It's great to PVE with no Damage Meters

[Fiachsidhe]

Ahh you have to love this attitude!

 

It's not, "Oh ok I need to be doing more dps let me figure out how I can fix that!"

 

It's "Hahaha i'm going to waste even more of your time because I'm a child!"

 

As much as I hate people shoving damage meters in others' faces. I agree, that was straight up griefing, and even worse than the damage report. I remember doing something like this to a raid group (not a damage issue, but I was clearly under geared and asked to leave before we started), back when I first started WoW, looking back, I am ashamed. It was pathetic and petty.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Fiachsidhe

[Morcova]

Ours. In 12 years we have NEVER kicked someone for lack of skill.

 

Link in sig.

 

Z

 

Wow man one guild for 12 years? I have family I don't want to be around for that long. That's amazing.

[Aiinna]

Just one anecdote:

 

I did the "save some slaves" mission in Tattooine twice as a tank.

 

1st time it was a blast, everything was instantly CC'd, stuff died fast, my health never dipped below 80% (Trooper healing) in and out in around 20 minutes.

 

2nd time was a HUGE pain, I died a few times (healer (sage) oom) my health at the end of fights was generally around 20% I'm glad I had my reusable med pack along.

 

Why were we having such a hard time? We had CC on everything like the first group, we just took ages killing stuff. Was that my fault? No I'd actually leveled twice in between so I was tanking better AND doing more damage. The healer? He was using the correct rotations to keep his mana going as long as possible.

 

That leaves 2 slacking DPS'ers, a sentinel and a smuggler, one running 12 focus a lot of the time, the other at 100% energy all the time. Yeah if I had DPS meters I could show them that I'm outputting more dmg on each target than they are. I wish I could just afk and spam basic attacks all day as a tank.

 

oh right I left there with a 10k repair bill + 1 hour later.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Aiinna

[Morcova]

Just one anecdote:

 

I did the "save some slaves" mission in Tattooine twice as a tank.

 

1st time it was a blast, everything was instantly CC'd, stuff died fast, my health never dipped below 80% (Trooper healing) in and out in around 20 minutes.

 

Right now I"m running into a problem where I'm (assassin dps) I mark a mob say I'll cc it.. then either the tank goes running in and I can't cc it or i cc it and after a few seconds someone shoots it.

 

ugh.

[Ahrue]

I love having no meters so now I can play the way i want to play and just use the spells I want too even if they are not the ones I should be using. Now no one can complain about how I play.

 

Why we need one, combatlog+recount badly

 

Allows bad players to continue to be bad and we can't do anything about it.

[Slant_DK]

You make a fair point. I guess my point is that I wouldnt like to give idiots more tools to advertise, and promote their idiocity. I think that is what ths comes down to. The tendency to abuse a potentialy good thing.

 

I kind of wish there was a way to get the picture on who was underperforming, but not put an absolute number and rank on it. That way you cold pinpoint potential problem players, but downplay the opportunity for players to gloat, etc. Something along the lines of "% of influence" in a fight. I dont know exactly it could be done, I dont have the eanswer, but I wish a compromise could be struck.

 

That is why I dont really have a problem with threat meters, etc. I dont think we need them, but there is much less downside to having them.

 

I'll jump to this, since you seem to be one of the few people arguing your side without too many emotions attached.

 

I totally agree with your points about dmg meters creating a volatile competition among certain types of gamers. That leads to a lot of unnecessary and frustrating crap. Also, some people have made the suggestion to block the post option in wow style dmg meters.

 

While I don't believe developers pay too much attentions to threads like these, I'll assume someone reads it just for the heck of it.

 

Dmg meters in their most useful state are really only of interest to raid leaders. And even then, they are not near useful enough except for very quick checks on dps on a certain type of mobs midraid or even midcombat. So let's ditch that idea. All you really need is a working combat log, a logger and a parsing website/tool. Flaming douchebags are usually too lazy to parse their log, look up the website and THEN go and call names on someone.

 

Raid leaders, however, have done exactly that to find out specific quirks about wipes or underperforming raiders. And they usually go to those people and - again, hopefully - politely let them know that they suck and need to change something. In an ideal world, they will even nudge them in the right direction.

 

I agree that in a time of no enrage timers, you don't need to know who performed under par as long as everyone stays in shape and doesn't stress the healers out too much. Mark my words, though, enrage timers will come. They have to. Look at the game as it is now, there is no limit to healer/dps ressources. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few hard encounters done with a surplus of healers. It doesn't even need to be a big enrage timer wow style, just have many little soft enrages, like waves of mobs. Once you wipe to them 100s of times, you will want to find out what or who is going wrong. Combat log helps with that. Let's hope Bioware reads this discussion.

 

PS: Since everyone seems to share anecdotes on why he thinks dmg meters sucks/rocks: Here's mine... Trial Healer is assigned to Tank who is tanking two of the three Boss companions. Is stressed but heals just fine. Next week, established veteran healer beach (I might have misspelled that...) fails miserably half a dozen times and whines about it being impossible. Until we check the meters and see that she was happily healing the entire f-ing raid instead of her assigned tank. Now, if you watch her cast animation, she is super busy. How will you find out that it was her fault if you don't have any combat information whatsoever other than cast animation and the health bar of your tank (who may be rescued by smart healers a few times that want to make sure he stays alive...). Answer me that riddle, please?

[Yfelsung]

The funny part:

 

If we applied "I don't want it, so you can't have it" to a lot of other things, people against DPS meters would eventually stand on the same side as the people who want DPS meters.

 

"I don't want it, so you can't have it" is never a valid argument.

[Wrexad]

Oh well, Least you will enjoy the game until the patch hits with the combat log in it, As BW have already said combat log will come in along with a customizable ui, Least then the UI will be half decent with a few add-ons as right now its dire.

 

The simple fact is though the people moaning about combat log coming into the game support having advance class change being bought in (which is a bad idea) along with give me dual spec's i need dual specs! As without an auto attack in this game people that used to do 2k DPS in VoA as they used to afk will now be doing .50dps. So they like it.... at the moment

 

I dont see a reason to hate a dps chart, if you stick to getting good at one tree and come top or just ignore the ****** that links it every 3 seconds. I understand some people use it to brag but most use it to get better.

 

I also dont mind having a dual spec in the game myself, i just hate when people are half decent in both trees instead of being good in one as most people with an off tank tree will mostly be playing that tree to get a 4 man group but they love to dps in raids. things like that, But in most cases a PVE and PVP spec its great for that.

[Wrexad]

Nope.

 

It has everything to do with guild control freaks kicking people for not being up to snuff instead of teaching them. Name one guild that actually taught people instead of just g-kicking them and removing them from the raid.

 

What's that? No response? It's ok.

 

Get Geared Or Wipe Tryin.. Stormrage EU

 

We took in a paladin in WoW for illidan as our main paladin healer had to leave as he was a pro in some sport.. so he had to train a lot, We took in this paladin on illidan he did not even have full T4 few bits of SSC gear.

 

All he used to do was flash flash flash me and didnt understand anything. My brother was the main healer / guild leader and we helped him with everything we didnt just gkick after 3 pulls and say "you are the worse player every look at recount" So i think you are just saying that off of personal experiences. Not all top guilds are big headed fool you know.

 

But with some people they just dont learn dying to the same thing 20 times and as a result performing bad because they're no use dead. These are the people that dont fit in.

 

If you want to ask the guy im talking about find lightfix on chunndar im sure hes there as he is still with us!

Edited December 24, 2011 by Wrexad

[Xaeo]

 

I dont see a reason to hate a dps chart, if you stick to getting good at one tree and come top or just ignore the ****** that links it every 3 seconds. I understand some people use it to brag but most use it to get better.

 

^ This.

 

You can ignore people who link meters.

 

You can choose to not place yourself in a position in which meters will be relevant in the first place i.e. operations, HM flashpoints.

 

If you still want to do this content in a less competitive setting, find a guild/group that echoes your mentality and avoids using damage meters at all.

 

The only motivation behind linking meters is not so that good players can show up lesser ones, but rather to demonstrate who is not pulling their weight in a TEAM GAME. Having a tool to measure performance so that improvement can occur is not an alienating feature of an MMO.... It gives people who don't want to beat their heads against a wall a chance to remove people who consistently pose a detriment to their group's success, while simultaneously giving these people a chance to improve their output.

 

It's not a personal attack to be removed from a group for ridiculously subpar performance. We cut football players for dropping balls, baseball players for striking out, so why not smugglers for arbitrarily breaking CC? It's not about players being elitist, though some certainly will be (ignore list!!), it's about helping the group to objectively discover its weaknesses so that it can improve.

 

TL;DR Meters only alienate if you let them. The function of helping people improve outweighs the potential hurt feelings over being kicked from groups for not knowing your class.

[Vayshen]

Get Geared Or Wipe Tryin.. Stormrage EU

 

We took in a paladin in WoW for illidan as our main paladin healer had to leave as he was a pro in some sport.. so he had to train a lot, We took in this paladin on illidan he did not even have full T4 few bits of SSC gear.

 

All he used to do was flash flash flash me and didnt understand anything. My brother was the main healer / guild leader and we helped him with everything we didnt just gkick after 3 pulls and say "you are the worse player every look at recount" So i think you are just saying that off of personal experiences. Not all top guilds are big headed fool you know.

 

But with some people they just dont learn dying to the same thing 20 times and as a result performing bad because they're no use dead. These are the people that dont fit in.

 

If you want to ask the guy im talking about find lightfix on chunndar im sure he is still with us!

 

We did that too in wotlk, Adrenaline exact same server on Europe /hi5 =)

 

The only reason I use meters in wow is to see how I'm doing. 2nd priority is to see how I'm doing vs the rest. Pre Dragon Soul I was almost always #1 on my guild's meters and not once have I slammed it in their face or been rude about it, or to anyone outside the guild. It just confirms that I'm doing something right or wrong, and that's how it should be used.

 

I just really hope they make it themselves. I don't want Bioware making Swtor an open playground for addon making.

[bchorn]

Is it me or does it seem like the only people who are complaining about damage meters are the people who do bad dps? I typically do very well on damage meters and therefore I haven't personally experienced any of the compliants made by the anti-damage meters crowd.

[Wrexad]

Is it me or does it seem like the only people who are complaining about damage meters are the people who do bad dps? I typically do very well on damage meters and therefore I haven't personally experienced any of the compliants made by the anti-damage meters crowd.

 

If you ask me its people that pug and get removed after the RL had to point the finger as to why the raid wiped. PUGs in wow were all awful unless you got in with like a half guild run.

[DonnieT]

Wait till you get to the heroics and you can't beat the enrage timer and it becomes a witch hunt to figure out who is the bad dps.

[Skeelol]

Wait till you get to the heroics and you can't beat the enrage timer and it becomes a witch hunt to figure out who is the bad dps.

 

Then the same people who currently pretend to not need DPS meters because they're so amazing will come to the forums and cry "nerf this, nerf that"

[darthjerro]

I bet my vette does more damage with her twin orange blasters then most pug players.

 

I really wish we had a damage metre so i could prove it...

I cant wait till one comes out, and i CAN prove it, then tell puggers....sorry mate, my companion does more damage then you, and she doesnt break cc, aggro mobs or attack before i do, so if you dont pick up your game,im going to have to swap you out for her....

 

HAHA...

 

Its going to happen, you wait and see.....

[Faiteaccompli]

Don't do PUG"s if you expect the groups you get to be perfect, PUG"s are to be expected to be frustrating at times as you are playing with totally random people.

 

I played in one the other day where the moron Sith Inquis was rolling on EVERYTHING (need) whether he needed it or not.....jerk. But I understood its the nature of the PUG thing and just kept my mouth shut and I will never group with that idiot again.

 

But don't expect PUG people to be good at the game lol, that is just silly, they sometimes are but many times you get baddies (And I can be a baddy too for instance when I don't know how to play hutt ball and go in there, whew, I AM BAD!)

[PaperClip]

I am against damage meters being included in the game. I don't like how the meters are used to belittle another person. As I read through many of these posts I have counted the words "Baddie" "Fail" over 200 times(they are referring to individuals).

 

It is horrible to think that a game (meant for fun) can cause individuals to treat or think of others in such a manner. It would be a shame to add something to the game that would destory the ideals of Star Wars.

[darthjerro]

I am against damage meters being included in the game. I don't like how the meters are used to belittle another person. As I read through many of these posts I have counted the words "Baddie" "Fail" over 200 times(they are referring to individuals).

 

It is horrible to think that a game (meant for fun) can cause individuals to treat or think of others in such a manner. It would be a shame to add something to the game that would destory the ideals of Star Wars.

 

Everything comes down to time.

If your doing a FP and its taking forever, you have to find out why. I dont want to be doing something for 2 hours when it should take 30 minutes tops, do you? I got other things i need to be doing.

 

One of the only proven ways to find problems is with a " performance " metre. It judges damage and a whole stack of other usefull stuff like interupts, dispells , heals etc....

 

So if someone ( ie a baddie ) is holding you back, you need to man up and tell them, sorry, you need to go practice, this is taking to long, we need to replace you....easy as that.

And for that, to find the problem, you need some visual data.....

[Belkiratwo]

Nope.

 

It has everything to do with guild control freaks kicking people for not being up to snuff instead of teaching them. Name one guild that actually taught people instead of just g-kicking them and removing them from the raid.

 

What's that? No response? It's ok.

 

Stop joining ****** guilds.

[Morcova]

We did that too in wotlk, Adrenaline exact same server on Europe /hi5 =)

 

If it wasn't for players like Wrexad and Vayshen I'd never have been a raider.

 

It took someone who saw what I could do in 5 mans to convince me to raid. Was I the bestest of the best tanks? Nope. But I was open to criticism and very willing to learn. And I took the lessons on how to treat undergeared/skilled players to heart and it became part of my ethos in gaming.

 

Here's the thing, I know some of the people that the anti-meter people are talking about. I've played with them before. Here is the little secret they don't appear to be understanding: Those people are generally unlikable even when there's no dps meters around. Dps meters don't make people rude players any more than a speedometer makes someone a bad driver. It's all a tool and depends upon the individuals use.

[Kabloosh]

Don't do PUG"s if you expect the groups you get to be perfect, PUG"s are to be expected to be frustrating at times as you are playing with totally random people.

 

I played in one the other day where the moron Sith Inquis was rolling on EVERYTHING (need) whether he needed it or not.....jerk. But I understood its the nature of the PUG thing and just kept my mouth shut and I will never group with that idiot again.

 

But don't expect PUG people to be good at the game lol, that is just silly, they sometimes are but many times you get baddies (And I can be a baddy too for instance when I don't know how to play hutt ball and go in there, whew, I AM BAD!)

 

I disagree. First time I would tell that player stop stealing everything. Second time I would of removed him or left myself.

[Morcova]

So if someone ( ie a baddie ) is holding you back, you need to man up and tell them, sorry, you need to go practice, this is taking to long, we need to replace you....easy as that.

And for that, to find the problem, you need some visual data.....

 

Here's what I don't get about the "LOL It's just a game!!!!!!" attitude... it's people who are more than happy to waste other players time because they don't care to learn how to play their class or learn basic game mechanics.

 

After I stopped tanking I became a ranged caster, I didn't enter a raid until I knew my rotation by heart (bioware we need test dummies kplsthxu) and was nicely geared with the gear I could access outside of raids.

 

It's not like there isn't a wealth of knowledge about how to play/gear your class. And yes I know the game is new but check your class forums! They are a great utility! Read the stickies!!

 

Learn! Practice!

[Campions-Revenge]

the thing most of you dont realize is this has nothing to do with wow and something that most of you have never encountered.

 

most of you never played bioware's Warhammer online

 

 

we have no combat logs or 3rd party addons because of the massive exploits that occured in that game. and because of an addon named nerfedbuttons

 

 

they ruined that game and bioware isnt gonna let that happen in this game

 

 

if you have a combat log people can use nerfed buttons and just hit 2 or 3 buttons for all their attacks and it will decide the best attack needed so you dont have to think or use skill. they dont want that in this game

 

 

and not to mention the addon war buddy that was pure sploitz.

 

so yeah thank the ppl that made all of that possible

[Morcova]

the thing most of you dont realize is this has nothing to do with wow and something that most of you have never encountered.

 

most of you never played bioware's Warhammer online

And neither have you. Warhammer online wasn't made by bioware it was made by Mythic.

 

we have no combat logs or 3rd party addons because of the massive exploits that occured in that game. and because of an addon named nerfedbuttons

 

if you have a combat log people can use nerfed buttons and just hit 2 or 3 buttons for all their attacks and it will decide the best attack needed so you dont have to think or use skill. they dont want that in this game

Again that's Mythics fault for allowing that kind of power in their API. Do you know what other gaming companies do when they find out an addon is doing something they don't want it to do? They update the API and remove that capability. Edited December 24, 2011 by Morcova