lol bolster

[SomeJagoff]

Yeah, we don't want those scrubs in our glorious PVP! We only need our own group of people who DO know what to do.

/sarcasm

 

The amount of entitlement because you do know how it works in this thread is mind boggling to me. Let me put it this way:

Right now, that scrub only has their lack of experience causing them to not be effective. Not their lack of gear, or their bad decision in selling something because they needed the credits to *gasp* buy their level 50/55 skills. The issue with Recruit gear is very clear in that it is a great solution, to a certain group of people.

 

Also the point of: "yeah but just grind a week or two and you have full partisan" just proves how little people understand how new people come to enjoy an activity (hint, it isn't by getting their ***** handed to them for 2 weeks before they can even become marginally useful).

 

The system is designed to cater to the new, without damaging the experienced or removing their incentives entirely. Right now, the system works perfect for the new, but still has issues for the second group. Those issues need to be resolved. Going back to Recruit only solves it for the experienced, not the new.

 

Or, to put it this way: I am 100% happy that since 2.0 I have not once had to inspect someone's gear and then whisper them in a friendly manner about the fact that they did not have Recruit gear and were therefore not having the best possible PVP experience. The reactions always go from honest thank you's to getting called any curse name under the sun. Why should I have to burden myself with that?

 

So do you spend all your free time in this thread defending bolster?

 

If you want to talk about a sense of entitlement, look no further than bolster. It's Expecting to be able to jump into a part of the game and dominate, despite having put in NO time or effort to do so.

 

Heroic space missions are too hard because I don't have ship parts,

-I don't want to grind the old space missions to get the new parts

-I don't want to spend cartel coins to get the new parts

-I don't want to buy them off the gtn

 

GIVE ME SPACE BOLSTER SO I CAN DOMINATE THOSE HEROICS!!!

 

Not legit reasoning to Bioware.

 

Operations are too hard because I don't have gear,

-I don't want to craft gear

-I dont' want to do dailies to get the gear

-I don't want to run 55 HM fps to get the gear

-I dont' want to buy gear off the gtn

 

GIVE ME OPERATIONS BOLSTER SO I CAN DOMINATE THOSE BOSSES!!

 

Not legit reasoning to Bioware.

 

PVP is too hard because I don't have gear,

-I don't want to buy recruit gear and get owned to get the gear.

-I don't want to use the free recruit gear and get owned to get the gear.

-I don't want to wear pve gear and get owned to get the gear.

 

GIVE ME PVP BOLSTER SO I CAN DOMINATE THOSE NOOBS!!!!!

 

Legit reasoning to Bioware.

 

=/

 

So here's the end result:

 

-The impatient people, who want to devote NO time to pvp at all, do a few matches, realize that they still don't like pvp, stop pvping.

 

-The patient people, who devote ALL their time to pvp, do a few matches, realize that there's no longer any point to pvp minus gear progression, in addition to exploiting, stop pvping and unsub.

 

Really great decision Bioware with this pvp bolster. How long til we get Operations Bolster?

 

Seriously, Eric Musco answer us that, How Long Til We Get Operations Bolster?

 

[TUXs]

If you punish players for benefiting from one unintended bug, you then must punish all those that benefited from ALL the bugs, in addition to the augment slot bug, such as:

 

**Those that fought "naked" to benefit from the "Naked Bolster" bug:

 

**Those that benefited from the Relic slots bug:

 

**Those that benefited from empty modification slots bug:

 

**Those that are currently benefiting from wearing Arkanian & Underworld (PvE) gear bug in WZs:

 

Oh, but there are more! Those specifically named above and publicly acknowledged by the devs are only addressing the most "famous/infamous" as reported by the community. There are others that the devs are aware of on their end that they are ALSO working to fix w/o drawing any more attention to them:

 

I'm actually not surprised by the amount of bugs and problems that the devs have and are still encountering with such an over-ambitious, over-complicated system to address the following:

Dude, that was an AMAZING summary of 2.0's massive impact (negatively) on PvP so far. I've bookmarked it for others to read. Great post, ALL factual, and fantastic supporting links!!!

[SomeJagoff]

Because every reasonable person can see why it can't be removed now.

 

There's no going back, because Bioware's changed things, forever?

[Covaltage]

My reading comprehension is very poor.

 

I'm not saying bads don't have a place in PvP (I'm not exactly a pro player here), but if I'm expected to learn a fight to do PvE content I don't see why everyone shouldn't be expected to learn a little about PvP to play PvP. There is a group of players (the guys you are talking about who vendored their recruit gear to pay for level 50 skills) who don't care about PvP and refuse to learn how to play it. Why should the PvP system be centered around these players as opposed to the PvPers who queue several times a day?

[Jadescythe]

So do you spend all your free time in this thread defending bolster?

 

If you want to talk about a sense of entitlement, look no further than bolster. It's Expecting to be able to jump into a part of the game and dominate, despite having put in NO time or effort to do so.

 

 

Not legit reasoning to Bioware.

 

 

Not legit reasoning to Bioware.

 

 

Legit reasoning to Bioware.

 

=/

 

So here's the end result:

 

-The impatient people, who want to devote NO time to pvp at all, do a few matches, realize that they still don't like pvp, stop pvping.

 

-The patient people, who devote ALL their time to pvp, do a few matches, realize that there's no longer any point to pvp minus gear progression, in addition to exploiting, stop pvping and unsub.

 

Really great decision Bioware with this pvp bolster. How long til we get Operations Bolster?

 

Seriously, Eric Musco answer us that, How Long Til We Get Operations Bolster?

 

 

I'm sure you may be a very intelligent individual, but you certainly didn't prove it in this post. The idea of PvP being difficult is because you are playing against other individuals who may or may not perform better than you. I like the idea of a small gear advantage for those who put in the time, but the idea of comparing a warzone to an operation is ludicrous. There is no warzone for people with lower gear in which to get better gear unlike being able to run story mode to prepare for hard mode and so on.

 

In that way, Operations have always had bolster. Feel free to jump in TFB or S&V story mode in your PvP gear and you'll be fine. Then you can get the higher tier and complete harder content. The same line of thinking can be applied to any PvE encounter because the AI can be tuned appropriately. But warzones will never have a set difficulty or cap on stats and thus, you can't make players unable to bridge the gap simply because of gear.

 

Is bolster working? Hell no, but it certainly could work in the future. I think they are working too hard to make an algorithm that works, when setting base stats for every piece without expertise is far simpler. There are those who want even stats for everyone in PvP which is somewhat bland and takes away options for customizing, but to say bolster (the way it's intended to work) will make anyone on par statwise with those in full PvP gear is ignorant at best. It is simply a way to make the experience enjoyable for all parties while you start your PvP journey at 55 and to help ensure that all of the "carebears" coming over from PvE aren't totally worthless teammates for you.

 

P.S. If gear progression is all that is keeping you going in PvP, you're doing it wrong.

[TonyDragonflame]

I'm quite laugh and wonder how many baddies appears on forum which crying and whinning about bolster, cuz they are suddenly discover for themselves what all their "pvp skill" was only in their pvp gear advantage and without their gear advantage over newbies in recruit/pve with 0 expertise they are just baddies with zero pvp skill.

 

Keep crying, baddies!

Good players adapt with any system and always will kick your butts, cuz for any good player always skill > gear

[SomeJagoff]

And on that occasion, please ban all accounts of frequent abusers, and report their credit cards stolen.

 

What, one can dream!

 

I would love bioware to do something like that, so that all the customers could get a class action lawsuit going and then own EA. THEN there would be a chance for actual balance/no more BS bolster.

 

One can dream.

[SomeJagoff]

There is no warzone for people with lower gear in which to get better gear unlike being able to run story mode to prepare for hard mode and so on.

 

Hence what recruit gear was for, as well as maxing out comms before 50/55.

[Jadescythe]

Hence what recruit gear was for, as well as maxing out comms before 50/55.

 

So your anti-bolster post was simply because it's not working and not anything that you listed? Because the idea of bolster is to do the same thing as recruit gear without having to actually put anything on. As for maxing comms, you realize that you basically have to PvP for 10-12 levels to max out comms after 40? Not everyone wants to level that way just to be relevant when they finally hit 55.

 

Contrary to what your beliefs seem to be, it is possible to have casual players in PvP who don't want to be decimated the second they step foot in a 55 warzone. A couple of stat point difference on each piece per PvP gear tier is enough, the min/maxing is what should really be determining the gear advantage.

[TUXs]

stop defending cheaters. good lord. people who abuse the augment bug are actively doing something to exploit the bug. its not like they just show up in a WZ and get boosted stats without doing anything. most people don't exploit the bug and play fair. but the group of people that do exploit it are bad for this game or any other MMO because they are always cheating is some form or another. BW should perma ban all of them. at the very least they should have some action taken against them. otherwise BW is telling everyone that TOS means nothing and if you can find a way to cheat them go ahead and do it.

 

People who PvP'd naked were also "actively" doing something to "exploit". I'll be honest - I still don't understand what the best "mix" of gear is - I swap things out every WZ I enter - I even went out and bought a full set of green 30'ish armor to see where my stats were best and I tried it on vs. my normal "PvP" gear inside a wz...are you of the opinion that I too am a cheater since I went about mixing gear to achieve the best possible stats in the wz? I haven't done the augment exploit - once I began getting some Conq gear I just gave up testing (I still swap armor like a fiend), but I did actively remove relics for a while...was that wrong of me?

 

I agree with you, I DESPISE cheating!!! But this is a bit more complex than that imo...it's doing whatever they need to do to maximize #'s. Min/Maxing is a freaking game within the game in MMOs, that's why I feel like this is a very grey area...are those type of players also cheating because they're doing whatever they need to do to gain the best stats possible?

 

The bottom line to this is that it's a problem BIOWARE has completely created themselves with absolutely pathetic testing and even worse listening skills. They thought they should completely over complicate a system to alleviate player stupidity, and this is what happened. The simplest solution would be to just add MK-3 Recruit gear INSIDE the WZ on the newly returned vendor, who would give it away for FREE!!! It would have zero value, cost nothing and be 100% disposable. If someone refused to wear it, that's what vote kick is for.

 

The best part - they still haven't fixed this. If I were getting an extra 1000 XP from a mission, you bet ur butt they'd pull the servers down and fix it THAT day.

[islander]

So your anti-bolster post was simply because it's not working and not anything that you listed? Because the idea of bolster is to do the same thing as recruit gear without having to actually put anything on. As for maxing comms, you realize that you basically have to PvP for 10-12 levels to max out comms after 40? Not everyone wants to level that way just to be relevant when they finally hit 55.

 

Contrary to what your beliefs seem to be, it is possible to have casual players in PvP who don't want to be decimated the second they step foot in a 55 warzone. A couple of stat point difference on each piece per PvP gear tier is enough, the min/maxing is what should really be determining the gear advantage.

 

The problem Jade, is the system is so fundamentally expansive that bugs and irregularities that exloit holes in the new bolster code will CONTINUE to be found for weeks and weeks - even after the augment bug. The system is huge, and fundamentally flawed.

 

What we have now in 2.0 with boltser is unquestionably worse then 1.7. People are leaving in droves, at least temporarily. The system is a noble idea, but the coders should have realized or vocalize to management what a terrible idea this is just based on the sheer volume of gear in the game. Coding a bolster to work correctly with literally thousands of items in the game is a daunting task for any coding group. Additionally, although the QA team should have caught things like augment bug and naked PvP (the latter they KNEW about, via PTS), there's also no way any QA staff could test every item in the game to make sure bolster doesn't give it some sick advantage it shouldn't be.

 

They just need to re-implement the recruit set. I feel for their problem with gear being free and as good as flashpoint gear. If the gear stats themselves HAVE to suck in order to not neutralize 55 flashpoint purples, then I mean, you compensate with higher expertise on the set. Maybe we just need to have a recruit set with full expertise but 75% of full partisan stats otherwise. Whatever it needs to be, it needs to return.

 

Eitehr way, the Recruit set has GOT to come back , and 55 bolster removed if there's ever going to be sanity in end game warzones again.

Edited May 8, 2013 by islander

[Devlonir]

I'm sure you may be a very intelligent individual, but you certainly didn't prove it in this post. The idea of PvP being difficult is because you are playing against other individuals who may or may not perform better than you. I like the idea of a small gear advantage for those who put in the time, but the idea of comparing a warzone to an operation is ludicrous. There is no warzone for people with lower gear in which to get better gear unlike being able to run story mode to prepare for hard mode and so on.

 

In that way, Operations have always had bolster. Feel free to jump in TFB or S&V story mode in your PvP gear and you'll be fine. Then you can get the higher tier and complete harder content. The same line of thinking can be applied to any PvE encounter because the AI can be tuned appropriately. But warzones will never have a set difficulty or cap on stats and thus, you can't make players unable to bridge the gap simply because of gear.

 

Is bolster working? Hell no, but it certainly could work in the future. I think they are working too hard to make an algorithm that works, when setting base stats for every piece without expertise is far simpler. There are those who want even stats for everyone in PvP which is somewhat bland and takes away options for customizing, but to say bolster (the way it's intended to work) will make anyone on par statwise with those in full PvP gear is ignorant at best. It is simply a way to make the experience enjoyable for all parties while you start your PvP journey at 55 and to help ensure that all of the "carebears" coming over from PvE aren't totally worthless teammates for you.

 

P.S. If gear progression is all that is keeping you going in PvP, you're doing it wrong.

Agree with every word you said.. especially the bolded areas. And this is why I keep saying: The concept of Bolster is the better solution than Recruit gear is. It simply needs a better, simpler implementation than what they are going for now.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Devlonir

[_Kayko_]

And on that occasion, please ban all accounts of frequent abusers, and report their credit cards stolen.

 

What, one can dream!

 

But but but, it's just a "bug." You can't very well go and punish people for a "bug." It's not like people are ACTIVELY EXPLOITING a mistake in coding when it comes to this. I mean come on now, we all know no one reads the ToS and Conduct Rules and every single player and Bioware employee missed the "Exploit any bug in the Service to gain unfair advantage in the game" part in the Rules of Conduct page...... oh.. umm wait a sec... Ya... It actually says that doesn't it?

 

Rules of Conduct source - http://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/rulesofconduct

[Jadescythe]

The problem Jade, is the system is so fundamentally expansive that bugs and irregularities that exloit holes in the new bolster code will CONTINUE to be found for weeks and weeks - even after the augment bug. The system is huge, and fundamentally flawed.

 

What we have now in 2.0 with boltser is unquestionably worse then 1.7. People are leaving in droves, at least temporarily. The system is a noble idea, but the coders should have realized or vocalize to management what a terrible idea this is just based on the sheer volume of gear in the game. Coding a bolster to work correctly with literally thousands of items in the game is a daunting task for any coding group. Additionally, although the QA team should have caught things like augment bug and naked PvP (the latter they KNEW about, via PTS), there's also no way any QA staff could test every item in the game to make sure bolster doesn't give it some sick advantage it shouldn't be.

 

They just need to re-implement the recruit set. I feel for their problem with gear being free and as good as flashpoint gear. If the gear stats themselves HAVE to suck in order to not neutralize 55 flashpoint purples, then I mean, you compensate with higher expertise on the set.

 

Eitehr way, the Recruit set has GOT to come back , and 55 bolster removed if there's ever going to be sanity in end game warzones again.

 

I agree that something had to be done about bolster, it's been too long with it not working correctly. I don't think recruit gear is the way to go, even as an interim solution, however. Once you go down that path, there is no taking it back and it does massively mess up PvE gear progression if it's going to be worthwhile to use in PvP.

 

Ultimately, my posts are not pro-bolster as it is currently, it's ridiculous, but bolster is a far better solution to the issue if it's working. I just don't see how you can implement a level 55 recruit gear and then take it out at a later time without pissing people off. Stop trying to alter stats based on gear, BW, you're never going to get it perfect. Just say all headpieces without expertise get x stats and all gloves get y stats, so only the newer PvP sets are better and everyone knows what they're getting going into a warzone. It's not hard.

[islander]

I just doubt bolster will be working correctly, 100%, for another couple months. That's an enormous penalty to your actual PvPers being guinea pigs all this time. not even a new warzone, or arenas, or SOMETHING fun to lube us up with.

 

I agree that a perfectly working bolster system would be the optimal solution. At what cost, though? It doesn't matter how good it ends up being if you lose 25% of your entire PvP base out of frustration. Plus, every expansion they'll have the same issues with new gear (just on a smaller scale, admittedly).

 

I mean, I'm not going to be quitting over it, but still. People are.

Edited May 8, 2013 by islander

[Jadescythe]

To avoid derailing this thread from bolster, I'll keep the specifics for another time, but the game is going massively downhill in all areas at the moment. The only enjoyable new features seem to be going to the cartel market, which makes me question why I'm paying a sub. Maybe that's why I dropped my 6 month sub to go month to month at this point...

[Hawkwalker]

To avoid derailing this thread from bolster, I'll keep the specifics for another time, but the game is going massively downhill in all areas at the moment. The only enjoyable new features seem to be going to the cartel market, which makes me question why I'm paying a sub. Maybe that's why I dropped my 6 month sub to go month to month at this point...

 

I with you on this, Jade. It makes me so sad to say so. I'm still holding on to the hope that they get back on track.

[SomeJagoff]

the idea of bolster is to do the same thing as recruit gear without having to actually put anything on.

 

If you're wearing top tier pve gear, or even second best pve gear, you now get expertise. So all the PVE stats are better than the actual PVP gear, but on top of that, now you get expertise in addition to that. That is very different from recruit gear. Recruit gear with equal expertise to partisan/conquerer, but less primary/secondary/tertiary stats would be a tier of gear "not as good" as partisan gear. That's the fundamental difference between recruit gear and bolster.

 

The idea of recruit gear is a good idea, but in practice was implemented poorly pre2.0 (NOT free for F2P players, awful stats). Bolster, however, is a bad idea in theory and in practice, obviously, as it has caused way more player frustration than recruit gear ever did.

 

The whole implementation of PVP in general for 2.0 has been a joke. They should have made the pvp gear tiers 72 conquerer, 69 partisan, 66 recruit. Instead, the best rating gear is 1 notch below Crafted pve gear? But yet they use bolster to try to make up for this by bolstering armor rating and weapon damage to underworld rating? Yeah, it's clear PVPers got the short end of the stick here.

 

As for the countless bugs, exploits that existed, exist, and will exist as more gear is introduced to the game, just a fundamental part of the bolster system as well. This is the garbage experience that pvpers have to look forward to.

 

It has now been a month of exploit laden bolstered pvp. They supposedly will fix the augment glitch on tuesday. Within a week, there will be yet more exploits revealed. And it will continue that way so long as this system is in place. So the question is, how many months do paying customers get screwed out of an even semi-enjoyable pvp experience due to bolster? I'm guessing probably about 6-8 months before they scrap it. That's their typical response time to Serious problems that the community is in an uproar about.

 

So again, the best solution is a new set of recruit pvp gear, moddable, with GOOD stats. There would be absolutely no reason for people not to wear it. And if for whatever reason they chose not to, Again, it is their fault if they get their butt kicked. The benefit here, of course, is, if there is no bolster, there can be no gear exploits. That's the real reason why people are against bolster, myself included.

 

When are your stats not your stats? When they're bolstered!

[SomeJagoff]

The bottom line to this is that it's a problem BIOWARE has completely created themselves with absolutely pathetic testing and even worse listening skills. They thought they should completely over complicate a system to alleviate player stupidity, and this is what happened. The simplest solution would be to just add MK-3 Recruit gear INSIDE the WZ on the newly returned vendor, who would give it away for FREE!!! It would have zero value, cost nothing and be 100% disposable. If someone refused to wear it, that's what vote kick is for.

 

Amen to that. I also think the idea of MK-3 recruit gear on the vendors in-match vendors is an excellent idea. To make sure it's not too cluttered, have it like this:

 

Recruit MK-3 Force Mystic Package

Recruit MK-3 Force Master Package

Recruit MK-3 War Leader Package

Recruit MK-3 Field Tech Package

 

Make all of packages cost like 10 warzone comms. Then once you open the package, all of the individual pieces have a vendor credit of 0 or 1.

 

There would be absolutely no excuse for somebody NOT to have their pvp gear at that point.

 

^That is a good way to "idiot proof" pvp for new players, not breaking the pvp system for everyone like they've done.

Edited May 8, 2013 by SomeJagoff

[Zadtro]

Remove bolster and throw in recruit gear. I like SomeJagoff's idea to make it extremely cheap so no one makes credits or has to spend alot of coms, i think that the stats should be low enough that it isnt good enough for hmfp or ops but good enough that they can atleast survive in pvp long enough to grind comms for partisian set. I spent ages grinding for the set but bolster throws in 37k hp tanks with over 1k of expertise which kinda defeats the point of pvp gear =[ Edited May 8, 2013 by Zadtro

[Technohic]

To avoid derailing this thread from bolster, I'll keep the specifics for another time, but the game is going massively downhill in all areas at the moment. The only enjoyable new features seem to be going to the cartel market, which makes me question why I'm paying a sub. Maybe that's why I dropped my 6 month sub to go month to month at this point...

 

I can agree with this. It isn't bolster driving me away. The only thing that bugs me about bolster (outside things like the augment bug) is the fact that it could be gamed to find better stats by playing around with how bolster will react to an item.

[islander]

I can agree with this. It isn't bolster driving me away. The only thing that bugs me about bolster (outside things like the augment bug) is the fact that it could be gamed to find better stats by playing around with how bolster will react to an item.

 

Right, and this is specifically what I was saying above - people will do anything tio win warzones, especially ranked. Integrity = optional

[Jadescythe]

So again, the best solution is a new set of recruit pvp gear, moddable, with GOOD stats.

 

I both agree and disagree with this statement. My ideal vision of bolster is to give everyone the same stats, but take the new gear pieces into consideration to allow for customization and improvement over the base stat line. So basically, if you have an expertise piece on, it won't change, but if any of the armoring,mod,enhancement do not have expertise, then you get put at a base stat level for that slot. It encourages you to PvP to get the stats you want without completely obliterating those who are more casual. It also forces everyone to have appropriate gear for the instance.

 

Basically, recruit gear without recruit gear, rather than some formula that everyone is basically going to find a way to manipulate every chance they get to have ideal stats.

[Pe-Te]

Jesus, they could just turn bolster off at 55 and fix this crapfest in a second. But NOO.

 

Any serious pvp-player doesnt expect that their old PVP set is "best" after a expansion, so battlemaster/war hero gear ppl could just do what i did on a new char. PLAY 2 weeks and get the full 1st set. Give out a new blue pvp set at 55, disable bolster at 55 and LET US PLAY PVP.

[Pe-Te]

So basically, if you have an expertise piece on, it won't change, but if any of the armoring,mod,enhancement do not have expertise, then you get put at a base stat level for that slot.

 

You could easily do that with a formula that uses HARD cap expertise ( cant remember hardcap, so ill just say even 2000 ).

 

Example, you have 1000 expertise, hardcap is ~2000, you have 50% of max, then you get reduced dps/damagereduce/healing by let say 15% in damage. If you have 0 expertise, you get a 30% reduction in damage ( aka half of the max hard cap dps boost ).

 

Then if you have full pvp gear with hardcap exp, you get exactly the pvp boost as shown in char screen normally.

 

That way PvE players would with 0 expertise get HALF of pvp boost stats, and PVP players would get near full, giving then clear advantage. And one coder could write this **** TODAY. They could put this system up UNTILL they figure out something fancy and very complex to code, like allways.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Pe-Te