Skill > All in 2.0

[Caeliux]

No the average joe should not be able to "just learn his rotiation and stomp people". He should have to learn how to have situational awereness, strategical thinking, know what ability to use in which situation, along strategical keybinds and being a teamplayer.

 

I agree with this statement, those things are skillful where gear or not won't matter.

[DoppaE]

People that actually KNEW how to pvp, knew that it was balanced. It took coordination and good communication, as well as a knowledge of how to play their classes, to beat good teams. Seriously, how much more balance can people ask for when each side has the EXACT same classes/abilities at their disposal? Anyone whining the game wasn't balanced probably should have went back to their previous games.

 

aside from the lack of real usefullness of most (not all) commandos and mercs this point hits it right on the head. people weren't getting stomped because of lack of gear (solely) but more a lack of skill and coordination.

 

yes bolster is going to make gear less of an issue. but i doubt most players who dont take the time to hone their skills are going to see a difference in the long run.

 

it's funny. I made a couple new 50's after all the double xp. before 2.0 i went in the wz's with recruit gear. though i did not always top leaderboards i still outperformed the overwhelming majority Im sure there are many others who will agree. It has not been and is not all about the gear. and when they all start hitting 55 and everyone doesn't have bolster to hide behind will begin to show whay they are really about.

[Caeliux]

yes bolster is going to make gear less of an issue. but i doubt most players who dont take the time to hone their skills are going to see a difference in the long run.

 

Well there is no excuse now, endgame will be about progression and gear somewhat, but never like it was with Champion/Battlemaster or Recruit/EWH.

 

Players from 10-55 don't have to worry about gear, twinks, or any type of gear problem, skill and coordination with teammates will trump.

[Twin]

I agree with this statement, those things are skillful where gear or not won't matter.

 

Yes, i agree about that and i think bolster (or simular) is indeed a good thing - but not in its current form. Warzones right now is not about those things i listed. TTK is so low that people hardly have a chance to even test their own skills.

 

If we would leave it like this, noone would ever become better at anything...well yeah maybe they slowly would, but marginally, because the DPS and TTK doesn't leave any room for improvising, strategical thinking and variables...TTK was quite enough as it was pre 2.0.

[Delphis]

say it one mo again!

 

ps. the only thing about bolster that bothers me is that all the pvp gear i've grinded is now useless. all the credits i've spent etc.They could have made the bolster make the lower gear commensurate not the only way to go.

 

Coming in a patch near you... don't delete your pvp gear...

[Caeliux]

TTK is so low that people hardly have a chance to even test their own skills.

 

Some teams get burned down really fast, where others have healers and work together properly.

 

I do somewhat think the damage is lets say little high, but I can deal with it.

 

The margin for era is little vs well oiled skilled players that play objectively, which is my whole point about Skill > All.

[PoliteAssasin]

How is TTK low? It seems the same to me, fighting geared, naked, and lowbie enemies. It's really starting to sound to me like people are whining because pvp is more equal now. No more gear advantages, and I say this as someone who's been mod ripped WH/EWH for a long time. People who had skill regardless of the gear will be fine. But those who used gear as a crutch, now see how it is when everyone's on equal footing. I find it amusing personally. Gotta love the reality check.

[Caeliux]

No more gear advantages, and I say this as someone who's been mod ripped WH/EWH for a long time. People who had skill regardless of the gear will be fine. But those who used gear as a crutch, now see how it is when everyone's on equal footing. I find it amusing personally. Gotta love the reality check.

 

I think as you do.

[Zoom_VI]

With 2.0 skill isn't greater random number generator is

Honestly some dps vs dps fights last as little as three gcds

Those hardcore no-lifers are dieing not because they don't have a gear crutch but because they lost the crit roll to you

Used to be there where things such as fake casting, kiting, LoSing

Now you just fire as you will die before you can execute anykind of strategic play. You die before you can reach LoS, you die before you can take advantage of a successful fake cast and you die before you can run far enough to even start to kite

 

Every time you kill someone you should thank the random number generator for blessing you.

 

Random # > skill

 

Also for the " geared people are actually bad but they just had better gear till now" augument, do you not realize how idiotic that notion is?

Thats like saying people who put more hours into something become provgressivly worse compared to people with little practice.

[PoliteAssasin]

So now that its based on skill, you blame your loss to RNG? How is RNG any different now than it was before? It isn't. You tailor your crit rating to your specific preference. I personally use 30-35% depending on my spec. Thats a choice you as a player have. To blame a loss on that is pretty cheap. People need to own up to their personal limitations for once, and stop blaming everything else under the sun.

[Caeliux]

People need to own up to their personal limitations for once, and stop blaming everything else under the sun.

 

Amen ^

 

+1

[Twin]

Some teams get burned down really fast, where others have healers and work together properly.

 

I do somewhat think the damage is lets say little high, but I can deal with it.

 

The margin for era is little vs well oiled skilled players that play objectively, which is my whole point about Skill > All.

 

The current TTK and DMG might be bearable when you're in a premade, or happen to have a decent team setup and ppl know how to play - but in random PUGs it's just pathetic. Healers die just as fast as anyone else. Warzones need to be enjoyable for everyone pre55 too - and if you truly are after skillfull pvp, then upping the TTK shouldn't be a problem at all.

 

How is TTK low? It seems the same to me, fighting geared, naked, and lowbie enemies. It's really starting to sound to me like people are whining because pvp is more equal now. No more gear advantages, and I say this as someone who's been mod ripped WH/EWH for a long time. People who had skill regardless of the gear will be fine. But those who used gear as a crutch, now see how it is when everyone's on equal footing. I find it amusing personally. Gotta love the reality check.

 

So im sayind its fine if bolster boosts ppl to the exact same level as anyone else, but the damgae everyone does is too high; -That means im whining because pvp is more equal?

 

If you haven't noticed huge increase in DMG and lowered TTK, then either you were squishy as an unboiled egg before 2.0 or you havent been focused by competent DPSers of the opposing team.

 

"I say this as someone who's been mod ripped WH/EWH for a long time" Oh really? And? Am i supposed to think you "know the truth" just because you learned how to switch a mod?

 

Im quite tired of posts saying "I find it amusing" or simular halfwitted remarks. Most people are complaining about 2 things:

 

1. Naked PvP

2. Too low TTK

 

Being able to pvp without gear entirely is just stupid and lazy on BW's behalf. They should have granted level 10s gear for all slots, instead of bolstering empty slots.

 

TTK was upped significally with 2.0 and most ppl agree on that. I counter your statement with; Only unskilled players supports the current TTK since it doesn't leave much room for actual skill. Sure, everyone is equal in the fact that everyone dies equally fast when DPS targets them and noone said otherwise wither - but this is NOT skill.

 

And if you claim TTK is the same as before 2.0, then please upload some vids with your ownage as say sorcerer....do you even play anything besides Mara/Jugg?

 

I have Assassin, Marauder, Sorcerer, Sniper and Juggernaut at level 50. And i have a level 47 Sage, a level 27 Pyrotech, a level 15 commando and a level 25 Operative. I have played them all each night in 2.0 and based on THAT i claim that TTK is too short.

 

It's not fun to die instantly within the timespan of 1 single stun, and it's honestly not fun to kill people in that manner either. Anyone who defends that, explain to me how that is skillfull.

[PoliteAssasin]

The current TTK and DMG might be bearable when you're in a premade, or happen to have a decent team setup and ppl know how to play - but in random PUGs it's just pathetic. Healers die just as fast as anyone else. Warzones need to be enjoyable for everyone pre55 too - and if you truly are after skillfull pvp, then upping the TTK shouldn't be a problem at all.

 

 

 

So im sayind its fine if bolster boosts ppl to the exact same level as anyone else, but the damgae everyone does is too high; -That means im whining because pvp is more equal?

 

If you haven't noticed huge increase in DMG and lowered TTK, then either you were squishy as an unboiled egg before 2.0 or you havent been focused by competent DPSers of the opposing team.

 

"I say this as someone who's been mod ripped WH/EWH for a long time" Oh really? And? Am i supposed to think you "know the truth" just because you learned how to switch a mod?

 

Im quite tired of posts saying "I find it amusing" or simular halfwitted remarks. Most people are complaining about 2 things:

 

1. Naked PvP

2. Too low TTK

 

Being able to pvp without gear entirely is just stupid and lazy on BW's behalf. They should have granted level 10s gear for all slots, instead of bolstering empty slots.

 

TTK was upped significally with 2.0 and most ppl agree on that. I counter your statement with; Only unskilled players supports the current TTK since it doesn't leave much room for actual skill. Sure, everyone is equal in the fact that everyone dies equally fast when DPS targets them and noone said otherwise wither - but this is NOT skill.

 

And if you claim TTK is the same as before 2.0, then please upload some vids with your ownage as say sorcerer....do you even play anything besides Mara/Jugg?

 

I have Assassin, Marauder, Sorcerer, Sniper and Juggernaut at level 50. And i have a level 47 Sage, a level 27 Pyrotech, a level 15 commando and a level 25 Operative. I have played them all each night in 2.0 and based on THAT i claim that TTK is too short.

 

It's not fun to die instantly within the timespan of 1 single stun, and it's honestly not fun to kill people in that manner either. Anyone who defends that, explain to me how that is skillfull.

 

Well I want to start off by saying that you need to calm down. No need to get upset over this.

 

1. TTK is the same for me pre 2.0 and post regardless of if I'm in a premade or not. I don't die any faster now than I did before 2.0.

 

2. Damage received a minor buff, but so did your hp. I jump from 18800 to around 22500 when bolstered in pvp.

 

3. On the contrary, me being used to and having adapted to focus fire and being attacked by equally geared opponents is what accounts for the lack of a difference. If anything it sounds to me like you were being focused by recruit or vanilla wh geared opponents.

 

4. "I say this as someone who's been mod ripped WH/EWH for a long time" Oh really? And? Am i supposed to think you "know the truth" just because you learned how to switch a mod?

 

That comment was made to illustrate that at least one player who has gone through the tedious grind to min max isn't affected by the effects of 2.0's bolster system. You apparently interpreted it differently. The average min maxed WH player is complaining because players who haven't grinded gear are now on equal footing. I just happen to have a differing opinion, largely because my gear was never a crutch like it was to many other players out there. If you're really as skilled as you make yourself out to be, fighting someone on equal grounds shouldn't be too difficult for you. This patch basically distinguishes between those who were reliant on gear and those who weren't.

 

Naked PVP doesn't give you godlike stats. Look at the PTS and then 2.0 and notice the differences between the bolster exploits. On live by stripping naked you are pretty much given similar stats to mod ripped WH/EWH gear. It isn't an advantage over pvp gear, it simply equalizes it. Sure its a cheap way to boost stats since you're going in naked or with empty shells, but it doesn't give that player an advantage over the WH/EWH geared player. It simply sets you on equal ground and brings skill into the equation.

 

You say "most people" yet I only see a vocal minority complaining about TTK. Most people who are already used to fighting equally geared opponents aren't seeing a difference from pre 2.0.

 

I fail to see how my choice of a class inhibits my ability to assess TTK. You are aware that sents/marauders are relatively squishy without our cooldowns? And that we don't always have them up right? The last person that should be whining about TTK should be a sorc. Now sure focus fire doesn't really affect me too much since i've learned how to work under that kind of pressure, but i'm pure dps. I can't even heal myself, I have to rely on timely execution of cooldowns, sorcs on the other hand had bubblestuns/heals and now have their channeled bubble/heals. If you're bothered by focus fire on a class that can tank for 10 seconds, can kite effectively, and can heal themselves whenever necessary, then perhaps you're not playing the class to its potential.

 

That you cite the amount of classes you've rolled as proof that TTK is short is amusing. I'm sorry that I have a life and other obligations which prevent me from having 11 alts. As for your last statement, that's pretty much being ganked alone by a group of people, not focus fired. If I'm solo queueing in a match and enter a brawl at mid, dps can focus me but they also have to worry about my teammates still attacking them, while I'm reacting as well. If I'm in a premade, they'll have to worry about my healer, as well as other dps still attacking them as well. If you solo a group of 4+ players without a premade or a team, that is not focus fire, that is destroying the only person within sight. And it is not within 1 stun, it involves chain CC. That is not new with 2.0.

[skotish]

If winning games and beating other guilds don't make you happy enough, then you are PVPing for the wrong reasons.

 

If people think they are a better player when they out gear 80% of the people they play then they are not seeing the big picture.

 

It's the sole reason people ask for balance, and the sole reason a gear gap makes things harder for people to PVP in.

 

Welcome to 2.0, where Bolster has provided a cushion for pre 55 players to learn their class without worrying about geting trumped by over geared players.

 

Once you get 55 sure there is a new grind and progression, its what endgame is suppose to be.

 

If you don't like endgame play then reroll, if you don't like to reroll and still are complaining then SWTOR is not the game for you.

I pvp for fun and competition not gear but the last few days playing this game haven't been any of those hope it changes after the bolster fix

[Aristore]

Haha yessss. Finally all the 'leet' players and their 'leet' guildies have to face up their own incompetence. it has been stated more than enough times that the bottom line = your comm farming has gotten you no where, the skills you could have been developing are now a foreign subject to you, and all you can do is cry BROKEN!! ahh it's such a satisfying day on the tor servers.

[Twin]

Well I want to start off by saying that you need to calm down. No need to get upset over this.

 

1. TTK is the same for me pre 2.0 and post regardless of if I'm in a premade or not. I don't die any faster now than I did before 2.0.

 

2. Damage received a minor buff, but so did your hp. I jump from 18800 to around 22500 when bolstered in pvp.

 

3. On the contrary, me being used to and having adapted to focus fire and being attacked by equally geared opponents is what accounts for the lack of a difference. If anything it sounds to me like you were being focused by recruit or vanilla wh geared opponents.

 

Well i can't say more then i've said regarding this, except if what you're saying is really true it's darn weird - because i notice the shortened TTK on -every- toon im on, and only 1 of my toons had WH gear..and i cant help being upset - this issue is gamebreaking for me...The one and only thing i do in this game, i no longer find entertaining. And its NOT because of ppl being on equal odds - it's plain and simply that i want longer fights.

 

4. "I say this as someone who's been mod ripped WH/EWH for a long time" Oh really? And? Am i supposed to think you "know the truth" just because you learned how to switch a mod?

 

That comment was made to illustrate that at least one player who has gone through the tedious grind to min max isn't affected by the effects of 2.0's bolster system. You apparently interpreted it differently. The average min maxed WH player is complaining because players who haven't grinded gear are now on equal footing. I just happen to have a differing opinion, largely because my gear was never a crutch like it was to many other players out there. If you're really as skilled as you make yourself out to be, fighting someone on equal grounds shouldn't be too difficult for you. This patch basically distinguishes between those who were reliant on gear and those who weren't.

 

Yeah, some ppl might be complaiing because they "lost" their gear - and to some extent i agree, but not because i "lost the edge", no rather because i think the gear i had should have me at the same spot as someone in pve gear. (Though i think they said this was part of the bug and will be fixed, so im fine with that)

 

Personally however, im certinatly not complaining because i dont have gear advantage - i just want the fights to last longer then they currently do and then im fine with ppl in "greens" having the same stats as me. But they need to implement more stuff we can get with comms though since you're pretty much just wasting them pre55.

 

Naked PVP doesn't give you godlike stats. Look at the PTS and then 2.0 and notice the differences between the bolster exploits. On live by stripping naked you are pretty much given similar stats to mod ripped WH/EWH gear. It isn't an advantage over pvp gear, it simply equalizes it. Sure its a cheap way to boost stats since you're going in naked or with empty shells, but it doesn't give that player an advantage over the WH/EWH geared player. It simply sets you on equal ground and brings skill into the equation.

 

I never said anything about naked bolster making anyone godlike, and either way anyone can undress and be equally naked - thats not it.

 

My problem is the pure and simple laziness to give ppl bolster AT ALL on empty slots, there simply is no reason to do that. Running around naked in any aspect of the game, pve or pvp, should not be encouraged. It makes no sense and takes away what little feeling of star wars there ever were in this game. Thats my issue with naked bolster, not the actual stat increase.

 

EDIT: Even granting players a complete set of gear at level 10 would be a better option, even if they had no stats at all just shells. But bolstering empty slots is nothing but stupid.

 

You say "most people" yet I only see a vocal minority complaining about TTK. Most people who are already used to fighting equally geared opponents aren't seeing a difference from pre 2.0.

 

Im not talking about forums, im talking about the general feeling i get when i see ppl in warzones. Every single time someone curses at the current TTK in my warzone groups the last days, the majority of the group have agreed. Very simular to CC, only a vocal minority actually writes posts about CC being too much, or resolve being too little on the forums - but you see ppl curse at the CC all around, all the time.

 

I fail to see how my choice of a class inhibits my ability to assess TTK. You are aware that sents/marauders are relatively squishy without our cooldowns? And that we don't always have them up right? The last person that should be whining about TTK should be a sorc. Now sure focus fire doesn't really affect me too much since i've learned how to work under that kind of pressure, but i'm pure dps. I can't even heal myself, I have to rely on timely execution of cooldowns, sorcs on the other hand had bubblestuns/heals and now have their channeled bubble/heals. If you're bothered by focus fire on a class that can tank for 10 seconds, can kite effectively, and can heal themselves whenever necessary, then perhaps you're not playing the class to its potential.

 

As Marauder you have several ways to dodge being focus fired, cloak, undying rage, intimidating roar among other stuff. Ofc you can also either get biochem or wz heals for self heals, just like everyone else.

 

Before 2.0 when stunned and focused, i could often survive long enough for the stun to wear off and kick in acute self heals, fore run or simular - and maybe manage to heal up a bit, or at least cast a few heals on others before finally dying. Now, when stunned and focused it's death pure and simple - the stun wont wear off until im dead, bubble or not.

 

That 10sec "tank" ability is at level 51 - i dont have it yet since i didnt preorder in time. You cant count that since WZ's need to be enjoyable at all levels, not just at 55 or in ranked. Im just saying, before you claim that TTK is fine - you might wanna back that up by playing mutliple classes to see if its actually correct for everyone. Otherwise perhaps you should say "TTK is fine, for marauders".

 

That you cite the amount of classes you've rolled as proof that TTK is short is amusing. I'm sorry that I have a life and other obligations which prevent me from having 11 alts.

 

I only play nights, when my family is asleep and i only do warzones. This has been the case since early access before release of the game - and that is why and how i have as many alts as i do. Only one of them have full WH and NONE of them have full EWH.

 

You would be able to have that too, if you wanted and have played since release -It's not like it takes that long to level a toon. Im an adult with children, house, job and plenty of RL obligations, and i managed to get my toons to their respective levels without neglecting anything more important IRL....so what is it that's so amusing? I listed my toons to show you that i have experience warzones on allmost all classes at various levels and levels of gear since 2.0 went live, do you mean to tell me that's not relevant?

 

As for your last statement, that's pretty much being ganked alone by a group of people, not focus fired. If I'm solo queueing in a match and enter a brawl at mid, dps can focus me but they also have to worry about my teammates still attacking them, while I'm reacting as well. If I'm in a premade, they'll have to worry about my healer, as well as other dps still attacking them as well. If you solo a group of 4+ players without a premade or a team, that is not focus fire, that is destroying the only person within sight. And it is not within 1 stun, it involves chain CC. That is not new with 2.0.

 

CC or Chain CC - whats new with 2.0 is that you hardly ever survive long enough to use defensives or heals, before 2.0 i often could survive til it wore off, even though with very little health left, and then make the choice if i would try to escape and try to heal myself and start over, heal others and die, or make that important interrupt on a "node being capped".

Edited April 13, 2013 by Twin

[Twin]

Haha yessss. Finally all the 'leet' players and their 'leet' guildies have to face up their own incompetence. it has been stated more than enough times that the bottom line = your comm farming has gotten you no where, the skills you could have been developing are now a foreign subject to you, and all you can do is cry BROKEN!! ahh it's such a satisfying day on the tor servers.

 

You do know that bolster is officially broken though, right? And you also understand that wanting longer TTK does not equal wanting gear advantage?

 

Exactly what kind of complaint is it that you reffer to? What is it that people claim is broken, that you claim is not?

[morinesse]

seems underworld pve hilt > conq pvp hilt

 

*****...

[Zoom_VI]

So now that its based on skill, you blame your loss to RNG? How is RNG any different now than it was before? It isn't. You tailor your crit rating to your specific preference. I personally use 30-35% depending on my spec. Thats a choice you as a player have. To blame a loss on that is pretty cheap. People need to own up to their personal limitations for once, and stop blaming everything else under the sun.

 

You talor your crit to whatever you want but RNG decides wether you get that crit

 

On my commando I can do grav>demo and deal 14k total if I get a demo crit if not I do barely 8k total

Now if my target is anything other than targeting me with interrupt in hand his life will depend solely on wether that demo crits or not.

 

 

Also have fun trying to get 30-35 crit at lvl 55

[Ifolad]

Congratulations on another useless thread. Thank you for cluttering up the PvP forums with something you could have just as easily posted in an existing topic. We are currently experiencing some 'care' downtime, and are unable to prove an estimate of when 'care' will be back up again.

 

All updates will be posted in this thread.

 

May the Force be with you!

 

Another fine lady of the SIth, come play republic with us

[Caeliux]

haha yessss. Finally all the 'leet' players and their 'leet' guildies have to face up their own incompetence. It has been stated more than enough times that the bottom line = your comm farming has gotten you no where, the skills you could have been developing are now a foreign subject to you, and all you can do is cry broken!! Ahh it's such a satisfying day on the tor servers.

 

^

 

[Zoom_VI]

Haha yessss. Finally all the 'leet' players and their 'leet' guildies have to face up their own incompetence. it has been stated more than enough times that the bottom line = your comm farming has gotten you no where, the skills you could have been developing are now a foreign subject to you, and all you can do is cry BROKEN!! ahh it's such a satisfying day on the tor servers.

 

So your saying that people that do a lot of wz for gear are not gaining any skill, while casuals with no gear interest are somehow gaining skill from those same exact wzs?

That's like saying professional NBA players gain nothing from training

And on top of that your saying that a local high school team is actually better skilled and could beat a NBA team if they only had the same equipment.

 

I see a a rather large logic gap, don't you?

 

But your right in saying wzs are all equal now - RNG and low TTK have seen to that

[Zunayson]

So your saying that people that do a lot of wz for gear are not gaining any skill, while casuals with no gear interest are somehow gaining skill from those same exact wzs?

That's like saying professional NBA players gain nothing from training

And on top of that your saying that a local high school team is actually better skilled and could beat a NBA team if they only had the same equipment.

 

I see a a rather large logic gap, don't you?

 

But your right in saying wzs are all equal now - RNG and low TTK have seen to that

 

I think he's assuming the premise that the skillcap of TOR is very low. Not much difference between many of the top pvp players on my server and myself except for class, gear, friends, and vent. fast reflexes dont allow you to hit buttons faster with an lolgcd.

 

With that being said, the large difference between an NBA player and a highschool player is equipment, which, once taken out of the equation, reveals a slightly more even playing field.

[Caeliux]

With that being said, the large difference between an NBA player and a highschool player is equipment, which, once taken out of the equation, reveals a slightly more even playing field.

 

I like this analogy. ^

 

+1

 

[SystemProcess]

Another fine lady of the SIth, come play republic with us

 

I cannot do it, my friend. I simply cannot. D: