I'm pretty sure that sentinel had to burn some serious *** money to medpacks while leveling if (s)he used them to recover also out of combat

Well my main is a dark sided sith pureblood marauder so what do you think?

The only problem is that the patch is 2,4 GB big and it will take "some" hours to download, thanks to my "not so fast" connection Anyways, it would be so much fun and a big relief to get an official announcement from BW about the issue. Do we need to get "an invitation mail" to gain the early access to Makeb or is everyone who purchased the expansion before 7th of January automatically allowed in even without an email? I pre-purchased 25th of December as I already said and if I'm not allowed in today I definitely will start breaking things...

Same here, No email. I purchased the expansion 25th December and my account page says it has been registered that same day. I'm downloading the update now...I sure hope BW/EA has not messed up...

I dinged 50 with my arsenal merc just a week ago and leveled from 1 to 50 with Mako with no problem. Mako's personal story running at the side is also fun to do while leveling.

If there are vanguard and sentinel dps in the group with same level gear it may be a good thing to think if the tank should guard the vanguard then instead of the sentinel. It probably is also quite situational(=depends on the FP they are doing for example). The point still was not to compare the dps classes but to point out guarding healers in tier 1 HM FPs is pointless and useless.

Marauder in same grade or better gear than the tank tends to steal aggro from the tank if the player of the marauder knows even the basic rotations for the current spec. Marauder with an augmented set of BH gear or better is ALWAYS entitled to get the guard in tier 1 HM FPs as no other dps class is going to do more dps than that marauder. As stated before guarding healers in tier 1 HM FPs is pointless. Mathematics and threat mechanics previously posted in this thread prove that. Marauder/sentinel sure has one of the best aggrodumps in the game but it has a rather long 45 sec CD which makes it basically useable only once against every big group of thrash/silvers/golds and roughly twice against bosses. One really can't just spam it when one steals aggro from the tank. That's the main reason why tank should guard the marauder/sentinel, to give him/her the threat reduction so the marauder/sentinel can concentrate more on doing those best dps numbers in the game and less on popping aggrodumps and defensive tallents.

I just love the outlooks of my tuned BH Foestopper armorsets to even consider using those ugly looking Tionese-Rakata pieces!

Oh I have asked the guard oh so many times(you would have known this if you had actually read my former posts...)! The only problem is that 8 times out of 10 I get the generic answer from the tank "I will guard the healer, because his/her survival is the most essential to the group to succeed, I have guarded healers since lauch..." and when I politely explain the guard and threath mechanics I sometimes get the guard but most times not...And then the healer has to work his/her *** out to heal me as I tend to get more aggro than the tank...And that results the FP to take longer and increases the possibilities of unnecessary deaths...Only because the tank does not actually know his/her class, threat mechanics and guard mechanics...

Yeah maybe I'm too well geared then as I tend to get aggro too often. Catching threat every now and then is not the real problem but the fact tanks have some serious problems to take aggro back. I don't know if they just don't notice they have lost aggro or what but too often it takes too much time from then to take it back and the healer has to work too much to heal the tank and me during boss fights. I of course use Force Camouflage to dump my aggro when needed but it has 45 sec CD so it can't be used all the time. I do daily HMs in PuGs because it suits my schedule. There often aren't too many guildies around when I'm doing my dailies so PuGs are the most suitable solution. Honestly my own char does not need BH gear anymore but I still want to get few more BH pieces for my main companion for the expansion which is the main reason for me to do daily HMs. I also have used hundreds of hours to level and gear my marauder so I want to use the char too.

Ahaha, you could not be more wrong, buddy! I have to tune down my dpsing often, way too often. I have pretty much minmaxed half 63-half61-fully augmented marauder and after getting my char pretty much geared as well as I wanted I haven't enjoyed playing it too much anymore because I constantly have to tune down my dps and use Force Comouflage to dump aggro and have a pause from the fight. Just because even decently geared tanks can't hold aggro. I tend to steal aggro from the tank pretty much against any boss in Tier 1 HMs. I don't know if it's because the PuG tanks are bad or what but that's just the way it is. So please, next time you post, don't assume so much but read what people have told you. I actually have explained that ^^ same thing in this thread THREE(3!) times now because people are too lazy or ignorant to read and yell at me assuming they know me and my character. It's also hilarious to notice how many people still refuse to understand the guarding mechanics and threat mechanics even though some very helpful people have put the mechanics and mathematics into this thread for everyone to see and read. Maybe they just don't understand simple mathematics and what they have read...Or maybe they think they are "too good" and "elitist" to admit they were wrong...

The only problem is the aggro dumps have a rather long CD, marauder/sentinel has 45 sec CD on Force Camouflage. And trust me, I do have to use it quite often because...well bad tanks who guard the healer... I also laugh at your "I'm a tank, I'm priceless"-attitude I tell you a secret: I have TANKED several tier 1 HM bosses from 50 % and even above with my mara because the tanks have been dumb enough to get themselves killed. Also SYDEXLIC, thank you for posting those facts in an easy enough form for even tanks to understand

Just did my Daily HM in a PuG group. 25,5k hp Assassin tank could not keep aggro of me in Kaon even though s/he clearly knew how to play the class, not even with guard on me. It just seems my marauder does so awesome dps numbers when I give my best. S/he also was NOT a bad/dumb one as s/he gave me the guard right at the start without me even asking I still think guarding healers in tier 1 HMs is a total waste. When the tank guards the highest dps who knows kill orders the healer does not even need to heal himself/herself but only the tank and occasionally dps. When the tank guards the healer, the healer has to heal the tank and the dps who constantly steal aggro from the tank. I think most healers find the first option easier and more fun...

Don't Choke into your laugh...(Let's see if you get the meaning...choke you know...) I play half 63-half61-fully augmented marauder and I just happened to notice during the last few months that be it a jugg tank, assassin or powertech, they all have big problems to keep aggro off me when I put up my full dps-numbers. With guard on me the HMs go much more fluently as the healer does not have to concentrate on healing me and the tank but mainly only the tank. I also happen to know rotations and kill orders so the healer does not need to heal himself/herself too much. There are many tanks around who still refuse to give me the guard and I sometimes ever get private whispers after the run from healers like "I wish he would have given you the guard...". When I don't get the guard even after polite explanation I just tune down my dps. The run takes longer but it was purely the tank's choice. Healers don't need guard in tier 1 HMs if the tank knows how to keep aggro and the 2 dps know the kill orders. Of course there are people who aren't too good in MMOs, newcomers etc when guarding the healer and explaining things is a good thing but when the group is formed from skilled players who claim to know how to play their class putting guard on healer is waisting the guard which makes the healer's work more hard because s/he has to heal the tank and me.

If the tank automatically puts the guard on the healer even though there are high end geared marauders/sentinels in the group in tier 1 HM FPs s/he is a bad tank. If the tank refuses to give the guard to the said marauder/sentinel even after politely explained there's no need to guard healers in tier 1 HMs and guarding the highest dps(usually mara/sent) makes the FP go faster and easier for everyone the tank is also a dumb one. I can't even remember when I would have gotten the guard in a PuG HM FP group without asking it first even though I do Daily HMs in PuG almost daily basis. The tank that made me finally to put this little rant online was something pretty awful too: he was not able to use his 23,5k hp jugg tank to keep aggro off from a 19k hp merc healer in Black Talon HM even with the guard on the healer...

Just bringing my two cents to the topic now that I have something to tell you I was running my daily HM and the Foundry popped out also the group seemed to be nicely geared so in we go. At the first conversation running in the background I asked for the Jugg tank if he could guard my BH marauder and I got the guard although the around BH geared sorc healer started to whine loundly and continously he would absolutely need the guard. The tank left the guard on me still and in we went but the healer let the tank to die against the first groups of thrash there and went on aggroing the groups first and did not care to heal the tank. The tank asked the healer to play nicely but he refused which made the tank to leave before the first boss. After that we had a verbal "fight" with the healer who was really acting and behaving like a douche. He insisted "he is so damn awesome with his heals that he always needs guard because he creates so much aggro...And his guild's tanks always guard on him!" I really had to laugh at him and I let him know how hilarious he sounded. When GF popped us a new tank the healer got his guard then. The "fun" did not stop there though! From the first boss to HK he was not healing me at all because "my attitude was rubbish" Well I just killed normals on those groups then and let the others aggro and kill the silvers and golds. I also let them know during the convo with HK-47 that I will only kill adds during the fight as I won't get healed. Suddenly the mood for the healer changed and he stated "oh okey then, get over it and lets just do this" Well we finished Foundry rather nicely but my ignore-list still got one new name onto it...

I still stick with my opinnion: Rage requires specific talents to be used in rather certain order. Annihilation on the other hand has a little more chances and variations. Of course every spec has its own main talents to use but anyway. And again removing the autocrit from Smash would make it hit as hard as it hits now too rarely, small boost to other single target talents in the spec is not good enough if that is done. Again if they tuned down the Force Crit multiplier, lets say, maybe 10-15 % that would make buffed smash to hit aprox. 1000 dmg less than it does now. In addition they indeed should add more dmg to Crush, Choke, Scream and maybe Vicious Slash and possibly to Vicious Throw to make the rotation of the spec more versatile and offer more choices. Removing autocrit from Smash would destroy Rage spec both in PvE and in PvP.

Annihilate probably suffers the lack of burst damage because of its potential self heals which boosts its survival some bit. I'm not completely sure if devs thought it like this but it sounds like the reasonable solution and explanation. 15 seconds or even a bit more is often a rather long time, atleast in PvP environment. I still think buffed smash takes long enough time to be more devestating attack than annihilation. Of course that's only my opinnion. Annihilation spec has more choices to use in its rotation as Annihilate does not require so much specific tallents to use as Rage spec requires. And again that's only my opinnion. I don't think nerfing the autocrit from Rage would be a good thing as fully optimized Rage maras have some above 30 % crit chance(+ the possible class buff) so roughly 2/3 times of using their strongest move it would only hit HALFLY as hard(Rage maras have ~100 % Force crit multiplier so taking off the autocrit would make "buffed smash" to hit halfly as hard as it hits now 2/3 of the times as non-crit smash only does 1/2 of the damage compared to crit). This would totally nerf down the spec but if the devs wanted to tune down smash dps and put in some more single target dps they could tune down some of the skill on the second top line of the skill tree which buffs up Force crit multiplier and put some dps boost into Scream or some other single target attack.

Yes it is not the easiest to counter in PvP but it's still far from OP as some people here have been complaining. Every spec has its highs and downs and every spec has something the opponent has to be careful against. Again, if a Rage Mara succeeds to hit 5 opponents in PvP with 6k with their Smash the opponents are doing something terribly wrong by sitting 5 metres away from their teammates. Annihilation usually also has some bleeding DoTs on at the same time when using Annihilate too so we actually just can't compare only Annihilate and Smash here and all DoT-specs have less burst when compared to AoE-specs or single target burst specs. That rotation is good BUT Frenzy has over 2 minute CD(depending on what points you put into other trees after 31 points in Rage tree), Berserk needs 30 fury and building it up takes time, Charge has a CD and 10-30 metre range, Crush has over 10 sec cooldown, Obliterate has a similar CD too. Building up shockwave is not difficult but as you can see it's very highly dependable on talents with over 10 sec CDs or Berserk which requires building up fury by using attacking tallents. It's highly situational how quickly one can get new buffed smash going after the last one, because of those CDs. I'm not saying here Rage spec could not be tuned a bit in 1.7/expansion but I think Smash here is working rather nicely and is far from OP so tuning it down too much would break the spec and make it useless in many situations. I agree taking maybe 1k damage off from Smash and adding it into Scream and possibly buffing up Ravage and maybe some other pure single target attacks could balance the spec a bit rather nicely.

I find this rather amusing aswell as I have already TWICE stated here why buffed smash hits bigger numbers than annihilate and still some people refuse to accept and/or understand it. Even though it's a very simple explanation and simple logic: building up buffed smash takes more time and rage/fury than using annihilate and even so Smash does not hit that much harder than annihilate when buffed up.

It seems reasonable conversation is impossible with you as you start shouting and calling other people names when they aren't agreeing with you. Also you still don't bring up anything serious to improve Rage spec but only some random bull...So I'm going to continue my /ignore on you.

I'm not interested in how you cordinate in your WarZones. If your cordination and success in warzones are that highly dependable about how much Rage spec maras hit with their smash it's kinda hilarious! Many people with different classes have said here they can manage and contain Rage maras quite well and that the spec is not OP when people know how to play against it. I have noticed the same thing even though I'm mostly PvE-player who does maybe 2-3 WZs/week just because PVP in this game is a boring joke anyway: every time people see my mara sorcs just stun me and run away and other classes use stun+stealth to escape. Although when I rarely find a player who is willing to actually fight me I notice my Rage spec is not anything OP which would give me an easy kill! Yes it helps me to kill the other one more often than s/he kills me, but nothing what I would say OP. Marauders are wanted in WZs/Ops and stuff as they are the best dps class in the game because they are the only melee class designed for dps. It's just that simple as every other class has a chance to spec also as a healer or tank and do combospecs. I see it's your problem to see the reality even though many people here in this thread have said they have no trouble with Rage mara and they can survive against it. I have also told you TWICE already why Rage's Smash is more powerful than the other 2 31 point talents, because building the buffed smash up takes more rage and time than the other 2 31 point talents and still you don't seem to understand or recognize this. I also want to say Rage is a very good spec for end game PvE-content. Of course there are few fights Carnage or Annihilation are better but overall Rage is as good as the others and there are several places where Rage is better than the others. I'm saying this about PvE because I hope you understand Rage spec would be nerfed to the point of quite total uselessness in PvE if the smash was nerfed down, at that point using Rage in any PvE end game environment would be totally useless. I have now made all my points and in return you have made yours which mainly are "I think Rage mara is OP, clunky and boring...Nerf, nerf, neeeerf!" when others have told you it is not OP when one knows how to deal with it. You also have not given us any options how you would make Rage spec "better" or "less OP and clunky" even though someone just asked you to do so on the latter page so I'm going to rest my case here and ignore your future whines before you actually come up with some concrete suggestions that would actually work in reality also in PvE-environment without making Rage significantly weaker when compared to Annihilation and Carnage. Until then /ignore.

I said "Obliterate+ Force Crush demand 6 rage". Didn't you notice the +-mark there? I never said Crush demanded 6 rage. And what comes to the other questions, yes Rage Mara gets quite a lot of rage and fury but building it up still takes time! It's far from "insta hit this and then insta Smash" as you are describing it. One has to use a lot of talents to build up 30 fury OR several rage demanding talents with CDs to build up the buffed Smash. Either of those demand more rage and time compared to Annihilate and Massacre which are the 2 other 31 point tallents. That's why buffed Smash hits harder because it demands other skills to be used to get it, Annihilate and Massacre do not. That's a very simple thing and I repeat myself again when I say Smash has a very limited AoE-range so it's completely your and your teammates' fault if a Rage Mara gets you all with one Smash. Rage spec would be totally useless if buffed Smash hit with the same amount as Annihilate and Massacre do because it needs more time and building to get it buffed. In PVP Rage Mara usually smashes only 1-2 targets a time so speaking about "OP AoE-attack" is complete bull, if the mara hits more targets it's again because of your poor positioning. Rage mara is completely okey as it is! I already compared the three builds in my latter post and brought up Annihilation lacks some burst because of its self heals and Carnage lacks AoE because of its single target burst. Rage lacks self heals(=has lover survivability than Annihilation) and lacks single target damage and burst when compared to Carnage. Rage instead has slowing and controlling powers with more powerful Choke(with no pushback) and with Crush which also build up a powerful close quarter small area Smash over time which is slightly more powerful than Annihilate and Massacre because it demands more time and rage to be built up. I find it amusing that most of you don't understand these mechanics even though I have already explained them to you several times.

This topic is getting more and more ridiculous by the day Sith Marauder is the only melee class concentrated only on damage so of course it will do the most damage numbers, that is clear. There are three completely different builds for this and each one has it own pros and cons: 1) Annihilation is based on DoTs and has some small self heals, but the downside is the smallest burst damage of the three. 2) Carnage has the biggest burts for single target but lacks the AoE/multitarget damage. 3) Rage has one big AoE/multitarget attack but has no self heals or as big single target burst as Carnage has and the big AoE-hit has to be build up with fury or other tallents which takes time. Yes Rage probably does the biggest dps numbers with buffed up smash but please remember one has to build up fury for it or use Charge/Obliterate AND Force Crush/Force Choke. Obliterate + Force Crush demand 6 rage, Choke has 60s CD and Rage spec can only use Charge from 10-30 metres away from target so building up the buffed smash takes time when Annihilation and Carnage have shorter CD and less rage demanding 31 point talents. I see many people whining "why does Rage's smash hit so hard against 5 enemies, nerf nerf nerf!" but Smash has a rather limited area of effect for those 5 targets! If people are hugging their teammates and let Rage marauder to charge in and hit with buffed smash it's THEIR poor positioning, not smash's overpoweredness. Rage is not overpowered, but most people whining about it are bad players who don't know how to deal with it.

I think I have to quote myself again to let people know what's the thing with rage marauders nowadays ^^ Bad players whine because the rage marauders know their classes better and kill them! End of story, move along, nothing more to see here!