Encourage World PvP - make Expertise ONLY work in WarZones

[HoloTweed]

Can't find any justification for expertise working in the Open World. It runs counter to encouraging Open World PvP.

 

Some players don't enjoy WarZones. They shouldn't be forced to play them and have two sets of armor so they can also be competitive in Open World PvP (which occurs in a primarily PvE environment).

 

I understand that PvPers want expertise so that raiders won't have the "best" gear in WarZones. I get that. But in the Open World, where both players who enjoy Ops and players who enjoy WZs can clash, expertise should not come into play - this way everyone can enjoy Open World PvP without one group having an unfair and unnecessary advantage...

 

This should hold true in any Open World scenario, so when Ilum comes back online, WZ players don't have any gear advantage.

[Xienive]

No thank you.

 

 

I only do PVP and since I am not on a PVP server I only do WZ's. I don't want to have to start doing high end PVE content to be able to do open world PVP.

 

Although I do appreciate somebody trying to come up with ways to encourage world PVP.

[Royox]

NO. I can't kill Hard Mode operation Bosses with my WH gear....so you can't kill me with your Dreadguard gear.

 

Wanna do Outdoor pvp? Get some PVP gear.

[HoloTweed]

No thank you.

 

 

I only do PVP and since I am not on a PVP server I only do WZ's. I don't want to have to start doing high end PVE content to be able to do open world PVP.

 

Although I do appreciate somebody trying to come up with ways to encourage world PVP.

 

Then, with all due respect, you should elect to not participate in Open World PvP.

 

Open World PvP takes place in the open world - the PvE world. It is counterproductive that WarZone players can have such a significant and unfair advantage in the open world. It DISCOURAGES Open World PvP which makes no sense.

 

Expertise should be for Warzones only. If you only do warzones, that's fine - your expertise should serve you well. But you shouldn't have that overwhelming advantage when PvPing in the Open World.

[HoloTweed]

NO. I can't kill Hard Mode operation Bosses with my WH gear....so you can't kill me with your Dreadguard gear.

 

Wanna do Outdoor pvp? Get some PVP gear.

 

If you were fighting in an Operations, I'd agree.

 

But - wanna do Outdoor PvP in a PvE area? Get some PvE gear. You shouldn't get that advantage over people who either didn't like or didn't want to grind warzones. If you come to their house, you should have to play by THEIR rules.

 

So, yeah, expertise should not function in Open World. It will encourage more open world encounters and discourage ridiculous gank fests.

[Svevin]

I disagree, and I love both PvE and PvP. But a compromise could be reached; Open World areas could give a slight expertise buff to PvE geared characters based on the quality of their gear, just not as much as you'd get for being fully PvP slotted. Sorry, but we put in the legwork in WZ's because we WANTED to be good at fighting other players.

 

But all of this is just tomfoolery. We don't even know that there will be more Open World PvP, beyond the Illum revamp and Outlaw's Den.

[oofalong]

I like this suggestion. I have BiS PvE on a few toons, but still my default response is to run away when I see a player of the opposite faction. I am too squishy without any expertise in open world PvP, and I haven't grinded enough to get better gear. Even if I had better PvP gear since I am questing in a PvE scenario I am not going to have it equipped.

If I knew that I was more evenly matched with the player coming at me, I would certainly be more inclined to fight instead of run.

[HoloTweed]

I disagree, and I love both PvE and PvP. But a compromise could be reached; Open World areas could give a slight expertise buff to PvE geared characters based on the quality of their gear, just not as much as you'd get for being fully PvP slotted. Sorry, but we put in the legwork in WZ's because we WANTED to be good at fighting other players.

 

But all of this is just tomfoolery. We don't even know that there will be more Open World PvP, beyond the Illum revamp and Outlaw's Den.

 

Perhaps if Open World areas gave MAJOR buffs in expertise (or Open World equaled out everyone's expertise) but your legwork in WarZones should NOT give you an advantage in the Open world... that's just license to gank those who are there already. Your expertise should NOT operate outside of WarZones.

[Svevin]

Perhaps if Open World areas gave MAJOR buffs in expertise (or Open World equaled out everyone's expertise) but your legwork in WarZones should NOT give you an advantage in the Open world... that's just license to gank those who are there already. Your expertise should NOT operate outside of WarZones.

 

By that logic, people in PvE gear should have their stats debuffed in WZ down to PvP set mainstat values. PvE gear has great mainstat and endurance values that PvP gear can't match, due to balancing issues with Expertise. The idea that Expertise shouldn't work in Open World gives an obvious advantage to those who have PvE gear. Is that what you're asking for? The ability to face stomp PvP geared people because they are in an Open World PvP zone?

 

Or, to put it another way: People in PvP gear should get a mainstat and endurance boost when entering HM and NM Ops. Your legwork in Ops and Flashpoints shouldn't give you an advantage in instanced PvE.

[HoloTweed]

By that logic, people in PvE gear should have their stats debuffed in WZ down to PvP set mainstat values. PvE gear has great mainstat and endurance values that PvP gear can't match, due to balancing issues with Expertise. The idea that Expertise shouldn't work in Open World gives an obvious advantage to those who have PvE gear. Is that what you're asking for? The ability to face stomp PvP geared people because they are in an Open World PvP zone?

 

Or, to put it another way: People in PvP gear should get a mainstat and endurance boost when entering HM and NM Ops. Your legwork in Ops and Flashpoints shouldn't give you an advantage in instanced PvE.

 

Your attempt at parallel logic makes no sense. For one, people in PvE gear get CREAMED if they go to WarZones. That's my point. Expertise should be WarZone ONLY. Open World PvP happens in PvE areas, so those people should not be at a disadvantage to people who choose to play WarZones.

 

You try to equate Open World (planetary) PvP with Operations, and it's not a valid comparison. Open World is just what it says - anyone can be there and people who run WarZones should NOT have such an incredibly lopsided, unfair advantage over other players outside of a WarZone.

 

I"m not suggesting that people with Campaign Gear should be able to compete in WarZones... they SHOULDN'T. But WarZones should NOT be considered the same as Open World areas. There would be MUCH more Open World PvPing if expertise were rightly taken out of the equation.

 

It's amusing to see WarZone PvPers get up in arms at the thought of facing the same (or less) disadvantage in Open World areas as non-WarZone players face at their hands right now. What, turnabout isn't fair play?

 

Open World should favor Open World players. That would encourage World PvP. For those who run WarZones - don't worry, you get a set of Tionese gear for free. If you really want to participate in Open World PvP it wouldn't kill you to run a few HM Fp's to get some better gear. That's what you suggest non PvP players do to compete in WarZones. Outside of a WarZone, your expertise should NOT come into play. It invalidates regular gear and gives an unfair advantage outside of your WarZone arenas.

[Svevin]

Alright, let me approach this differently. If you roll on a PvP server, knowing full well that you could be ganked by fully BiS'd PvP players, and want to contend in Open World WITHOUT PvP gear...I'm sorry. That's ridiculous. The server has it right there in the name. It's PvP based. Now, in an Open World PvP zone, such as Outlaw's Den? Same story. You are in a PvP area, and entering it is the same as entering a WZ: Expect fully BiS'd PvP geared players. The only way to appease everyone in this is to take Expertise out of the game and make PvP gear have the exact same stats as PvE. Since we know BioWare won't do that...well...sorry, but Expertise governs how well you do in PvP, Open World or WZ.

 

The comparison I made between WZ's and Ops is that those are the places where the respective gear types are most important.

 

What you're asking for is a massive gear advantage over the PvP crowd while you are, quite frankly, in their world. Just like the massive gear advantage you have over us when we go on Operations.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Svevin

[HoloTweed]

Alright, let me approach this differently. If you roll on a PvP server, knowing full well that you could be ganked by fully BiS'd PvP players, and want to contend in Open World WITHOUT PvP gear...I'm sorry. That's ridiculous. The server has it right there in the name. It's PvP based. Now, in an Open World PvP zone, such as Outlaw's Den? Same story. You are in a PvP area, and entering it is the same as entering a WZ: Expect fully BiS'd PvP geared players. The only way to appease everyone in this is to take Expertise out of the game and make PvP gear have the exact same stats as PvE. Since we know BioWare won't do that...well...sorry, but Expertise governs how well you do in PvP, Open World or WZ.

 

The comparison I made between WZ's and Ops is that those are the places where the respective gear types are most important.

 

What you're asking for is a massive gear advantage over the PvP crowd while you are, quite frankly, in their world. Just like the massive gear advantage you have over us when we go on Operations.

 

No. Open World is NOT "their world." They should not have any advantage there. WARZONES are their world.

 

I figured you'd pull the "when you roll on a PvP server..." which usually precedes "you should expect level 40's to kill level 20's" and clearly you want that same kind of advantage to persist past 50. You obviously LOVE to steamroll other players and cannot comprehend not having that advantage, much less (horrors!) being on the receiving end.

 

As this is the suggestion area, I'm suggesting that expertise no longer have any value outside of WarZones... which is really the way it SHOULD be. If that means PvP Warzone players have to level up some non-Expertise gear to Open World PvP - SO BE IT.

[Svevin]

No. Open World is NOT "their world." They should not have any advantage there. WARZONES are their world.

 

I figured you'd pull the "when you roll on a PvP server..." which usually precedes "you should expect level 40's to kill level 20's" and clearly you want that same kind of advantage to persist past 50. You obviously LOVE to steamroll other players and cannot comprehend not having that advantage, much less (horrors!) being on the receiving end.

 

As this is the suggestion area, I'm suggesting that expertise no longer have any value outside of WarZones... which is really the way it SHOULD be. If that means PvP Warzone players have to level up some non-Expertise gear to Open World PvP - SO BE IT.

 

Okay, look, I can tell this is working you up, so I'm going to point out again that this is all tomfoolery: we only have PvP servers and one PvP area (currently) in-game. None of this matters, and BioWare isn't going to take either of our opinions into consideration, either mine (which would make everyone equal), or yours (which places a massive advantage on PvE players in a PvP zone/server).

 

Now, I know you have no reason to believe me (I'm just a devil's advocate spewing Nautolan face on the internet!) but I hate steamrolls. I like Huttball matches that go down to the last second 1 to 1, with each team fighting hard to get the ball for the win. I get bored and annoyed when we string together six goals in two minutes. I like Civil Wars where we fight for every single node. My favorite Novarre Coast was one where my team turned the fight around at 2% left on our side! One of the reasons I loved WAR is that entering a PvP zone too low for you turned you into a 1 HP chicken. Why do you think my first suggestion was one that would even the playing field? At this point, it's you asking for the ability to steamroll, by denying PvP geared folks the one benefit of PvP gear: doing better against other players.

 

Last thing: Do you really think all PvPers want to do is WZ? We want Open World so bad, our collective unconscious desires are nearly potent enough to become sentient and write the code by itself. If we went your way, one of the biggest demographics interested in Open World PvP would be locked out of it by choosing to PvP instead of raid! Does that really seem logical to you?

[WarCan]

EXPERTISE is not needed, at all, imo.

 

Just make PvP vs PvE gear similar enough and equal in overall stats. And, above all, same-level geared players should be at relatively equal footing. One shouldn't have an advantage simply because of one very bad stat (expertise).

 

It should be, if you chose survivability over DPS, then that becomes the factor. Expertise skews things too much.

[Petnil]

it´s not like the gear shouldn´t work in open world. BiS pvp gear would still be alot better than everyone exept the endgame raiders. And the pvp crowd would most likely have a skill advantage since they have pvp´ed alot more than the rest of the comunity.

 

If not ignoring expertise make it into some other stat in open world. A mix of secondary stats, endurance and mainstat. Even in relatively good gear i wouldn´t attack a flagged person of other faction not only because i dont care much for pvp, but also i know if they run flagged, chances are they pvp alot, and they might even have pvp gear on. That just the same as me not having a chance even if i get the first blow.

[Drudenfusz]

Can't find any justification for expertise working in the Open World. It runs counter to encouraging Open World PvP.

 

Some players don't enjoy WarZones. They shouldn't be forced to play them and have two sets of armor so they can also be competitive in Open World PvP (which occurs in a primarily PvE environment).

 

I understand that PvPers want expertise so that raiders won't have the "best" gear in WarZones. I get that. But in the Open World, where both players who enjoy Ops and players who enjoy WZs can clash, expertise should not come into play - this way everyone can enjoy Open World PvP without one group having an unfair and unnecessary advantage...

 

This should hold true in any Open World scenario, so when Ilum comes back online, WZ players don't have any gear advantage.

Without Expertise the PvE players would suddenly be much better than the PvP players in open world PvP, since they get the better equipment then. Expertise is just there to give us PvP players the edge in our field of interest. The only other option would be give PvP and PvE players the same gear, but as long as this doesn't happen, I want to keep the expertise.

[Mowermanx]

Without Expertise the PvE players would suddenly be much better than the PvP players in open world PvP, since they get the better equipment then. Expertise is just there to give us PvP players the edge in our field of interest. The only other option would be give PvP and PvE players the same gear, but as long as this doesn't happen, I want to keep the expertise.

 

I know a lot of people that have 2 sets of gear, in fact, I don't think I know anyone who hasn't....

[Drudenfusz]

I know a lot of people that have 2 sets of gear, in fact, I don't think I know anyone who hasn't....

I don't have a PvE set, I was only once in an operation in SWTOR, and that was because some friends pulled me through it. With my PvP gear I should be able to get through the normal mode, maybe even hard mode operations without too much trouble, but the gear that drops there would still be not be as good as my PvP gear currently is, and I am just not that interested in PvE to grind for that gear. So, I don'T have a good PvE set, and I am fine just using my PvP gear for everything in this game. The moment I would have to grind PvE gear to beat people in open world PvP would be the moment I cancel my sub (which runs from early access on, never took a break, yes I play SWTOR for over a year and have seen just one operation).

[HoloTweed]

I don't have a PvE set, I was only once in an operation in SWTOR, and that was because some friends pulled me through it. With my PvP gear I should be able to get through the normal mode, maybe even hard mode operations without too much trouble, but the gear that drops there would still be not be as good as my PvP gear currently is, and I am just not that interested in PvE to grind for that gear. So, I don'T have a good PvE set, and I am fine just using my PvP gear for everything in this game. The moment I would have to grind PvE gear to beat people in open world PvP would be the moment I cancel my sub (which runs from early access on, never took a break, yes I play SWTOR for over a year and have seen just one operation).

 

You would quit the second your extreme advantage was taken away, yet you expect that everyone else in Open World should have to grind PvP WarZones to get all of the expertise needed just to SURVIVE, much less be competitive... and you don't see anything wrong with that at the very core of the mechanic?

 

Expertise should be used to let WarZone players be the best in WarZones.. .it should NOT allow for automatic "I Win!" abilities in the Open World outside of those warzones.

 

So as far as you're concerned, everyone either needs to do it your way, with that built in advantage, or you're taking your ball and glove and going home?

 

Wow.

[HoloTweed]

Without Expertise the PvE players would suddenly be much better than the PvP players in open world PvP, since they get the better equipment then. Expertise is just there to give us PvP players the edge in our field of interest. The only other option would be give PvP and PvE players the same gear, but as long as this doesn't happen, I want to keep the expertise.

 

But you shouldn't HAVE an edge. It should be equal footing. That you play well in Warzones should not give you a SIGNIFICANT gear advantage over players in the Open World. You're forcing EVERYONE to grind warzones just to prevent them from being ganked in the Open World areas where 95% of all PvE occurs.

[DarkSaberMaster]

Perhaps if Open World areas gave MAJOR buffs in expertise (or Open World equaled out everyone's expertise) but your legwork in WarZones should NOT give you an advantage in the Open world... that's just license to gank those who are there already. Your expertise should NOT operate outside of WarZones.

 

So you want your leg work in HM FP's and OP's to give you an advantage over those in PvP who worked for their PvP gear? Lol. Wow. I have seen it all now.

[Drudenfusz]

You would quit the second your extreme advantage was taken away, yet you expect that everyone else in Open World should have to grind PvP WarZones to get all of the expertise needed just to SURVIVE, much less be competitive... and you don't see anything wrong with that at the very core of the mechanic?

 

Expertise should be used to let WarZone players be the best in WarZones.. .it should NOT allow for automatic "I Win!" abilities in the Open World outside of those warzones.

 

So as far as you're concerned, everyone either needs to do it your way, with that built in advantage, or you're taking your ball and glove and going home?

 

Wow.

I don't mind to have equal good gear than the PvE players, so I don't mind that advantage that much (even though it is funny to kill an entire group of level 50 Imps in Section X just by yourself). But the moment PvE players would get better gear to fight, without them ever having shown any dedication for PvP would just be wrong.

 

So, if you take away Expertise, give all PvP players the gear equivalent of the PvE gear, then we are talking. otherwise you just punish PvP players for being just PvP players and give the PvE players just an addvantage.

 

So, Instead of calling me out on want to keep an advantage, think about not giving us PvP players just a disadvantage, so that every stupid PvE player can win because they would suddenly have the better gear to do that as well.

[Drudenfusz]

But you shouldn't HAVE an edge. It should be equal footing. That you play well in Warzones should not give you a SIGNIFICANT gear advantage over players in the Open World. You're forcing EVERYONE to grind warzones just to prevent them from being ganked in the Open World areas where 95% of all PvE occurs.

So what, your Idea would force me to grind operations? I prefer to do PvP to get PvP gear.

[HoloTweed]

So what, your Idea would force me to grind operations? I prefer to do PvP to get PvP gear.

 

Yet you would force everyone in the Open World to grind WarZones just to prevent them from being annihilated? Don't you realize the double standard you want to enforce? You don't mind slaughtering PvErs in Open World combat (which takes place in the PvE world!) because you have such an EXTREME gear advantage, but oh NOES *you* can't have that extreme disadvantage yourself?

[HoloTweed]

I don't mind to have equal good gear than the PvE players, so I don't mind that advantage that much (even though it is funny to kill an entire group of level 50 Imps in Section X just by yourself). But the moment PvE players would get better gear to fight, without them ever having shown any dedication for PvP would just be wrong.

 

But it's NOT wrong for you to come into a PvE environment (like Section X or Black Hole) and kill that entire group by yourself not because you have any skills but simply because you have Expertise gear? That is what is just wrong; that is why expertise should not function outside of WarZones.

 

Could it act in a different way? CERTAINLY! People in this thread presume I am suggesting the same disparity in reverse. Not at all. I just want the "I win!" expertise advantage to be NULLIFIED outside of WarZones. Replace it with something else that brings gear to equal value, I'm all for that!

 

But it's wrong to give WarZone players such a tremendous, unfair advantage in the Open World over players who may simply not enjoy warzones. But then again, I guess they're just targets for you to gank with no sweat?