Same gender romance discussion

[Rabenschwinge]

You can choose to say "The cooks in the restaurant aren't grilling my food. I imagine they're just sprinkling magic cooking dust on it." That does absolutely nothing to change the fact that the cooks ARE in fact grilling the food.

 

... and yet grilling food is not part of visiting a restaurant. And in the case of a restaurant you get the grilled food.

 

In this game you only get implications. What you make out of it, is up to you. If you were to make a game that includes a restaurant visit, grilling food would not be part of it, even though it is implied that it does happen.

 

Even if you have a game where a character disappears in the kitchen and then comes back with prepared food, cooking is not part of the game.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Rabenschwinge

[Ohamsie]

Are we really going to keep going with this? Alright, fine then.

 

 

 

YES IT DOES. The author's intent is blatantly clear. The fact that YOU choose to interpret differently than how it was intended is your prerogative, but it DOESN'T change the author's intent and therefore the inherent meaning of the content.

 

You can choose to say "The cooks in the restaurant aren't grilling my food. I imagine they're just sprinkling magic cooking dust on it." That does absolutely nothing to change the fact that the cooks ARE in fact grilling the food.

 

I am very sorry to once again disagree with you on a few points you are trying to make. You appear to be getting a little upset which is not my intention. I am just trying to clarify my position.

 

I disagree with your statement that the authors are being blatantly clear. I feel that they are merely hinting at things occuring. And hinting at something, and being blatantly clear about something are two very different things. Simply hinting at somethings leaves lots of room for interpretation. It is up to the player to interpret it how they want.

 

I also find fault with your analogy to the steak. With the steak there is actually physical evidence. You can see that the steak has been grilled. You could even go back and watch the steak being grilled by the chef if you so desired. Could you do that with a fade to black? The answer is no. All we can observe and know for certain is the following:

 

-The player and the love interest express a desire to be alone

-They go off and do *something* for a length of time (it is never explicitly stated what that *something* is)

-They return, having enjoyed whatever it is they did

Edited March 14, 2013 by Ohamsie
dyslexic spelling

[Jeca_Cutrer]

Anger and passion are not the same thing. If I appear upset, I am merely intense and perhaps a bit frustrated that once again I can't get the Internet to concede to the most basic and obvious points.

 

In this game you only get implications. What you make out of it, is up to you. If you were to make a game that includes a restaurant visit, grilling food would not be part of it, even though it is implied that it does happen.

(emphasis mine)

 

If you agree that sex is implied in SW:TOR, then who cares if it is "part of the game"?! The whole point is that "sexual themes" exist. It's right there on the box.

 

-The player and the love interest express a desire to be alone

-They go off and do *something* for a length of time (it is never explicitly stated what that *something* is)

-They return, having enjoyed whatever it is they did

 

In 9th grade English they teach this thing called inference. Check it out.

 

Plus, IT'S RIGHT THERE ON THE BOX.

 

If I can't get you to acknowledge what is dangling in front of your face, we are literally unable to have an accurate communication.

 

Enjoy your baseless belief.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Jeca_Cutrer

[stuffystuffs]

You can choose to say "The cooks in the restaurant aren't grilling my food. I imagine they're just sprinkling magic cooking dust on it." That does absolutely nothing to change the fact that the cooks ARE in fact grilling the food.

 

Well, the 'magic cooking dust' interpretation of what's going on in the kitchen is implausible while believing that two people simply make-out in a FTB scene is not. Therefore, the latter example is a legit possible interpretation of what's going on "behind the scenes" while the former is not.

 

The game still does contain "sexual themes" (as the rating states) as the FTB could be interpreted as "having sex".

 

ESRB states that "sexual themes" = "References to sex or sexuality"

 

So SWTOR has references to sex or FTB scenes that can possibly be interpreted as "sex is happening there!" (or not). Depends on the player.

Edited March 14, 2013 by stuffystuffs

[Rabenschwinge]

If you agree that sex is implied in SW:TOR, then who cares if it is "part of the game"?! The whole point is that "sexual themes" exist. It's right there on the box.

 

I was under the impression that we were having a purely semantic discussion...

 

English isn't my first language and sometimes I express myself inaccurately, but it frustrates me when someone says I did and I think I did not. I am not above err, of course and I would consider it to be within the realm of possible that a linguist would say you're right and I am wrong.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Rabenschwinge

[chuixupu]

It's funny, I've actually had arguments with some people regarding some particular cut scenes about whether or not sex actually happened. I think there's cases where it's obvious (especially ones involving Kaliyo she's kind of blunt), but a lot of really aren't even remotely obvious, I can very easily imagine we just hung out talked and ate dinner.

I noticed playing a male consular felt rather saintly.

 

There really isn't a point in arguing the semantics, but I think that if your kids are too young to deal with even the concept of sex and flirting, then that should be your reasoning to either disallow them from playing this game, OR use it as an opportunity to have a little talk about it if you think their brains are ready to handle it.

 

Also, once Makeb comes out, do a playthrough and see just where these SGR options pop up. It might not be so easy to get into them and easy for your kids to avoid.

 

I still find it really odd how most parents are perfectly fine with your kid going around getting into adultry, one night stands, committing genocide, torturing, but when the thought of a flirt between same genders pop up, suddenly this game is just too adult. We are quite the nutty culture.

Edited March 14, 2013 by chuixupu

[Jeca_Cutrer]

So SWTOR has references to sex or FTB scenes that can possibly be interpreted as "sex is happening there!" (or not). Depends on the player.

 

Are you people TRYING to give me a concussion from head-desking? What did I ever do to you?

 

It's a derailing at this point. We haven't brought up same sex relationships for several pages.

 

EDIT: Oh, the guy above me did. Cool.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Jeca_Cutrer

[Anglvamp]

The difference in this all comes down to the children. To kids, Santa shows up on christmas, comes down the chimney, magically goes back up it and does this for the entire world all in one night. In reality parents spend money, buy things, wrap them and set them under the tree. Christmas day, there are presents under the tree. The difference is in point of view (thank you, Obi-wan)

 

The fade-to-black scenes are there to protect kids that might be playing this game from being exposed to things that they should not be. To kids, the scene fades to black, nothing happens and then the game resumes. This is very important if BW wants to keep the rating as it is.

 

As adults, we DO know what happens, kids however do not, since its something that does not exist to them.

 

As far as the comment that started this, there will be no more sexual content when SRGs are added than now. So if its ok for your kids to play currently, why would the inclusion of a few [flirt]s make the game so horrible that you won't let them play any longer?

 

^.^

[Ohamsie]

Anger and passion are not the same thing. If I appear upset, I am merely intense and perhaps a bit frustrated that once again I can't get the Internet to concede to the most basic and obvious points.

 

(emphasis mine)

 

If you agree that sex is implied in SW:TOR, then who cares if it is "part of the game"?! The whole point is that "sexual themes" exist. It's right there on the box.

 

 

 

In 9th grade English they teach this thing called inference. Check it out.

 

Plus, IT'S RIGHT THERE ON THE BOX.

 

If I can't get you to acknowledge what is dangling in front of your face, we are literally unable to have an accurate communication.

 

Enjoy your baseless belief.

 

Don't worry, I learned all about inference in school ("The speaker IMPLIES, the listener INFERS!") But to refresh our memories, let's go over the definitions listed for "inference".

 

1. the process of deriving the strict logical consequences of assumed premises.

 

I think this is where we are getting into a disagreement. You are making an assumption that fade to black automatically means a form of intercourse is occuring. My assumption is more general, in that I just assume something romantic is occuring. It just depends on what the player wants to assume is happening.

 

2. the process of arriving at some conclusion that, though it is not logically derivable from the assumed premises, possesses some degree of probability relative to the premises.

 

I agree that there is a high degree of probability that fade to black means that sex is occuring. But it is not a 100% certainty, and with no evidence to the contrary, I am free to interpret it how I please. I can even logically infer that no hanky panky is occuring with my jedi knight due to the fact that I gave him a rather chaste personality and a high respect for the jedi code.

 

3. a proposition reached by a process of inference.

 

This definition is useless since it uses the word it is trying to define in the definition! Dictionaries, why do you do this?!?!

[stuffystuffs]

Are you people TRYING to give me a concussion from head-desking? What did I ever do to you?

 

It's a derailing at this point. We haven't brought up same sex relationships for several pages.

 

EDIT: Oh, the guy above me did. Cool.

 

What is your point exactly?

 

I honestly don't get what you are trying to say (That SWTOR shows sex?....it doesn't. There are references but that's not the same thing.).

[Jeca_Cutrer]

What is your point exactly?

 

Thank you for asking. My point was simply that there is clearly implied sexual content in the game. It is implied through multiple ways, and therefore "sex isn't in the game" is either false or mere technicality, depending on what your definition of "is" is.

 

I think we're all on the same page at this point, which is explicit scenes of sex are different from implied sex which is different from no inclusion of sex at all. Anyone who is still trying to argue otherwise is either arguing for the sake of arguing or a goldfish, or both.

[chuixupu]

I don't think anyone is trying to say there is no implied sex in the game. There's more than implied, I remember my character actually saying "You slept with so and so". Of course it's never seen or even talked about in a direct manner. It's a rated Teen game. The assumption is that those playing this game know what sex is, but anyone who doesn't wouldn't learn what it is from playing this game.

[Jeca_Cutrer]

I don't think anyone is trying to say there is no implied sex in the game.

 

To me, the "fade to black" doesn't necessarly signify that a sex act is occuring. To me it just signifies that a certain amount of time has passed.

 

 

10chars...

[chuixupu]

10chars...

 

But he/she is right. Fade to black doesn't *necessarily* mean sex occurs. That is different from saying "fade to black always/never means sex occurs". I've played most class stories, and I can tell you there are fade to black scenes were it probably isn't sex considering the conversation. And like I said, I even got into an argument with someone about a particular scene. I liked to think sex was involved but the other person was very adamant that it wasn't and had a good case to make the point, but just couldn't really prove whether or not it did or didn't.

 

Also there definitely are LOTS of fade to black scenes that have absolutely nothing to do anything romantic whatsoever, but simply time passing.

Edited March 14, 2013 by chuixupu

[stuffystuffs]

My point was simply that there is clearly implied sexual content in the game.

 

Right. Though I will still say that some FTBs could possibly be interpreted to be something else and it's not a "wrong" interpretation in situations where the authorial intent isn't clear that "sex is totally happening".

 

It is implied through multiple ways, and therefore "sex isn't in the game" is either false or mere technicality, depending on what your definition of "is" is.

 

Just to be clear, when I see someone say "sex is in game", I think "sex" = "showing sexual activities in the game". With SWTOR, I would categorize it as "sexual themes" as "sex" isn't explicitly shown.

 

Semantics.

 

Also there definitely are LOTS of fade to black scenes that have absolutely nothing to do anything romantic whatsoever, but simply time passing.

 

Given the lack of SGRAs for my characters currently, I like to think sex happens during some of those

Edited March 14, 2013 by stuffystuffs

[Rabenschwinge]

Given the lack of SGRAs for my characters currently, I like to think sex happens during some of those

 

What do you mean? I haven't seen two of the same gender fade to black yet. Alright, two of the 50s I have are Jedi... but the Imperial Agent and the level 41 Powertech did neither. And the IA is a pretty wild child if you want her to be, not above using her body to acquire information or keep others silent.

 

Well, not in a scene with two of the same gender where sex was even remotely implied, anyway... sometimes during a dialogue a companion leaves the ship to do something else elsewhere... that doesn't mean you go on your next mission without that companion, as it would in Mass Effect, they are usually back within two seconds and the scene briefly fades to black. You mean those scenes?

 

Jedi consular companion spoilers:

 

Nadia leaves the ship to visit Tython and learn what it means to be a Jedi on her own, to get a different view beyond your teachings as her master. Tharan leaves the ship to present his invention to the scientists' summit. By the gleam in her eyes, Nadia may have had her fun on Tython in more things than discussing the Jedi code with other Padawans... but certainly not sex with player character. Tharan sure didn't - he failed to present his invention because of his love for Holiday.

 

Edited March 14, 2013 by Rabenschwinge

[Bomyne]

Thank you for asking. My point was simply that there is clearly implied sexual content in the game. It is implied through multiple ways, and therefore "sex isn't in the game" is either false or mere technicality, depending on what your definition of "is" is.

There's no implied sex. The game deliberately leaves it open and up to your imagination. Recently, in a cutscene, my character and his companion went off somewhere "private". I can tell you for a fact that all they did was talk about their future as the game cut to black.

[Jeca_Cutrer]

Enough. Really. Move along. I regret even saying something.

 

I was trying to appeal to common sense. I forgot the Internet killed it.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Jeca_Cutrer

[Tatile]

Let's get back to what this thread is actually about:

 

Pelting Bioware: Austin offices with rainbow glitter.

 

Let's be optimistic for a second and assume that Bioware releases companion romances.

 

Having done the Quinn romance with my Warrior, I don't imagine he'd be more forthcoming with a male interest (he's a bit restrained, sometimes its comes across as being not very bright), unless of course some of his hesitation is due to some arse-backwards upbringing about women being "delicate flowers". I'm not a delicate flower, I'm the Emperor's Wrath, and you can stick your confinement where the sun don't shine.

 

So, regardless of whether Quinn has had a somewhat chauvinistic upbringing or not, I'd imagine Male Warrior would still receive much of the same formal approaches, and would also likely need to "chase" Quinn in much a similar manner. Perhaps Quinn might feel more relaxed around Male Warrior than he does around the Warrior and would be more receptive, but I still get the feeling you'll spend many of the early conversations going "Be glad you're cute, Quinn, because sometimes you're thick as two short planks."

 

Ideas? Additions?

 

It would be nice for people who have done the other OGRA's to give their ideas of how the SGRA versions might be different, but still in-keeping with the companion we know. I'd do more, but I've only romanced Anrdonikus and Torian as well and have found them somewhat forgettable. I wouldn't be able to write about them without the liberal application of Youtube, at any rate.

[Rabenschwinge]

That is extremely hard to say for me because there is no gay companion romance I truly want at this point (the most thinkable would be Kira, but while my knight does love her, it's rather in a sisterly way than a romantic one), and I never play male characters, so I can't compare the romances.

 

As a knight and the one who has actually grown up with the Jedi order, my knight would definitely want to be courted and maybe get some of this "delicate flower" stuff you hate so much about Quinn - there is more to my knight than being an ethically untouchable killing machine, after all. And I would clearly want to start the relationship only after she becomes knight herself. A flirt option before that might be a smile or a simple gesture in response to a compliment.

 

I don't know the romances for Mako and Nadia either, but I don't think it would make much of a difference. The relationship is too clearly defined by other circumstances.

 

Kaliyo is just the way she is, I suppose, so it wouldn't make much of a difference either. I don't know Temple enough to say anything about her, I always used Vector as damage dealer companion. I could think of a few things I'd like to do with Watcher 2 after the end of the IA storyline, starting with taking her to Voss... but she's not a companion, so it's not quite what you asked for.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Rabenschwinge

[Bomyne]

Having done the Quinn romance with my Warrior, I don't imagine he'd be more forthcoming with a male interest (he's a bit restrained, sometimes its comes across as being not very bright), unless of course some of his hesitation is due to some arse-backwards upbringing about women being "delicate flowers". I'm not a delicate flower, I'm the Emperor's Wrath, and you can stick your confinement where the sun don't shine..

Not all companions would be SGRA. Quinn certainlly does not sound like the type. Neither would Doc or Corso. Vette is definitely OGRA only. Mako seems a little more likely from what I've seen of the BH story (Only up to level 23). Elara and Jorgan, definitely not. Ashara, no.

 

I haven't played enough of the other classes to guess though, but I'm guessing only a very small handful of existing companions would meet SGRA.

[jovianus]

Not all companions would be SGRA. Quinn certainlly does not sound like the type. Neither would Doc or Corso. Vette is definitely OGRA only. Mako seems a little more likely from what I've seen of the BH story (Only up to level 23). Elara and Jorgan, definitely not. Ashara, no.

 

I haven't played enough of the other classes to guess though, but I'm guessing only a very small handful of existing companions would meet SGRA.

 

What do you mean 'does not sound like the type'?

 

And what do you mean 'meet SGRA'?

 

 

Stereotyping aside, given that apparently SGRA is going to be confined to 'that crazy weekend on Makeb' I don't really see that it will matter much.

[Anglvamp]

Not all companions would be SGRA. Quinn certainlly does not sound like the type. Neither would Doc or Corso. Vette is definitely OGRA only. Mako seems a little more likely from what I've seen of the BH story (Only up to level 23). Elara and Jorgan, definitely not. Ashara, no.

 

I haven't played enough of the other classes to guess though, but I'm guessing only a very small handful of existing companions would meet SGRA.

 

Gonna have to disagree with most of this, no offense. I really think Quinn could go both ways, hardly learned anything about him and every time my SW flirted, he just seemed uncomfortable with it. Now you could say that it was his position and protocol but I think he could be easily re-written to include an SGRA . Though I could just be reading too much into it, hehe.

 

Vette, I'm not sure about, but I don't think she could be completely written off as straight only, Again, just my opinion. Really hoping Mako would be made available if they ever decide to, dunno what it is, but she just so loveable, hehe.

 

That's about all I know of the romances so far. Most companions share so little about themselves, I really think any of them could be added as SGRA. Or BW could always add totally new companions, but it would always feel rushed to me, like the companions you get after chapter 2. Would love to see them all expanded, but I can't imagine that happening any time soon.

 

^.^

[Tatile]

Not all companions would be SGRA. Quinn certainlly does not sound like the type. Neither would Doc or Corso. Vette is definitely OGRA only. Mako seems a little more likely from what I've seen of the BH story (Only up to level 23). Elara and Jorgan, definitely not. Ashara, no.

 

I haven't played enough of the other classes to guess though, but I'm guessing only a very small handful of existing companions would meet SGRA.

 

So, you're saying that current romances options not listed (Adronikus, Torian, Vector, Kaliyo, Temple, Pierce, DS Jaesa - for the Imp side, don't know anything about Pubs) would be SGRA or that you have yet to play those classes and form your own opinion about them? Because, as much as I appreciate your opinion, it is only that and what I was doing (which you seem to have taken some exception to, as I wrote about Quinn) was for fun. Not trying to force or colour anyone's opinion.

[Jeca_Cutrer]

There's the overly optimistic possibility that an expansion could introduce whole new companions who are meant to be good fits for SGR.

 

And why hasn't anyone mentioned Bowdar as an option? That's folicle-ism!