Is it time we apologise?

[Tiaa]

This forum still hasn't changed but that shouldn't really be a surprise.

 

Sure, lots of people jumped on the bandwagon to hate this game. But not me, I am a MMO player. MMOs have been my genre since 1999 and I would not have had a problem at all with this game if it was NOT labeled as a MMO. Sadly, it was.

 

I know a bad MMO when I play one. I bought War Z the first day it came on Steam. I must have deleted that game in 30 minutes and sent a request in for a refund. Should I apologize to the War Z staff for a game that was OBVIOUSLY a scam?

 

This game, unusually, breeds some of the most illogical people I have ever come across in a MMO. I was going across this youtube video of "Taugrim" or whatever his name is. He had a comment that was upvoted in response to a person, not the exact quote but the tune of, "You don't really think Bioware made this game JUST to make money do you?". I dare say he sould probably stick to the PvP commentary instead of giving "advice" on market strategy.

 

------

 

So...after I quit for some time, I've subscribed for a month and updated my game.

 

Not because I wanted to check SWTOR out again and see if the transition to "F2P" made this game any better, but because a friend on Steam was telling me to play with him. My partner also decided to try it out and she hated SWTOR soon as she logged on.

 

I found it hard to force myself to play this game again, as to me, this game is everything wrong with MMOs but I tried...I spent hmmm...maybe $100 dollars plus on the Cartel Market before I jumped to conclusions about the garbage I knew it would be (just like GW2 box system). Getting like 5 C2-N2s skins that I can't even send to other characters...mainly junk...

 

...I was quite disturbed to see most of the SAME bugs here since like...beta or better yet...this is the only game I found where almost ANYTHING you do can get bugged out.

 

But anyways...I unsubscribed again (might check the game out later, not likely) and the points I am trying to make is that:

 

This forum is toxic because everything about this game is "toxic". This game was created as...well a ANTI-SOCIAL MMO. Broken promises...BLAH.

 

Apologetic consumers are really the ultimate sheep who probably make games worse.

 

Why should consumers apologize about this, dare I say MEDIOCRE MMO? We shouldn't. We, THE CONSUMERS, should get the apology. But instead, we have Bioware staff making subliminal comments about how their fans basically don't know what they want and how random people on forums hurt their creativity.

 

Or maybe they just aren't good at making games? Maybe they just saw SWTOR as another "job"....rather than a passionate experience.

 

You know why indie devs are doing great at the moment? Because they have hunger. They have the infatuation of making a great game even THEY enjoy.

 

You think this is the ONLY game that gets negativity?

 

Is everyone working at Bioware 7 years old and needs a pat on the back for doing the opposite of what they were supposed to?

 

Bioware had "all the money in the world" and I assume most of it went to the top bosses bonus checks.

 

I'm sorry but I personally hope this game is shut down to make way for a possible REAL development team and a REAL Star Wars IP game.

 

...this game doesn't even feel like Star Wars.

 

...TLDR.

 

On a positive note...Bioware phone service is great.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Tiaa

[lasstn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_World#Development

http://www.vg247.com/2011/01/10/ea-partners-to-co-publish-the-secret-world/

 

Co publish, what is it you people dont understand about that....PUBLISH not develop, not buying shares, not anything but PUBLISH.

 

EA got no say whatsoever in how TSW is run.

 

Jesus effing christ

[sstanks]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_World#Development

http://www.vg247.com/2011/01/10/ea-partners-to-co-publish-the-secret-world/

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_publisher

[smexymage]

Wrong. The phrase "the customer is always right," is idiotic. 99.99999999% of the time the customer has no idea what he/she is talking about and does not really know what he/she really wants. Listening to what the customer wants has more often than not caused companies to go out of business not allowed them to thrive.

 

The perfect example of this is Apple. Apple does not have any market analysis. Over the last decade, Apple has effectively told the population, "we do not care what you think you want. We will give you want we think you want." And consumers keep on buying anything and everything Apple puts on the market.

 

I'm sorry, I must have missed the bit where I actually said that. And the customer doesn't know what they want? Are you serious? Any evidence that suggests that is probably down to all the marketing that gets thrown in peoples faces trying to sell this, that and the other. Companies go to customers trying to sell them stuff rather than customers going to the companies, maybe that's why they are not sure, because some **** tried to almost force them to buy something via a cold call.

Edited January 11, 2013 by smexymage

[Eurynamous]

There is a fine line between being constructive in your criticisms and being a complete crybaby ******e. Nobody needs to apologize for giving good, constructive feedback. That feedback doesn't include name calling, making demands, threatening to leave or hints of hostility and downright dickery.

 

The forums paint a picture of self entitlement and disrespect, to the devs and peers alike. From what can be seen, these rude people hide their terrible communication skills behind a few over used facts. "I paid for it, I own it, I can treat it however I want". That same logic is often used by animal abusers when they are confronted. I put that there just for comparison.

 

What's missed is that regardless of how angry you are over a product, you still have to properly communicate it. You can say you're emotional state, but you can't use that as an excuse to attack anything. If you do, you're not doing it right.

 

Peer feedback and reinforcement is the proper means. So when you write your feedback, you introduce the successes and weaknesses. You positively reinforce the successes because they're the strengths, then you leave suggestions on the weaknesses and how to improve.

 

Not bash it to hell and back without any kind of proper feedback. That's just venting and being a disrespectful child. Which if any of you were from the 80's or older, your parents would have slapped you on the *** for even thinking you could talk like that.

 

Being an ******e isn't a personality quirk. It's a behavioral choice. You don't need to be one and you shouldn't be. If you were, you owe an apology to Bioware and the people you treat like ****.

 

But if you're giving good, strong feedback that is presented professionally, keep doing it. You're doing everyone a service.

[Nydus]

I'm not in to the whole apologizing for the actions of a whole "community" even if I'm in it and it sucks. Which it does in this case, but I've been a huge fan and supporter of this game and all my critiques or questions to the support staff have been answered in a timely and appropriate manner and this has engendered in me an increased loyalty to the game and appreciation of the people who designed it and maintain it.

 

So I like your post re: look in the mirror. Think about whether you've said anything stupid and/or immature and/or inane and /or whiny and realize you don't have a character above and beyond what you might have said, your character is defined BY what you say and how you act and adjust accordingly IF NECESSARY. Actually, do that for everything in life .

 

Customers have every right to voice their opinions, and the administrators of this forum are literally paid to listen to those opinions so don't feel sorry for them if you are jerk. Feel sorry for yourself and the people who aren't paid to interact with you. Like me .

 

- Ord'os

Edited January 11, 2013 by Nydus

[V-Serp]

Not because I wanted to check SWTOR out again and see if the transition to "F2P" made this game any better, but because a friend on Steam was telling me to play with him. My partner also decided to try it out and she hated SWTOR soon as she logged on.

 

But anyways...I unsubscribed again (might check the game out later, not likely) and the points I am trying to make is that:

 

This forum is toxic because everything about this game is "toxic". This game was created as...well a ANTI-SOCIAL MMO. Broken promises...BLAH.

 

Apologetic consumers are really the ultimate sheep who probably make games worse.

 

Why should consumers apologize about this, dare I say MEDIOCRE MMO? We shouldn't. We, THE CONSUMERS, should get the apology. But instead, we have Bioware staff making subliminal comments about how their fans basically don't know what they want and how random people on forums hurt their creativity.

 

Or maybe they just aren't good at making games? Maybe they just saw SWTOR as another "job"....rather than a passionate experience.

 

You know why indie devs are doing great at the moment? Because they have hunger. They have the infatuation of making a great game even THEY enjoy.

 

You think this is the ONLY game that gets negativity?

 

Is everyone working at Bioware 7 years old and needs a pat on the back for doing the opposite of what they were supposed to?

 

Bioware had "all the money in the world" and I assume most of it went to the top bosses bonus checks.

 

I'm sorry but I personally hope this game is shut down to make way for a possible REAL development team and a REAL Star Wars IP game.

 

...this game doesn't even feel like Star Wars.

 

Similar situation as you, I think I will be cancelled again and just go F2P, but it's really the decision of two people I play with (or would, but instead play maybe once or twice a week with for a few hours). They will be preferred members now so they should be okay.

 

The problem with a company like EA, and why they aren't successful as others in the field, is they only think of games as widgets. Their defenders always insist that's how business works.

 

Except, it's not. Not the top ones. The top businesses all exist to make money, true, but the way they go about doing it is in areas they take pride in and enjoy. Steve Jobs loved technology, that's why he drove Apple to the heights he did. Bill Gates loves the software component of PCs, so his company was designed for software. Carl Icahn loves the takeover aspect and that's why he just does what he does. Icahn doesn't really contribute or build anything, he just makes money, the other two build things.

 

If you want to just look at something from a pure business standpoint and try to drive profits, you need to do so with just a product. It still won't work, but you can get away with it better. Sell aluminum or something. Basic Materials is probably a sector that does well just purely looking at business principles. Maybe. Maybe you can also do well in utilities.

 

But something with a human element like games? No it doesn't work. Creativity and quality can not be gauged by metrics and numbers. You have to enjoy what you're doing and take pride in it. EAware doesn't, and that's why you get what we get.

[Rafaman]

One more thing... I personally don't need an apology from BW//EA or who'm ever is in charge of "managing" the community.

 

I don't need my hand held. I don't want a personal relationship with the devs. I don't need the warm and fuzzy that everything I say is gospel. And I certainly don't want or need a cadre of Community Support teams to manage my armchair quaterback development suggestions.

 

I'm sorry... but it amazes me that others need so much nurturing. In my view, BW/EA has a fiduciary obligation with me. Yes, I said fiduciary. They have an obligation to manage the property that is SWTOR to my benefit. And if they don't, I'm gone. It's that simple. It's no a million man march. Just deliver content and maintain the game BW. Don't apologize for patches or foibles about down time etc. etc. Just deliver.

[Nydus]

I'm sorry... but it amazes me that others need so much nurturing. In my view, BW/EA has a fiduciary obligation with me. Yes, I said fiduciary. They have an obligation to manage the property that is SWTOR to my benefit. And if they don't, I'm gone.

 

I agree with you (I am a capitalist after all so how can I not). But obligations of a company do not stretch to employees having to take insults. And that is really the only sort of behaviour one would have to apologize for. I'm certainly not apologizing for a community because there is no such thing. Just individual people sitting at their computers who are responsible for their own individual behaviours. I do not feel I have any association with you all; and any association you might think you have with me is a figment of your imagination (wow, you can probably tell my political leanings now!).

 

For example, I don't owe BioWare anything because any negativity I've expressed has been done so in an "adult" way. i.e. stated a specific problem, got a response, and then decided to accept or not.

 

And to be honest, BioWare has actually responded to any problems I've communicated to them in a very polite and timely manner. They've actually done things to help me they are not "obligated" to do. It has been in my case a good customer service experience and this just amplifies my appreciation of a good game.

 

- Arcada

[Roalmo]

..

I don't need my hand held. I don't want a personal relationship with the devs. I don't need the warm and fuzzy that everything I say is gospel. And I certainly don't want or need a cadre of Community Support teams to manage my armchair quaterback development suggestions. ...

 

Hmm.. but the dev's need their hands held with "apologies"? They need warm and fuzzies to prove they are good guys, so only post warm and fuzzies or they'll leave and not post? They need a Cadre of supporting fanbois only to continue communicating with us?

 

Weird...

Edited January 11, 2013 by Roalmo

[justiceface]

One more thing... I personally don't need an apology from BW//EA or who'm ever is in charge of "managing" the community.

 

I don't need my hand held. I don't want a personal relationship with the devs. I don't need the warm and fuzzy that everything I say is gospel. And I certainly don't want or need a cadre of Community Support teams to manage my armchair quaterback development suggestions.

 

I'm sorry... but it amazes me that others need so much nurturing. In my view, BW/EA has a fiduciary obligation with me. Yes, I said fiduciary. They have an obligation to manage the property that is SWTOR to my benefit. And if they don't, I'm gone. It's that simple. It's no a million man march. Just deliver content and maintain the game BW. Don't apologize for patches or foibles about down time etc. etc. Just deliver.

 

Effectively communicating to your clients when it comes to mistakes, new releases, changes in policy that affect clients, etc. is business 101. So I'm not sure what you're talking about?

[chewyonthis]

When I compare EA's other MMO TSW to that of SWTOR I see such a difference in attitude from the staff from Funcom in comparison to Bioware. They listen to customers, and are quick in response to deal with any issue whatsoever. Bugged out boss? No problem, less than a minute they have came and reset him. I wish EA would give Funcom this game.

 

now that's saying something!

[United_Strafes]

No sorry contrary to popular belief a game doesn't need to sell hundreds of millions of copies to make a profit not to mention a subscription, the game was an absolute mess at launch and the blame lies with the devs period. We got a host of bugs, ability delay, muddled textures and no content for anyone in a long 5 month period while they worked on F2P. Some of the things like ability delay and the textures took ENTIRELY too long to fix.

 

People left because of these reasons and more, the devs made the decisions not us.

Edited January 11, 2013 by United_Strafes

[chewyonthis]

One more thing... I personally don't need an apology from BW//EA or who'm ever is in charge of "managing" the community.

 

I don't need my hand held. I don't want a personal relationship with the devs. I don't need the warm and fuzzy that everything I say is gospel. And I certainly don't want or need a cadre of Community Support teams to manage my armchair quaterback development suggestions.

 

I'm sorry... but it amazes me that others need so much nurturing. In my view, BW/EA has a fiduciary obligation with me. Yes, I said fiduciary. They have an obligation to manage the property that is SWTOR to my benefit. And if they don't, I'm gone. It's that simple. It's no a million man march. Just deliver content and maintain the game BW. Don't apologize for patches or foibles about down time etc. etc. Just deliver.

 

This game has had its chance to 'deliver', and all its come up with is gear recolors and and a vulgar cash shop. you realy think the mass complainers and people who have left are all annoyed because the devs don't write to them personally? no its because we are treated like mushrooms,fed **** and kept in the dark. there are people saying that funcom handles their games better than EA has on SWTOR , omg just omg.

Edited January 11, 2013 by chewyonthis

[ImperialHippy]

Wow this has got abit out of control. Try and stay civil folks, though interesting to hear everyones view on this.

 

All I was origannly suggesting is that we have been abit over the top and offensive in our complaints, not that we should not complain at all, just that we should treat these forums as a place were the developers can actually get useful information from us, not just be abused by us. Some of the comments on here and in other threads are not helping anyone, not you, not Bioware and certainly not the game.

 

If you want to help, post useful critiques, don't whine about not getting the game you thought you should get.

 

Thanks, and sorry if this thread has offended anyone, not my intention, just thought some humility was needed on these forums.

[V-Serp]

Wow this has got abit out of control. Try and stay civil folks, though interesting to hear everyones view on this.

 

All I was origannly suggesting is that we have been abit over the top and offensive in our complaints, not that we should not complain at all, just that we should treat these forums as a place were the developers can actually get useful information from us, not just be abused by us. Some of the comments on here and in other threads are not helping anyone, not you, not Bioware and certainly not the game.

 

If you want to help, post useful critiques, don't whine about not getting the game you thought you should get.

 

Thanks, and sorry if this thread has offended anyone, not my intention, just thought some humility was needed on these forums.

 

I think you need to look up humility in the dictionary, and then we can see you try to justify how forcing your opinions on people and ordering apologies can be considered a display of humility.

[ImperialHippy]

I think you need to look up humility in the dictionary, and then we can see you try to justify how forcing your opinions on people and ordering apologies can be considered a display of humility.

 

ok thats just harsh mate, look at the title to the thread, its a question. I was simply saying as a member of the community i feel its time to apologise, do you? see question. i was asking not forcing. Why the hell do people have to flame so much? if you didnt agree you could have just not replied, and if you dont like the game dont play it!

[Cheezfriend]

I am certainly not apologizing for the thread i created in my sig. The issue still hasnt been addressed. If anything Hickman and his band of not so merry men owe the APAC community an apology.

[V-Serp]

ok thats just harsh mate, look at the title to the thread, its a question. I was simply saying as a member of the community i feel its time to apologise, do you? see question. i was asking not forcing. Why the hell do people have to flame so much? if you didnt agree you could have just not replied, and if you dont like the game dont play it!

 

Right, telling an entire group of people that they are "vocal" make "nasty complaints" and are performing "slander" is a perfectly humble, non-derogatory or pressuring method of starting a discussion and posing a question. Further, insinuating said group is responsible for the firing of people and "owes" an apology is a perfectly innocent and altruistic activity.

 

Get off your high horse and get over yourself. If you don't like my posts don't read them, and don't post threads.

[Nichos_Ketra]

Wow, someone's mad. Denying a person's freedom of speech because you don't like what they're saying? Harsh. BioWare may not have been saints, but we haven't exactly been good to them, either... All the whining and public ragequitting really did a number on this game, whether people are willing to admit it or not.

 

Considering your hostility, I'm not going to waste any more words than this on you at this time.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Nichos_Ketra

[LogicalPremise]

ok thats just harsh mate, look at the title to the thread, its a question. I was simply saying as a member of the community i feel its time to apologise, do you? see question. i was asking not forcing. Why the hell do people have to flame so much? if you didnt agree you could have just not replied, and if you dont like the game dont play it!

 

You said two direct statements in your OP. People are pissed because they both essentially state complete fabrications of reality while implying the community is at fault and that nothing the developers have done is wrong.

 

What if, in our tantrums, we actually caused the people who have given us such great games over the years to pack it in. If I were a developer I would certainly feel dismayed and disheartened when you try and give your fans what they want only to get in thrown back in your face.

 

This developer has given us great games in the past. The people who did so are GONE. DA2 was failure. ME3 turned out so badly they had nationwide protests. SWTOR devs have made so many statements that they haven't even attempted to come through on that having faith in them at this point is beyond naive.

 

They have zero right to feel 'dismayed and disheartened' when they have not only made very little effort to give fans what they wanted, but actively ignored feedback from the beta and implemented a cash store that rips people off, They have no right when they have CS that ignores thousands of players who can't even log in and dismisses the incompetent server architecture that causes rollbacks and glitches. They have no right when they promise guild expansions, super space projects, and tons of end game content on a regular schedule and give us garbage like the Chevin event, a guild bank that barely works (no guild ships, lol) , a bunch MORE space missions on rails that don't even work and they nerfed into the ground and an Ancient Hypergate WZ that glitches you out of your comms half the time.

 

Spare us. If they're feelings are hurt I hope the people responsible for said trainwreck get depressed and quit, anyone they are replaced with won't lie directly to my face at least.

 

Your second statement is even worse.

 

I think we owed them more than that and it sadness me that we couldn't trust them enough to steer this game, and their company, in forever improving directions. Sure there are always going to be bugs and rough patches but didn't we owe it to them to support them as they tried to figure these things out?

 

We did trust them to steer the game in improving directions. They have not been. If you think they have kindly explain why more than a million players quit. People will say "people leave WoW all the time", but this is not WoW, and WoW didn't lose 70% of it's player base at any point in time. That is catastrophic failure due to

 

- ignoring the bugs and glitches in game

- ignoring suggestions and improvements from beta and on the forums

- ignoring PVP issues , from WZ lag to gearing to Ilum Opnn World PVP

- ignoring guild requests and ideas for improvement

- ignoring problems with the GTN, problems with quests not updating

- ignoring SGR and RP communities

- sidelining people with too many servers until server pops crashed, then merging them all into super servers and yet somehow still managing to ignore APAC.

 

In the time the game has been live, you know what improvements they've achieved?

 

- Managed to fix most, but not all of the myriad bugs in their OP's and FP''s, most of which were reported months and months ago.

- Managed to fix, for some people, ability lag, after the community screamed at them for 20,000 posts and refused to listen to their lies about it was all our own fault

- Added a handful of FP and OP's, and a half-decent WZ

- Added two events, one of which sucked and one of which was okay but too short

- Manged to fix and tweak a bunch of minor crap while still ignoring major issues.

 

If this is supposed to be improvment -- well, there's a reason I'm F2P now.

 

You don't get to tell us how to feel, how to respond, or what opinions to hold. You don't get to tell us "if you don't like it leave". You people are the most arrogant, blind, and hubris-filled people on the forums, so convinced you must be right that everyone else MUST be a Bioware hating troll.

 

I've put you on ignore, since nothing that comes from your posts is anything I can't read in a PR Statement. I sincerely hope you aren't playing on Harbinger.

[Petnil]

The OP may have a point, but i can look myself in the mirror without feeling bad. Loads of posts with valid critique have been made in a way that people shouldn´t feel the least bit sorry about. I agree that when i comes to flamng the dev like some may have done you might want to step back and look at yourself. Maybe even say sorry.

 

The thing is when people say things like "EAware just doesn´t care, they never read forums" it´s because of things like the latest state of the game where we were told that the game is dooing amazing and not one complaint was comented. No mention of APAC server situation, or the increasing number of disconnect everyone is having. Ok maybe not everyone but it´s happening to a large number of players. For all i know it could just as well be everyone.

 

When EAware feel like the state of the game is so amazing it just makes my heart sink and i loose a little more hope that swtor will be what it could be.

[AgentJacen]

Okay BioWare, I apologize... FOR NOTHING! BioWare barely look at the forums, they ignore everything we say. Threads with "First BioWare Post" are rare. BioWare and EA are just greedy. I mean, look at F2P. I've never seen such F2P so restrictive in an MMO. And I'm talking from personal experience here. It's time BioWare apologized for ignoring the issues of this game! And don't tell me not to play the game, I like this game but I am tired of being ignored by BioWare.

[Rafaman]

Hmm.. but the dev's need their hands held with "apologies"? They need warm and fuzzies to prove they are good guys, so only post warm and fuzzies or they'll leave and not post? They need a Cadre of supporting fanbois only to continue communicating with us?

 

Weird...

 

Hmm... not sure what you are alluding to here. But it works both ways. We pay, they get paid. So the devs don't need hand holding or fanbois to communicate. They do a good job they get paid. They don't and its all gone. It is a simple concept. Not sure why some of you would make this into another he said she said argument.

[Rafaman]

Effectively communicating to your clients when it comes to mistakes, new releases, changes in policy that affect clients, etc. is business 101. So I'm not sure what you're talking about?

 

Simple. Economics 101. As a customer, I vote with my dollars. So... if you don't get the communication/support that you need? Spend your money elsewhere. Much more effective than the endless QQ we see in these forums that bury the rare nugget of insight.

 

I can't make it any simpler for you, should you not know what I'm talking about.