I miss the days when MMOs were wonderous...

[Jinxblog]

Why is there no new MMO that can wow me the way other games have in other genres? Why is the MMO market so stagnant?

 

The market feels stagnant because big companies who have the millions upon millions to make MMOs don't like to take risks with that much money. So they try to mimic an MMO that has been very, very successful. This is why there are so many WoW clones (also why there are a lot of CoD clones in the FPS world).

 

Innovation can happen if game companies stop trying to compete with Blizzard/WoW's market. They need to make other MMOs that fill another need that the player has. Less competition means less risk for a company, which leads to new ideas and games being green-lighted.

 

I'm not saying that these new MMOs will be amazing or have millions of subscribers, but they will hopefully bring a lot of new elements to the table.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Jinxblog

[kirorx]

I feel it used to be MMORPG, now it's just MMO

 

The community and worlds have changed from a virtual land to to be immersed in to a hub for pvp and group missions

 

That is the big change I have seen. Instead of a virtual word it's LOL RP

Edited February 17, 2013 by kirorx

[MariaD]

Was it that we were new to it? Are we just burned out and jaded? Maybe even OLD and jaded? Is there anything that could be brought to SWToR to being a sense of wow (no pun intended) and amazement?

We are not jaded, we are sophisticated

 

In short, yes, I believe the changes are in us, not the games.

 

I am happy to report I experienced some of that "wonderland" feeling with SWTOR.

 

To answer your question, I think the only way to create the sense of amazement is to have user-generated content and "human" interface. User-generated content is something like what happens in EVE and Minecraft, but with more scaffolding for the casuals. The next game that will do to EVE what WoW did to EQ will hit it big.

 

As for human interface - characters that either voice what I type or modulate what I say, for example... Facial expressions that follow my facial expressions... Read "Snowcrash" for some ideas. People want more "face to face" encounters and the sense of human closeness. But with avatars.

[Cinnder]

I played City of Heroes for over 7 years and I still had frequent moments of wonder, so for me it was not just because it was new. However, now that you bring it up, all the moments of wonder I have had in SWTOR *were* just when something was new to me. I think the main things that kept the wonder going for me in CoH that are missing here were (1) the huge number of power sets, which made even the same class feel different with each new character; (2) similarly, the variety in enemies, requiring significantly different combat tactics; finally (3) the noticeable difference in power as you levelled up -- in SWTOR I can't take on many more mobs at 50 than I could at, say, 25.

[TheNegotiator]

What the OP is talking about it mostly a theme park vs. sandbox game. For those that don't know what that is...sandbox is an open world which does not force you to do anything in particular. Opposite that is theme park...which is what TOR is. You level your character, do your missions, talk to your comps, do flashpoints and ops...etc. You follow the plan and the "progression" path.

 

EQ in 99 was for the most part sandbox...today it's almost 100% theme park. Also you have to remember just how difficult EQ was when it was first released...death was always one step away. Leveling was hard and slow. You were always broke. It was very challenging but the community was great. It had real auctions, it had real factions, it had a lot of things that made it a winner, and yes part of that was the newness.

 

Regarding EQ Next, SOE has announced they are making the game pure sandbox (in an effort to make something extraordinary) , so maybe you will get some of your wonder back.

[Kalfear]

What the OP is talking about it mostly a theme park vs. sandbox game. For those that don't know what that is...sandbox is an open world which does not force you to do anything in particular. Opposite that is theme park...which is what TOR is. You level your character, do your missions, talk to your comps, do flashpoints and ops...etc. You follow the plan and the "progression" path.

 

EQ in 99 was for the most part sandbox...today it's almost 100% theme park.

 

EQ was never called Sandbox

UO was sandbox

EQ was very much a theme park style MMORPG from day one on!

 

The only thing original EQ didnt have early on was quest lines (well working ones anyways) but its progression was very much

 

a to b to c to d

this area to that area to that area in a linear fashion

 

The leveling was Themepark

 

I really dont get where people now try to claim EQ was a sandbox game

It NEVER was

 

It was designed to be a alternative to UO which was a pure sandbox game.

 

Exploration is NOT a sandbox only feature as some like to think

 

Anyways, I didnt get the whole sandbox vrs Themepark arguement from the OP to be honest

 

Based on most responses, I dont think many if any did (other then yourself of course)

 

Think you might have missed the point the OP was driving at.

 

Oh and as for "EQ Next", thats a return to original EQ designs (which again are not sandbox designs, you still follow a linear path from point to point to point. Get in a area above your level and you will not be exploring much of it.)

[Darth__Carnal]

While I have no desire for this game (ArcheAge) and people will find its only a nitch market (which was said all allong by those in the know)

 

Trion picked up North American distribution rights for this game so dont worry

On NA servers you will be able to play NA hours (IE All day every day)

 

Any game worth it's salt is niche, and placed into a genre. RPG, FPS, TPS, RTS, SURVIVAL HORROR.

 

If you don't like the genre, then you will probably not like the games made in that genre. Call of Duty has proven to be a huge success as a FPS, if it was turned into a RPG ? Not so much...

 

ARCHEAGE - Is going to be impressive when it hits NA, and will certainly bring back some of that MMO Sandbox Love, seen in Ultima online and SWG.

 

On a side note, the Korean Servers have their own rules based on Korea, and I believe there is a mandatory max amount of hours you can play a MMO over there. Talk about government infringement .

 

Fortunately, here in the Land of the Free you can play as much as you want at any time of the day.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Darth__Carnal

[BlueArab]

Back in the day when MMOs were still pretty new, I got into Everquest and it seemed amazing. The world was huge and had tons of places to explore. There were endless things to do. When you got to endgame, you actually felt powerful, like you had accomplished something. I would print out spell lists and maps and had them organized in a big folder super-geeky style. I took that game as srs bsns.

 

This thread is not to bag on SWToR or how to talk about how other games are better. I am here to ask you guys what you think is missing. I know that there are a lot of you who were blown away by Everquest or (insert your first big MMO here). What did they have that brought that sense of amazement?

 

Was it that we were new to it? Are we just burned out and jaded? Maybe even OLD and jaded? Is there anything that could be brought to SWToR to being a sense of wow (no pun intended) and amazement?

 

I didn't take the chance to read through the thread, I will go through it at some point. My biggest issue with SWTOR is that, in my opinion, it didn't raise the gaming bar in any way. The majority of elements in the game are MMO commonplace, or WoW commonplace. And wherever it did try something new, it hasn't really had any groundbreaking development.

 

For a game that cost so much to create, and was in works for so many years, I felt like there should have been something more. What that something more is, I don' know, but there is something missing from the game.

[Astoncam]

This game has a lot of wonderous posibilities to discover.. This is an example just in Nar Shaddaa.

 

[BlueArab]

This game has a lot of wonderous posibilities to discover.. This is an example just in Nar Shaddaa.

 

 

That video was a show of skill of the creator's editing skills. As to the game itself, it showed the lack of any kind of decent Role Playing or Machinima implementation. The gameplay itself was so limited in that video; I have seen more ability in Halo Machinima.

[MariaD]

This game has a lot of wonderous posibilities to discover.. This is an example just in Nar Shaddaa.

 

 

Loved the video. Thanks so much for making it and for sharing! I agree the game allows a lot of RP and video possibilities. I wish it had "green screen" modeler though, so we could easily isolate characters and objects.

 

I found that RPing, making stories and participating in making videos is what brought "that wonderous feeling" for me in SWTOR. But voice acting of characters, and the "theme park" elements in-game is what gets me going in the first place...

 

While we are sharing, here is a video my guildie made, called "Quintessential conversations: One night on Nar Shaddaa." It's a film noir about a murder investigation. I played a small role, the triple agent.

[TheBBP]

Wow folks. A bunch more great responses. Please remember that it is not my intention for this thread to bag on SWTOR nor to promote a "better" game. I am just looking for what you guys think could be done here to add to the wonder many of us have experienced in the past.

 

To get back to the conversation, I get that a lot of the amazement came from everything being new. It still doesn't keep me from missing that feeling in an MMO.

 

Something that would awe me is walking into my hangar and boarding (not loading into) my ship, firing it up and taking off into space or into the atmosphere and then into space. I know that Star Citizen is looking to have this sort of mechanic, but to have it in the TOR mmo space would be amazing.

[tacoknite]

Nothing is missing.

 

Back when EQ came and later WoW. You have to remember that it was a "niche" audience. The people that played it new nothing else but death penalties, walking hours to get to places.

 

As the genre got popular the game had to change. You saw easier content, quicker leveling, and much more convenience. A very good example of this change was eve's walking in stations. They were trying to cater to the players that couldn't grasp or enjoy eve as it was. They screwed up their game and ultimately went back to focusing on little red crosses.

 

These days every developer is in the mode of "we want a piece" of the pie. Making something truly different is a gamble, when you know you can get 1 to 2 million players but taking a title and just re-creating the same game.

 

I remember getting home from college, calling my friends on the phone. Getting all 40 of us together, go into brd to have our priests mind control the mobs that could then then give our party a fire resist buff. We'd then make our attempt on magtherdon in molten core.

 

I remember the incredible length of time it took to get a jedi knight in swg.

 

Back in 2002 to 2004 the mmo market was very small. Now it's very large you are talking about maybe 10 millio players world wide to 100+ million players. WoW happened to be at the right place at the right time. So the game has the resources and power to continue to lead the industry. With swtor's initial investment , they just took the wrong turn and developed something that wasn't comparable to what was already out there.

[Xenith]

Back in the day when MMOs were still pretty new, I got into Everquest and it seemed amazing. The world was huge and had tons of places to explore. There were endless things to do. When you got to endgame, you actually felt powerful, like you had accomplished something. I would print out spell lists and maps and had them organized in a big folder super-geeky style. I took that game as srs bsns.

 

This thread is not to bag on SWToR or how to talk about how other games are better. I am here to ask you guys what you think is missing. I know that there are a lot of you who were blown away by Everquest or (insert your first big MMO here). What did they have that brought that sense of amazement?

 

Was it that we were new to it? Are we just burned out and jaded? Maybe even OLD and jaded? Is there anything that could be brought to SWToR to being a sense of wow (no pun intended) and amazement?

 

Open world exploration, unique armor sets for all lvls across the board. Housing done right (not a lifeless ship), guild housing (Guild ships--hopefully this wont be a good idea turned into a debacle if they implement it). More races. Like a lot more.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Xenith

[Levity]

I read this and started up ideas for what I would do for an MMO. This is what I got. There would be a world that had 9 mountains, each mountain has a citadel a top it, and in those citadels are the tombs. The 8 smaller mountains contain 8 of the greatest lords that graced the land in the past and the 9th and biggest mountain contained the tomb of the king of those 8 lords. The king in the past went into power through blood and carnage with the alliegence of those 8 lords at his back. When they ramsacked the original peaceful kingdoms the King of that time cursed the 9 men to horrible deaths. The land was ruled for years under those lords and king until a decade of darkness swept the land and each lord died mystewriously in his confined citadel. The king was never seen again and the world plunged into a darkness for another 10 years. It was known as the 20 Year Decay. Giant spiders from dusky forrests presented themselves, golbins, orcs, all the creatures of the night terrorized the people of this land until (insert hero here) freed a dusky traveller who was passing through (insert heroes name here) town from a band of Goblins. That traveller thrusts you into a story of conflict and ghosts where the 8 lords and 1 king have big plans for the rest of the realm.

 

That's kind of the background story to it. The MMO would launch with 9 raids. Each mountain is a raid, and to get to the raid you would have to finish a long heroic questline that leads you into to face each lord. Each lord will drop raid gear like always present in a MMO but I thought it would be cool to have a variable. Everything we play we always see the names of chest pieces, boots, gauntlets, everything(as an example The Gauntlets of Dark Woe) So when you beat a raid boss it has a chance to drop a scroll. That scroll will inbide a name a specific peice of armor. It would take in consideration the place you got the scroll, the thing you killed, and the original name. So say you had a Shadowed Chestplate, you killed Demon Man in the Mountain of Ley and you got the scroll you woul;d get something like "The Demon Man's Shadowed Chest Plate of Ley. So in a sense your armor will have a history to it. The 9th mountain where the king would be would drop a scroll but for a weapon and that would allow you to name your weapon whatever you wanted.

 

^ That of course would be the end game. I see a lot for the story where you travel the roads of danger with the traveller you met unlocking the deception of the King one step at a time.

[Elyxin]

I think it's the "First Time" thing. usually your first experience in the industry sparkles in it's own way. just like anything else (first relationship, first car....). Although my first experience was DAoC, it was fleeting...much like the beauty you dated for 2 weeks in sophomore year in HS. My real first time was WoW. Brother got me sucked into it, but i waited until I had a rig good enought to play it. the immersion into the world, the experience of seeing your actions impact more then just your TV screen..so much of it ws different then the console games of the past that I played.

 

So they both hold special places in my heart. DAoC for the exposure to a totally new world (literally and figuratively) of gaming...and for WoW, that fully got me immerssed in what MMO's were all about (stories, questing, repeated efforts, raiding, rechign for that high level gear). there was a newness...a mystery. discovering and exposure. It wasn't just a "New" MMO with a different mechanic...it was ALL new. no d-pad. or simple set of instructions. You didn't know what "Game mechanic" or "Threat" meant. you didn't know exactly how many of plant X you needed to farm in order to get to the next tier of craft Y. it was all new..."Ohhh...check it out! i can get my own plants! and make potions! muahahahahaha....."

 

I remember running around teldrassyl (I know I butchered the spelling, but the old school Teld, back in early AQ days) and exploring every new niche. It felt so HUGE! the last time I started a new toon in WoW I pretty much didn't even see the tree...I was focused on little exp numbers flying off my screen, and how fast I could get to the next area. newness gone. Flashy sparkly turned to grinding my next alt to level cap.

 

things have not necessarily changed...just our perspectives of it. We've all played the games with the detailed crafting systems, complex character design, tactically complicated huge fights with 40 or more players in them...we've scaled soo many heights in the gaming industry, that many of us can safely say, "been there....got ALL the t-shirts". But I think thats the issue as well for MMO Dev companies now. they fight a huge industry that really (and in some cases literally) have t-shirts...and been there many times.

 

Also, we've all played enough games to know how many of the mechanics should work, when they do. so potential bugs that we would have ignored in our first virgin experiences (go back and check out the original evercrack...tons of bugs. so did early WoW), we just can't tolerate that any more. the newness is gone, the freshness...so all we have left is a love affair that were hoping the next new Dev team can spruce up for us, which they probably won't be able to...because we all know that it's never as good as your "first time"

 

last statement was metaphorical...Im sure plenty of us have had a horrible exIerience with "first times" of many varieties. but our first MMO time I think is a bit special. Not to mention that usually our "first" MMO is the one that defined the industry for us, and not necessarily the first one we really played. it's part of the reason so many people will refer to WoW when doing comparisons. for many of those people, WoW really was the "first" MMO for them. Take a look at most serious SWG fans. they probably played other MMO's before that, but when they hit SWG they found their idea of what an "MMO" was to them...so that became their first, even if it wasn't their first chronologically.

[Kintaroshi]

What the OP is talking about it mostly a theme park vs. sandbox game. For those that don't know what that is...sandbox is an open world which does not force you to do anything in particular. Opposite that is theme park...which is what TOR is. You level your character, do your missions, talk to your comps, do flashpoints and ops...etc. You follow the plan and the "progression" path.

 

EQ in 99 was for the most part sandbox...today it's almost 100% theme park. Also you have to remember just how difficult EQ was when it was first released...death was always one step away. Leveling was hard and slow. You were always broke. It was very challenging but the community was great. It had real auctions, it had real factions, it had a lot of things that made it a winner, and yes part of that was the newness.

 

Regarding EQ Next, SOE has announced they are making the game pure sandbox (in an effort to make something extraordinary) , so maybe you will get some of your wonder back.

 

SOE destroys what it touches, I will definitely stay away from that.

[Gaff]

What is SWTOR missing? Sandbox play and innovative combat. A Star Wars MMO should be more actiony, like GW2 or some of the upcoming MMOs like Cryptic's Neverwinter or Blade and Soul. Less abilities, more depth with what you can do with them kind of thing. Needed an interesting, universal cover mechanic. Just played it too safe and in the end that didn't work out so well.

 

When I look back at past MMOs I don't think "man, those were the days" I think "glad that's over with, when are they going to really hit the mark?" In my opinion what made any game great in the past is all about your experience with it.. community, "coming of age" experiences with the genre, etc. The games themselves probably had very little impact on your memories.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Gaff

[Wraiven]

MMOs have lost that open world feel that made and MMO what it is. It's like these new companies are trying to cut corners with these closed in worlds that force you to stick to a path. You know, if you try and go off the path in this game, you hit a mountain that can not be climbed, or a hill that can not be climbed. Maps are small and their idea of exploring is going no more than a few feet off any given path. Not my idea of an MMO, this is more like a multi player single player game IMO. Edited February 18, 2013 by Wraiven

[focusandbelieve]

I believe like some of you that we need more of a sandbox. More real estate that we can do something with. This game is amazing, and combined with our starships and stories, if we had some homes, and maybe shops (to expand on the crafting game), that would be great.

[AshlaBoga]

SOE destroys what it touches, I will definitely stay away from that.

 

I wish someone else was making EQN. I really wanted to play it, but I'm fairly certain that SOE will screw me over if I do:(

[kijthae]

Swtor makes me enjoy exploring envorinment.Today I spend 3 hours in nar shada to find a secret level lol. Edited February 18, 2013 by kijthae

[Genghistwelve]

Back in the day when MMOs were still pretty new, I got into Everquest and it seemed amazing...

 

It's called nostalgia. You're not comparing chocolate to vanilla; you're trying to compare the first time you ever had ice cream to your 456th scoop of chocolate or vanilla.

 

Try playing "beloved" games from 1999. Most are unplayable compared to today's expectations. I'd say the few exceptions are the Infinity Engine single-player CRPG's.

 

Accept the MMORPG's you like to play for what they are, not how well they stack up to your memories of your other liked MMORPGs from over a decade ago.

[Darkscis]

The problem I see it is the hand-holding and instant gratification that MMO's need to cater to these days to keep players in a now highly competitive market.

 

Some things I loved about EQ1:

 

No quest markers - You found quests yourself, you read the quest description yourself, you worked out how to do the quest yourself, you found the mobs yourself and you traveled there yourself. If people couldn't be bothered, they could grind. All quest markers do is make people lazy, which in turn makes them watch tv/do something else while trying to play. This completely kills the immersion.

 

No auto map - You explored the world YOURSELF. MMO's don't seem big when you can press M, open the map and see exactly where the boundaries are. When you are exploring randomly, with no idea where you are you can actually get LOST and immerse yourself. When you are exploring a dungeon and all you have is a paper map you have printed out you get to actually feel like you are exploring, not just running to the exact spot you need to be for your quest.

 

Slow leveling - Leveling took months, it was an effort and it weeded out the terribad's. You got to actually feel like you accomplished something by max leveling. In every MMO I have played since Everquest I have hit max level within a few days and gone "great, now the gear grind starts". How can you immerse yourself in a world when you only see the majority of it for a few days before sitting in the endgame town/fleet/capital waiting for raids and hard mode dungeons.

 

XP loss on death - This ties in with above, but an actual punishment for death made leveling slower and increased the skill cap of the community. People who caused deaths were quickly shunned, and even quicker they quit because they couldn't progress. High end groups you could almost always guarantee were going to be full of people who knew what they were doing. It made for a much better end game because you didn't resent half your party because they were terrible but you were stuck with them because you have to get this dungeon run done.

 

All that said, there are also things about Everquest that I didn't like that newer MMO's are catering to:

Instances are fantastic - no more fighting over bosses between guilds etc. Solo content is great for those who don't necessarily have time to find a group.

 

TL;DR - MMO's will never be the same as they were because the market now is hugely competitive and has evolved to be a mainstream part of the gaming community. They therefore need to cater to the greater masses and provide reasons to stay like hand-outs and instant gratification. This comes at the cost of immersion which it seems todays gamers aren't even interested in anyway. All they want is to be better than everyone else.

[ConradLionhart]

It's called nostalgia. You're not comparing chocolate to vanilla; you're trying to compare the first time you ever had ice cream to your 456th scoop of chocolate or vanilla.

 

Try playing "beloved" games from 1999. Most are unplayable compared to today's expectations. I'd say the few exceptions are the Infinity Engine single-player CRPG's.

 

Accept the MMORPG's you like to play for what they are, not how well they stack up to your memories of your other liked MMORPGs from over a decade ago.

 

But why can't there be a 2013 version of those great 1999 games? Why can't game developers create mind-blowing games of today?

 

The reason why people have nostalgia and keep thinking about the old days is because the current generation of games can't cut it. Now in order to enjoy today's games, we have to... lower our expectations?

 

Assassin's Creed is an example of an incredible game of this generation. But why has there not been a MMO that can captivate us the way Everquest/WoW did?