Erked.

[DarthTHC]

I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with my subscription revenue going to develop content that I have no interest in (PvP, raiding) for other subscribers.

 

Just like I have no issue whatsoever paying taxes so that other taxpayers can have free health care. If my taxes were used to pay for the health care of some tourist from Uzbekibekistanstan, that would be something else.

 

Why do you think something other than subscribers is dropping this type of cash on the cartel market? f2p players have already shown a propensity to not pay a dime or at least pay as minimally as possible. There's no way theyr'e dropping ~53 months worth of subscription money to get the title.

Edited March 14, 2013 by DarthTHC

[Lostpenguins]

I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with my subscription revenue going to develop content that I have no interest in (PvP, raiding) for other subscribers.

 

Just like I have no issue whatsoever paying taxes so that other taxpayers can have free health care. If my taxes were used to pay for the health care of some tourist from Uzbekibekistanstan, that would be something else.

You're bringing politics into this. Please don't. That's a reportable offense.

 

Still, you're trying to split hairs. There are plenty of subs who also participate in the Cartel Market. And saying that some of their sub money can't go to the CM is not your place to say. Once again, you're not paying $15 with an understanding that it goes to specific things that meet your approval. You're paying a sub to play on the servers with the systems they designed for the game. That's all the rights you have. This isn't design by democracy.

[Eillack]

I still fail to see why are people mad at this.

Is there a single thing available from the new Rep vendors that WAS NOT in Cartel Market or Cartel Packs before? I did not see any.

In a way, this is maybe even better, as you can buy as many formerly-CM chestpieces (after reaching the reputation), without the need to pay Cartel Coins every time. Or maybe you are frustarated that Revan§s mask is not dropping from any of the packs and you do not have several million ingame credits to buy it? Now you can buy it from the stuff that drops from those Cartel Packs that yielded nothing for you...

 

Because this completely devides the community / gates people from accessing the Rep. One's wallet should never be such an influence as it is now in TOR.

 

This sets a precedent as well for future updates (which seem to be CM 99% of the time now) that will most likely lead to more P2W / P2R.

[CosmicKat]

You're bringing politics into this. Please don't. That's a reportable offense.

 

Still, you're trying to split hairs. There are plenty of subs who also participate in the Cartel Market. And saying that some of their sub money can't go to the CM is not your place to say. Once again, you're not paying $15 with an understanding that it goes to specific things that meet your approval. You're paying a sub to play on the servers with the systems they designed for the game. That's all the rights you have. This isn't design by democracy.

 

My analogy might have been political if I were American, but I am not so it is not, nor was it intended to be. But go ahead, tell my mom if you want.

 

I do not know or care what percentages of CM and subscriber revenues goes where. I think that any content of any kind that is designed to be sold or gambled for in the CM market should be made available via ingame means to subscribers.

 

The CM was sold as the place where F2P players would be able to buy perks and unlocks to give them the benefits of subscribing. As I have said previously, I do not expect all fluff items to be handed to subscribers but I do expect some of them to be available as quest rewards, random drops, or some other form where they are rewards for playing the game.

 

If they stop providing new content to subscribers then the game is effectively in "maintenance mode" with a new product, the CM, running alongside it.

[jereellison]

I do not know or care what percentages of CM and subscriber revenues goes where. I think that any content of any kind that is designed to be sold or gambled for in the CM market should be made available via ingame means to subscribers.

 

The CM was sold as the place where F2P players would be able to buy perks and unlocks to give them the benefits of subscribing. As I have said previously, I do not expect all fluff items to be handed to subscribers but I do expect some of them to be available as quest rewards, random drops, or some other form where they are rewards for playing the game.

 

If they stop providing new content to subscribers then the game is effectively in "maintenance mode" with a new product, the CM, running alongside it.

 

*Like*

[Lostpenguins]

My analogy might have been political if I were American, but I am not so it is not, nor was it intended to be. But go ahead, tell my mom if you want.

No, you should care because it violates the ToS for the forums. Nationality has nothing to do with it. Just giving you a fair warning on it, but feel free to continue to be snarky. I'm finding less reason to discuss with you on each new post you make as you come off sounding more and more like an angry little kid who's throwing a tantrum.

I do not know or care what percentages of CM and subscriber revenues goes where. I think that any content of any kind that is designed to be sold or gambled for in the CM market should be made available via ingame means to subscribers.

Well, it's not. It never was from the get-go. It's been that way for months. And yet you're still complaining and still playing. I find that part hilarious. The features you just described about the CM have been around for so long yet you continue to play. Obviously it hasn't affected you as much as you claim because you're still playing, but all you seem to express is doom and gloom in your viewpoints.

The CM was sold as the place where F2P players would be able to buy perks and unlocks to give them the benefits of subscribing.

Are you purposely leaving out the fact that it was known well before the CM came out that it would also vanity items that are cosmetic only? And there was nothing that said the CM was only for F2P. If that was the case then why allow subscribers access to it? Care to twist facts more?

 

As I have said previously, I do not expect all fluff items to be handed to subscribers but I do expect some of them to be available as quest rewards, random drops, or some other form where they are rewards for playing the game.

Do you know that there's new armors from doing new operations and pvp in the expansion, right? Therefore, you're wrong. You said you expect some to be available by playing the game. There are new models available from in game that you cannot get from the CM. So try again. Btw, look at the gree weapons and gree mount. Complete fluff that you can get, right now, that cannot be purchased via the Cartel Market. Also, let me know when you find the Mini Secant in the Cartel Packs too. Oh wait... you can't.

If they stop providing new content to subscribers then the game is effectively in "maintenance mode" with a new product, the CM, running alongside it.

Obviously from what I just posted, they didn't stop providing new content.

 

Let's see... since the CM was released they also released:

A new FP

A new Operation

An expansion (argue all you want, but I just condensed it into an expansion, but if you want me to list each thing, i can)

A new event

A new system that is reputation

 

So it seems to me they've provided several things, most of them definitely not fluff, that are real content that are not from the CM.

 

So, once again you're wrong. Please stop making false claims. You make it seem like all non-CM stuff has been left to rot and that the only machine churning now is the CM. That's positively false and until you can stop lying about that you'll never be able to have a real discussion about it.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Lostpenguins

[NigeldeJ]

Yes there was new content, but there is also a lot (a lot!!!) of new stuff in CM, and that is way too much compared to the things you can get in-game. And don't tell me the new gear models look great, 'cause most of em don't. Also I can't really say there is much (challenging) content at endgame PVE for an MMO (not saying there is none), and don't get me started on the amount of WZ's. Perhaps EAWare should consider putting some more time into new content, instead of the CM, 'cause atm I don't see new content every 6 weeks, as they said.

[ItchyThePenguin]

Because this completely devides the community / gates people from accessing the Rep. One's wallet should never be such an influence as it is now in TOR.

 

This sets a precedent as well for future updates (which seem to be CM 99% of the time now) that will most likely lead to more P2W / P2R.

 

I don't buy that. Why wasn't there this much rage with previously released cartel packs? The only way you could get anything in those packs was either to buy the packs with coins or buy what you wanted from the GTN. Previously, I can only remember limited rage from the community when new packs were released. Most people actually seemed to enjoy the cartel packs. The same thing applies with these new packs. The only difference is that there's a vendor that can provide you with some extra items provided you have the necessary reputation level and the means to purchase said items. It's really not that different if you ask me.

 

This new reputation is merely an added incentive for people to purchase cartel packs. This increased incentive will lead to more purchases and, therefore, more money for BioWare/EA.

 

Also, be careful if you're gonna argue this "P2W" junk. Nothing provided through this reputation vendor is P2W and there is nothing to suggest that P2W will happen in the future. That's quite the slippery slope you're arguing.

[Levity]

Yes there was new content, but there is also a lot (a lot!!!) of new stuff in CM, and that is way too much compared to the things you can get in-game. And don't tell me the new gear models look great, 'cause most of em don't. Also I can't really say there is much (challenging) content at endgame PVE for an MMO (not saying there is none), and don't get me started on the amount of WZ's. Perhaps EAWare should consider putting some more time into new content, instead of the CM, 'cause atm I don't see new content every 6 weeks, as they said.

 

A dev. stated that CM items were content man. So yeah they are doing good with content every 4-6 weeks!

[Eillack]

I don't buy that. Why wasn't there this much rage with previously released cartel packs? The only way you could get anything in those packs was either to buy the packs with coins or buy what you wanted from the GTN. Previously, I can only remember limited rage from the community when new packs were released. Most people actually seemed to enjoy the cartel packs. The same thing applies with these new packs. The only difference is that there's a vendor that can provide you with some extra items provided you have the necessary reputation level and the means to purchase said items. It's really not that different if you ask me.

 

This new reputation is merely an added incentive for people to purchase cartel packs. This increased incentive will lead to more purchases and, therefore, more money for BioWare/EA.

 

Also, be careful if you're gonna argue this "P2W" junk. Nothing provided through this reputation vendor is P2W and there is nothing to suggest that P2W will happen in the future. That's quite the slippery slope you're arguing.

 

People were ticked with the grade 7 ship packs and color crystals.

 

Before now, there was actually fluff and nothign but it. This system now, as you even stated separates those who have enough money to waste IRL or are rich in-game. This system now creates a 1st and 2nd social class structure with subscibers.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Eillack

[tekhiun]

People were ticked with the grade 7 ship packs and color crystals.

 

Before now, there was actually fluff and nothign but it. This system now, as you even stated separates those who have enough money to waste IRL or are rich in-game. This system now creates a 1st and 2nd social class structure with subscibers.

 

This is actually a very good point. People that support this system are obviously the one with some sort of spending issue or just have more money than sense.

[Infernixx]

Yes there was new content, but there is also a lot (a lot!!!) of new stuff in CM, and that is way too much compared to the things you can get in-game. And don't tell me the new gear models look great, 'cause most of em don't. Also I can't really say there is much (challenging) content at endgame PVE for an MMO (not saying there is none), and don't get me started on the amount of WZ's. Perhaps EAWare should consider putting some more time into new content, instead of the CM, 'cause atm I don't see new content every 6 weeks, as they said.

 

The stuff that they come up with on the CM are rather easily done in comparison to the rest of the game.

 

CM stuff is mostly NPC sets, recolored sets, recolored pets, a few redone mounts, a few new sets, a few new mounts, and the occasional trinket/bauble.

 

Compare that to devising, designing, testing, debugging(with varying levels of success), a single new Operation. AS WELL AS, new Flash Points, a new World, new Warzones.

 

New abilities, tweaked old abilities...

 

As well as! All the weapons, armor and trinkets/baubles and mounts and pets that go along with those new Operations/Flash Points.

 

There is a metric 'crapton' of effort, time and money that goes into developing new content that lies outside the CM. But people want to focus on the efforts made on the CM without considering that the new non-CM content is paid for with CM cash.

 

You should be grateful that the CM is there to pay for things like RoTHC.

[ItchyThePenguin]

People were ticked with the grade 7 ship packs and color crystals.

 

Fair point. I forgot about the ship components. I can see the P2W argument from that, but it's rather indirect. The upgraded ship components didn't directly translate to an advantage over other players. As for the crystals, I never really considered them to be "P2W". Sure, it provides an advantage if you're below 50, but it's a pretty minute advantage and one that decreases as your level increases and levels off at level 50.

 

Before now, there was actually fluff and nothign but it. This system now, as you even stated separates those who have enough money to waste IRL or are rich in-game. This system now creates a 1st and 2nd social class structure with subscibers.

 

True enough, but wasn't this always the case ever since the Cartel Market entered the game? You either had enough coins to buy the packs to get what you wanted or you had the in game credits to buy what you wanted from someone else. In some cases (Revan's Mask for example) you would need millions of credits just to purchase one item.

Edited March 14, 2013 by ItchyThePenguin

[TheIrage]

The stuff that they come up with on the CM are rather easily done in comparison to the rest of the game.

 

CM stuff is mostly NPC sets, recolored sets, recolored pets, a few redone mounts, a few new sets, a few new mounts, and the occasional trinket/bauble.

 

Compare that to devising, designing, testing, debugging(with varying levels of success), a single new Operation. AS WELL AS, new Flash Points, a new World, new Warzones.

 

New abilities, tweaked old abilities...

 

As well as! All the weapons, armor and trinkets/baubles and mounts and pets that go along with those new Operations/Flash Points.

 

There is a metric 'crapton' of effort, time and money that goes into developing new content that lies outside the CM. But people want to focus on the efforts made on the CM without considering that the new non-CM content is paid for with CM cash.

 

You should be grateful that the CM is there to pay for things like RoTHC.

 

You are far reaching thinking that "new non-CM content is paid for with CM cash".

 

There are still subscriptions and that is no drop in a bucket. And RoTHC isn't free either.

 

But really, how much of that money is coming back to to non-CM game? Do you see a substantial amount of content added post CM? Do you see improved CS ? Do you see game engine improvements?

 

Most of what we have seen so far are re-investments into the CM. Still growing the business if you will. And that is fine. That and paying off the investment ( I was under the impression this game was very expensive to make).

 

I feel there is little to no sign of a measurable impact of CM profits on non-CM content. that is a statement from now to the state where RoTHC is at. Other than that, we shall see...

 

So yea, I am not thankful. What I am is bored. Bored of doing daily's. Bored and amused that I am finding arguing with a complete stranger about an insignificant topic more entertaining than ... logging in to do daily's.

[grombrinda]

Fair point. I forgot about the ship components. I can see the P2W argument from that, but it's rather indirect. The upgraded ship components didn't directly translate to an advantage over other players. As for the crystals, I never really considered them to be "P2W". Sure, it provides an advantage if you're below 50, but it's a pretty minute advantage and one that decreases as your level increases and levels off at level 50.

 

 

 

True enough, but wasn't this always the case ever since the Cartel Market entered the game? You either had enough coins to buy the packs to get what you wanted or you had the in game credits to buy what you wanted from someone else. In some cases (Revan's Mask for example) you would need millions of credits just to purchase one item.

 

Ok ..p2w means selling an item that gives you an unfair advantage over game mechanics...P2W doesn't just apply to pvp, but pve and crafting itself. You know those high value mods people make?? Imagine if you had a chance to miss on making one instead of it being guaranteed like it is now, and suppose they sold an item in the cartel store that raised or guaranteed your chance to craft that mod. Sure you might not use that for pvp or might need it for pvp, that is not the issues. The issue is that player buying an unfair advantage to beat a game mechanic. That is pay to win....so yes the ships mods,the crystals..those are p2w items because you buy with money for an advantage that you otherwise do not possess without hard work in game,the way it is supposed to work.

 

As for the orange gear, as I stated before , I don't mind that there are some on the cartel market, but give the crafters some of those designs OR remove every crafting that does not make some type of modification for your gear, as it is pointless now that all the great looking gear is NON-CRAFTABLE. Thus taking away from the paying customer and quality of the game itself.

[Infernixx]

You are far reaching thinking that "new non-CM content is paid for with CM cash".

 

There are still subscriptions and that is no drop in a bucket. And RoTHC isn't free either.

 

But really, how much of that money is coming back to to non-CM game? Do you see a substantial amount of content added post CM? Do you see improved CS ? Do you see game engine improvements?

 

Most of what we have seen so far are re-investments into the CM. Still growing the business if you will. And that is fine. That and paying off the investment ( I was under the impression this game was very expensive to make).

 

I feel there is little to no sign of a measurable impact of CM profits on non-CM content. that is a statement from now to the state where RoTHC is at. Other than that, we shall see...

 

So yea, I am not thankful. What I am is bored. Bored of doing daily's. Bored and amused that I am finding arguing with a complete stranger about an insignificant topic more entertaining than ... logging in to do daily's.

 

Have you not seen the stream of updates, improvements, additions, events, gear, tweaking and bug fixes since TOR went F2P? How many came before? How many after?

 

Consider that every fix, tweak, new gear set, new 'everything' costs money to accomplish.

 

Now, consider that they've said that 500k subs is the 'break point' for them. That 500k subs are what's paying to keep 'the lights on', as it were. Leaving only 200k subs to pay for investing back into the game. That's not alot, comparatively speaking.

[Maraxuss]

You're assuming the worst. You can call it 'predicting' or 'anticipating', but you're just assuming bad stuff because of a bias against the parent company.

Not only that, but you blissfully assume that 'short term gain' is a goal of a multi-billion dollar company. Most people would logically guess that companies go for long-term gain 'and' short-term gain.

 

In this case, the Cartel Packs are making, by far, enough money to make new Cartel Packs(minimal efforts of development to do reskinned stuff, recolored stuff and stuff from NPCs) AND enough money to put into long-term development of new expansions full of new worlds, new Operations, new Flash Points, new Warzones.

 

That was the whole 'point' to the Cartel Market.

 

As for the rep being tied to the packs, so what? The Vendors are full of fluff. If you want that fluff, then go get it.

 

A predictor of the future is what has transpired in the past. And in this case EA has said that they should "Not gauge, but indeed charge, for more ammo packs BF3"

[TheIrage]

Have you not seen the stream of updates, improvements, additions, events, gear, tweaking and bug fixes since TOR went F2P? How many came before? How many after?

 

Consider that every fix, tweak, new gear set, new 'everything' costs money to accomplish.

 

Now, consider that they've said that 500k subs is the 'break point' for them. That 500k subs are what's paying to keep 'the lights on', as it were. Leaving only 200k subs to pay for investing back into the game. That's not alot, comparatively speaking.

 

My text implied I have not seen a strem of.... since TOR went F2P. We had one event since and 2 before? again, aside from what is added onto the CM... nope.

 

So you know for sure we have 700k subs? and you are sure that the 500K subs do not include paying off investments?

[Arkerus]

My text implied I have not seen a strem of.... since TOR went F2P. We had one event since and 2 before? again, aside from what is added onto the CM... nope.

 

So you know for sure we have 700k subs? and you are sure that the 500K subs do not include paying off investments?

 

I"m not even going to start getting into how companies pay off invested capital, depreciation, ROI, NPV, FV, etc.

 

I will say this. This game isn't running in the red. Its making money or it would have been shut down.

[LukeSaberRattler]

Before now, there was actually fluff and nothign but it. This system now, as you even stated separates those who have enough money to waste IRL or are rich in-game. This system now creates a 1st and 2nd social class structure with subscibers.

 

Doesn't this class structure exist in every MMO in the history of the world whether they have a money store or not? I mean you will always have people that don't have the ingame currency to afford all items.

Edited March 15, 2013 by LukeSaberRattler

[Andryah]

I"m not even going to start getting into how companies pay off invested capital, depreciation, ROI, NPV, FV, etc.

 

Indeed. I have personally done it enough times now in the forum to know it's like watering rocks and expecting flowers to grow. They don't read it, or they refuse to understand basic business finance and accounting practice and tax law.

 

I will say this. This game isn't running in the red. Its making money or it would have been shut down.

 

Correct. At least this part I would think people would understand. Companies don't continue to run red line products.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Andryah

[Maraxuss]

Have you not seen the stream of updates, improvements, additions, events, gear, tweaking and bug fixes since TOR went F2P? How many came before? How many after?

 

Consider that every fix, tweak, new gear set, new 'everything' costs money to accomplish.

 

Now, consider that they've said that 500k subs is the 'break point' for them. That 500k subs are what's paying to keep 'the lights on', as it were. Leaving only 200k subs to pay for investing back into the game. That's not alot, comparatively speaking.

 

Ultima Online is still going...I don't think swtor is going anywhere soon.

[Blackavaar]

Ultima Online is still going...I don't think swtor is going anywhere soon.

 

Ultima Online is run by a company that is satisfied with making a profit.

 

EA will not be satisfied by a profit. They have to make a huge profit or nothing at all. If that was not the case they would not have made the move to F2P so quickly when their sub numbers started to dip.

 

SWTOR is not as safe as you might like to think.

 

[LukeSaberRattler]

We have no idea how far in the green SWTOR is or isn't at this point since we haven't got any numbers on subs or CM sales. But the fact that it is still running means EA is getting what they want from it or believe they will very soon.

[TheIrage]

I"m not even going to start getting into how companies pay off invested capital, depreciation, ROI, NPV, FV, etc.

 

I will say this. This game isn't running in the red. Its making money or it would have been shut down.

 

You don't have to. That is not the point. The point was questioning where/how he/she was factually quoting those numbers.

 

I agree with your second sentence as far as say operating income. But I ask you, and it is your opinion, do you think they have payed off their investment?