It was a tandem of Raando & 'Athena that slapped that team together.. though I like to think my insistent harping on 'Athena got the ball rolling. Thanks for the queues!

I use WASD, with my pinky/ring/middle finger for movement.. so my hand is still in the natural hand placement.. I prefer WASD in this position because my index finger is free.. but ymmv.

And you don't have any alts? I'm impressed, though maybe participation in lots of PvE will do that. I really only PvP, and really only enjoy the one character. I have 33.5 days played on that character, and 4 alts each at ~20, and am only at Legacy Lvl 33. As for the rest of you, Bioware has been moving away from time = win. The buffs might be some kind of status symbol in PvE, but in PvP it makes a huge difference. I can't say I appreciate having to invest time in characters I don't enjoy so that I can compete on the same level in PvP. I understand why those who have earned the buffs would like to keep that edge.. because they appreciate time = win.

Why do I need to put in the work? I don't enjoy leveling alts. The repetitive planet missions that I've already completed are annoying. I too have a fulltime job and a family, and would rather spend time playing the character I enjoy in PvP than leveling alts that I don't enjoy. Why should time = win? I thought Bioware was getting rid of that with the new WH gear changes!

Good luck getting anywhere near legacy level 50 on a single character.. I think I'm at ~35, though to be fair I rarely do PvE dailies.

Oh the snubbage.. I dps'd NM KP once and NMPilg 2x! Sheesh!

Bumpity! Anyone?

Bioware - I hate leveling alts.. let alone to need to level 3 of them sufficiently to unlock class buffs via completion of Chapter 2. I have been playing for over a year now, and haven't been able to force myself to take an alt beyond level 21. I would greatly appreciate the ability to use the Cartel Shop to unlock these buffs to alleviate my misery. I would imagine that there are many others out there who want the same, and I can't think of a solid reason as to why this unlock should not be available. Thoughts?

Here we will just have to agree to disagree. My stance is that as a DPS class, doing more damage to a target means bigger burst and less uptime for that target. The EHP increase is a bonus. You've yet to prove this point numerically. I've shown that using PvE/PvP hybrid my kill times are faster. They were still faster under your calcs with 10k heals. Not much faster using those numbers, but these differences are only amplified while under bloodthirst, expertise buff, vindicator set bonus, etc. You should take your own advice. The slope on expertise is quite low compared to crit and surge, even well past their softcaps. Their damage bonus is a dependent relationship, and thus not as straightforward as expertise, but it does indicate that some amount of crit and surge are more valuable point for point than expertise. Going by your argument we should just stack mainstat, since its DR is even less noticeable than expertise right? Of course you are. Everyone on the forums is in their server/faction's top guild dontcha know?

But the numbers we've both crunched show that the PvE/PvP hybrid lives just as long as the pure PvP if not longer, and yet does more damage to any target, whether the target are wearing 0 exp or 1396 exp. So what is the issue here? Oh I see.. you don't want to spend money or time for minor increases. Better skip that EWH grind then.. it'll take too long! This thread isn't about how much money or time is required to min/max, but what stats result constitute min/max. A soft cap is the practical maximum to raise a stat. Expertise begins to lose value in the 900s, which is why PvE armorings that trade 33 mainstat for 50 expertise add more damage! Expertise is point for point always worth less than mainstat, crit, or power (hence why you should be using power or crit crystals). You are awfully defensive. Enjoy running around in your max expertise wondering how the top teams are destroying you. Keep sticking those fingers in your ears and singing that song.

The formula you quoted is exactly what we are applying.. not sure what you are getting at here - multiplication and division are commutative (it doesn't matter in what order they are applied - we'll still get the right answer).. so we can look at the damage number before applying your opponents expertise. I've shown that if you have the right stat ratios, you can hit a higher expertise target for more relative damage (dmg per opponent hp).

Mitigation is important on damage soaking classes.. DPS need to focus on maximizing DPS. If you can increase your DPS while keeping your EHP in the same neighborhood, or even increasing it.. its a no brainer. 3% mitigation or 3.7% more health.. as a DPS main, I know what I'm going to choose. And if you multiply those numbers by ability damage multipliers, the time difference amplifies. If you are trying to maximize damage, why the hell does the cost matter? Again, time difference is more drastic with ability damage multipliers, and PvE/PvP hybrid still holds the edge. And again you prove yourself ignorant. Expertise has diminishing returns and thus a softcap. Small amounts of expertise increase your PvP damage bonus drastically. As you gain more and more expertise, this gain decreases incrementally. The key to maximizing damage is finding the point at which the damage added from an amount of additional expertise is equivalent to the damage added from extra mainstat/power/etc, while keeping endurance in mind. Just to prove my point: w/ 120 exp (2x pvp relics are BiS in pvp since you can't use activateds) Dmg Boost = 2.94%, Dmg Red = 2.86% : Primary Avg Dmg = 1166.9 1166.9 * 1.0294 = 1201.21 w/ 1396 exp Primary Dmg Avg = 1034.7 1034.7 * 1.253 = 1296.5 The pure PvE gear hits more weakly even before damage reduction is taken into account. They also have less a significantly smaller EHP (21370 / (1 - .0286) = 21999 compared to 24371). If you are focusing on DPS, the expertise softcap appears to be in the 1000-1100 range, depending on where you want your power, crit, surge, and accuracy. For a tank or a healer, this range will be different, but I can assure you that it will be below 1396 expertise. Power crystals >>> expertise crystals.

So you get the number wrong, and then blame me for not correcting it? Someone has some issues. I didn't bother looking if you got it wrong because it doesn't really matter. EHP is all that matters, and if I have higher EHP, then I take more damage to kill, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. Again, repeating yourself won't make it true. Looking at them with crit: Crit chance in PvE = 29.54% Crit chance in PvP = 29.54% - 0.87% = 28.67% Surge = 79.90% w/ 1064 exp: Dmg Boost = 20.79%, DR = 17.21% Primary Dmg Avg = 1091.8 1091.8 * 1.2079 = 1318.8 1318.8 * ( (1 - .2954 ) + 1.799 * .2954 ) = 1630.07 w/ 1396 exp (full elite WH + exp crystals): Dmg Boost = 25.30%, DR = 20.19% Primary Dmg Avg = 1034.7 1034.7 * 1.253 = 1296.5 1296.5 * ( ( 1 - .2867) + 1.799 * .2867) = 1593.49 Now hitting each other: w/ 1064 exp 1630.07 * (1 - .2019) = 1300.96 w/ 1396 exp 1593.49 * (1 - .1721) = 1319.25 A difference of 18.29 damage. Now take into account that I have 752.9 more HP than you. It would take you 42 gcd's of primary attack. This number gets smaller with attack multipliers, but is still significant. Now lets look at what happens if you both attack the same target.. another person wearing full expertise gear, cause its so awesome: w/ 1064 exp 1630.07 * (1 - .2019) = 1300.96 w/ 1396 exp 1593.49 * (1 - .2019) = 1271.76 A difference of 29.2 damage, which gets bigger with attack multipliers. How about if you both attack someone wearing 1064 exp: w/ 1064 exp 1630.07 * (1 - .1721) = 1349.53 w/ 1396 exp 1593.49 * (1 - .1721) = 1319.25 A difference of 30.28 damage, which gets bigger with attack multipliers. So again, 1064 expertise HITS ANY TARGET HARDER than someone with 1393 expertise. I understand what you are trying to say, that you deal more damage to a lower expertise geared target than they deal to you. Yes thats true. However, the lower expertise geared target with PvE/PvP hybrid gear has more EHP than you, enough to more than negate the difference in damage. Not only do I hit harder, but I live longer too.

The EHP value already takes damage reduction into account. The 166 simply states that it is more valuable to have 410 hp & -150 exp than not for your survivability. Multiplying damage taken by the change in damage reduction can't be easily compared to the difference in EHP. A rough way to do it is to keep track of how many times you are healed to full and how many times you died in that WZ. Multiply that number by 166 and see how it compares. Okay.. Since I'm at work I'll use my primary damage numbers from AskMrRobot, fully buffed, stimmed, and datacron'd. w/ 1064 exp: Dmg Boost = 20.79%, DR = 17.21% Primary Dmg Avg = 1091.8 1091.8 * 1.2079 = 1318.8 HP = 20203.5 EHP = 20203.5 / (1 - .1721) = 24403.3 w/ 1396 exp (full elite WH + exp crystals): Dmg Boost = 25.30%, DR = 20.19% Primary Dmg Avg = 1034.7 1034.7 * 1.253 = 1296.5 HP = 19450.6 EHP = 19450.6 / (1 - .2019) = 24371.1 This does not take into account crit chance differences (PvE/PvP hybrid has 0.87% more crit than pure PvP from main stat difference). The PvE/PvP hybrid has both more pure damage (22.3 primary, and 0.87% more crit, when multiplied in tooltip damage this can make quite a large difference) and more EHP (32.2) than the pure PvP. Should it be this way? Probably not, but since the release of WH and EWH, expertise has not been tuned and thus PvE/PvP hybrid is stronger. For healing and tanking, the softcap for expertise is likely different.. so your mileage may vary.

I also play a Mara.. and I've calculated the breakpoint to be somewhere between 1000 and 1100 expertise for optimum DPS. I haven't crunched the numbers for tanks, but you'd be looking to maximize your effective health.. so instead of calculating expertise based on damage output, you'd be focusing on the damage reduction side of things. Similarly for healers, you'd need to base your calculations on the healing buff you receive from expertise. I have a feeling that the expertise softcaps for these roles will look like: DPS < Tank < Heals But don't quote me on that.. crunch the numbers!

And once again you fail reading comprehension. I didn't ignore the target hitting you back, in fact I calculated that that guy that is hitting you back has to hit you 11 times (using TT, more if using lower damaged attacks, or taking into account guard/taunt/cc/etc as you wanted to mention) to negate the difference in health. I also showed that the 410 additional health results in more effective health compared to the addtional damage reduction. More effective health means more gcds are needed to kill you. Introducing things like CC/taunt/guard doesn't change this, if anything it makes the case for more effective health stronger! I run into teams that wear full expertise all the time.. its easier to equip the PvP gear that you are told is best for PvP than to calculate breakpoints and softcaps for each stat. They always get rolled. I'll repeat myself: Repeating to yourself that expertise is better doesn't make it true.

I barely even mentioned the crit, and didn't need to include it in the rudimentary calculations to show that a blend of PvE and PvP gear will deal more damage overall. I tried to do this before and you either missed it or ignored it, so I'll try again: Imagine that the two guys, 1393 exp and 1243 exp attack a target that has 1243 exp. The person with 1243 exp hits him harder than the 1393 exp guy, because: bigger number * scalar > smaller number * same scalar. The same thing applies if they were both hitting a guy with 1393 exp, the only thing that changes is the scalar! It takes 10 gcds of spamming TT in the example I gave. Typically people aren't spamming a single attack, and either run out of force, energy, rage, etc in that timeframe. So yes, you are correct, duels and WZs last longer than 15s, but that doesn't mean my point is incorrect. The same basic principle applies, just more slowly. I used the TT example for simplicity. Repeating to yourself that the 410 hp is less useful than the mitigation doesn't make it true. I showed you the numbers regarding effective health. Yes mitigation is important, but so is your overall health pool. Is ~1.27% extra damage reduction worth more than 2% bonus hp? Take a health pool of 20k hp: 1393 exp: 20k / (1 - .2017) = 25053.24 effective health 1243 exp: 20.41k / (1 - .189) = 25166.46 effective health If a competent team focuses you, you will die, and usually in a very short period of time. A larger effective health pool means that just maybe they'll have to spend an extra hit to take you down.. giving your team more time to focus their targets down. As for your statement about pvp teams and expertise: bull. None of the top teams on my server run with max expertise. Mine included. I've made my case as clear as it can be. You either don't get it, or are a quality troll.

Did you even read what I wrote? You say you know how expertise works, and then you completely miss the point. This has nothing to do with whether or not someone has the same expertise value as someone else. This has to do with how much damage one can do to a target. Period. Some amount of trading PvE armorings for PvP armorings and PvE barrels/hilts for PvP barrels/hilts will increase your damage to any target, regardless of their expertise. I gave you the numbers of two people with different levels of expertise (your numbers), attacking the same target. I also gave you the numbers for someone with less expertise attacking someone with more expertise. The math shows that in both cases, the person with less than maximum expertise wins.. to a point. As a damage dealer, it looks like the optimum expertise value for dealing maximum damage is somewhere in the 1000-1100 range. As for the fellow trading power crystals for expertise: that is exactly what you want to be doing. However, it doesn't stop there. PvE armorings and barrels/hilts will increase your damage and your life by more than the amount of displaced expertise. And I do participate quite successfully in Ranked WZs.

You are quite aggressive.. and while correct that opponents expertise does matter for damage reduction, that doesn't change that if you hit THE SAME TARGET with an attack that is higher damage BEFORE expertise is applied, it deals more damage than a lower damage attack. I'll take your previous example: Sure.. when hitting each other, the pvp armored character does 38.87 more damage to the pve armored character. But what happens when they hit the same target.. a weakly geared 1243 exp: w/ 1393 exp: 4434.2 - (4434.2 x .189) = 3596.14 w/ 1243 exp: 4456.06 - (4456.06 x .189) = 3613.82 The person with less expertise hits harder! Again, not even including the additional 0.53% crit mentioned earlier. Also, if you were going 1v1 with that low exp character that had 410 more life than you.. you were hitting him for 38.87 more damage per hit! That means it'll only take you 11 hits to carve through that extra 410 health. But if you are each hitting each other at the same time, and the same number of times.. you won't be living long enough to see that come to fruition (11 * 3557.27 = 39129.97 - I don't think sages can get that much HP). EDIT: Just incase it wasn't clear the 11 comes from 410/38.87=10.55, rounding up since you can't perform half of a hit. This concept is known as effective health. You can see on your character window how much expertise contributes to damage reduction, and compare the tradeoff in health. 410 health on a 20k hp character is ~2%, 50 expertise better give you >2% damage reduction, or you are losing out in effective health. The previous 1v1 example also applies in group PvP or WZs, but instead of 1 person needing to hit you 11 times, now its 5 people hitting you twice (and 1 more hit). If your healer is good enough to keep you up through 39129.97 damage (in order to negate the 410 health), then kudos sir.. you should be on your knees kissing your healer's feet. In addition, expertise does not affect heals received. According to the healing tooltip under expertise on your character window: "Increases health restored when healing a player or companion character who is involved in PvP combat." This applies to heals YOU are casting, and does not boost heals that you are receiving.. which means that if you are solely focusing on dealing damage, you don't care about this percentage on your character. This also means that the softcap for expertise between healing characters and damage characters is different.

Don't worry Randle.. you got it right. Don't feed the trolls.

I'll join in the brawl.. why not

Lol.. I solo'd the corellia heroic last night.

Not even close. I'm in full BM, and with relic/adrenal popped it hits for at most 6k on a light armor target, OVER 3 SECONDS, with a 30 second cooldown, while I'm stuck standing still and you can move, stun me, knock me back, etc. Before the buff, the damage was too low to merit using the ability in any Annihilation/Watchman rotation. Now it is better than 2x vicious slash.

I'm also Imperial, and have had this issue in all 3 warzones. On Monday it failed for me twice in a row in back to back games on Alderaan & Voidstar. It doesn't bother me too much since I need to farm the valor anyway, but I can definitely see the allure of getting my dailies finished more quickly if in a hurry.