One of the most grossly overlooked "fixes" that was retarded.

[BurnedRemains]

Like full on potato retard. Halving the miniheals that the Watchman/Annihilation spec had. Seriously BW, no one in the world was asking for this. Especially not the fools (yes we are to be playing this spec at this point) whom play the spec. Just give us back our heals.

[cashogy_reborn]

monkeys throwing darts at their big idea board decide what goes into each patch.

 

that is the only explanation for the way PvP balance has progressed.

[BurnedRemains]

monkeys throwing darts at their big idea board decide what goes into each patch.

 

that is the only explanation for the way PvP balance has progressed.

 

You know, at this point I'd believe it.

[Carter_Mathis]

Yeah.... sentinels suck....

[Frostbyt]

Yeah buff merc dps!. ....... Wait wah he's taking about sentinels?

[Macroeconomics]

There's a reason why their PvP balance attempts seem like monkeys throwing darts at a wall. In fact it even explains why its worse than monkeys throwing darts at a wall. Why it consistently nerfs the worst tree (Watchman/Anni) and buffs the best tree (Rage/Focus).

 

BW has historically been heavily reliant on using its ingame stat collection system to drive class (im)balance. They can total up the aggregated (meta average) damage/heal/protection output of every subclass in warzones. This lets them see which class is outputting the best in warzones and which is outputting the worst. On the face of it, it is an awesomely powerful monitoring mechanism.

 

But what that system does not and can not take into account is player migration across subclasses. Overwhelmingly the player base tends to surge to subclasses that are considered (by the player base) to be more powerful, i.e. the FotM phenomenon. That causes a ton of less experienced, less geared players in the subclass and reduces the meta average productivity of the subclass. This is why BW consistently buffs OP classes. Correspondingly the weakest classes are abandoned by all players except for those most dedicated to the subclass. These tend to be the most geared and the most skilled players since they are the only ones that can remain viable with the weakest subclass. Thus the meta average productivity for the weakest subclasses soars due to player migration. And thus BW continues to nerf those subclasses.

[UGLYMRJ]

I miss doing 100K + healing in WZ's... ahhhh... the good ol days.

[Xerain]

I miss doing 100K + healing in WZ's... ahhhh... the good ol days.

 

Yeah that was always fun and totes balanced.

 

 

to the op... shut up. annihilation was only the top spec because fury generation for the other two specs sucked balls.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Xerain

[DarthOvertone]

Pretty sure the Anni/Watch heals were nerfed for PvE reasons...not PvP. But then again, who knows...

[Heezdedjim]

BW has historically been heavily reliant on using its ingame stat collection system to drive class (im)balance. They can total up the aggregated (meta average) damage/heal/protection output of every subclass in warzones. This lets them see which class is outputting the best in warzones and which is outputting the worst. On the face of it, it is an awesomely powerful monitoring mechanism.

How does this work for hybrids? Do they aggregate based on every possible pointwise distribution between the trees, like what the stats are for all 27/8/5 setups? If not, what would they use to decide which tree someone "is" for the purpose of classing them?

[unbreak_able]

There's a reason why their PvP balance attempts seem like monkeys throwing darts at a wall. In fact it even explains why its worse than monkeys throwing darts at a wall. Why it consistently nerfs the worst tree (Watchman/Anni) and buffs the best tree (Rage/Focus).

 

BW has historically been heavily reliant on using its ingame stat collection system to drive class (im)balance. They can total up the aggregated (meta average) damage/heal/protection output of every subclass in warzones. This lets them see which class is outputting the best in warzones and which is outputting the worst. On the face of it, it is an awesomely powerful monitoring mechanism.

 

But what that system does not and can not take into account is player migration across subclasses. Overwhelmingly the player base tends to surge to subclasses that are considered (by the player base) to be more powerful, i.e. the FotM phenomenon. That causes a ton of less experienced, less geared players in the subclass and reduces the meta average productivity of the subclass. This is why BW consistently buffs OP classes. Correspondingly the weakest classes are abandoned by all players except for those most dedicated to the subclass. These tend to be the most geared and the most skilled players since they are the only ones that can remain viable with the weakest subclass. Thus the meta average productivity for the weakest subclasses soars due to player migration. And thus BW continues to nerf those subclasses.

 

This explains it for me. Always wondered why they would buff an OP class and nerf an already weak class. Their metric system is flawed and limited.

 

The question is, do THEY realize this?

Edited February 6, 2013 by unbreak_able

[BurnedRemains]

Yeah that was always fun and totes balanced.

 

 

to the op... shut up. annihilation was only the top spec because fury generation for the other two specs sucked balls.

I must have missed the part where that was at all part of my point. Yeah no, please get out of here.

[DharmaPolice]

I assumed (admittedly with zero evidence either way) that the nerf to Watchmen / Annihilation self-heals was a decision driven by PVE or single player questing concerns.

 

They can total up the aggregated (meta average) damage/heal/protection output of every subclass in warzones.

While I agree this probably is the sort of analysis they do, you'd hope they'd be able to analysis their data a bit more than this - e.g. by looking at average output for each AC by valor band or something like that.

[Xerain]

I must have missed the part where that was at all part of my point. Yeah no, please get out of here.

 

Annihilation is fine and in line now.

[Carter_Mathis]

Annihilation is fine and in line now.

 

I think it needs another defensive cooldown

[Xerain]

I think it needs another defensive cooldown

 

Yeah! Something that will wipe all debuffs and stop force and tech attacks!

[ArchangelLBC]

There's a reason why their PvP balance attempts seem like monkeys throwing darts at a wall. In fact it even explains why its worse than monkeys throwing darts at a wall. Why it consistently nerfs the worst tree (Watchman/Anni) and buffs the best tree (Rage/Focus).

 

BW has historically been heavily reliant on using its ingame stat collection system to drive class (im)balance. They can total up the aggregated (meta average) damage/heal/protection output of every subclass in warzones. This lets them see which class is outputting the best in warzones and which is outputting the worst. On the face of it, it is an awesomely powerful monitoring mechanism.

 

But what that system does not and can not take into account is player migration across subclasses. Overwhelmingly the player base tends to surge to subclasses that are considered (by the player base) to be more powerful, i.e. the FotM phenomenon. That causes a ton of less experienced, less geared players in the subclass and reduces the meta average productivity of the subclass. This is why BW consistently buffs OP classes. Correspondingly the weakest classes are abandoned by all players except for those most dedicated to the subclass. These tend to be the most geared and the most skilled players since they are the only ones that can remain viable with the weakest subclass. Thus the meta average productivity for the weakest subclasses soars due to player migration. And thus BW continues to nerf those subclasses.

 

I know I've asked you before about his Macro, and I truly don't want to reopen old wounds, but why do you think this is how they do it and never even consider the FotM phenomenon?

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying BW is not that stupid, but it's still assuming quite a large level of stupidity and while the class balance changes that have come through might justify assuming they're that stupid, once we do there are a myriad of other explanations that are just as valid (the dart board idea is a lot easier than collecting metrics afterall).

 

They obviously collect metrics, but to think thats the only thing they use for class balance requires a tad more justification to my mind.

[KettleBelll]

Pretty sure the Anni/Watch heals were nerfed for PvE reasons...not PvP. But then again, who knows...

 

- Developers play Snipers

- There was a Watchman Sentinel getting kills on them

- Because of this, the healing on Watchman was reduced.

[foxmob]

- Developers play Snipers

- There was a Watchman Sentinel getting kills on them

- Because of this, the healing on Watchman was reduced.

 

rofl

 

I lol'd. ty.

[Monterone]

This explains it for me. Always wondered why they would buff an OP class and nerf an already weak class. Their metric system is flawed and limited.

 

The question is, do THEY realize this?

 

No, because they showcase the guy that does this for them.

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/meet-developers-jonathan-crow

 

Seems like a nice guy, but I agree -- their metrics don't always seem to match the reality of the state of the game.

[Macroeconomics]

I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying BW is not that stupid, but it's still assuming quite a large level of stupidity and while the class balance changes that have come through might justify assuming they're that stupid, once we do there are a myriad of other explanations that are just as valid (the dart board idea is a lot easier than collecting metrics afterall).

 

I don't think BW is stupid. But where I have seen smart organizations epically fail is when they have an information source that they believe gives them an advantage but turns out to be flawed.

 

And then we have in this specific case, the constant harping by BW about their stat collection system. From the "we know how often players get stun locked" statement, to the "all classes are within 5% output of each other" statement to the "we watch kill/death ratios" statement, they have repeatedly confirmed that they are using parameters from their stat collection system to drive class (im)balance. I mean, seriously - all classes within 5% output of each other? That doesn't just happen by accident.

[Uber_the_Goober]

But what that system does not and can not take into account is player migration across subclasses. Overwhelmingly the player base tends to surge to subclasses that are considered (by the player base) to be more powerful, i.e. the FotM phenomenon. That causes a ton of less experienced, less geared players in the subclass and reduces the meta average productivity of the subclass. This is why BW consistently buffs OP classes. Correspondingly the weakest classes are abandoned by all players except for those most dedicated to the subclass. These tend to be the most geared and the most skilled players since they are the only ones that can remain viable with the weakest subclass. Thus the meta average productivity for the weakest subclasses soars due to player migration. And thus BW continues to nerf those subclasses.

 

This also explains why there are some Jugg's / Mara's who will obliterate me, and some who get obliterated by me.

 

I'm the constant in the equation - the "maybe good" or "maybe bad" player is the variable.

 

It also explains why there are so few DPS Operatives in WZ's, but the ones who ARE there, you better run your *** away and FAST!!! Because they're going to do their standard bag of tricks rotation, and if you can't get out of it, or are positioned good for them, you're toast. Absolute toast.

[Rincewend]

I don't think BW is stupid. But where I have seen smart organizations epically fail is when they have an information source that they believe gives them an advantage but turns out to be flawed.

 

And then we have in this specific case, the constant harping by BW about their stat collection system. From the "we know how often players get stun locked" statement, to the "all classes are within 5% output of each other" statement to the "we watch kill/death ratios" statement, they have repeatedly confirmed that they are using parameters from their stat collection system to drive class (im)balance. I mean, seriously - all classes within 5% output of each other? That doesn't just happen by accident.

 

I just hope those are not the only data points they are looking, but add in something like team balance, and tree builds. Just looking at Sorc's how many are running a hybrid spec? and are those the people they are seeing within 5% damage output of other AC's? Unless they planned on people to run hybrid classed just to put out good numbers I would assume that was looked at for balance, but than again the core trees should still be putting out good numbers too.

[Macroeconomics]

I just hope those are not the only data points they are looking (at)

 

The 5% quote was a very revealing statement by BW. That is such a tight tolerance that it can not occur by accident. It had to be guided to that result. And that's how we got de facto acknowledgement that rules changes, i.e. buffs and nerfs were in fact being used to get us to meta average equivalence. Which is just another way of saying that meta average productivity was driving game balance.

 

The depressing part about the 5% quote was that it showed not just a lack of understanding about their game and issues like player migration, but it showed an intellectual laziness by BW about class balancing. That they would ignore class utility and instead simply drive to meta average equivalence is simply.....lazy. Shocking and lazy. Nowadays BW says they look at other measures in addition to their in game stat collection system. But in the same week they said that, they also said that each subclasses meta average kill/death ratio was about the same. Doh. K/R of course is affected by the very same player migration issues that haunt output productivity.

[Vember]

It's also amusing that this change wasn't on the pts, it just happened to go live. Nerfing Watchmen/Anni heals was a pretty moronic decision considering. Not to mention they're now bugged, and you get 1% healing regardless of whether you pop berserk or not.