on the operative still doesn't cull enough, this might be biast since I have a sniper and realize how good this spec really is. Arsenal mercs got a good buff, but thats the only thing still optimal for the class. Powertech got a nerf, this is underexagerating, it may just be the worst class in the game now:(. I swear Biofail's employees only play warriors because they see whats wrong and then get everything they ask for, fairly.

 

P.S. And I've been putting this in every forum post I post. I quit as of June 1, 2013 if TTK and bolster isn't fixed, I don't really care about the class thing. After playing this game for a year and a half I realize how bad Biofail is at class balancing. I have seven 50s so choosing the juggernaut (my new word for 'overpowered') class isn't hard for me.

Edited April 21, 2013 by ericthenut

[JamesBalla]

No, not really. Guardian Tanks were trash after 1.2, and after 1.4 vigilance got a really, really large nerf. Focus got buffed, but oh well. It's not really OP. Sure you can crit hard on sweeps, but you lose an immense amount of survivability. The class is pretty balanced, it just seems OP in PvP because smash puts up high numbers.

[ericthenut]

No jugg or gaurdian has any valid argument to say their class isn't overpowered. The class has never been nerfed to the the point of unplayable so no main jugg or gaurdian player can have the feeling that they miss their class, like almost every other class in this game has. As someone who was an assassin during the 1.2 nerf and now another armor nerf with 2.0, was a powertech pre-2.0, and now a sniper. There has always been a spec that has been playable on the jugg and the class has never experienced any of the nerfs or unplayabitliy that half the other class have. Focus isn't op? 100% chance to get a 5k+ on up to 5 players when every other class in the game gets a nerf to crit isn't op? The same exact trolls about that spec with just keep coming for that exact reason. I could care less about choke granting shockwave, etc. but seriously 100% chance to crit on anything post-2.0 is like finding a gold mine in your backyard. No surviveability? Guardian: A new ability, Saber Reflect, has been added. Saber Reflect reflects all direct, single target ranged, Force, and Tech damage back to the attacker for 3 seconds. This ability is trainable at level 51. I don't know where your getting nerfs to immortal, I looked at the patch notes there isn't anything that looks to make the spec unplayable, maybe a little nerf here and there but still the most optimal for pvp and pve as a main tank since the begining of the game. Edited April 21, 2013 by ericthenut

[Bellumpvp]

No jugg or gaurdian has any valid argument to say their class isn't overpowered.

 

Smash may hit for 8k but at the same time guardians lack in survivability when they get high up in the focus tree.

 

They've been overpowered before 2.0 and are still OP post 2.0

 

The main issue for me is the 100% crit. Make it 70% and force these guys to throw some crit rating in their gear. Most guys just stack surge and power because they never have to worry about not getting a crit.

[ericthenut]

70% isn't low enough since the average crit at 55 is 25% they would pretty much be at 100% chance anyway. I say just make it so only obliterate can have the 100% chance and not the charge and put on the spec that gives the 100% chance the effect, "the effect cannot occur more than once every 20 seconds."

[PoliteAssasin]

Aaaaannd that didn't take long for this to turn into a smash QQ thread.

[MagnysDarksong]

Aaaaannd that didn't take long for this to turn into a smash QQ thread.

 

Pretty sure it was from the start.

[PoliteAssasin]

Not at all. He's claiming all Jugg dps were horrible, forcing people to go tank. (Wrong, but that was his claim). No smash QQ in the OP.

[hulcalan]

no one talks about the 8k vicious throws or the 6k force screams or the 10k ravages.. just lots of QQ for the smash... which is a 5 meter range ...

 

~edit~ in fact smash is the most telegraph ability in this game....i dont get the QQ

Edited April 22, 2013 by hulcalan

[PoliteAssasin]

no one talks about the 8k vicious throws or the 6k force screams or the 10k ravages.. just lots of QQ for the smash... which is a 5 meter range ...

 

~edit~ in fact smash is the most telegraph ability in this game....i dont get the QQ

 

What are these strange things you speak of??

[hulcalan]

oh and for the OP .. I think you will find this spec a little more umph in your damage

[Trixdope]

http://youtu.be/laxyoaHOP1c

 

Basically sums up what im seeing from defense.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Trixdope

[DarthSpekulatius]

...and now another armor nerf with 2.0...

 

stopped reading here.

can't wait for the day when your subscription expires.

You have attempted to sign a petition if it's possible for them to delete your account?

that would speed things up considerably in the right direction.

Edited April 22, 2013 by DarthSpekulatius

[PoliteAssasin]

Lol Deyvon.

[xContex]

no one talks about the 8k vicious throws or the 6k force screams or the 10k ravages.. just lots of QQ for the smash... which is a 5 meter range ...

 

~edit~ in fact smash is the most telegraph ability in this game....i dont get the QQ

 

Don't give anyone any bright ideas =p

[NvrShoutNvr]

well, Defense made damn sure that no one will ever take him seriously. Ever. But then again, did anyone take him seriously before? As for the "smash QQ" thing, that wasn't my intention with this post. Although I mostly played my Jugg in PvP asVengeance, I did want to raid with it, but most of my guild mates said Jugg DPS was insufficient for end-game content like TFB hard mode or Nightmare Denova. I wasn't aware that Jugg DPS was viable pre-2.0 and that was all I meant by this post. That obviously was not the case, but the Vengeance tree is putting up promising numbers as of 2.0 and I'm interested to see what a boss fight parse will look like. Didn't mean to start a war here, was just posting up something I thought was interesting

[NvrShoutNvr]

Not at all. He's claiming all Jugg dps were horrible, forcing people to go tank. (Wrong, but that was his claim). No smash QQ in the OP.

 

You misunderstood me. I never said Jugg DPS was horrible, I was just always under the impression that it wasn't up to snuff for end-game PVE, which in turn, made most Jugg players go tank. This is obviously not the case.

[Riggz]

Defense made many solid points, but if the juggernaut community wants to troll him for making fun of the class that has been overpowered since 1.4, go for it.

 

lolsmashrolfstomp umadbro

 

 

Granted its not nearly as bad as it was, but Juggernauts have never gone through any period of time in this game where all three trees were broken.

 

Look at Dragon's mercenary for example. All three of his trees have been dog **** since 1.2 and still are. He had to reroll a damn sorc

 

Only things mercenaries are good for is roleplaying and fashion.

 

edit: I'd like to see someone post saying there never had problems with smash being overpowered that don't have a juggernaut/guardian main or serious alt. Kind of hard to take someone seriously saying smash isn't/wasn't op when its their main or second alt

Edited April 22, 2013 by Riggz

[NvrShoutNvr]

Defense made many solid points, but if the juggernaut community wants to troll him for making fun of the class that has been overpowered since 1.4, go for it.

 

lolsmashrolfstomp umadbro

 

 

Granted its not nearly as bad as it was, but Juggernauts have never gone through any period of time in this game where all three trees were broken.

 

Look at Dragon's mercenary for example. All three of his trees have been dog **** since 1.2 and still are. He had to reroll a damn sorc

 

Only things mercenaries are good for is roleplaying and fashion.

 

edit: I'd like to see someone post saying there never had problems with smash being overpowered that don't have a juggernaut/guardian main or serious alt. Kind of hard to take someone seriously saying smash isn't/wasn't op when its their main or second alt

 

Smash was absolutely OP pre-2.0 and some can still make the claim that it still is, although I never played Rage a lot. I gave it a shot after the expansion, and I just didn't seem to put out the numbers it used to, although I don't know the class as well as others do. I did dabble in it a bit between 1.6 and 2.0, but it's been mostly Vengeance since I started the Juggernaut. As for your "Mercs are *********" remark, I know a few Arsenal Mercs who might have something to say about that

[Bellumpvp]

Smash was absolutely OP pre-2.0 and some can still make the claim that it still is, although I never played Rage a lot. I gave it a shot after the expansion, and I just didn't seem to put out the numbers it used to, although I don't know the class as well as others do. I did dabble in it a bit between 1.6 and 2.0, but it's been mostly Vengeance since I started the Juggernaut. As for your "Mercs are *********" remark, I know a few Arsenal Mercs who might have something to say about that

 

Its definitely less OP then pre-2.0. But the 100% crit is kind of raw....

 

However, pre 2.0 I found Juggs much harder to 1v1 and marauders much easier. Now post- 2.0 Juggs are much easier and marauders are the tough bit.

 

I think they've toned down juggs enough to be on a level playing field, its just that 8k aoe is brutal. Especially when theres normally 2+ smashers per wz that are focus firing.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Bellumpvp

[NvrShoutNvr]

Its definitely less OP then pre-2.0. But the 100% crit is kind of raw....

 

However, pre 2.0 I found Juggs much harder to 1v1 and marauders much easier. Now post- 2.0 Juggs are much easier and marauders are the tough bit.

 

I think they've toned down juggs enough to be on a level playing field, its just that 8k aoe is brutal. Especially when theres normally 2+ smashers per wz that are focus firing.

 

completely agree. i'm just not the kind of guy who looks for the most OP spec and hops around as that changes to different classes. I play what I think is effective, as well as what I'm good at

[ericthenut]

My comments were off topic as to your original argument and didn't have anything to do with your main point being pve, I appologize. I read this post and just came out of a warzone against scyn on my sniper which I was actually surprised at my 2nd place damage because I didn't feel I did ****. I switched to my jugg and guess what? Scyn again, (This time Desirra and Flux were with him. We won the one before so he had to go get them.) but this time I was on my jugg and I can see why so many people play this class, damage is just given to you. My final argument, and this is just one example, it takes 3 global cooldowns plus a three second cast for a cull to equal one smash, if the smash is two or more targets it just did more. It takes 2 global cooldowns, when you use enrage to grant shockwave, to equal one smash. Do the math. Call it "QQ" all you want it simply isn't fair to all the other 'unplayable' classes. Oh and by the way, saber reflect, will resist all the damage to the jugg and reflect it all back to the sniper. Cull + Reflect + Smash + Execute = Dead sniper.

 

As for your "Mercs are *********" remark, I know a few Arsenal Mercs who might have something to say about that

That being said arsenal is completely viable in...pve...but if a good player goes against anyone on an arsenal mercenary in pvp the mercenary gets rofl stomped (Unless electro net is up, but meh, it's a 3 minute cooldown.).

 

Thats that I don't really care. I gave my two sense about what I know and if people want to troll whatever but the things I said have a legitmate argument and a lot of people know and agree they need to be adressed (Including mercenarys in pvp.). It's just the majority of players, sadly, commenting on this thread actually have mains that are juggernauts, rage spec. It's simple psychology, if you love something so much you'll do anything to keep it. Just like I'm pissed about my poweretech. I could be a really big *** to Deyvon but I'd like to make my own descision on leaving the game, not get banned.

 

P.S. If you stopped at "....and another armor nerf after 2.0..." then you should go look at the spec again. "Hand of Darkness - Spike can now be used out of stealth mode." Pre-2.0 this also use to give a 20% increase to armor rating. I never said the assassin got a nerf, darkness got a pretty good buff actually. I have seen multiple assassins tank in 2.0 content, they take insane amounts of damage now even compared to before 2.0 content. Learn what your talking about before you comment dude.

Edited April 23, 2013 by ericthenut