The most easy way to determine if the tank is a bad/dumb one

[Aurojiin]

Especially if that healer is Aurojiin. He will never get my guard.

You know I'd just click it off anyway.

[Punchy]

You know I'd just click it off anyway.

 

+1 for knowing the things that I know about you.

[Zamppa]

im laughing my *** off at that. a good tank can flip guards around during a fight at his discretion. if the DPS allow the tank a few seconds to begin his own threat generation rotation, instead of flying straight into battle the second we pull, then this is barely an issue. EVERY marauder thinks they are entitled to being guarded, and almost all of them are wrong

 

Marauder in same grade or better gear than the tank tends to steal aggro from the tank if the player of the marauder knows even the basic rotations for the current spec. Marauder with an augmented set of BH gear or better is ALWAYS entitled to get the guard in tier 1 HM FPs as no other dps class is going to do more dps than that marauder. As stated before guarding healers in tier 1 HM FPs is pointless. Mathematics and threat mechanics previously posted in this thread prove that.

 

Marauder/sentinel sure has one of the best aggrodumps in the game but it has a rather long 45 sec CD which makes it basically useable only once against every big group of thrash/silvers/golds and roughly twice against bosses. One really can't just spam it when one steals aggro from the tank. That's the main reason why tank should guard the marauder/sentinel, to give him/her the threat reduction so the marauder/sentinel can concentrate more on doing those best dps numbers in the game and less on popping aggrodumps and defensive tallents.

[JimmyTheCannon]

Marauder in same grade or better gear than the tank tends to steal aggro from the tank if the player of the marauder knows even the basic rotations for the current spec. Marauder with an augmented set of BH gear or better is ALWAYS entitled to get the guard in tier 1 HM FPs as no other dps class is going to do more dps than that marauder. As stated before guarding healers in tier 1 HM FPs is pointless. Mathematics and threat mechanics previously posted in this thread prove that.

 

Marauder/sentinel sure has one of the best aggrodumps in the game but it has a rather long 45 sec CD which makes it basically useable only once against every big group of thrash/silvers/golds and roughly twice against bosses. One really can't just spam it when one steals aggro from the tank. That's the main reason why tank should guard the marauder/sentinel, to give him/her the threat reduction so the marauder/sentinel can concentrate more on doing those best dps numbers in the game and less on popping aggrodumps and defensive tallents.

 

...EVERY aggro dump has a 45 second cooldown. That's not "rather long", that's normal.

 

DPS shouldn't need a threat drop more than once on a group of trash anyways, because - you're killing the little ones and not moving on to the golds until they're the only ones left, at which point the tank has solid aggro anyways. If you need to use Force Camo twice on a group of trash, you're doing it wrong.

[grallmate]

Marauder in same grade or better gear than the tank tends to steal aggro from the tank if the player of the marauder knows even the basic rotations for the current spec. Marauder with an augmented set of BH gear or better is ALWAYS entitled to get the guard in tier 1 HM FPs as no other dps class is going to do more dps than that marauder. As stated before guarding healers in tier 1 HM FPs is pointless. Mathematics and threat mechanics previously posted in this thread prove that.

 

Marauder/sentinel sure has one of the best aggrodumps in the game but it has a rather long 45 sec CD which makes it basically useable only once against every big group of thrash/silvers/golds and roughly twice against bosses. One really can't just spam it when one steals aggro from the tank. That's the main reason why tank should guard the marauder/sentinel, to give him/her the threat reduction so the marauder/sentinel can concentrate more on doing those best dps numbers in the game and less on popping aggrodumps and defensive tallents.

 

I've yet to come across a Marauder that needs that Guard more than a semi-competent Assault Vanguard.

 

While I agree that the best DPS is a well played Sentinel thanks to all the utility as well has high DPS numbers, they also attract the worst players that fail to capitalize on either aspect. Conversely, Assault VGs pump out amazing numbers but lack a threat drop. They have zero ramp up and are extremely bursty: a tanks worst nightmare.

 

Watchman Sentinels are a terrible choice for Guard, while they have high DPS they have a long ramp up AND an excellent threat drop. Combat Sentinels on the other hand are a reasonable choice thanks to their bursty nature but a their burst windows are predictable and if you hold through the first you should be good by the second.

[Zamppa]

I've yet to come across a Marauder that needs that Guard more than a semi-competent Assault Vanguard.

 

While I agree that the best DPS is a well played Sentinel thanks to all the utility as well has high DPS numbers, they also attract the worst players that fail to capitalize on either aspect. Conversely, Assault VGs pump out amazing numbers but lack a threat drop. They have zero ramp up and are extremely bursty: a tanks worst nightmare.

 

If there are vanguard and sentinel dps in the group with same level gear it may be a good thing to think if the tank should guard the vanguard then instead of the sentinel. It probably is also quite situational(=depends on the FP they are doing for example). The point still was not to compare the dps classes but to point out guarding healers in tier 1 HM FPs is pointless and useless.

[Kawabonga]

If there are vanguard and sentinel dps in the group with same level gear it may be a good thing to think if the tank should guard the vanguard then instead of the sentinel. It probably is also quite situational(=depends on the FP they are doing for example). The point still was not to compare the dps classes but to point out guarding healers in tier 1 HM FPs is pointless and useless.

 

Leaving the realm of FPs a second and passing to ops, my assassin doesn't lose aggro vs neither marauders nor PTs, and i raid with both in full 63s. I do have a guard on the PT when i raid though. Back to FPs, a well played assassin tank in black hole gear won't lose aggro to a marauder in black hole gear, unless that marauder is failing to kill the standards and strongs fast enough.

 

Just for the record everything said here doesn't apply to Kaon. Enemies in that FP reset threat way too often

[oleost]

As an assassin tank, I generally put the guard on a healer. Might as well put the guard on a healer if no one is going to pull threat, which should be the case if you are an assassin. Assassin tanks generate the most threat by a large amount.

 

Pretty much, I put the guard on whomever I think needs the most amount of damage reduction. That is usually the healer, because we want them to take the least amount of damage as possible, so they don't have to heal themselves as much. If for some reason someone is pulling threat off of me, I'll switch a guard to them. But that should not happen.

 

Many healers have WAY better self heals than other heals. So as a healer I dont mind taken damage.

[ChicagoBearsFan]

In a HM FP with lots of trash, the tank will be throwing out cursory attacks every GCD on a variety of targets to try to keep threat at least above healer level, while DPS kill weak/special to strong and require little if any healing. Hopefully the DPS are not retarded and are killing the right targets in order.

 

This ^ right here is a better determining factor of tank skill. It shows they know how agro works. I think every tank should roll a healer, it will help them better understand how agro works.

Having played a healer first, then rolling a tank has made me a better tank. I get many compliments from my healers (and even DPS) about my tanking and then I tell he it's cuz I was a healer first.

 

In regards to the guard skill. Having Played all the roles, but primarily healers and tank, I just don't see any real good point to guarding the healer for a few reasons.

 

-guard only has a limited range (15m if I recall corectly). Most healers don't stand in the middle of the fight. Sometimes the 15m is not a problem, but often I heal outside the range of guard so I can have a better view of the fight. Guard on a healer or a ranged DPS for that matter is maybe only working 50% of the time so it is largely wasted. Best to guard MDPS who will be standing near to the tank.

 

-contrary to what MANY tanks think guard does not split damage back to tank. This effect ONLY works in PVP and I am surprised at how many tanks are still under the impression that this effect is the same in PVE. In PVE guard only reduces agro generated and reduces damage by 5%. It is still a useful skill but understanding it goes a long way to utalizing it the best way possible.

 

-healers will *VERY RARELY* draw agro from mobs being attacked. Our agro is split between all mobs evenly so it is VERY difficult to rip away a mob from a tank or DPS. So why do we get attacked? All the mobs that "soft agro" on a pull initially go after the first attacker, but in reality their agro table is empty untill a healer throws a heal (which as mentioned is split between ALL mobs) so now those mobs immediately swarm the healer unless otherwise taunted of tagged by AOEs.

A good tank knows this and instead of simply beating on only 1 target he will use AOEs, taunts, or attack multiple targets to generate more agro on all the mobs therefore surpassing the healer's agro. Guarding a healer here does nothing to help with this as a little bit or a lot of agro on a mob's empty agro table is still agro for the healer. Only fix here is tanks or DPS need to be sure to generate agro on all mobs. The best solution is to have a RDPS or any DPS stand by the healer on initial pull and then jump the mobs attacking the healer.

 

-5% damage reduction is better spent on a MDPS. This small amount of damage reduction is over all trivial. In a well functioning group the healer SHOULD take minimal damage. After the tank, the MDPS should be the one taking the next most damage. This *will* depend largly on gear, player skill, and group makeup. But I simply state it as a rule of thumb. Smart healers know how to work around agro by using their agro dumps, defensive cool downs, LoS, and heals.

 

To sum it up I would rather have the guard on a MDPS, because they will be in range, because they are generating relevant agro, and they will likely be taking more damage than me as a healer.

 

So tanks... When in doubt, guard the MDPS first.

 

Is it ever OK to guard the healer? simply put, yes. But there are some determining factors.

I was in a HM FP the other day when a tank guarded me as the healer, I almost said something, then I looked at the group. The group consisted of geared Tank, healer, RDPS, and then a sentinel with 15k HP. There was no way that sent should pull agro, so i let it go. The damage reduction would be nice on the sent but let face it, they are so squishy 5% isn't really going to do much.

 

If your group is all RDPS or the MDPS are unlikely to pull agro then, sure, guard the healer if you want. In the end, I would almost always prefer the tank still throw guard on a DPS (even if ranged) as it is going to do very little for me healing. Several posters have made some valid points why it would no OK to guard the healer, but all things considered the benefit to guarding the DPS is always greater or at best, equal to guarding the healer.

 

Honestly, i'm to the point now that I don't really care if the tank even uses guard at all.

 

So while I agree that *who* you guard does not define a tank as skilled or unskilled, it does often hint at their understanding of the overall game. And to me it says "I'm not sure I can control agro so S*** is comming your way Mr. Healer". A tank that immediately throws guard on me in a FP is like a DPS who jumps in early, it its a little bit of a red flag but it is not an automatic tell-all of their skill.

Edited March 23, 2013 by ChicagoBearsFan

[RaineyDaze]

Let me re- iterate, as a healer I don't want or need your guard, it's wasted on me. Most of the time I will be out of range of your guard. I would rather the tank have agro or dps burning the mob down. If I' m getting attacked it's probably from a ranged mob outside of group. If it's a mele, unless there's more than 1 which means your not doing your job, I will simply stun and force lift it until team gets around to it. Why place guard on someone who is'nt in range to benefit from it?

 

Not telling you who to guard nor do I care if you guard anyone. Unless your a shadow who stealths past a group I can't get around or a tank that jumps past two other groups to attack one in rear or a DPS that doesn't follow kill order, you can rest assured I will dedicate my entire being to keeping you healthy and able to fight.

[Punchy]

This ^ right here is a better determining factor of tank skill. It shows they know how agro works. I think every tank should roll a healer, having played a healer first, then rolling a tank has made me a better tank. I get many compliments from my healers (and even DPS) about my tanking and then I tell he it's cuz I was a healer first.

 

...

 

So while I agree that *who* you guard does not define a tank as skilled or unskilled, it does often hint at their understanding of the overall game. A tank that immediately throws guard on me in a FP is like a DPS who jumps in early, it its a little bit of a red flag but it is not an automatic tell-all of their skill.

 

The guard range only applies the the split damage, which the tooltip states only applies to "incoming damage from enemy players". I'd like to hope most tanks can read a tooltip. The threat generation reduction and the damage reduction are unaffected by range. They only are if the guarded person distances the tank to such an extent where guard drops completely. At that point, it ceases to be a useful guard anyways.

 

The best solution to healers drawing aggro is to cry because you have either ignorant, oblivious or simply uncoordinated members in your group. A tank should hold aggro on strongs/elites/champions: the mobs that both hurt, and last long enough to warrant being actively tanked. Even strongs can largely be ignored depending on the trash pull. With healthpools of ~16k, it is not terribly difficult for a single DPS to make it fall over in a small amount of time.

 

The 5% mitigation is a bonus. In a few select fights you will guard a healer because of a combination of the damage reduction and the fact that aggro either means nothing or is trivial due to uptime (Dread Guards, Operator IX, Post-Phase One of TFB, EC Kephess (that one may be personal opinion)). However, guarding a healer in a HM FP is generally not the best use.

 

Guarding a ranged DPS is incredibly viable. If the choice is between a decently geared Commando and a Sentinel, I will pick the Commando. If there is an annoying Sentinel that doesn't understand what the purpose of Force Camo is in the early stages of a fight, then... meh. That's what taunts are for, right? Providing they manage to out-threat me.

 

As for the final statement, I'm a bit amused to be honest. At least you did clarify it wasn't an "automatic tell-all of their skill" - I would have jumped on that, being a DPS that initiates most HM FP fights before the tank. More runs than not, the tank defers to me to do it in the first place.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Punchy

[Kitru]

-guard only has a limited range (15m if I recall corectly). Most healers don't stand in the middle of the fight. Sometimes the 15m is not a problem, but often I heal outside the range of guard so I can have a better view of the fight. Guard on a healer or a ranged DPS for that matter is maybe only working 50% of the time so it is largely wasted.

 

That's not true. The only range restricted element of Guard is the only element that doesn't take place in PvE: the damage redirection. The 5% damage reduction and 25% reduced threat both have functionally infinite ranges (it's been tested out to something like 80m and the DR and threat reduction *still* both applied). In PvE, as long as you're in the same instance as the person you put Guard on, they're going to get the benefits of it.

 

Honestly, the reason that rDPS and healers *shouldn't* need Guard, at least from a threat generation standpoint, is because, as ranged characters, they should never be within the melee threat range of the target (4m from the center of the target's model). As such, they should always require 130% of the current target's threat to pull aggro whereas any melee that hugs the target too close (melee range for attacks is determined by measuring from the outside of the target's model whereas threat range is determined from the center, meaning that, if the melee is fighting at their maximum functional range, they should still be in melee for the purposes of their attacks but at range for the purposes of threat) will require only 110%. Ranged characters are just *way* less likely to pull threat from an outright mechanical standpoint so they shouldn't need Guard as much.

[ChicagoBearsFan]

That's not true. The only range restricted element of Guard is the only element that doesn't take place in PvE: the damage redirection. The 5% damage reduction and 25% reduced threat both have functionally infinite ranges (it's been tested out to something like 80m and the DR and threat reduction *still* both applied). In PvE, as long as you're in the same instance as the person you put Guard on, they're going to get the benefits .

 

OK, thank you. I stand corrected in that regard. I was always under the impression that all the effects of guard drop off as the "blue bubble" animation drops off in that range and reappears when you close the distance.

Edited March 23, 2013 by ChicagoBearsFan

[RaineyDaze]

^^ As do I.

[Sydexlic]

Yes, there is.

 

To elaborate. Nightmare Kephess can potentially gib a tank at close to full hp with one of his attacks. It's one of the few encounters were a strong emphasis should be made on tank effective health.

 

Effective health being a function of health pool after guaranteed mitigation is applied. Basically, Damage reduction modifying your max health. No matter your avoidance, unless the sum of which is 100%, it will fail at some time.

 

The attack in question is a series of 3 large hits. Each individual hit is not going to pressure a tanks health, but if by chance (a fairly low chance), all 3 attacks are not shielded, parried or missed, it can do almost the entire tanks health pool in damage. A tank in full avoidance gear, taking no high endurance options at all, will need to be at near full health to survive such an occurrence. A tank that has prioritised health a little more, even if it's just 2-3k more health, will survive a failed string of avoided attacks with health to spare. EH is all about planning for the worst case scenario.

 

Otherwise no, for any other content than tanks attempting NiM Kephess in EC, go balls out avoidance, EH is largely irrelevant. For those who do Nim Kephess, in particular timed runs with strongly emphasised repeatability of the encounter, you do definitely want to keep effective health as a gearing priority.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Sydexlic

[DinesenDK]

This threat is counter-productive... Why are we fighting eachother? Last time I checked it was a group based game, and not a game of "Look at how awesome I DPS, you must for sure do somehting wrong when I DPS this crazy"... Christ!

 

Well, take this to note: The biggest issue in PUGS are people who take everything for granted and expects that everybody has played since launch like themself, and for that reason and that reason alone, communication is not needed or worth spending time on, since the Tank is oviously a noob....

 

I put Guard on the healer every single time, for that simple reason that with out heals we all die alot faster. And Yes I should probably learn to play... I will.. If you learn to communicate, before, during, and after the FP - Thanks.

 

Sorry for bad grammar and lack of , and .

[RandomXChance]

A great example of what is being discussed occurred with me the other day on my newest tank while running SM D7 in groupfinder.

 

I wait until after the first or second pull to decide where to throw guard. If no DPS can pull off me, then may as well throw it on the healer just for the sake of it.

 

The first pull in D7 has the mobs of droids and the two turrets. By using KB and pull I nicely group up all the droids and keep threat on them all. Do the DPS attack the turrets? Of course not. The turrets end up on the healer. Second pull with the champ and two turrets. Once again the DPS ignore the turrets. The healer asks for guard. I say that the problem is that the DPS are attacking my targets and ignoring the weak enemies, so therefore guard will do very little but will put on them anyways. Healer says (seriously) "If you do not put guard on someone I will not heal you". Unbelievable. Normally I would vote kick someone with such a bad attitude, but since the DPS were lame as well, just bailed.

 

Aggro problems are not automatically a tanking problem. If only everyone understood the limitations of guard. As others have said, it simply lowers the amount of threat you are generating. If no one else is attacking that mob, how does guard help? If there are multiple ranged enemies spread out it is not possible for the tank to hold all of them. Finger pointing and whining changes nothing.

[Khevar]

This thread is counter-productive... Why are we fighting each other? Last time I checked it was a group based game, and not a game of "Look at how awesome I DPS, you must for sure do somehting wrong when I DPS this crazy"... Christ!

 

...

 

I put Guard on the healer every single time, for that simple reason that with out heals we all die alot faster. And Yes I should probably learn to play... I will.. If you learn to communicate, before, during, and after the FP - Thanks.

 

...

While anything on the forums can devolve into an argument, the reason why there is discussion on this subject is that threat mechanics are frequently not understood. Since threat is a key part of being a tank (you can't tank if nobody is attacking you) it behooves players to understand it.

 

A lack of understanding results in rote solutions that don't always work. I'm sorry to pick on you, but a case in point is your sentence above:

 

"I put Guard on the healer every single time, for that simple reason that without heals we all die alot faster."

 

Either you came to the conclusion by yourself, or (more likely) somebody told you to do so and it seemed like a good idea. And without understanding it, you adopted this rule. And your groups do fine, so "it works"

 

One of the points that have been made in this thread is that during trash fights in this game, it doesn't actually matter who you guard, or even if you don't guard at all.

 

I tested this when my Shadow Tank went 50. For a while, every flashpoint I ran with my guild I didn't guard anyone, and we were all fine. So please understand I'm not criticizing you for guarding the healer. I'm criticizing you for not understanding what is happening when you guard the healer -- you get a 5% damage reduction, and irrelevant threat reduction on insignificant healing threat.

 

If you want to guard the healer for the 5% dr, or guard the healer because it doesn't matter, or guard the healer because it will quiet the people in the pug who are whinging about it, go right ahead.

 

But if you are guarding the healer because, "it will keep the healer alive by lowering his/her threat" than I recommend you go back up this thread and read why that is faulty thinking. And here's why:

 

If you are having problems with the healer dying, and think you're going to solve it by guarding the healer instead of fixing the ACTUAL reason the healer is dying, you won't fix anything.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Khevar

[DakoHawk]

*easiest

[sumuji]

The most easy way to determine if DPS doesn't play tanks. They assume I inspect every piece of gear on every member and then further assume that they kill stuff in the proper order and not bang on the strongest stuff while they healer takes the brunt of the lower stuff.

 

It's easier to guard the healer initially and then move it around accordingly. In a PUG that's the best way to roll because nobody knows who you are. And playing a healer as well I can certainly confirm that I end up being the focus of too many mobs a lot of times in a PUG HM.

Edited March 24, 2013 by sumuji

[JimmyTheCannon]

The most easy way to determine if DPS doesn't play tanks. They assume I inspect every piece of gear on every member and then further assume that they kill stuff in the proper order and not bang on the strongest stuff while they healer takes the brunt of the lower stuff.

 

It's easier to guard the healer initially and then move it around accordingly. In a PUG that's the best way to roll because nobody knows who you are. And playing a healer as well I can certainly confirm that I end up being the focus of too many mobs a lot of times in a PUG HM.

 

^ this exactly.

[DinesenDK]

Either you came to the conclusion by yourself, or (more likely) somebody told you to do so and it seemed like a good idea. And without understanding it, you adopted this rule. And your groups do fine, so "it works"

I can accept you think I've adopted this, rather from thinking myself, I can live with that. I've played MMOs since Galaxies, and have been around about a handfull of games, and believe I've come to understand how Threat works, so I don't understand why you try to twist my words into something else when I already told you why I put Guard on the Healer.

 

I thought this threat was about OP going mad over not getting the attention he think he is entitled to because of his outstanding DPS... My bad.

 

Again, its a group based game, we should all learn to play our roles. DPS is often considered to be the easiest part, but im sure that we both can agree on that it is no easier, then Tanking mobs, or Healing the group members, regardless of who has guard.

 

With a small chance of repeating myself, my overall point was simply that with some communication the PUGS would succes much more often, and people wouldn't be tearing of eachothers heads during FPs = overall better experience while doing PUGs.

Edited March 24, 2013 by DinesenDK

[Khevar]

I can accept you think I've adopted this, rather from thinking myself, I can live with that. I've played MMOs since Galaxies, and have been around about a handfull of games, and believe I've come to understand how Threat works, so I don't understand why you try to twist my words into something else when I already told you why I put Guard on the Healer.

 

...

Hmm. My assumption came of this part of your first post:

I put Guard on the healer every single time, for that simple reason that with out heals we all die alot faster. And Yes I should probably learn to play.

I inferred that "I should probably learn to play" meant you had inexperience.

 

Let me as you something, just so I understand. You say, "I put Guard on the healer every single time, for that simple reason that without heals we all die a lot faster"

 

Assuming that "without heals" means the healer is dying, how is putting Guard on the healer preventing the healer from dying, in your experience?

[DinesenDK]

Assuming that "without heals" means the healer is dying, how is putting Guard on the healer preventing the healer from dying, in your experience?

Assuming is never good, however sorry for misleading or my bad writing, and I my sarcasme that not alwaysshows that well as text.

 

When you're assuming the ovious, then ofcause you're right. The healer dies even with guard on him. But in my experience he dies slower, and that helps the group to stay alive longer, which I find way more important to finish a FP then letting a DPS have it and he gets in a few more bashes in before we all are destroyed.

[slafko]

I don't know how to put this in simpler terms but - do not guard the healer.