Encourage World PvP - make Expertise ONLY work in WarZones

[Drudenfusz]

Yet you would force everyone in the Open World to grind WarZones just to prevent them from being annihilated? Don't you realize the double standard you want to enforce? You don't mind slaughtering PvErs in Open World combat (which takes place in the PvE world!) because you have such an EXTREME gear advantage, but oh NOES *you* can't have that extreme disadvantage yourself?

I play on a PvP server, so it is a PvP world! Players who start playing there know that. They can just do Warzones to learn how to play in PvP and get there gear there, just like the PvE players don't want to have noobs in their nighmare mode operations around. Sure, BioWare could give people something for doing open world PvP, but at least you get your PvP recruit gear to start with.

 

But like I said, I wouldn't mind if BioWare gives me and every other PvP player PvE gear that is of the same tier their PvP gear currently is, but I am pretty sure you will see then plenty of complaining from the PvE players that the PvP players could then just be as good as they are in operations. That'S why the whole separtaions is there in the first place, to make sure that PvE players have to grind for their stuff and PvP players have to grind for other stuff. Want to do both, go grind both!

[Drudenfusz]

But it's NOT wrong for you to come into a PvE environment (like Section X or Black Hole) and kill that entire group by yourself not because you have any skills but simply because you have Expertise gear? That is what is just wrong; that is why expertise should not function outside of WarZones.

 

Could it act in a different way? CERTAINLY! People in this thread presume I am suggesting the same disparity in reverse. Not at all. I just want the "I win!" expertise advantage to be NULLIFIED outside of WarZones. Replace it with something else that brings gear to equal value, I'm all for that!

 

But it's wrong to give WarZone players such a tremendous, unfair advantage in the Open World over players who may simply not enjoy warzones. But then again, I guess they're just targets for you to gank with no sweat?

I think it was an pretty equal fight, me against a whole group, I think they could have won (it was very close anyway). Open world is never fair, look I play Republic, there are more Imps on my server, and they can still gang me up, so I am fine with having a little advantage because I grinded endless warzones, which also teached me how to deal with all the classes. So, what next, you want that PvP players actually getting a penalty just because they are better trained in doing PvP. Get a grip, open world PvP will never be fair. Even with gear equalzisation between PvE and PvP, the players who grinded for their gear would still have an advantage over those who just hit 50.

[getdownsb]

Then, with all due respect, you should elect to not participate in Open World PvP.

 

Open World PvP takes place in the open world - the PvE world. It is counterproductive that WarZone players can have such a significant and unfair advantage in the open world. It DISCOURAGES Open World PvP which makes no sense.

 

Expertise should be for Warzones only. If you only do warzones, that's fine - your expertise should serve you well. But you shouldn't have that overwhelming advantage when PvPing in the Open World.

 

Ok, remove all instancing and make it so that you can be attacked by players while trying to down that precious boss (AI) you're so craving. Then I'll be happy to grind PvE gear and come destroy your whole raid night.

 

See what I did there? o_O

Edited January 12, 2013 by getdownsb

[Drudenfusz]

Ok, remove all instancing and make it so that you can be attacked by players while trying to down that precious boss (AI) you're so craving. Then I'll be happy to grind PvE gear and come destroy your whole raid night.

 

See what I did there? o_O

Reminds me of all those sweet tears of PvE players I drank with the whole Nightmare Pilgrim thing. Haven't seen threads about PvP players interfering with Dreadtooth so far, maybe I should spend my weekend in Section X and kill PvE players tring to down him. Man, this game would be so much more fun if all operations would be open world like those world bosses. And of course the only way to get better gear should be from such open world sorces, no warzones, no flashpoints, no operations, just the world bosses!

[Whitelightr]

OP, you missing one huge flaw in your line of reasoning though. YOU are under the belief that PvP/PvP Stats=Warzone, and should be kept solely in that area.

 

PvP=Player vs Player! Whether its a warzone, Outlaw's Den, or just a duel in the middle of no-where. PvP is not limited to warzones only. What you are asking for would be the same as me saying "You're top tier PvE gear gives you too big of an advantage in PvE. All your nifty bonus stats shouldnt count!".

 

Dont get me wrong, I hate any type of PvP stat. All it does is discourage new players from starting PvP. But its here to stay, get used to it.

[DarkSaberMaster]

OP, you missing one huge flaw in your line of reasoning though. YOU are under the belief that PvP/PvP Stats=Warzone, and should be kept solely in that area.

 

PvP=Player vs Player! Whether its a warzone, Outlaw's Den, or just a duel in the middle of no-where. PvP is not limited to warzones only. What you are asking for would be the same as me saying "You're top tier PvE gear gives you too big of an advantage in PvE. All your nifty bonus stats shouldnt count!".

 

Dont get me wrong, I hate any type of PvP stat. All it does is discourage new players from starting PvP. But its here to stay, get used to it.

 

I am sooo glad somebody gets it lol. 5 stars for you.

[Maxtofunator]

OP, you missing one huge flaw in your line of reasoning though. YOU are under the belief that PvP/PvP Stats=Warzone, and should be kept solely in that area.

 

PvP=Player vs Player! Whether its a warzone, Outlaw's Den, or just a duel in the middle of no-where. PvP is not limited to warzones only. What you are asking for would be the same as me saying "You're top tier PvE gear gives you too big of an advantage in PvE. All your nifty bonus stats shouldnt count!".

 

Dont get me wrong, I hate any type of PvP stat. All it does is discourage new players from starting PvP. But its here to stay, get used to it.

 

This is literally the best point made thus far. PvP= player vs. player. Once you enter an open world PVP area, you are no longer in PVE territory, you have entered the realm of PVP, and you should expect there to be PVPers.

That seems to me to be a really simple point. I would never go and do an operation in my PVP gear, and you should never enter a PVP environment with PVE gear. Ever.

 

I honestly don't see how that makes things fair at all, you want us PVPers to not have an advantage, but you are mad at us for wanting to have an advantage, you want to do the same thing to us that we do to you?

Do I open world pvp? No, there really isn't a point, however, if they ever implement anything so that I can, you bet your behind that I will be all over that, because PVP is my favorite thing, so I should not be penalized for doing what I love and trying to continue to do what I personally love in a different environment.

[Antipodes]

Operations = PvE gear

Warzones = PvP gear

 

In the open world, PvE gear has an advantage in killing mobs, while PvP gear has an advantage in killing players.

 

Your solution is selfish in that you want PvE gear to better than PvP gear in PvP in the open world. How about just removing expertise all together and allowing people that do Operations and Warzones to get the same quality gear?

[Prettyevilish]

If you were fighting in an Operations, I'd agree.

 

But - wanna do Outdoor PvP in a PvE area? Get some PvE gear. You shouldn't get that advantage over people who either didn't like or didn't want to grind warzones. If you come to their house, you should have to play by THEIR rules.

 

So, yeah, expertise should not function in Open World. It will encourage more open world encounters and discourage ridiculous gank fests.

 

I do so hope you see the irony of telling a PVPer that he needs PVE gear to .... PVP. You do see it, don't you? You're just being intentionally obtuse in order to make your BiS super awesome against real PVPers, right?

 

If you want to PVP (open world or otherwise, it may be in a PVE environment, but it's still against another player, so it's PVP) then buck up and get some PVP gear like the rest of us. You want to PVP, you do it by PVP rules.

[WarCan]

OP, you missing one huge flaw in your line of reasoning though. YOU are under the belief that PvP/PvP Stats=Warzone, and should be kept solely in that area.

 

PvP=Player vs Player! Whether its a warzone, Outlaw's Den, or just a duel in the middle of no-where. PvP is not limited to warzones only. What you are asking for would be the same as me saying "You're top tier PvE gear gives you too big of an advantage in PvE. All your nifty bonus stats shouldnt count!".

 

Dont get me wrong, I hate any type of PvP stat. All it does is discourage new players from starting PvP. But its here to stay, get used to it.

 

All I see are people on the PvP side saying HoloTweed wants to REVERSE the advantage you get in Open World PvP. Which seems to me to be a skewed way of looking at what he keeps saying. Which is to REMOVE the extreme ADVANTAGE expertise gives one in Open World. Level the playing field.

 

Open World can be considered both PvP and PvE (on a PvP server). Let's face it though, where do MOST missions happen? Open world. You're fighting NPCs. However, PvP can happen in many locations. So, if someone is happily doing their missions and is wearing just their PvE gear, they are at the mercy of someone else wearing their PvP gear and is just out hunting for other (enemy) players.

 

Expertise just gives too much of an advantage in these situations. If it were just SKILL from PvPing all of the time, so be it. But, it's not. THAT is the problem with Expertise in Open world.

[Mr_Elotes]

The only way for it to be equal footing is to give everyone, no matter what AC you have, the same exact stats. Meaning everyone gets, lets say for instance, 1500 (aim, cunning, strength, willpower) mainstat, 1500 endurance, 200 power, and 35% crit and 75% surge and 105% accuracy. All this occurs once you enter the open world pvp area and are notified of the change.

 

Also make all attacks do the same amount of damage no matter the AC and give everyone 5 attacks and thats it. Also to keep it simple no healers are allowed, just dps to keep it fair and balance. If everyone does the exact same dmg and has the same amount of stats, we should all be on equal footing. Almost forgot, everyone fights naked so that there is no unfair advantage of the color of armor or that a persons boots are too shiny or that they have hoods to cover their heads.

[WarCan]

The only way for it to be equal footing is to give everyone, no matter what AC you have, the same exact stats. Meaning everyone gets, lets say for instance, 1500 (aim, cunning, strength, willpower) mainstat, 1500 endurance, 200 power, and 35% crit and 75% surge and 105% accuracy. All this occurs once you enter the open world pvp area and are notified of the change.

 

Also make all attacks do the same amount of damage no matter the AC and give everyone 5 attacks and thats it. Also to keep it simple no healers are allowed, just dps to keep it fair and balance. If everyone does the exact same dmg and has the same amount of stats, we should all be on equal footing. Almost forgot, everyone fights naked so that there is no unfair advantage of the color of armor or that a persons boots are too shiny or that they have hoods to cover their heads.

 

What you espouse is how warzones should be.

 

Let it come down to SKILL and TACTICS, not GEAR, as to who wins (or is better).

[Drudenfusz]

All I see are people on the PvP side saying HoloTweed wants to REVERSE the advantage you get in Open World PvP. Which seems to me to be a skewed way of looking at what he keeps saying. Which is to REMOVE the extreme ADVANTAGE expertise gives one in Open World. Level the playing field.

 

Open World can be considered both PvP and PvE (on a PvP server). Let's face it though, where do MOST missions happen? Open world. You're fighting NPCs. However, PvP can happen in many locations. So, if someone is happily doing their missions and is wearing just their PvE gear, they are at the mercy of someone else wearing their PvP gear and is just out hunting for other (enemy) players.

 

Expertise just gives too much of an advantage in these situations. If it were just SKILL from PvPing all of the time, so be it. But, it's not. THAT is the problem with Expertise in Open world.

The problem is that just removing the expertise from the PvP gear wold make the raiders best open world PvP players, because they would have then the best gear. I don't see how that is levelling the playing field. Why should raiders be the best in PvP, when they do nothing for it? Why do you think a PvP stat was created i the first place? In a game with stats on gear, regardless what gear, it will always have an impact and will never be pure skill based (not even GW2 is pure skill based, because people who have no clue what stats are supporting which build still going to suck there). So, if you want to remove expertise, either remove all stats from the game (not going to happen), or give PvP players gear that is equal to the operation gear (which would make the elitist raiders unhappy that some PvP players get from warzones gear that it as good as their top gear).

[HoloTweed]

The problem is that just removing the expertise from the PvP gear wold make the raiders best open world PvP players, because they would have then the best gear. I don't see how that is levelling the playing field. Why should raiders be the best in PvP, when they do nothing for it? Why do you think a PvP stat was created i the first place? In a game with stats on gear, regardless what gear, it will always have an impact and will never be pure skill based (not even GW2 is pure skill based, because people who have no clue what stats are supporting which build still going to suck there). So, if you want to remove expertise, either remove all stats from the game (not going to happen), or give PvP players gear that is equal to the operation gear (which would make the elitist raiders unhappy that some PvP players get from warzones gear that it as good as their top gear).

 

I see you talking about "elitist raiders" without recognizing that the majority of comments here are from "elitist PvPers" who can't bear the thought of not having an EXTREME gear advantage in the Open World.

 

Expertise stats were developed so raiders could not come in and dominate WarZones the same way Expertise players couldn't come in and dominate Operations. But in a place where both co-exist - the Open World - there needs to be a different mechanic in place so everyone can enjoy the Imperial/Republic conflict from equal footing.

 

Let's take a step back and really look at this... and realistically state the true analogous components - Operations and WarZones. NOT Operations and Open World Planets.

 

I'm not advocating putting PvP players at a disadvantage in the Open World, but I AM suggesting they should NOT have the Expertise advantage there, which gives them such an overwhelming dominance over non-Expertised players.

 

Open World PvP happens (on PvP servers of course) whenever Imperial and Republic players have mutual mission areas. Pre-50 this poses no problem because Expertise does not come into play (not so surprisingly, pre-50 WarZones are considered overwhelmingly to be much more fun than post-50 WarZones for this very reason). But Post-50...?

 

Take Section X and The Black Hole. Open World areas. What are the rewards for completing missions in these areas? Daily and Black Hole commendations. What can you buy with those? NON-EXPERTISE GEAR. So WHY should a player be forced to grind WarZones and wear Expertise Gear in areas that have nothing to do with Expertise? That's where the HUGE discrepancy comes in.

 

We've seen someone in this very thread talk about a GROUP of people barely being able to take him down due to his incredible Expertise advantage. This serves only to DIMINISH the fun of Open World PvP, which everyone on a PvP server should embrace, look forward to, and find new ways of INCREASING.

 

I don't think stats should be equalized in Open World. I think levels should matter in the same way they do pre-50. I don't have a problem with Expertise translating a different way in open world so that folks who have chosen WarZones over Operations can be competitive. But look at the double standard displayed here in this thread! PvP players saying they will unsub the second they are required to do operations to get competitive gear but in the next second telling PvE players in the Open World that they HAVE to endure the WarZone grind if they want to withstand WarZone player attacks IN THE OPEN PVE WORLD. If THOSE players said they would unsub if they had to get Expertise gear, the WarZone players would call them CareBears and tell them to roll on an non-PvP server. It's an elitist mentality!

 

My suggestion here is to even the playing field in the Open World. (Not make all stats the same... or to make WarZone players suffer the other side of the disadvantage they seem to relish over the non-Expertise geared players.) Remove the tremendous advantage Expertise gives in the Open World. Sure, find another way to alleviate the imbalance that would swing the other direction, but make it so type of armor doesn't matter (in that way!) in Open World.

 

That way, no player in a PvE area has to reduce his PvE effectiveness in order to fend off PvP attacks or try to switch armors quick and instead LOOK FORWARD to Open World conflict. Everyone would have fun this way. Thus World PvP would be ENCOURAGED instead of feared or avoided or used as a ganking exercise.

[WarCan]

The problem is that just removing the expertise from the PvP gear wold make the raiders best open world PvP players, because they would have then the best gear. I don't see how that is levelling the playing field. Why should raiders be the best in PvP, when they do nothing for it? Why do you think a PvP stat was created i the first place? In a game with stats on gear, regardless what gear, it will always have an impact and will never be pure skill based (not even GW2 is pure skill based, because people who have no clue what stats are supporting which build still going to suck there). So, if you want to remove expertise, either remove all stats from the game (not going to happen), or give PvP players gear that is equal to the operation gear (which would make the elitist raiders unhappy that some PvP players get from warzones gear that it as good as their top gear).

 

You're still doing it. Thinking that anyone is saying that PvP geared players should NOW be dis-advantaged in Open World PvP/PvE. Stop doing that. That is not what is being said.

[SebastianII]

You're still doing it. Thinking that anyone is saying that PvP geared players should NOW be dis-advantaged in Open World PvP/PvE. Stop doing that. That is not what is being said.

 

I just read this whole thread. Thats EXACTLY what you are saying. The minute they remove expertise and equalize the stats we will have another thread just like this one with pve players complaining that pvpers that only warzone get the same gear that they had to spend weeks waiting to drop off a boss, or until such a person was able to get the pattern for said armoring/hilt/barrel, and said pve player who doesn't want to warzone is at a distinct disadvantage. Realize for just a moment that what you're championing will cause an even bigger problem. This whole thread will not yeild a solution and, at this point, just shut it down.

[WarCan]

I just read this whole thread. Thats EXACTLY what you are saying. The minute they remove expertise and equalize the stats we will have another thread just like this one with pve players complaining that pvpers that only warzone get the same gear that they had to spend weeks waiting to drop off a boss, or until such a person was able to get the pattern for said armoring/hilt/barrel, and said pve player who doesn't want to warzone is at a distinct disadvantage. Realize for just a moment that what you're championing will cause an even bigger problem. This whole thread will not yeild a solution and, at this point, just shut it down.

 

You didn't read anything, it appears. Same comment from a PvP-only perspective. Don't want to lose your HUGE advantage. THINK "we" are trying to flip-flop it. Thinks any thread discussing this is a threat and it should be shut down and hidden away.

 

You couldn't be further from the truth. I don't know how many times "we" have to say the same thing before "you" understand what is being asked for. I PvP too, so it's not like I don't have a frame of reference here.

[Drudenfusz]

You're still doing it. Thinking that anyone is saying that PvP geared players should NOW be dis-advantaged in Open World PvP/PvE. Stop doing that. That is not what is being said.

Maybe I do this because I know what I am talking about? Without expertise on PvP gear the best open world gear would be the operations gear, that means that the PvE players would get an advantage then over the PvP players. I don't see how anyone in the threads says anything about how to avoid that issue, and as long as there would be this issue I am against this. Further, I still don't see why player who do operations are allowed to use there gear to the full extent in the open world, while the players who earn their gear in warzones are become second class players.

[WarCan]

Maybe I do this because I know what I am talking about? Without expertise on PvP gear the best open world gear would be the operations gear, that means that the PvE players would get an advantage then over the PvP players. I don't see how anyone in the threads says anything about how to avoid that issue, and as long as there would be this issue I am against this. Further, I still don't see why player who do operations are allowed to use there gear to the full extent in the open world, while the players who earn their gear in warzones are become second class players.

 

Again, you keep thinking "I" want alll PvPers to become second class players in Open World PvP. What you don't say is that currently PvE vs PvP -geared players in Open World ARE second class. Even if they are wearing the best PvE gear out there. They get roflstomped by someone wearing their PvP gear. What's fair about that?

 

All I want is some FAIRNESS here.

[Drudenfusz]

Again, you keep thinking "I" want alll PvPers to become second class players in Open World PvP. What you don't say is that currently PvE vs PvP -geared players in Open World ARE second class. Even if they are wearing the best PvE gear out there. They get roflstomped by someone wearing their PvP gear. What's fair about that?

 

All I want is some FAIRNESS here.

So, go grind some warzones instead of operations. Do some PvP to get PvP gear. Better than doing PvE do get the best PvP gear, which is what would happen if no expertise would be on the gear one gets from warzones. So it is fair, that people who actually do some PvP get the best PvP gear.

[AboB]

After reading the thread, I am inclined to agree that the OP's suggestions, are in fact, quite silly.

I can't elaborate any further, or better than others have in this thread, but I feel that adding my dissent onto the pile this time is worth it. Best of luck with your wish, OP, but I would not support it's implementation.

[toyfanatic]

Holo Tweed you have the same mentality as the people who wrote the threads about eliminating speed runs through HM FP's. Does it really matter? How many times were you ganked on ilum this week?

1.) Since launch people have been using pvp gear in pve. My entire guild encourages all up and comming 50's to get atleast the WH MH and OH. It maybee a long time since you win the drop at HM denova.

2.) People do warzones in pve gear, and they win! Campaign and Hazmaat is vastly superior to recruit and battlemaster. Hell the pvp officer in my guild doesn't even wear pvp gear in warzones and he has most kills /medals in a match. Expertise does not make skill. A skilled player can defeat the guy in elite war hero.

3.) The irony is the game gives away a free pvp set. You preach on equality in non war zone pvp and the game Dev's came up with free gear for all 50's. Whats the issue? Did you wish they gave away elite WH ,that was already pre -optimised and augmented? For free off course..........errr no.

4.) Do you thinks its unfair that a Elite War hero equiped player can do all ops except for HM TFB and NM& HM Denova? What is the problem? Oh I forgot you wish pvp gear to be useless outside of a war zone. Not all players have the time or guild membership to be carried through a ops. It is totaly cool that new people get to try to raid and contribute to their guild by using pvp gear. Not every one is a elitist and has 3-4 augmented and optimised sets of gear.

5.) Most of your arguements have over looked a fundmental issue - every one gets free sets of lvl 50 pvp and pve gear right when they hit 50. If there was such a issue( and there isn't- world pvp is almost extinct in game) every one could cc' and re-engage with either pvp or pve gear. Oh I forgot , your opinoins are about forcing a choice not letting some one make their own.

6.) Errr.. hate to break it to you but I am sure the open world pvp'er will be wearing pvp gear. Most of the pvp community want open world to happen and succeed.

7.) OP just re-roll on a RP server, then there will not be any issues. Can't get ganked unless you are flagged. So no un-authorised pvp will happen.

Edited January 12, 2013 by toyfanatic

[SithVeritas]

Then, with all due respect, you should elect to not participate in Open World PvP.

 

With all due respect, people should stop being lazy and start working on getting their PvP gear together instead of trying to make BioWare diminish the value of an entire part of the game just because they don't like it.

 

Like the other guy said, I can't raid in WH, you don't get to kill me.

Someone's just a little upset he got ganked in 3 seconds despite the fact he ran HMs and ops every day.

 

I guess by '' Encourage World PvP '' he meant '' Encourage ME to World PvP ''

Edited January 12, 2013 by SithVeritas

[DarkSaberMaster]

Lol. Extreme advantage? You get a free set of Recruit Mk-2 that gives you stats equivalent to Battlemaster gear and has expertise at about 980. And you can even augment it if you like. So what is this huge advantage that PvP players get?

[Mr_Elotes]

You want equality? Then like I said in a previous post, make everyone equal in stats and dmg. No healing. No defense capabilities. No buffs of any sort. Just 4-6 buttons to press to use as attacks and nothing else. Everyone has the SAME amount of attacks, that do the EXACT amount of damage across all AC. Hell give everyone the same animation on the attacks so there are no differences there either. Everyone has the same amount of hit points and they use the same system to burn/gain energy. "You have now entered Open World PVP, your UI has been changed to recognized this. You are now limited to using these 6 attacks and all stats and animation are the same with everyone who has entered no matter the Advanced Class you have chosen. Enjoy"

 

Maybe make open world pvp only a planet like Ilum was but with a choice. When you exit the ship, a choice pops up. "You are about to enter Open World PvP. You may choose to enter the PVE version where expertise is not used or you may choose the PVP version where expertise is used. Choose and enter at your own risk. Enjoy!" Unless everyone is EXACTLY the same, there will never be any equality of any kind and people will find something that, to them, is over powered and needs to be changed.