How would Darth Maul do in TOR

[Wolfninjajedi]

Every time i read this ,here on these forums my head hurts.Repeated over and over and over like some mantra.Lol.

 

The only proof that he is the most powerful is simply a statement in wookiepedia,a statement by himself in the Plagueis novel to be exact .Exactly looking at his abilities make me think he is not most powerful and i don't consider the old EU-Dark Empire for example for something to be taken seriously.

Yes, amongs the most powerful sith lords ever,but ''the most'',hardly.

 

You don't even need to go to Dark Empire, there are other sources stating as such.

[Aurbere]

Every time i read this ,here on these forums my head hurts.Repeated over and over and over like some mantra.Lol.

 

The only proof that he is the most powerful is simply a statement in wookiepedia,a statement by himself in the Plagueis novel to be exact .Exactly looking at his abilities make me think he is not most powerful and i don't consider the old EU-Dark Empire for example for something to be taken seriously.

Yes, amongs the most powerful sith lords ever,but ''the most'',hardly.

 

He has been stated multiple times to be the most powerful Sith Lord ever. Not just in sourcebooks, but by G-canon sources.

 

If you refuse to consider his actions during Dark Empire (which doesn't really matter, the movies show him as the most powerful), then you may as well ignore the rest of the EU. They all consist of one flowing universe. Sidious' actions are apart of that single universe. As are Vitiate's. Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever. Everything points to that inescapable fact.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Aurbere

[Tycoon]

Ventessel: "Just because Sidious was "the most powerful Sith Lord" doesn't mean Maul would be a powerful combatant."

 

It doesn't? If being trained by a one of the greatest, if not the best SIth Lord, doesnt make you a powerful combatant, then I dont know what will...

 

Ventessel: "Power does not equal swordsmanship."

 

Im pretty sure power has some role in swordsmanship...

Edited March 22, 2013 by Tycoon

[Stevaelin]

He died like a punk in the movies, he'd die like a punk in the Old Republic.

[Ventessel]

Except that Sidious is the ultimate Sith Lord. The most powerful Sith Lord to ever live. You can't dispute this G-CANON fact. Simply look at his abilities, they outclass all that came before.

 

G-Canon (a.k.a. the movies) shows us a guy who can make good use of telekinesis, fight with Mace Windu, and dish out Force Lightning, in addition to vaguely using the Dark Side to cloud the Jedi's sensing abilities... or something like that. It's tough to tell what Yoda is trying to say in the prequels.

 

Some sloppily written nonsense in the early EU, Dark Empire, produces an absurd demi-god who basically rips apart reality on a whim and continually resurrects himself. Consider that these works were written long before most of the Jedi/Sith mythology had been explored, and there was no context to base the powers of Force Users on aside from the few things seen in the classic trilogies. So bear that in mind when considering that writing.

[Kaedusz]

shows us a guy who can make good use of telekinesis, fight with Mace Windu, and dish out Force Lightning, in addition to vaguely using the Dark Side to cloud the Jedi's sensing abilities... or something like that. It's tough to tell what Yoda is trying to say in the prequels.

 

Some sloppily written nonsense in the early EU, Dark Empire, produces an absurd demi-god who basically rips apart reality on a whim and continually resurrects himself. Consider that these works were written long before most of the Jedi/Sith mythology had been explored, and there was no context to base the powers of Force Users on aside from the few things seen in the classic trilogies. So bear that in mind when considering that writing.[/color]

 

Was just gonna reply to the above posters but this guy was faster then me so... what he said ^

Edited March 22, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Ventessel]

Ventessel: "Just because Sidious was "the most powerful Sith Lord" doesn't mean Maul would be a powerful combatant."

 

It doesn't? If being trained by a one of the greatest, if not the best SIth Lord, doesnt make you a powerful combatant, then I dont know what will...

Consider why Sidious was training him. Sidious never intended for Maul to be a great Sith Lord, he just needed a tool, an assassin. So Maul would have been trained in combat, but not in the mysteries of the Dark Side that made Sidious so powerful.

Ventessel: "Power does not equal swordsmanship."

 

Im pretty sure power has some role in swordsmanship...

Not according to the man regarded as the greatest Sith blademaster of his era, and potentially the best to live.

"Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force."

―Kas'im's view on lightsaber dueling

Power in the force can augment your lightsaber fighting abilities via telekinesis, force speed, etc. but none of these are powers that we really see Maul make proficient use of.

 

Lastly, power is a very relative term. Sidious may have been powerful in the sense that he controlled the galaxy to a greater extent than any previous

Edited March 22, 2013 by Ventessel

[Beniboybling]

Guys, let's get one thing straight - Sidious is canonically the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived, George Lucas said so himself. As in personally, his own words, not indirectly through movies or books, or through the EU, he said it himself. If you dispute this, then we may as well not have a debate. Why? Because by debating a fictional universe we have to accept some sort of canonical grounds for debating it. And this is canon. And by the way, Lucas said he was the most powerful 'force user'. And there are a wealth of quotes from several Star Wars books (not novels/comics) saying as much. Managed to dig up some quotes:

 

"Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda were the only Jedi left in a position to do something about the disaster. Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

~ The New Essential Chronology

 

"Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known." ~ Vader: The Ultimate Guide

 

"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides."

~ Star Wars: Databank

 

NOTE: This is coming from a guy who thinks a majority of the post-ROTJ is complete rubbish, especially Palpatine Reborn and his OP abilities. But I think his abilities prior to that, his background etc. prove that he is the most powerful Sith Lord, ever.

 

Let's also remember that Darth Sidious achieved absolute mastery over all forms of lightsaber combat to the highest extent, and I expect he was particular proficient in the Sith form - Juyo. He is therefore more than capable of training Maul to be a perfect duelist. I mean, I'm not sure I understand Ventessel's reasoning. I recall one of his arguments for why PT Jedi are skilled duelists etc. was because they had veteran masters who had fought in combat against Sith, to train them. So surely anyone who learns at the feet of the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived, is going to be powerful?

 

He trained Darth Maul to be a living weapon, literally Maul's training was dedicated to lightsaber combat. He mastered Juyo and Jar'Kai. This gives him an edge over any Sith in the OR era who has not fully mastered a lightsaber form - on which there were many.

 

Concerning Force lighting, it cannot be compared to shrapnel etc. Its an incredibly powerful ability that inflicts burns, brain damage, blindness, calcification and seizures. Maul suffered none of these effects, he absorbed her attack and powered through it, then proceeded to kill her. Mighella was an exceptional powerful darksider and unleashed a barrage of lightning at him which had minimal effect, she is likely more powerful than many Inquisitors in the Sith Empire. That is if they get a chance to attack, lets remember Maul was an assassin and Juyo was a heavily offensive style that opened with an 'assured strike' which was pretty much assured a hit against all but the most skilled of opponents. Like Vent's quote says, "Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force."

 

P.S. Despite what many say about Wookieepedia, it is a well respected source and recognised by the Star Wars franchise, just look at their databank, every article has a Wookieepedia on it.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

G-Canon (a.k.a. the movies) shows us a guy who can make good use of telekinesis, fight with Mace Windu, and dish out Force Lightning, in addition to vaguely using the Dark Side to cloud the Jedi's sensing abilities... or something like that. It's tough to tell what Yoda is trying to say in the prequels..

Translation: G-Canon (a.k.a. the word of George Lucas) shows us a guy who defeated the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, an extremely powerful Jedi, matched the fighting prowess of one of most skilled lightsaber duelist in Jedi history (who perfected the Juyo form) and managed to cloud the entire Jedi Order from his dark side presence, despite on multiple occasions being in the same room. Oh and don't forget the part where he killed 3 Jedi council members in 3 seconds.

[Aurbere]

G-Canon (a.k.a. the movies) shows us a guy who can make good use of telekinesis, fight with Mace Windu, and dish out Force Lightning, in addition to vaguely using the Dark Side to cloud the Jedi's sensing abilities... or something like that. It's tough to tell what Yoda is trying to say in the prequels.

 

 

The movies show us Darth Sidious defeating the most powerful Jedi the Jedi Order had seen up to that point, fight to a stalemate one of the greatest duelists the Jedi Order had ever produced, throw around Senate Pods like they are small rocks, and cloud his presence from the entire Jedi Order. He was practically invisible to them even while sitting in the same room with Master Yoda, who had incredibly acute Force Senses.

 

That's not even considering everything else he's done just in the timeline of the movies (before being reborn).

 

Not only that, but multiple sources will tell you that he is the most powerful Sith Lord to ever exist. From sourcebooks to authors to Leland and George.

[Ventessel]

Guys, let's get one thing straight - Sidious is canonically the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived,

George Lucas said so himself. As in personally, his own words, not indirectly through movies or books, or through the EU, he said it himself. If you dispute this, then we may as well not have a debate. Why? Because by debating a fictional universe we have to accept some sort of canonical grounds for debating it. And this is canon. And by the way, Lucas said he was the most powerful 'force user'. And there are a wealth of quotes from several Star Wars books (not novels/comics) saying as much.

Managed to dig up some quotes:

 

"Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda were the only Jedi left in a position to do something about the disaster. Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

~ The New Essential Chronology

 

"Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known." ~ Vader: The Ultimate Guide

 

"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides."

~ Star Wars: Databank

 

See, those quotes are still a little ambiguous. Yes, canonically, Yoda and Palpatine are the two most powerful Force Users in their era. But to turn that into a blanket statement, a blind comparison without rhyme or reason, it just doesn't make sense.

 

Now, here's a few good quotes from Nick Gillard, the man that Lucas trusted to establish the fighting abilities of all the prequel characters:

"Palpatine is ambidextrous with his saber. He's THAT good." -NG

 

"Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced." - NG

 

"It took a really long time for Nick (Gillard) to work out Sidious' fighting style, and he has a style that's constantly changing. His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him." -GL

 

"Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style."

 

"He's better than Yoda in a way because he has the extra power of the dark side," Gillard explains. "His character is so shrouded that his fighting style should be shrouded as well. The Emperor is deadly dangerous."- from the article "Master Behind the Action: Nick Gillard".

 

"In Episode III, Mace has to use every ounce of his ability. He has to fight for his life. - NG"

 

All of this points to Palpatine being a very dangerous fighter, and really beyond the abilities of any of the Jedi alive during the prequels. But that doesn't mean that Maul has received all the training that Palpatine can give him. The idea was never for Maul to supplant Sidious as the Dark Lord of the Sith, so it makes no sense for Palpatine to train him to fight as well as he can. In fact, this quote paints a different picture:

"A saber-staff! The weapon of Exar Kun! Did he construct that?"

"The prototype was two lightsabers he had wielded pommel-to-pommel in imitation of the Iridonian zhaboka. I furnished the knowledge that allowed him to improve on the original design and construct the one he is using."

"It strikes me as unnecessary, but I won't deny his mastery of the Jar'Kai technique. Niman and teräs käsi will never substitute for dun möch, but I appreciate that you have trained him to be a fighting machine rather than a true apprentice."

―Darth Plagueis and Darth Sidious, discussing Maul's lightsaber training

Clearly, Palpatine was merely teaching Maul enough to make him dangerous to the Jedi, but not enough that he would ever be a personal threat to Palpatine. So we can't really assess Maul's abilities as "He was trained by Sidious so he must be amazing!". An actual assessment of Maul's abilities follows:

Maul only devoted himself to Form VII's physical focus, desiring pure physical victory, rather than the "higher" Sith tradition of Dun Möch; dominating the opponent's spirit and exposing his inner doubts through taunts and psychological warfare.

In addition to this, Maul had training in Niman lightsaber combat and the Jar'Kai dual-saber technique as well as mastery of the fighting style of Teräs Käsi.

~Wookiepedia

 

Let's also remember that Darth Sidious achieved absolute mastery over all forms of lightsaber combat to the highest extent, and I expect he was particular proficient in the Sith form - Juyo. He is therefore more than capable of training Maul to be a perfect duelist. I mean, I'm not sure I understand Ventessel's reasoning. I recall one of his arguments for why PT Jedi are skilled duelists etc. was because they had veteran masters who had fought in combat against Sith, to train them. So surely anyone who learns at the feet of the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived, is going to be powerful?

 

That's just the point, while capable of passing on his mastery to Maul, he didn't. He specifically trained Maul to be dangerous... but only to a certain extent. He needed him competent enough to engage and kill certain Jedi, but not so ferocious as to ever come near Palpatine's own abilities. He unfortunately miscalculated, because in his effort to toe that fine line, he left Maul vulnerable to being taken out by one pissed off Jedi Padawan, Obi-Wan.

He trained Darth Maul to be a living weapon, literally Maul's training was dedicated to lightsaber combat. He mastered Juyo and Jar'Kai. This gives him an edge over any Sith in the OR era who has not fully mastered a lightsaber form - on which there were many.

 

Sure, many Sith haven't yet mastered a lightsaber form, but many others (especially Darths or Dark Council Members) will have mastered one or more forms. There is nothing to indicate that such blademasters do not exist, since knowledge of the forms has been advanced as far it will go, and the Sith of Vitiate's Empire have even developed new and unfamiliar lightsaber techniques which Maul would not know.

 

Concerning Force lighting, it cannot be compared to shrapnel etc. Its an incredibly powerful ability that inflicts burns, brain damage, blindness, calcification and seizures.

Maul suffered none of these effects, he absorbed her attack and powered through it, then proceeded to kill her. Mighella was an exceptional powerful darksider and unleashed a barrage of lightning at him which had minimal effect, she is likely more powerful than many Inquisitors in the Sith Empire. That is if they get a chance to attack, lets remember Maul was an assassin and Juyo was a heavily offensive style that opened with an 'assured strike' which was pretty much assured a hit against all but the most skilled of opponents. Like Vent's quote says, "Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force."

 

No doubt Force Lightning is deadly and all, but Maul's ability to shrug off its effects seems more to indicate that this Nightsister was weaker in her use of the Force than, say, Count Dooku. While Maul can kill someone by surprise assassination, so can anyone else. The beauty of surprise assassination, one that is hammered into everyone who works in the security industry, is that there is no defense against it once the assassin is in place. The president is protected because people will literally dive in front of a gun to protect him. Otherwise, you can only hope to spot the assassin before he is ready to strike, or you will die.

P.S. Despite what many say about Wookieepedia, it is a well respected source and recognised by the Star Wars franchise, just look at their databank, every article has a Wookieepedia on it.

I, for one, believe it is one of the foremost sources for Star Wars materiel outside of Leland Chee's Holocron continuity database. Chee himself stated in an interview with Wired magazine that the best reference for materiel he hasn't yet added to the Holocron is Wookiepedia.

[Beniboybling]

See, those quotes are still a little ambiguous. Yes, canonically, Yoda and Palpatine are the two most powerful Force Users in their era. But to turn that into a blanket statement, a blind comparison without rhyme or reason, it just doesn't make sense.

How are they ambiguous? They are all basically saying that Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history. No ambiguity to what that means. You could argue they mean power in terms of Empire etc. but it is clear that all these quotes are referring to personal prowess in the Force and with the lightsaber. I see no room for interpretation, what else can possibly be inferred from this?

All of this points to Palpatine being a very dangerous fighter, and really beyond the abilities of any of the Jedi alive during the prequels. But that doesn't mean that Maul has received all the training that Palpatine can give him. The idea was never for Maul to supplant Sidious as the Dark Lord of the Sith, so it makes no sense for Palpatine to train him to fight as well as he can...

 

...Clearly, Palpatine was merely teaching Maul enough to make him dangerous to the Jedi, but not enough that he would ever be a personal threat to Palpatine. So we can't really assess Maul's abilities as "He was trained by Sidious so he must be amazing!"

All I'm saying is, Maul mastered Juyo and Jar'Kai and all his trained was devoted to lightsaber combat, and that exceptional teachers producer exceptional students. He was honed into a killing machine worthy of the ultimate Sith Lord. I see no reason why Sidious would refrain from training Maul in these forms to perfection, even then Maul only has mastery over two (possible three) forms while Sidious has mastery over them all, and no exceptional ability in Force powers.

...and the Sith of Vitiate's Empire have even developed new and unfamiliar lightsaber techniques which Maul would not know.

Such as? I was not aware this was the case.

While Maul can kill someone by surprise assassination, so can anyone else. The beauty of surprise assassination, one that is hammered into everyone who works in the security industry, is that there is no defense against it once the assassin is in place. The president is protected because people will literally dive in front of a gun to protect him. Otherwise, you can only hope to spot the assassin before he is ready to strike, or you will die.

Not exactly true, not everyone can perform assassination. Because 'getting into the right place' is most of the job - and when the Force is involved its a whole different story. You also need to be powerful enough and skilled enough to deal a killing blow - we have to be careful when comparing Star Wars to reality. But I'm not really talking about assassination here, more the ability to catch your opponent of guard and push the offensive until they are dead.

 

I would however concur that Maul's lack of training in the Force would make his success limited in the TOR period, however he makes up for it a lot through his skill with the lightsaber, which was very profound. I have not doubt that he would prove an effective, high-ranking, assassin of the Sith Empire. And would strike fear into the hearts of Sith and Jedi alike. If we really wanted to stretch the hypothesis, he'd likely become apprentice to the Keeper of Mysteries (Pyramid of Assassins) who would train him in the Force and in cunning. Soon enough he would grow more powerful than his master and strike him down, taking his place on the Dark Council

[Aurbere]

Concerning Maul's training, Sidious has this to say.

 

I took him from his homeworld, Iridonia, and raised him as I would construct the perfect weapon. I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the dark side. Maul had one reason for being: to exact vengeance against the Jedi Order for the decimation of the Sith ranks.

 

He elaborates on this, but the above is the gist of it. Take it as you will.

[Ventessel]

How are they ambiguous? They are all basically saying that Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history. No ambiguity to what that means. You could argue they mean power in terms of Empire etc. but it is clear that all these quotes are referring to personal prowess in the Force and with the lightsaber. I see no room for interpretation, what else can possibly be inferred from this?

Well, consider the source materiel here. It's all dated from 2005, which is long before any of the characters or concepts for TOR were created. So, the ambiguity enters in when you consider the context of the writing.

 

To specifically insert Maul into the Cold War Era is an entirely new area of consideration. The scope and abilities that we see demonstrated by Vitiate and his Empire arguably rival that of Sidious' empire and his acolytes.

 

All I'm saying is, Maul mastered Juyo and Jar'Kai and all his trained was devoted to lightsaber combat, and that exceptional teachers producer exceptional students. He was honed into a killing machine worthy of the ultimate Sith Lord. I see no reason why Sidious would refrain from training Maul in these forms to perfection, even then Maul only has mastery over two (possible three) forms while Sidious has mastery over them all, and no exceptional ability in Force powers.

 

I'm personally very skeptical of this phrase "mastery", what exactly does it entail? We never really are told what the definition of mastery in a particular form is. We are told that some characters mastered a certain form "to its highest extent", such as Yoda mastering Ataru, but most other people are only given vague details. Many Jedi are classified as "practitioners" of this form or that form, but from era to era I'm sure the definition of a "master" probably shifted depending on the relative skill levels of his peers.

 

Furthermore, Maul is not mentioned to have mastered any form. He is mentioned to have mastered Teras Kasi, but only to have studied Niman and Jar'Kai while devoting the majority of his time to working on Juyo.

Such as? I was not aware this was the case.

 

"During the interim, the Sith Lords retained full access to the traditional forms, and they were in use within the Empire as early as the Jedi Civil War, with such notables as the Emperor's Wrath Scourge studying Forms VII, IV, and III. There is little doubt the Sith also used the time to develop their own combat styles, although there are few records indicating clearly what they were. This was matched by the Jedi with their development of Juyo-Kos, a refinement of the already lethal Juyo to meet the demands of these dangerous times, which saw frequent and brutal engagements between Jedi and Sith." ~ Wookiepedia

 

I could say more, but there isn't a detailed amount of information on what these styles were.

Not exactly true, not everyone can perform assassination. Because 'getting into the right place' is most of the job - and when the Force is involved its a whole different story. You also need to be powerful enough and skilled enough to deal a killing blow - we have to be careful when comparing Star Wars to reality. But I'm not really talking about assassination here, more the ability to catch your opponent of guard and push the offensive until they are dead.

Well, on that note Darth Maul has demonstrated little ability at positioning himself for smooth assassinations. If your target has a chance to get his guard up and fight back, and you need to "push the offensive", then it's not an assassination.

I would however concur that Maul's lack of training in the Force would make his success limited in the TOR period, however he makes up for it a lot through his skill with the lightsaber, which was very profound. I have not doubt that he would prove an effective, high-ranking, assassin of the Sith Empire. And would strike fear into the hearts of Sith and Jedi alike. If we really wanted to stretch the hypothesis, he'd likely become apprentice to the Keeper of Mysteries (Pyramid of Assassins) who would train him in the Force and in cunning. Soon enough he would grow more powerful than his master and strike him down, taking his place on the Dark Council

Now that's completely hypothetical. Maul demonstrates minimal cunning and ingenuity, he would probably make a very poor assassin. He was a blunt implement, Palpatine aimed and controlled him and he just attacked. More of an attack dog or thug than a truly talented assassin.

[Ventessel]

Concerning Maul's training, Sidious has this to say.

 

I took him from his homeworld, Iridonia, and raised him as I would construct the perfect weapon. I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the dark side. Maul had one reason for being: to exact vengeance against the Jedi Order for the decimation of the Sith ranks.

 

He elaborates on this, but the above is the gist of it. Take it as you will.

 

I think I'll take it as a statement by an unhinged egomaniac Sith. I mean, "exotic and forbidden martial arts"? Does he mean Teras Kasi, because that's not quite "forbidden". In fact, I don't know of any "forbidden martial arts". Exotic, yes; forbidden, not so much.

 

The problem with Maul is that he's just a weapon, nothing more. He, in and of himself, is incapable of doing much. They did reinvent him somewhat in Clone Wars, but even then he's more of a lost puppy running around biting at people's heels until Sidious reins him in.

[Kaedusz]

The movies show us Darth Sidious defeating the most powerful Jedi the Jedi Order had seen up to that point, fight to a stalemate one of the greatest duelists the Jedi Order had ever produced,

 

And here we go again...Our favorite movie characters are the gods of the universe yoda-most powerful jedi ever,ever and Palpatine most powerful sith ever ,ever yada yada bla bla bla...

This is so laughable i am starting to wondering if you are really serious.

Yes Palpatine is the most powerful force user in his time and the culmination of rule of two,yes Yoda is the most powerful jedi in his time. BUT EVER IN ALL GALACTIC HISTORY . i mean seriously ,stop it its getting old and childish.And there are no evidence whatsover to support that ,except lone statements.

 

Everything Yoda and Palpatine did is old news when you consider all SW lore(talking about abilities).They are considered cool and all powerful for no other reason than because they are in the movies and in the spotlight .Nothing more.

I mean don't get me wrong Palpatine is one of my favorite Sith ever,and he is my favorite movie character,and obviously he is among the most power sith ever,but the fanboysm and blind single-mindedness shown by some movie fans in this forum is ridiculous.

 

* * *

I don't think when in most of the lore revolving around the movies and in most of the G-canon about them, when they say ever/of all time/in galactic history,when they say that ,i don't think they go beyond the Ruusan Reformation or Darth Ruin at the most.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Kaedusz

[LadyKulvax]

*Snip*

 

Stop trying this 'fight the system' shtick, it gets old and quick, canon is canon, don't like it? tough, plenty of stuff I don't like throughout canon, but blatantly arguing against the most well sourced canon in the entire IP is frankly ludicrous in and of itself.

[Beniboybling]

Stop trying this 'fight the system' shtick, it gets old and quick, canon is canon, don't like it? tough, plenty of stuff I don't like throughout canon, but blatantly arguing against the most well sourced canon in the entire IP is frankly ludicrous in and of itself.

Exactly, you may get tired of people saying 'Luke is the most powerful Jedi' and 'Sidious is the most powerful Sith' but we get equally tired of people railing against it for no real reason other than the general consensus that 'G-Canon sucks'. Read over your comment again and tell us who's being childish.

[Beniboybling]

Well, consider the source materiel here. It's all dated from 2005, which is long before any of the characters or concepts for TOR were created. So, the ambiguity enters in when you consider the context of the writing.

 

To specifically insert Maul into the Cold War Era is an entirely new area of consideration. The scope and abilities that we see demonstrated by Vitiate and his Empire arguably rival that of Sidious' empire and his acolytes.

Yes, true. But unfortunately the fact of the matter is, canon dictates that Sidious is the most powerful in Sith Lord in galactic history. So until said otherwise, we have to assume that he surpassed the likes of Vitiate - which personally I don't have a problem believing. The only really impressive thing Vitiate has achieved is 'the Void' ritual. But I reckon Sidious could perform that too. I mean I don't want to bring in Dark Empire here but he did summon a hyperspace wormhole that can tear apart entire planets and teleport fleets. Seeing as IMO both feats are bordering on the ridiculous I think its fair to compare them.

I'm personally very skeptical of this phrase "mastery", what exactly does it entail? We never really are told what the definition of mastery in a particular form is. We are told that some characters mastered a certain form "to its highest extent", such as Yoda mastering Ataru, but most other people are only given vague details. Many Jedi are classified as "practitioners" of this form or that form, but from era to era I'm sure the definition of a "master" probably shifted depending on the relative skill levels of his peers.

 

Furthermore, Maul is not mentioned to have mastered any form. He is mentioned to have mastered Teras Kasi, but only to have studied Niman and Jar'Kai while devoting the majority of his time to working on Juyo.

Of course the term is vague, but its a good way of comparing abilites across eras. For example a Sith in the OR era who has not achieved mastery over any forms is not going to be as skilled as Maul who has mastered several. And I do believe he did, Plagueis is impressed by his mastery of Jar'Kai and Maul dedicated much of his training to mastering Juyo - given the fact that Sidious had all his training dedicated to lightsaber combat, it seems logical that he mastered several forms, there is no reason why he would not have.

 

And speaking of the ability to assassinate, perhaps I used the wrong words. I was more referring to the ability to get a jump on ones opponent and continually push the offensive, giving them no time to react and in this case no time to unleash their Force powers. Which would be aided by his skills in stealth and practice of Juyo. But for the record, we can assume Maul was an effective assassin as Sidious sent him to the Osiris Academy - which trained assassins, trackers, spies and soldiers - for seven years. He has also prove effective in assassinating several targets e.g. the entire Black Sun hierarchy.

"During the interim, the Sith Lords retained full access to the traditional forms, and they were in use within the Empire as early as the Jedi Civil War, with such notables as the Emperor's Wrath Scourge studying Forms VII, IV, and III. There is little doubt the Sith also used the time to develop their own combat styles, although there are few records indicating clearly what they were. This was matched by the Jedi with their development of Juyo-Kos, a refinement of the already lethal Juyo to meet the demands of these dangerous times, which saw frequent and brutal engagements between Jedi and Sith." ~ Wookiepedia

 

I could say more, but there isn't a detailed amount of information on what these styles were.

OK, interesting. However Maul was trained in 'exotica and forbidden' techniques, granted they are not all specified but the statement is no more vague than yours.

Now that's completely hypothetical. Maul demonstrates minimal cunning and ingenuity, he would probably make a very poor assassin. He was a blunt implement, Palpatine aimed and controlled him and he just attacked. More of an attack dog or thug than a truly talented assassin.

I disagree, Maul displayed himself to be an effective assassin when dealing with the Black Sun, nor would I call him a 'blunt implement' - that would imply he used unrefined, brute force to deal with his opponents when in fact Darth Sidious trained him to be a perfect killing machine. He was a honed weapon. However I would agree he needs a hand to guide him, but TCW shows that if anything, he has the potential to learn. Given that Sidious gave him no 'training' in manipulation and deception, its quite impressive that he managed to conquer a planet in the way he did. Without, may I add, simply using brute force.

[Kaedusz]

for no real reason other than the general consensus that 'G-Canon sucks'. [/color]

 

That's not the reason at all ,all i don't like seeing are empty refrains of the ''most powerful ever'' sort ,without any theorycrafting and just accepting blindly statements written or said somewhere even if it is G-canon.

 

If some1 said Revan is the most powerful jedi ever in history and then uses ''he could throw a rock at you using the force'' and ''he was master of this and that lightsaber form'' as an argument i wouldn't like it as well.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

That's not the reason at all ,all i don't like seeing are empty refrains of the ''most powerful ever'' sort ,without any theorycrafting and just accepting blindly statements written or said somewhere even if it is G-canon.

 

If some1 said Revan is the most powerful jedi ever in history and then uses ''he could throw a rock at you using the force'' and ''he was master of this and that lightsaber form'' as an argument i wouldn't like it as well.

Accept there are numerous justifications for Sidious being the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Else it wouldn't have been declared canon:

 

 

• He mastered all seven lightsaber forms and stances, he was a Sith Swordsmaster.
  
• He knew of every dark side power in Sith history.
  
• He was a master of Sith alchemy and magic.
  
• He displayed incredible feats of power prior to his apprenticeship.
  
• He defeat 3 of the Order's finest Jedi in a matter of seconds.
  
• He was a living Force nexus of dark side energy.
  
• Yet managed to completely mask this presence from the entire Jedi Order, even when in close proximity to them and despite them being aware of the possible presence of a Sith Lord in the Senate.
  

 

He is more powerful than Vitiate in every way, who relied on the strength of hundreds of Sith to complete his greatest feat. Really I can think of no other who matches his abilities. Can you?

[Ventessel]

Accept there are numerous justifications for Sidious being the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Else it wouldn't have been declared canon:

 

He defeat 3 of the Order's finest Jedi in a matter of seconds.

 

Totally unrelated, but I found some old behind the scenes stuff and interviews with the cast and crew of Star Wars. There's footage from an interview where Nick Gillard says "Kit Fisto goes out like a bi-*tch", and someone on the set when they shot that scene said something to the effect of "Hey, Mace brought his B-team!".

 

So "3 of the Order's finest" obviously didn't impress anyone. Those guys were chumps.

[LadyKulvax]

Totally unrelated, but I found some old behind the scenes stuff and interviews with the cast and crew of Star Wars. There's footage from an interview where Nick Gillard says "Kit Fisto goes out like a bi-*tch", and someone on the set when they shot that scene said something to the effect of "Hey, Mace brought his B-team!".

 

So "3 of the Order's finest" obviously didn't impress anyone. Those guys were chumps.

 

Yes because Nick Gillard, a stunt co-ordinator is a brilliant source of information that clearly trumps every other source there is.

[Ventessel]

Of course the term is vague, but its a good way of comparing abilites across eras. For example a Sith in the OR era who has not achieved mastery over any forms is not going to be as skilled as Maul who has mastered several. And I do believe he did, Plagueis is impressed by his mastery of Jar'Kai and Maul dedicated much of his training to mastering Juyo - given the fact that Sidious had all his training dedicated to lightsaber combat, it seems logical that he mastered several forms, there is no reason why he would not have.

 

Of course, anyone who wasn't an accomplished practitioner (a "master, if you will) of a certain form would likely lose to Maul in a fight. Maul is competent, and very proficient with his lightsaber, but so are many others in this era.

 

Many Sith are likely masters of two or more forms of lightsaber combat, and there are clearly many experienced practitioners of numerous forms which were considered almost unknown in later years:

Two blade Ataru, for instance, is practiced by many Marauders.

Saberstaffs are not just familiar, but common among many Jedi and Sith combatants.

 

So Maul would likely rate as slightly above average in this era. He could hold his own in most duels, and would probably be considered one of the more skilled warriors with a saberstaff. However, his skills do not appear to elevate him above the abilities of most Sith in this era, especially if the considerations include Force techniques. The use of Force techniques in combat was far more aggressive and frequent than it is in the PT Era, and Maul would be severely overmatched in many cases by his more proficient adversaries.

 

OK, interesting. However Maul was trained in 'exotica and forbidden' techniques, granted they are not all specified but the statement is no more vague than yours.

This is true, I suppose we can consider that Maul has hand to hand training of a unique nature for his time period. Then again, in the Rise of the Empire period, the Echani arts were considered to be "exotic and forbidden" techniques taught to the Imperial Guardsmen, so Maul's training may not be all that great compared to that of many combatants in the GGW.

I disagree, Maul displayed himself to be an effective assassin when dealing with the Black Sun, nor would I call him a 'blunt implement' - that would imply he used unrefined, brute force to deal with his opponents when in fact Darth Sidious trained him to be a perfect killing machine. He was a honed weapon. However I would agree he needs a hand to guide him, but TCW shows that if anything, he has the potential to learn. Given that Sidious gave him no 'training' in manipulation and deception, its quite impressive that he managed to conquer a planet in the way he did. Without, may I add, simply using brute force.

 

He gained control of the Death Watch by winning a duel, took on the Black Sun by basically kicking in the door and killing everyone with a lightsaber... I'm not seeing him use anything besides brute force.

 

Sure, he was an effective tracker and scout when he had to be, but his plan of attack always consisted of "Run straight in and turn on my lightsaber!"

[Beniboybling]

Totally unrelated, but I found some old behind the scenes stuff and interviews with the cast and crew of Star Wars. There's footage from an interview where Nick Gillard says "Kit Fisto goes out like a bi-*tch", and someone on the set when they shot that scene said something to the effect of "Hey, Mace brought his B-team!".

 

So "3 of the Order's finest" obviously didn't impress anyone. Those guys were chumps.

This isn't exactly solid evidence is it? Some joke made on set, likely referring to Sidious' general awesomeness rather than their actual in-universe skill with a lightsaber

 

However it does bear some weight, these Jedi were not the best of the Jedi Council - other masters such as Mundi and Koon were superior. But nonetheless they were Jedi Masters, and they were on the Jedi Council. And they were renowned for their ability with the lightsaber. Heck, anyone who can kill 3 Jedi who aren't fresh Younglings in a matter of seconds is seriously skilled. The fact they were masters of the Jedi Council only emphasizes his incredible abilities.