A New Versus Series!

[Darkelefantos]

Anyway probably not best to have this debate right now, have the match if you like but don't say I didn't warn you.

 

"Warn"? I really doubt Aurbere will make it such that Traya will tear the flesh from Maul's bones, causing a bloodbath that would require us to be "warned" before reading

No, really, I doubt anyone will complain, regardless of the victor.

[Beniboybling]

The evidence would suggest that, while he is a master defensive duelist, his ability to defend himself against Force based attacks is limited. Kenobi has shown very powerful Force abilities, but his ability to defend against Force users of equal or greater ability is not great.

Indeed, I might do a future analysis on him. Well I'm planning on doing one on just about everyone eventually but him a little sooner.

[Aurbere]

Indeed, I might do a future analysis on him. Well I'm planning on doing one on just about everyone eventually but him a little sooner.

 

I look forward to it.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I look forward to it.

 

Aurbere! Where is the Ewok thing?! I WANNA KNOW!!!

[Aurbere]

OK, everybody! Here is Darth Maul vs. Darth Traya, as requested by Selenial!

 

Darth Maul vs. Darth Traya

 

Lightsaber Skill:

 

Darth Maul:

 

After returning to the galactic stage, Darth Maul wielded a single red-bladed lightsaber. He is a master of Jar’Kai dual-blade combat, as well as Forms VI and VII, Niman and Juyo. Maul was a master of lightsaber combat, slaying several legendary Jedi Masters like Qui-Gon Jinn, Anoon Bondara, and Siolo’urmanka. His skills in lightsaber combat allowed him to briefly hold his own against Darth Sidious himself.

 

Maul generally focused on speed and aggression, wielding his lightsaber one-handed for quick strikes, reserving his second hand for punches, Force attacks, and if need be two-handed power attacks.

 

Darth Traya:

 

Despite being a historian, Darth Traya had a vast knowledge of lightsaber combat, capable of recognizing the Form an opponent used and distinguishing their weaknesses. She utilized the Forms Makashi and Soresu, and wielded a single crimson lightsaber. She also possessed three lightsabers that she wielded telekinetically.

 

Traya has shown remarkable agility, while unarmed she capable of dodging lightsaber attacks from trained lightsaber duelists.

 

Edge: While Traya is a skilled duelist in her own right. When it comes down to pure skill, Darth Maul is obviously superior.

 

Physicality:

 

Darth Maul:

 

Darth Maul is a young Zabrak Male in his physical prime. He is agile, strong, and incredibly tough. As a Zabrak, Maul has a high tolerance for pain. Through sheer willpower, Maul survived being cut in half, though his mind fell into madness.

 

Maul was trained as a living weapon. Most of his training was dedicated to improving his physical prowess. He is a master of Teras Kasi, and his new cybernetic legs only improve the damage that his unarmed attacks can do.

 

Darth Traya:

 

Darth Traya is an elderly woman in her fifties or sixties. Despite her age, she can improve her physical capabilities through the Force. Most notably was her ability to increase her own speed, as previously noted.

 

Edge: Traya has shown herself to be physically capable. However, Darth Maul obviously has the edge. He has a natural tolerance for pain, and he is in his physical prime.

 

 

Mentality:

 

Darth Maul:

 

After recovering from his decade-long madness, Darth Maul’s mentality changed. He fully embraced the directives of the Rule of Two, and became a great manipulator, creating a criminal empire and staging rebellions. However, many of his actions were planned to defeat Obi-Wan Kenobi, a Jedi that Maul absolutely despised.

 

He remained a very intuitive duelist, using everything on the field of battle to his advantage, and he was more than capable of recognizing an opponent’s fighting style and quickly devising tactics to exploit their weaknesses. In addition to his intuitive mind, Darth Maul became a proficient user of the Sith Dun Moch tactic, a method of psychological warfare designed to unbalance an opponent by taunting them.

 

Darth Traya:

 

Darth Traya was a natural manipulator. The Dark Wars became her own personal game of dejarik. Whole battles were the product of her manipulations. Many men and women were manipulated by her, becoming pieces in a game that would end with her own death. Traya manipulated all those she encountered, using them as tools in her own game. Each move was calculated, its intended effect always occurring.

 

However, Traya was a very hateful woman. Both the Sith and the Jedi were objects of her hate. Even the Force itself became something for her to hate. Those who relied on the Force were held in contempt, and objects of her condemnation. Her hate even extended to droids.

 

Traya also adhered to the some of the basic principles of the Sith. Survival of the fittest and standing on one's own two feet were heavily focused upon by the Sith Lord. However, Traya did not condone random acts of violence.

 

Darth Traya was also a masterful user of the Sith Dun Moch tactic.

 

Edge: They are both capable of Dun Moch and have manipulated events to strike at those they hate, but when it comes to a tactical mind, Darth Maul has the edge as he is a far more intuitive duelist.

 

Force Abilities:

 

Darth Maul:

 

Upon returning to the galaxy, Darth Maul found himself a more worthy vessel of the power of the dark side, thus many of his abilities were greatly enhanced, most notably his telekinetic abilities. He has shown the ability to move large shuttles and other objects, and has even used powerful Force Pushes to breach the Force Barriers of opposing Force users and proceed to toss them about. On the other hand, Maul’s own Force defenses were not capable of being breached by Force users of equal or greater power. Maul was also capable of very powerful Force Chokes.

 

Darth Maul also possessed the strong defenses against Force lightning and telepathy.

 

After his return, Maul showed far more willingness to use Force abilities in the middle of combat.

 

Darth Traya:

 

Darth Traya was a student and eventual master of many ancient and esoteric dark side techniques, and she developed her abilities for years.

 

Her abilities in telekinesis were profound. She was capable of manipulating three lightsabers telekinetically despite a drained connection to the Force, ripping through the defenses of opposing Force users to telekinetically assault them, and even using the deadly Force Crush.

 

She was a master of Force Drain, through which she drained the energy from three Jedi Council members with ease. She mastered both Force concealment and Force Stealth, using it to hide from others, even Jedi Council members.

 

She also displayed a mastery of telepathy and other mind control abilities. She was capable of contacting other Force users from great distances, even across the galaxy, she could mentally influence even other Force users, and she was a master of Drain Knowledge.

 

Most impressive, however, were her healing abilities. She was able to use the Force to bring back others from the brink of death, and even heal herself of mortal wounds. She could even use Dark Healing to kill others without raising a finger.

 

Edge: The edge here is obvious. Maul may have impressive telekinetic abilities, but Traya’s mastery of esoteric abilities marks her as a far superior Force user.

 

Verdict: Darth Maul is easily a superior duelist and dueling tactician, and would attempt to keep the battle a lightsaber duel. No doubt Traya would immediately realize how outmatched she is in a lightsaber duel and try her best to create a gap so that she can effectively use her Force abilities. Traya has more than the necessary tools to do this, and when she does, Maul has nothing other than impressive telekinesis. Traya would most likely be able to get away from Maul and destroy him with abilities against which there is no defense.

 

Darth Traya is the most likely victor.

[Beniboybling]

Edge: They are both capable of Dun Moch and have manipulated events to strike at those they hate, but when it comes to a tactical mind, Darth Maul has the edge as he is a far more intuitive duelist.

Really? Reaaaaallly?

 

Is not the sole reason for this conclusion simply a lack of demonstration on Traya's part? Especially given the fact that game mechanics made her physically incapable of applying such tactics?

 

I mean, in the end, Traya is more intelligent, more aware and more capable of manipulating the battefield - neither is she susceptible to taunts or any kind of mental manipulation, Force based or otherwise. Whereas Maul, while cunning, is angry and most importantly overwhelming arrogant.

I rest my case.

 

P.S. Excellent analysis. Nice to see Traya getting the respect she deserves in terms of lightsaber combat.

[Selenial]

is angry and most importantly overwhelming arrogant.

I rest my case.

 

Would you not be? Had you just bested a Jedi Master and Knight in single combat alone?

 

I mean come on, quite literally the only reason Kenobi made a jump like that was that the plot armor formed multiple stepping stones for him to clime up >.>

 

Also consider how Maul would have killed him? I dont think it was arrogance slashing for sparks, kenobi was hanging out of reach, it was a matter of time until he fell but Maul needed to see him fall, the sparks were an attempt at getting him to drop.

[Beniboybling]

Would you not be? Had you just bested a Jedi Master and Knight in single combat alone?

 

I mean come on, quite literally the only reason Kenobi made a jump like that was that the plot armor formed multiple stepping stones for him to clime up >.>

 

Also consider how Maul would have killed him? I dont think it was arrogance slashing for sparks, kenobi was hanging out of reach, it was a matter of time until he fell but Maul needed to see him fall, the sparks were an attempt at getting him to drop.

Would Traya have done so? No.

 

And he did the sparks twice then just watched himself get bisected.

[Selenial]

Would Traya have done so? No.

 

And he did the sparks twice then just watched himself get bisected.

 

Plot Armor.

>.>

 

 

Traya would have force blasted him down, or shocked him with lightning, but TPM maul can't really, or isnt strong enough to.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Selenial

[Aurbere]

Really? Reaaaaallly?

 

Is not the sole reason for this conclusion simply a lack of demonstration on Traya's part? Especially given the fact that game mechanics made her physically incapable of applying such tactics?

 

I mean, in the end, Traya is more intelligent, more aware and more capable of manipulating the battefield - neither is she susceptible to taunts or any kind of mental manipulation, Force based or otherwise. Whereas Maul, while cunning, is angry and most importantly overwhelming arrogant.

I rest my case.

 

P.S. Excellent analysis. Nice to see Traya getting the respect she deserves in terms of lightsaber combat.

 

I work with the information I have. There really isn't much else I can say.

 

Anyway, I'll let some more people comment on the result, then I'll put forth the idea for the next one.

[LadyKulvax]

Aurbere, please god post a genuine versus thread.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Aurbere, please god post a genuine versus thread.

 

This, please.

[Aurbere]

Aurbere, please god post a genuine versus thread.

 

Alright. I've decided to forgo the research process for Round 2 (because that could take months), so I'm going to go ahead and get the first match posted.

[Selenial]

I work with the information I have. There really isn't much else I can say.

 

Anyway, I'll let some more people comment on the result, then I'll put forth the idea for the next one.

 

Just to let it be noted, good analysis, thought it was very close...

Mind if i use this for the Kaggath?

[Aurbere]

Just to let it be noted, good analysis, thought it was very close...

Mind if i use this for the Kaggath?

 

Go ahead.

[Darkelefantos]

overwhelming arrogant.

 

To display his "overwhelming arrogance", you should look for a TCW example, since that's the Maul being used, and that one has a different mindset than the one cut in half in TPM.

 

Also, Kreia never shows signs of arrogance, does she?

Edited November 27, 2013 by Darkelefantos

[Aurbere]

OK. I have made a decision on the first match of Round 2 and I am in the process of getting that written. In the meantime, I will be adjusting brackets and matches (mostly Vader because he's going to breeze through at this point). Look for the first match on Dec. 1st.

[Beniboybling]

Also, Kreia never shows signs of arrogance, does she?

I'm not sure I see your point...

[Beniboybling]

I work with the information I have. There really isn't much else I can say.

 

Anyway, I'll let some more people comment on the result, then I'll put forth the idea for the next one.

Fair enough, but I'd at least deem them equal - especially given the fact that mentality goes beyond simple one's ability to apply tactics in battle. Oh and a little extract from Wookieepedia:

 

Though still an apprentice, Maul was convinced that he could defeat the entire Jedi Order—including the Jedi High Council—in their own Temple. Maul's hatred of the Jedi notwithstanding, his master cautioned him to guard against his pride. According to Sidious, Maul was a formidable warrior, but not a "one-being army." Maul was heavily prone to acts of gloating, despite his master's disapproval. His overconfidence was such that he revealed his true identity, his master, and the survival of the Sith to his target Alexi Garyn before killing him.

 

Whether he retained these traits upon his reemergence is admittedly questionable, but he did overestimate Kenobi again and decided to take on Darth Sidious than do the smart thing (run the hell away) without a second thought. Despite having first hand experience of his vastly superior ability.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Darkelefantos]

Whether he retained these traits upon his reemergence is admittedly questionable, but he did overestimate Kenobi again and decided to take on Darth Sidious than do the smart thing (run the hell away) without a second thought. Despite having first hand experience of his vastly superior ability.

 

Beni, you, as one of the keepers of the lore in this forum, should know very well that running away from Darth Sidious would have been even more pointless, considering Sidious' vastly superior ability

Also, I'm not sure overestimate is the word you're looking for, unless you did mean to say he thought Obi-Wan was stronger than he actually is. Which wouldn't make that much sense, all things considered.

 

That said, coming into this thread, I fully expected Mentality to be a draw, and was somewhat surprised. Not surprised by the end result, though.

 

EDIT:

On the extract you quoted, what's the reference for the part where it says he believes he can defeat even the High Council? I'd expect it to be Shadow Hunter, but I don't remember that being said there. I remember it saying he wanted to face someone of that caliber, though.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Darkelefantos

[Beniboybling]

Beni, you, as one of the keepers of the lore in this forum, should know very well that running away from Darth Sidious would have been even more pointless, considering Sidious' vastly superior ability

Also, I'm not sure overestimate is the word you're looking for, unless you did mean to say he thought Obi-Wan was stronger than he actually is. Which wouldn't make that much sense, all things considered.

 

That said, coming into this thread, I fully expected Mentality to be a draw, and was somewhat surprised. Not surprised by the end result, though.

 

EDIT:

On the extract you quoted, is that from the Star Wars wiki? If yes, what's the reference for the part where it says he believes he can defeat even the High Council? I'd expect it to be Shadow Hunter, but I don't remember that being said there. I remember it saying he wanted to face someone of that caliber, though.

While possible, one would think he'd at least try to run knowing first-hand just how powerful he is. Yet clearly he did not believe the alternative was certain death.

 

And yes I mean underestimate, heck he even asked the guy to surrender.

 

Concerning Wookieepedia's sources, its Darth Plagueis, which I have read and can confirm everything said is true. We do get quite a bit of insight into Maul's training and what not in that novel.

[Darkelefantos]

While possible, one would think he'd at least try to run knowing first-hand just how powerful he is. Yet clearly he did not believe the alternative was certain death.

 

And yes I mean underestimate, heck he even asked the guy to surrender.

 

Concerning Wookieepedia's sources, its Darth Plagueis, which I have read and can confirm everything said is true. We do get quite a bit of insight into Maul's training and what not in that novel.

 

Ah, tbh I don't remember Darth Plagueis that well. In Shadow Hunter, I believe it said he wanted to face someone such as Plo Koon. Although, I liked that book, should maybe...

 

Obi-Wan really spent most of his time losing vs Maul. During most of their fights, actually. While I think about it, Maul may be very arrogant, but it was never really unwarranted. He proceeded to kill Alexei, he had already defeated Obi-Wan (basically, that is).

 

About his fight with Sidious, well, he either believed that staying wasn't certain death (turns out he was right), or he believed that running wasn't an option. The most powerful being in existence is chasing him, and so are the Jedi. He either stays on Mandalore and fights, or he spends the rest of his life running away. And Maul never seemed to be the guy that would pick option two.

[Beniboybling]

Ah, tbh I don't remember Darth Plagueis that well. In Shadow Hunter, I believe it said he wanted to face someone such as Plo Koon. Although, I liked that book, should maybe...

 

Obi-Wan really spent most of his time losing vs Maul. During most of their fights, actually. While I think about it, Maul may be very arrogant, but it was never really unwarranted. He proceeded to kill Alexei, he had already defeated Obi-Wan (basically, that is).

 

About his fight with Sidious, well, he either believed that staying wasn't certain death (turns out he was right), or he believed that running wasn't an option. The most powerful being in existence is chasing him, and so are the Jedi. He either stays on Mandalore and fights, or he spends the rest of his life running away. And Maul never seemed to be the guy that would pick option two.

Well really I'd just looking for examples of Maul's arrogance still being there, the evidence certainly isn't overwhelming, but at the same time nothing really shows him not to be still arrogant. One would think theoretically he'd be more arrogant (and angry) given that he's grown stronger.

 

And while yes most of the time Maul's arrogance hasn't been a problem, that's only because he's been able to defeat his opponents. In this case however, his arrogance could definitely be exploited.

 

Traya might even perceive it as a shatterpoint.

[Darkelefantos]

Well really I'd just looking for examples of Maul's arrogance still being there, the evidence certainly isn't overwhelming, but at the same time nothing really shows him not to be still arrogant. One would think theoretically he'd be more arrogant (and angry) given that he's grown stronger.

 

And while yes most of the time Maul's arrogance hasn't been a problem, that's only because he's been able to defeat his opponents. In this case however, his arrogance could definitely be exploited.

 

Traya might even perceive it as a shatterpoint.

 

I don't think that particular Shatterpoint would even be relevant. Traya would definitely try to keep him outside of melee range, and maybe just defeat him instantly with a technique like Force Drain, at least as soon as it becomes obvious that he is her superior in Lightsaber combat. At that point, his arrogance would not be quite as much of a factor. Either she provokes him, and he somehow manages to successfully get into melee range to kill her (1% probability) or she uses a Force technique he couldn't have blocked anyway, so she wouldn't need an opening.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Darkelefantos

[Beniboybling]

I don't think that particular Shatterpoint would even be relevant. Traya would definitely try to keep him outside of melee range, and maybe just defeat him instantly with a technique like Force Drain, at least as soon as it becomes obvious that he is her superior in Lightsaber combat. At that point, his arrogance would not be quite as much of a factor. Either she provokes him, and he somehow manages to successfully get into melee range to kill her (1% probability) or she uses a Force technique he couldn't have blocked anyway, so she wouldn't need an opening.

True, true.