Seriously, why should people study...

[LasherC]

Mostly speaking from the perspective of the tactics, and not from the perspective of any gear checks that were / are, but with the exception of LI, I found all the lvl 50 HMs too easy.

[Turshek]

It's the main reason I don't do end game PvE in many MMOs now.

 

For me, the best part of it is discovering the mechanics of an encounter and find with my guildmates what to do to beat the boss, trying different tactics, different group compositions, ...

 

The problem is that now for most people, that part isn't interesting as they are just focused on gearing their characters the most efficient way ie the fastest with the minimum of trial and errors.

 

For most people imo, raiding is reduced to be best and most efficient at playing your class while following a previously learned tactic. It's no more a thinking game, it's an efficiency test.

 

 

It's something imo game designers are overlooking. Most players will always try to find the most efficient, easiest, less painful way to achieve a goal. With raiding, it means learning a working tactic and applying it instead of having to find one yourselves. In "PvP", it means standing in line in a FFA PvP area to get a mission done instead of fighting each others.

 

It's just a problem of designing things the right way based on the goals you want to reach. If it's ok to have raiding reduced to a Pavlov's dog variation, fine don't change anything.

If you want players to actually deal with the mechanics of an encounter, if you want them to make mistakes and learn something from thoses, you have to design things another way, with more randomness and chaos, with more variations, with a more dynamic difficulty, with room for mistakes and ways for some players to save the try...

 

Beyond each encounter or content, there's also the way new players and experienced ones are mixed. If it's completely random and the game design puts them together all the time, you are asking for troubles. But again, with better designs, with different paths for each, with better progression, you can change how things are.

 

 

So while this problem comes from a difference in playstyle, how different ppl approach playing and what they expect, in the end, it's the game design that lead people through contents. If you want to please thoses different players, you have to take into account their different expectations.

[Seireeni]

I actually looked up tactics fof EC's minefield before doing it. And guess what? Didn't help me one bit. I was confused and mostly just shot what the other sniper in our group shooted and learned how to use those tools when another person in our group used it. (The reading I did actually gave me the idea that you are supposed to turn some place from red to yellow with the tools and the team would have 15 seconds time to pass through that spot.)

 

Also few days ago I looked up the tactics for this new ops and it looked mostly just confusing for me. Tbh, no matter if I read it or not, if you want to me to understand the fight, you have to explain it when we're next to the fight. For me, it really doesn't make that big difference if I read about it or not. I want to hear the tactics again when I can see that "okay, it isn't 'get some weird shield and put it to some weird place', it's more like 'get a shield from there and put it in there'." I'm not in some "raiding guild", I've only gotten the leadership of some pug ops, but for me, person who can listen to instructions and has the understanding of the game's basic mechanics > person who have read tactics online. Always.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Seireeni

[RetardRaptor]

This thread is a real winner. So what your saying is people shouldn't read before hand cause that ruins all the fun but instead be told how to do it in the operation on someone else s time? Lets face it when you go into an op and have no idea what to do you don't figure it out you make people explain to you what happens and isn't that the same as reading a guide? Why not save wasting someone else s time and get a general knowledge about what is going to happen during the fight before hand. So that after we wipe i don 't have to take my time to tell you everything that is in the guide you should have read. YOU ARE WASTING PEOPLES TIME BECAUSE YOUR TO LAZY TO GO READ.

[LordArtemis]

Meh. Some of my friends tried PVP for the first time with huttball, and reported it was a glorious clustertwinkie. Apparently they didn't care for it as it was clunky, but the folks playing were just as clueless as they were.

 

For every smart person there are ten idiots proving he exists. I'm thankfully a member of the latter...not the former.

Edited April 20, 2013 by LordArtemis

[melvp]

I, too, like to get surprised by the unknown which is why I usually don't read anything before I go into storymode flashpoints. But when it comes to hardmodes I try to be prepared. When I do a hardmode FP for the first time I use my dps as this role IMO is the most forgiving one and I can correct my mistakes fairly fast, only when I fully understand all mechanics I play my tank or healer. I also run thru the storymodes a few times (if possible solo) before I go to the hardmode just to memorize the map and the locations of the bosses. That for me doesn't take anything away from the "what comes next" feeling and I don't feel nervous about messing the whole group up. I have the storymodes for the roleplay and practicing, the hardmode for gearing up. Only for ops I study YouTube vids first but as my guild died down anyways I'm not doing ops anymore.

 

I'm sometimes just a bit annoyed when there is no communication at all but players storm off right away even tho everything could be a tad smoother if people waited for cc's. But if I run into a group that just wishes to get this FP over with ASAP and burn thru trash mobs like there's no tomorrow then fine. If I run into a chatty group, fine also. And if we teach a new player all the way through the FP that's cool with me, too. I just go with the tide.

 

The only suggestion for the developers I have is for warzones to offer a non-combat instance where people can go and check out the map without a WZ actually going on. I have to admit even after reading how tos and watching videos about huttball I still got lost or ended up in a dead end the first times I played it. That map can get very confusing especially when you hold the ball and cannot see anything anymore because you have all the enemy players over you.

[BewBo]

I absolutely agree, OP. It's a game - and should be played and played in order to get better at it.

People who yell at others are generally pretty unpleasant un-empathic idiots anyway, so don't sweat it too much.

 

I would say though, once you get to hard mode fps you should have some knowledge of what you're dealing with.

But, other than that, just go for it! To hell with the douchebags!

[zzoorrzz]

This thread is a real winner. So what your saying is people shouldn't read before hand cause that ruins all the fun but instead be told how to do it in the operation on someone else s time? Lets face it when you go into an op and have no idea what to do you don't figure it out you make people explain to you what happens and isn't that the same as reading a guide? Why not save wasting someone else s time and get a general knowledge about what is going to happen during the fight before hand. So that after we wipe i don 't have to take my time to tell you everything that is in the guide you should have read. YOU ARE WASTING PEOPLES TIME BECAUSE YOUR TO LAZY TO GO READ.

 

The part "should've read" is just not true. You can't expect people to read guides before they play via GF, there is no such rule. If u do, it's your problem. This is MMO, you're expected to communicate with people. If u want to keep talking as low as possible, then there is no point in playing multiplayer game.

[kevlarto]

I have been lucky, I had a static group of friends to run with we learned the encounters, and only if we were stuck, which did not happen in tor, would we look something up, part of playing a game for us is the fun of the learning curve, but times have changed back in the early eq days there were not guides no ventilo, it was fun times, back then, I would not want to return to those today, I am spoiled now with voice chat and easy play games they make these days, add in that the instant gaficiation crowd, seems like most people read guides and hints before they even try it, I think that is kinda sad to a point, takes a lot of the fun away in my book, but hey different strokes for different folks, and if that what others enjoy then rock on Edited April 20, 2013 by kevlarto

[Abradax]

I'm just going to throw this out there.

 

There is zero reason to be rude to your fellow players. If someone shows up and announces they have never done the FP before but read up on it a bit, I have zero problems taking a couple seconds to explain mechanics.

 

On the flip side, I get very frustrated with people that announce they have never done the FP before, and that they didn't bother reading up on any of the mechanics so they have the slightest idea of what is going on. That is perfectly ok if you are playing a single player game and are just wasting your own time dying over and over. But when your lack of preparedness affects four other player's time, and their pocket books in the form of death repairs that isn't ok.

[SithKoriandr]

I try to hold my breath until they are done with the movies. Just think, you non-spacebar people could, inevitably be taking a life... And, you'll have to live with it!

 

 

Don't worry. No life will be taken. You'd pass out first and then start breathing on your own

[SithKoriandr]

And who is he to waste MY time, and the time of all the other players in the group ? Playing your way is fine, as long as you don't negatively affect the people you are grouped with.

 

Then run it with like-minded people, or a group of friends/guildies that understands your situation and wants to support you.

 

So, I should waste even MORE of my time, because you can't be arsed to put any effort into it, or because you think that your playstyle is somehow more important than the playstyle of everyone else in the group ? Yeah, how about no.

 

You're exaggerating. It won't take more than a few minutes, and the things you have to memorize are generally pretty simple.

 

Or maybe you should run with like minded people and stay out of the ques. THere are plenty of guilds that are dedicated to "read this then we run it"

 

But reading your post, yeah, I can see what type of player you are. You're that type, even with an experienced team, with every member who's ran it over and over, and with one bad pull, you rage quit.

 

People put in effort by showing up, and willing to listen to what needs done. When I play a FP with someone who hasn't run one, I stop and say "Okay, this is what we do next" it's not that hard, really.

 

As for your repair bill, you're going to have one anyways. You telling me you freaked out about your repair bill as you leveled up?

[SithKoriandr]

This thread is a real winner. So what your saying is people shouldn't read before hand cause that ruins all the fun but instead be told how to do it in the operation on someone else s time? Lets face it when you go into an op and have no idea what to do you don't figure it out you make people explain to you what happens and isn't that the same as reading a guide? Why not save wasting someone else s time and get a general knowledge about what is going to happen during the fight before hand. So that after we wipe i don 't have to take my time to tell you everything that is in the guide you should have read. YOU ARE WASTING PEOPLES TIME BECAUSE YOUR TO LAZY TO GO READ.

 

So, you buy a new console game, pick up the guide and read everything about it first? Why bother to play the game? o.O

 

"Oh hey! Look at that, the last boss turns out to be my friend who betrayed me! Surprise ruined!"

 

Funny how people like you complain about doing group content in a group game, and how do you even think those guides get made that you link people to? They get made by people going in communicating and figuring things out.

 

You think they just went in, ran it perfectly the first time?

[AlexDougherty]

The problem here is you and your friend are queuing for group content with no idea what you are doing. PVP isn't so bad, you can learn and it doesn't cost anything but time for you and others.

 

The big problem is in flashpoints and ops. If you don't know what you are doing and die or worse get the group killed, you just cost everyone 10k credits repair bill, EACH DEATH! That's not much but if it can be avoided simply by you reading how to fight a boss before you encounter it, do that! Don't complain when you get booted from group for doing something stupid.

This entire different generation, they seem to forgot about the excitement of not knowing what comes next. Looking up the game and reading the strategies ruins the game for some people. With the internet and instant guides these days, some people use them before experiecing the gameplay first. Once you start to memorize the mechanics in a video game, then it will start to get easier and tedious.

 

In my opinion, this issues goes along with the fact that games are easier and more casual than in the 80's and early 90's. In most old school games, you are expected to die multiple times before you finish. These days some people get mad as soon if they die once.

These are the core issues, yes it is expensive to repair after you die, and yes people should be encouraged to learn through experience, unfortunately EA currently has vastly differing opinions on these matters compared to the average person.

Edited April 20, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[Bomyne]

You don't have to look up anything. It's a game, not a school exam, or work.

 

Decent veteran players will explain a fight before getting into it. Anyone that doesn't offer to do so is a bad player.

 

As for warzones, they are pretty simple. Most of what you need to do is explained on the loading screen and therest is explained by the VO.

[Alec_Fortescue]

Not to waste time for the people who are looking to finish/do the content instead of failing for hours because of some lazy fool. If you are so eager to fail, then do it on your own or with friends who have similar mindset. Not everyone has time to do this. Some "study" at work or school so they will be able to do the stuff they want to accomplish within the limited time frame they might have.

[Bomyne]

Not to waste time for the people who are looking to finish/do the content instead of failing for hours because of some lazy fool. If you are so eager to fail, then do it on your own or with friends who have similar mindset. Not everyone has time to do this. Some "study" at work or school so they will be able to do the stuff they want to accomplish within the limited time frame they might have.

 

To sum up this post, you're saying that people should ruin the excitement by going and looking up the content before doing it? Why? Because you're too lazy to take a minute to explain?

[DocOccupant]

Not to waste time for the people who are looking to finish/do the content instead of failing for hours because of some lazy fool. If you are so eager to fail, then do it on your own or with friends who have similar mindset. Not everyone has time to do this. Some "study" at work or school so they will be able to do the stuff they want to accomplish within the limited time frame they might have.

 

Let's try this again.

 

Some folks can't learn stuff just by reading about it. They have to DO it. They are often referred to as Kinesthesic learners, and no amount of homework or having websites open so they can refer to them during a game will help.

 

How about all y'all who have limited time get together and form groups or guilds so you can avoid the PUGs, and then those who need to L2P can do so without wasting your precious time?

[branmakmuffin]

Stupidest thread I've seen in ages. But then, here I am replying to it.

 

[Alec_Fortescue]

Normal modes are there for practice. There is nothing more annoying from clueless first-timers on hard modes.

[RetardRaptor]

So, you buy a new console game, pick up the guide and read everything about it first? Why bother to play the game? o.O

 

"Oh hey! Look at that, the last boss turns out to be my friend who betrayed me! Surprise ruined!"

 

Funny how people like you complain about doing group content in a group game, and how do you even think those guides get made that you link people to? They get made by people going in communicating and figuring things out.

 

You think they just went in, ran it perfectly the first time?

 

i run ops every day on multiple toons and explain to people how to do the fight but thanks for pretending to know me dur. The people that do the guides get into a group of guild mates who are prepared to wipe to learn the content. That is a lot different then getting into a gf queue and causing everyone around you to wipe cause you refuse to read. if you wanna learn the hard way don't waste others time join a guild and get a group

[SawneyRath]

Back in the good old days of MMO'S players actually tried to enhance the community by teaching them raids,group content.. and the like. There was no oh look it up. It was taught and handed down.

 

Players built each other up. I've been playing mmo's since Eq1.. The attitude of look it up is one of the reasons people are sitting in ques so long to do things . If your to elitiest .. or whatever you wanna call your self to teach then your helping the community. Sure not helping the ques. Yes I realize some people are on limited time but hey id rather take time and teach someone then send them off to a web site where they may just say the hell with it. And then they just dont que up anymore.

 

I agree. MMOs are about the SOCIAL aspect of gaming. Why the hell would I go to a website and read something when there are knowledgable people IN THE GAME who could (If they weren't so full of themselves) pass the information on to me?

 

In SWG I made plenty of friends by asking "Noob" questions and they answering them. I play MMOs for the community aspect. Not to read up on the gameplay just to be "viable" in group content. A good community makes things that much better, and taking the time to help new people out only enhances the experience of playing SWTOR.

[DarkSaberMaster]

This entire different generation, they seem to forgot about the excitement of not knowing what comes next. Looking up the game and reading the strategies ruins the game for some people. With the internet and instant guides these days, some people use them before experiecing the gameplay first. Once you start to memorize the mechanics in a video game, then it will start to get easier and tedious.

 

In my opinion, this issues goes along with the fact that games are easier and more casual than in the 80's and early 90's. In most old school games, you are expected to die multiple times before you finish. These days some people get mad as soon if they die once.

 

This sums it up right here.

[Tsillah]

So, the OP is upset about how other people expect fellow gamers to behave and think. And as a solution he wants to tell other gamers how to behave and think. Right....

[LasherC]

Or maybe you should run with like minded people and stay out of the ques. THere are plenty of guilds that are dedicated to "read this then we run it"

Who said you're a majority ? Maybe you should stay of the queues. Or, the common sense thing to do, discuss it after the group is formed.

 

But reading your post, yeah, I can see what type of player you are. You're that type, even with an experienced team, with every member who's ran it over and over, and with one bad pull, you rage quit.

 

I do no such thing, not even remotely close. But please, go ahead and jump to conclusions.

 

People put in effort by showing up[...]

 

Showing up isn't effort, not in group finder where you don't have a schedule to keep, you just press the find group button whenever it strikes your fancy.

 

When I play a FP with someone who hasn't run one, I stop and say "Okay, this is what we do next" it's not that hard, really.

So do I, WHEN the player tells me that he doesn't know what to do. If they don't, we wipe because of him and he's still not willing to listen or put in any effort, you can bet your *** I'm not gonna be happy about it.

 

As for your repair bill, you're going to have one anyways. You telling me you freaked out about your repair bill as you leveled up?

 

First of all, I don't freak out. Second of all, if I have a repair bill because of something that is my fault, that's my problem. If I have a repair bill because of someone else, that's entirely different.

 

I Why the hell would I go to a website and read something when there are knowledgable people IN THE GAME who could (If they weren't so full of themselves) pass the information on to me?

 

So, basically, you're saying " Why do something myself, when I can have someone else do it for me ? " . Yeah, nice attitude ...

Edited April 20, 2013 by LasherC