The most easy way to determine if the tank is a bad/dumb one

[SWGEvictee]

Guard should be put on whoever shows the most need for it in any particular run. If the DPS is allowing mobs to jump the healer then guard the healer so they can live till the mobs get rounded up again. If a particular dps is constantly getting hit and taking damage guard them. Tactics are fluid or they should be. Anyone going into a FP with only one way to proceed is setting themselves up for failure.

 

On a side note. DPS if you notice you are constantly pulling agro off the Tank and you do nothing other than yell for guard and keep snaging agro you are a bad DPS. Everyone needs to work with the team to make an optimal group.

[Kawabonga]

Don't Choke into your laugh...(Let's see if you get the meaning...choke you know...)

 

I play half 63-half61-fully augmented marauder and I just happened to notice during the last few months that be it a jugg tank, assassin or powertech, they all have big problems to keep aggro off me when I put up my full dps-numbers. With guard on me the HMs go much more fluently as the healer does not have to concentrate on healing me and the tank but mainly only the tank. I also happen to know rotations and kill orders so the healer does not need to heal himself/herself too much. There are many tanks around who still refuse to give me the guard and I sometimes ever get private whispers after the run from healers like "I wish he would have given you the guard...". When I don't get the guard even after polite explanation I just tune down my dps. The run takes longer but it was purely the tank's choice.

 

Healers don't need guard in tier 1 HMs if the tank knows how to keep aggro and the 2 dps know the kill orders. Of course there are people who aren't too good in MMOs, newcomers etc when guarding the healer and explaining things is a good thing but when the group is formed from skilled players who claim to know how to play their class putting guard on healer is waisting the guard which makes the healer's work more hard because s/he has to heal the tank and me.

 

I play a full 63 fully augmented tank, what's your point? No one needs a guard if the tank know how to keep aggro. Guarding the healer is just an extra precaution. If dps are doing their job well and the tank knows what he's doing dps don't need guard. The only exception could be PT that doesn't have an aggro dump, but still with a good tank it's still not a problem.

 

If the tank is no good AND tremendously undergeared guard won't matter anyway... i took aggro on my mara while camouflaged and guarded, and still the guard is better off on the healer... Dead healer is worse than dead dps. Not to mention that healers have a harder time healing themselves because of pushback

 

On a side note... i didn't get the meaning of that choke

Edited March 16, 2013 by Kawabonga

[Zamppa]

No one needs a guard if the tank know how to keep aggro. Guarding the healer is just an extra precaution. If dps are doing their job well and the tank knows what he's doing dps don't need guard. The only exception could be PT that doesn't have an aggro dump, but still with a good tank it's still not a problem.

 

Just did my Daily HM in a PuG group. 25,5k hp Assassin tank could not keep aggro of me in Kaon even though s/he clearly knew how to play the class, not even with guard on me. It just seems my marauder does so awesome dps numbers when I give my best. S/he also was NOT a bad/dumb one as s/he gave me the guard right at the start without me even asking

 

I still think guarding healers in tier 1 HMs is a total waste. When the tank guards the highest dps who knows kill orders the healer does not even need to heal himself/herself but only the tank and occasionally dps. When the tank guards the healer, the healer has to heal the tank and the dps who constantly steal aggro from the tank. I think most healers find the first option easier and more fun...

[Goare]

Just did my Daily HM in a PuG group. 25,5k hp Assassin tank could not keep aggro of me in Kaon even though s/he clearly knew how to play the class, not even with guard on me. It just seems my marauder does so awesome dps numbers when I give my best. S/he also was NOT a bad/dumb one as s/he gave me the guard right at the start without me even asking

 

I still think guarding healers in tier 1 HMs is a total waste. When the tank guards the highest dps who knows kill orders the healer does not even need to heal himself/herself but only the tank and occasionally dps. When the tank guards the healer, the healer has to heal the tank and the dps who constantly steal aggro from the tank. I think most healers find the first option easier and more fun...

 

This thread is amusing. This game is not hard - I took a 9 month break and tanked fine in Rakata vs BIS 63's on both guardian and shadow. Pretty much comes down to skill of group. The reason to put guard on the healer is that in trash pulls in HM FP's they generate threat on every mob when they heal anyone. Is it required? No.

 

Generally speaking, if you think you're ripping agro off the tank, its because you're hitting a target the tank isn't focused on. Single target agro management in this game is a joke with taunt fluff. In a HM FP with lots of trash, the tank will be throwing out cursory attacks every GCD on a variety of targets to try to keep threat at least above healer level, while DPS kill weak/special to strong and require little if any healing. Hopefully the DPS are not retarded and are killing the right targets in order - if a pug DPS jumps at a gold first, I'll ignore it and let them tank it. Enjoy buddy. After your rez we can talk about kill order.

 

If you're running into a tank that can't keep threat on a boss that doesn't have some special agro mechanism, that's no bueno.

 

If the tank is no good AND tremendously undergeared guard won't matter anyway... i took aggro on my mara while camouflaged and guarded, and still the guard is better off on the healer... Dead healer is worse than dead dps. Not to mention that healers have a harder time healing themselves because of pushback

 

Also this. DPS get plenty of cooldowns to avoid damage and buy time. Healers have a tougher time buying time when they're getting hammered, especially since they build threat on *everything* by default. If you want to be safe on trash pulls, guard the healer. Dumb DPS is, unfortunately, the standard in this game.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Goare

[Gwence]

I always guard whichever dps has the higher primary stat in fps, or pug ops, if it becomes clear someone else is better dps I switch but it's usually pretty apparent.

 

I dont think I've ever put guard on a healer before, it makes no sense. They generate next to no threat, and they won't even get the damage reduction unless they stay fairly close to you, like 10m or something.

 

only time a healer has agro usually is when a pack of mobs is pulled and there's some ranaged mobs that havent been hit yet cuz they're out from the rest of the pack, then when healer heals yes of course they will be on the healer, but guard won't change that at all, and as soon as someone goes and hits those mobs 1 time they will be off the healer.

[Kawabonga]

Just did my Daily HM in a PuG group. 25,5k hp Assassin tank could not keep aggro of me in Kaon even though s/he clearly knew how to play the class, not even with guard on me. It just seems my marauder does so awesome dps numbers when I give my best. S/he also was NOT a bad/dumb one as s/he gave me the guard right at the start without me even asking

 

I still think guarding healers in tier 1 HMs is a total waste. When the tank guards the highest dps who knows kill orders the healer does not even need to heal himself/herself but only the tank and occasionally dps. When the tank guards the healer, the healer has to heal the tank and the dps who constantly steal aggro from the tank. I think most healers find the first option easier and more fun...

 

Kaon doesn't really count... every single enemy in that FP doesn't give a damn about threat meters, you're bound to get hit on all encounters at least enough to frustrate the healer

[jasonthelamb]

I like when people dont guard my Jugg DPS in Flashpoints, at which point I probably pull off 4-5 times a fight.

[Panzerfire]

Hmm,

 

All standpoints on this topic have been expressed pretty much.

I would say it's best to guard nobody since that will make it easier to practice holding aggro in preparation of 8/16 man ops. And if you want to slack then guard a healer, no amount of guarding will help you against a dps who wants to pull aggro or a tank who doesn't want to do anything but a single aoe taunt on each pack.

[RandomXChance]

I love seeing in these threads how DPS post like it is a measure of their awesomeness that they pull threat, Running NM EC on a full 63 geared Assassin with 2 63 geared maruaders and a threat pull is extremely rare.

 

If you are regularly pulling, then either the tank is weak or you are a problem DPS. We make jokes about people pulling from the tank, but in the long run it really is a failure if the tank AND the DPS. It is not a mark of how ****** a DPS you are, I know that on my 63 geared merc, if I pop my relic and adrenal and launch all my best attacks and get some crits, I will pull. That is not a failure of the tank, it is mine as a DPS.

 

Guard is very overvalued. The damage reduction is minimal and threat reduction irrelevant if the tank is on their game. Give it a rest.

 

Instead of spending so much time focusing on the real/perceived problems of other players,elevate your own.

[Sydexlic]

SO MUCH MISINFORMATION! STOP GUARDING HEALERS.

 

Threat generation works thusly;

 

DPS : Builds threat at a ratio of 1 threat per 1 damage. A 3000 damage hit will generate exactly 3000 threat on the target.

 

TANKS : Generate threat at a 2:1 ratio. A 3000 damage hit will generate exactly 6000 threat, before modifiers. Any ability marked as generating additional threat will generate more than 2:1.

 

HEALS : Generate threat at a 0.5 : 1 ratio. A 3000 point heal will generate exactly 1500 threat. Additionally, this threat is divided equally among ALL creatures who current have the healer on their threat table. That same 3000 point heal will generate 300 threat to every mob in a 5 mob pull.

 

Guard and you : What does this all mean? It means that you only have to look at a mob sternly to ensure it will ignore your healer. If anything is hitting the healer it means 1 of 2 things. The tank is horrible and isn't doing their job properly or the DPS is similarly horrible and not killing weaks and strongs before finally killing any elites and champions. Guard or no guard, your healer will still be getting hit in either situation.

 

If you accept that you and the DPS with you are utterly horrible at the game and are looking for something to mitigate your failure, then by all means, guard the healer, that 5% damage reduction will at least be serving some good. Otherwise, guard the DPS.

[dcgregorya]

How about you use the agro dump you have?

 

This. We should retitle this to "how you know your DPS is dumb"...they demand a guard instead of just using their aggro dumps.

 

Personally I wait to see who deals more damage before tossing a guard up and often, if the DPS is dumb, I won't guard them at all. They can wipe on the trash while me and the healer finish it off.

Edited March 17, 2013 by dcgregorya

[Zamppa]

This. We should retitle this to "how you know your DPS is dumb"...they demand a guard instead of just using their aggro dumps.

 

Personally I wait to see who deals more damage before tossing a guard up and often, if the DPS is dumb, I won't guard them at all. They can wipe on the trash while me and the healer finish it off.

 

The only problem is the aggro dumps have a rather long CD, marauder/sentinel has 45 sec CD on Force Camouflage. And trust me, I do have to use it quite often because...well bad tanks who guard the healer...

 

I also laugh at your "I'm a tank, I'm priceless"-attitude I tell you a secret: I have TANKED several tier 1 HM bosses from 50 % and even above with my mara because the tanks have been dumb enough to get themselves killed.

 

Also SYDEXLIC, thank you for posting those facts in an easy enough form for even tanks to understand

Edited March 17, 2013 by Zamppa

[Aurojiin]

Just did my Daily HM in a PuG group. 25,5k hp Assassin tank could not keep aggro of me in Kaon even though s/he clearly knew how to play the class, not even with guard on me. It just seems my marauder does so awesome dps numbers when I give my best. S/he also was NOT a bad/dumb one as s/he gave me the guard right at the start without me even asking

If an Assassin can't keep aggro off you with guard, they are bad. Not necessarily awful and incapable of tanking at all, but not playing the spec optimally.

 

I tend not to guard anyone in HM FPs anymore; I wait until someone pulls aggro consistently before using it (so that I don't get lazy), and typically that doesn't happen.

[grallmate]

There is no 'easy' way to determine a bad tank until you're a couple of pulls deep.

 

Now I run a Shadow Tank, Guardian Tank and Assault Vanguard DPS all in a mix of augmented 61/63 mods only using the BiS options with proper stat weightings. Tanks are purely mitigation geared.

 

As a tank: I don't use Guard. I just don't need it outside of NiM SC/FB. When I do Guard someone its based on player not class but since everyone seems to like generalizations I would Guard a well played:

- Assault VG

- Combat Sentinel

- Gunnery Commando

I would never Guard a stealth class. Despite their bursty openers they have the best threat drop in the game, dropping combat.

 

As a DPS: I suggest my guilds weaker tanks give me Guard to make their lives easier but our better tanks don't need to unless I decide to pop everything off the bat, but then, no tank I've run with has yet been able to hold over that. So what does that tell me? Don't pop everything at the start. Give the tank 10 seconds before you unload everything.

 

What it really comes down to for me is different classes have different threat curves. As a tank it is your role to keep that curve as high as possible and try to spike it was early as possible. As a DPS it is your role to keep below the curve set by the tank and to match their spike.

- Shadow tanks spike at about 10s when their first TkT finishes

- Guardian tanks usually spike after their Master Strike but this can vary and they are much less spiky than Shadows.

- Vanguard tanks I'll admit I am not an expert on but I would guess its after HiB + Energy Blast. I would also liken their threat curve to Guardians (albeit higher) rather than Shadows.

Comparatively:

- Assault Vanguard can spike massively between 4.5 and 7.5s with a AP + HiB -> SS -> HiB. Potentially 19k in 3 seconds even without CDs.

- Combat Sentinel can spike as early as 3-7.5s with Precision Slash -> Master Strike -> Blade Storm.

Other classes are capable of spiking hard as well (Hybrid Gunsligers and Focus Guardians come to mind) but that's usually a conscious decision rather than a result of lucky procs or class design and a good player can control (read avoid) that to a much greater extent.

 

TL;DR: Guarding healer != bad tank. Popping everything and expecting a tank to hold aggro == bad DPS.

[RikuvonDrake]

When doing flashpoints with my Jugg DPS, I intercede the tank just to make sure he loses aggro to me, I repeat this until I get guard, and then I right click that away and repeat the same stuff again, drives tanks nuts.

[LeeTone]

I guard no one in FPs...

[Talorra]

I guard no one in FPs...

 

You rebel you.

[JimmyTheCannon]

Don't forget, as a highly-geared DPS in an HM FP there's rarely (and by that I mean NEVER) a need for you to go all-out on a mob. If you're in full 63s, take it easy, for crying out loud, particularly if you don't know the tank. Be a team player.

[slafko]

When doing flashpoints with my Jugg DPS, I intercede the tank just to make sure he loses aggro to me, I repeat this until I get guard, and then I right click that away and repeat the same stuff again, drives tanks nuts.

 

You're most welcome to try that with me tanking. I don't give a rats *** about anyone's percieved imba dps. You aggro, you tank. You break cc, you tank.

 

I hold myself to the same rules when playing as Sentinel.

[JouerTue]

i think it's better to be adaptive..doing a lot of pvp, where you guard the healer at the start, you proceed to switch the target basing your decision on who's getting more damage. i do this also in pve..it keeps your attention focused on the party, which is never a bad thing..probably guard is much more important when you have your tionese and nothing more..when you start to get the good stuff you won't really need to guard someone...maybe for the damage reduction..

i've been asked to guard anyone in HM FP, healers, overgeared dps, under geared..sometimes i ask who wants to be guarded. then i do what my head says..it's a tank decision..

 

and if your tank is bad, the guard will be the last of your problems!

 

then when you go with your healers, you can see who needs guard even better! if everyone comes to you or if a dps is aggroing too much..i tell the tank and yeah, we are ok. but in general FP don't have so stressy situation to put a good group in danger..are bad groups that wipe, doesn't matter the role

Edited March 18, 2013 by JouerTue
grammar

[NrDLeipe]

again this .........

 

Guard is used when only nessecary, as an assassin tank 99% of the time you dont need in a fp cause that stuff is just 2 easy, most of the time my guard goes to the person with no awarness of the fight, ( alot of times its the marauder cause they like to jump in before the tank " no awareness " ) sometimes the healer gets it for example koan hm the fight were the tank most of the times mount the cannon then ill guard the healer so if he gets aggro he will have slight dmg red untill the adds are peeled of of him.

[SamuelAU]

"I never bought taunt from the trainer, what do?????"

[Kawabonga]

"I never bought taunt from the trainer, what do?????"

 

*flee group* XD

[Stressfire]

You're most welcome to try that with me tanking. I don't give a rats *** about anyone's percieved imba dps. You aggro, you tank. You break cc, you tank.

 

I hold myself to the same rules when playing as Sentinel.

 

I like it!

 

Personally, I don't purposely pull what I can't kill fast. Nor will I purposely try to drag aggro off a tank just to show off (or for whatever reason people do that).

 

But - during a longish fight with a champ or boss I will get a good head of steam going (i.e. my procs all hit at just the right times, my high-damage fillers crit like crazy, etc) and the baddie will make a run at me. Really sucks too, because I have to tap my aggro dump and then wait a few seconds before re-engaging for tank to regain aggro and by that time i have to start all over again building up damage.

 

I haven't played a tank class yet, but I wouldn't think it'd be that "easy" to pull aggro - so no idea if it's a tank issue, but I always assume it's a me-issue and try to slow down a bit and use my aggro dump accordingly.

 

ETA - BUT, the best was to know your tank is dumb/bad is that they show up in dps gear. I don't mean just some that they haven't re-modded/augmented yet, I mean all dps gear: no shield, no defense, no absorb:confused: And then get touchy when you point it out.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Stressfire

[THEFERRARICARGUY]

I find it most annoying when I'm dpsing, I drop aggro then somehow suddenly pull threat again (Sometimes even with geared tanks. gg threat)